Please note that the following transcript is auto-generated and may contain errors.

Erica D'Eramo 0:05

Hello, and welcome to the Two Piers podcast. I'm your host, Erica D'Eramo. And today we have Melissa Keyser joining us. So Melissa is a naturalist of gardener, a photographer, a writer, and an educator, just a overall creative. So throughout her various works, she's always aimed at connecting people to the natural world and fostering community. Today, we have Melissa joining us to talk about the concept of the garden and nature as an analogy for how we can view some of the challenges in our lives and how we can view the way that we build our lives and the way we view ourselves. So I'm really excited to have Melissa joining us. And I think that this will be kind of a different episode than what we often do. And I think it'll be a great conversation.

Melissa, thanks so much for joining us.

Melissa Keyser 1:03

Thanks for having me.

Erica D'Eramo 1:04

Yeah, absolutely. So I gave, you know, like a little bit of your, your bio, but I always want to know, sort of the origin story of my guests. So what, you know, what's the history that sort of brought you to this point in life,

Melissa Keyser 1:19

I always wish I could be one of those people that could be like, I went to school for this. And then I did this job. And that's what I do today. But my path has been not linear in any any way whatsoever. And I think whenever I talk about my work history, I always have to start with my childhood history and how I grew up. So I grew up. I'm originally from California, I live in Maine right now, which not far from you. So I grew up in California, on the Central Coast, in the woods without electricity. And so from a very young age, nature was kind of a third parent. They was where I spent most of my time, you know, there was nothing to do in my house, there wasn't TV, there wasn't lights, there wasn't video games. So to entertain myself, I played outside. And so from a very young age, I fostered a connection to the natural world. And that really shaped a lot of my identity. And so for college, I chose to study environmental studies. And I then went on to become a naturalist, which means that I pretty much notice things and then I point them out to other people. And I worked in environmental education for a while. So taking students out into the woods, teaching them about plants, having them connect to nature, especially maybe students who had never really been outside a whole lot. I worked with a lot of kids, maybe from more urban environments, so getting to introduce them to those concepts in nature, like ecosystems and plants and how they were connected, and how everything in nature is connected. And then from there, I went into a little bit of public policy of environmental programs, I worked for a solid waste company doing a lot of recycling education. And around that same time, I was getting really end to gardening myself. And I really fell in love with that. At the time, I was living in an urban environment. And there was lots of nature around, of course, but it was the garden that kind of brought me back to those childhood roots of feeling like a place that I belonged and feeling kinship. And so I loved gardening so much that I decided to go back to school for landscape design. And then from there, I started a business, designing gardens for people to help encourage them to get outside into their yards and to also steward nature around them. And that was going well, I was also doing some home and garden writing. And then I decided to move across the country. And the ecosystems in Maine have like no translation to what it was in California. And so I knew I needed to start something over. I could of course have learned about the ecosystems that I and I have been, but in terms of professional capacity, I didn't want to have to spend years learning before I could start a business. So I thought about what else I was passionate about. And that was kind of simplicity and simple living. And so I decided to start offering services as a professional organizer and helping people Declutter. So then that way, you know, when they are less obsessed with their material objects, then they can start to foster this connection to nature. And so then I had a business doing that. And while I was doing that, I was having to market myself and so I was learning photography, taking pictures of myself to market my business. And then I fell in love with photography so much that I started doing that as a service, which is what I do today primarily, and I also teach women online how to take photos, not only to market their business, but also just feel more confident in their own bodies and to give them a sense of place, kind of in a vision Joe presents. And that's where we are today. And so my individual work doesn't have a lot to do with nature on on the front. But I use all of that knowledge that I've learned from gardening and from nature to kind of approach. Whenever I experienced a difficulty in work or a business problem, I always like to consider, like, what knowledge does nature have? And how can I use that to kind of create my offerings or to help solve a problem that maybe I'm encountering?

Erica D'Eramo 5:30

Yeah, I think it's, as someone who also has a very nonlinear background, it's not that any one piece of my career stands separately and apart and completely unrelated, even though one might think that, you know, what, what on earth? Does leadership coaching have to do with like mergers and acquisitions? And what does that have to do with engineering? And what does that have to do with, you know, working in a wine store, which is what I did for a while. But they all absolutely are interrelated in some of these themes that I think we'll be talking about today. So I want to talk a little bit about the origin of how this episode came about I was, I was actually sitting in a, in a writing community working on a writing prompt, and there was the prompt was about the myth of too much right that so many of us are told that we're too much of this, we're too loud, or to take up too much space for too annoying or too abrasive or too, too, too, too. And I think, especially a lot of, you know, people showing up in female identities get this a lot, right, we have constant messaging about being too much. And I just like took a step back for a moment. And I thought, we would never say that to a plant or to a garden, like you would take such a different approach. When you're looking at the natural world with so much more curiosity, and, you know, appreciation for how things naturally show up and embracing that. And it led me to, like start brainstorming about this episode. And I thought, like, who better to talk about this with than Melissa, who A is a naturalist B works with women in embracing their whole selves and sea, like, embraces that the natural cadence of, you know, the environment, and seasonality and differentiation, you know, like the natural diversity that shows up in the world. So that is how this episode came about. And I reached out to Melissa, and I don't really know what we're going to title this episode. But there's a lot I want to talk to you about. So thanks for being up for the challenge and going on this adventure with me.

Melissa Keyser 7:53

Yeah, absolutely. And I'm thinking about my garden. It's not it's officially spring as we're recording this, but it sure doesn't look like spring, but in my head, I am planning my garden. And you're absolutely right, we never think like, oh, this plant is going to be too pretty, or oh, it's going to be too colorful, or oh, it's going to attract too many bees. Like, we don't think that and it's so strange that we apply that to our own selves. And we think that, you know, we would never plant something, or at least, if you are a knowledgeable gardener, you wouldn't plant something, thinking that it can be something than what it is, it's going to take up space, it's going to need water, it's going to need soil. And if you've never grown something before, you may plant something, thinking that you can control it, that you can can, can form it to what you need it to be. And you can in some capacity, you know, you could plant a shrub, and you can maybe, you know, prune it down all the time to keep it the size you want. But its natural tendency is to be itself. And so once you can accept that in a garden, like your gardening experience is going to be so much better because you're working with their natural tendencies. And so if we look at ourselves, we wouldn't think like, oh, well, if only I make myself smaller, if only I make myself more invisible, then I will thrive or it's not like we need to be our own space, or we need to take up our own space that that we need. And we all need different levels of that we all need different needs. And so thinking about that in terms of the garden, if we pretend we are a plant, or whatever ecosystem element you most connect with, then it can rephrase how you think about yourself and can give you the confidence to be what that is that you want to be and what space you want to take up.

Erica D'Eramo 9:46

Yeah, I think there's that curiosity element that I love about if you were to look and I talked about this with diversity, equity and inclusion, like I'm gonna I'm gonna bring in some of those parallels here because if you if you have an employee who's not thriving? In the corporate world, you would often say to that employee, like, you need to change XYZ, right? Look at your performance appraisal for this year, here are your gaps, versus looking at some of the system factors and saying, Hmm, maybe if we had more natural lighting, maybe if we had shifted work hours, maybe like it, what does this person need in this ecosystem, and I recognize that, you know, we're all having to work together in these systems. So we can't, you know, and ever, like you just said, everybody has their own separate needs. But if you were to look at a garden, right, a tomato plant is going to need something different than a pepper plant, which is going to need something different than an oak grow plant, etc, etc. But you can still take that curious approach and say, Oh, what's lacking here that we might be able to supplement so that we have a thriving like an environment that this can thrive in, instead of putting the onus on, you would never say to the okra plant, like, Well, looks like you just got to buck up and tough it out in the cold weather, you know, like, it's just not going to just Whoa, just want to grow? Yeah, or a

Melissa Keyser 11:12

tomato plant. Yeah, you know, if if you plant it, and it starts to thrive, but then you have a really cold night coming, you would cover it up, because you want to give it all that you can all the resources possible for it to thrive. Obviously, we're not tomato plants, but there's certain things that could apply so easily, you know, maybe that's flexibility was scheduled, or maybe that's moving to a different physical space, or maybe that's preventing heavy fragrances, whatever, you know, even small, little things. And, you know, if you think about a garden, and if you've paid any attention to any knowledge about, you know, crops and agriculture, like we know that a monocrop is not a healthy system, if one thing comes through, it all can get wiped out, but gardens or farms that have multiple crops, multiple that fill multiple roles, like there's more diversity, there's it's just better health and for the business, if you're growing something as a business, then there's that resiliency. And that's, I think, with a team to like, everyone has the role, if you expect everyone to be exactly the same, then the system can fall apart, or it's just going to deplete all of the nutrients and resources. Super, super fast. And we're getting, you know, metaphors, probably a little mixed up here. But I think you can probably understand the overall concept that the here.

Erica D'Eramo 12:33

Well, I also think, though, that this monocrop idea of like, there's this the concept around conforming, you wouldn't want that in a garden, right? Like I wouldn't want for me, because I'm not trying to grow vegetation at scale, or grow food at scale. I want different things in my garden, because a salad that's all tomatoes, or a salad, that's all cucumbers is not a very interesting salad. But I'm not gonna yell at the cucumber for not being a tomato, right? Like it's Okay. That we, it's great that we actually have diversity. And if you have an environment that's only suitable for such a tiny sliver of the natural world to thrive, then you're missing out on so many other opportunities. And it's not a matter of like morality. You don't say to that tomato plant after the Cold Snap, like, well, I guess you just couldn't cut it. Like maybe you should have been tougher, who bent? You're the one that won't get any tomatoes. You're gonna, you're the one that's gonna suffer for not, you know, mitigating for some of these effects.

Melissa Keyser 13:41

Yeah, absolutely. Although, I mean, I have a tomato doesn't make it through frost. And it's like, Okay, well, this is now a lost cause. And so we'll plant something in the spot. But yeah, I did want tomatoes. You know, like that was the whole point of the planting that to begin with? Yeah,

Erica D'Eramo 13:56

we just don't I think that there's that that individuality that like individualism, especially in Western culture, that we build up so much, that the individual is responsible for everything. And I think, you know, we are the masters of our own destinies in so many different ways. And I, I love the approach of sort of taking a more holistic view, again, embracing that curiosity of like, what's actually going on here, it's not a moral failing that the tomato had, you know, experienced a cold snap, you're not going to plant another tomato, a fully grown tomato in its place, and then expect a different outcome next time, which is what I see in corporate America a lot, right? Like we see environments where we don't, we don't embrace inclusivity or we don't create work environments where people can thrive and then it's like, oh, well, I guess we should just hire more XYZ people and put them in that environment and expect a different outcome this time in stead of like, looking a bit deeper, like what's going on in the soil?

Melissa Keyser 15:03

Yeah, because it's rarely, it's rarely the plant itself. It's the conditions, you know, the plant is genetically created to thrive to reproduce, that is what it's meant to do. But if you don't have the right water, if you don't have the right son requirements, or if you don't have the right soil nutrients, like it isn't going to thrive, it's that's just basic care of any living creature. And as you were saying about, you know, the individualism. In gardening, there's a concept called companion planting, because certain certain plants do better near their friends. And that could be because the roots are somehow symbiotic, maybe one plant creates more nitrogen, which then can feed the plant next to it, or maybe it attracts a certain pollinator that's really great for the fruiting plant. And so when you're planning a garden, determining these friendships, and these collaborations, you will get more from all of those involved, if they were separate, and growing in completely different environments. And a lot of that comes from experimentation, and then just also looking to see what's working for other people. If someone in their garden is having great success by planting, say, these three things together, it would make sense for you to replicate that, instead of being like, Nope, I know best. I'm going to continue to plant these all apart, be like, Oh, no, Okay, I've heard that these guys are friends. I'm gonna plant them all together and see what happens in my garden.

Erica D'Eramo 16:35

Yeah, I mean, I want to acknowledge too that like, a lot of this is the, you know, indigenous groups who have been living off of the land for centuries millennia. knew this, right? Like, and, and no, this the, like, Sister crops, right, the Three Sisters of beans, corn and squash was something that was not really, for colonial settlers that arrived. That's not something that was they were aware of, right. That's not the way Europeans farmed in the past. And I think like, we're kind of coming back to some of that wisdom. Of late, you're seeing more, at least I'm seeing more conversation about that more embracing of, you know, historic ways of, of looking at things and different ways of knowing Indigenous ways of knowing. But this is not new, right. Like people, people have been planting this way for a long time.

Melissa Keyser 17:38

Yeah, and just land management in general, you know, here locally in Maine, like one of the practices is to burn blueberry fields, you know, that wasn't something that the Europeans came up with. That was something that the native people here did to clear out shrubs that would over shade, the blueberries. And so in, in any of the, you know, the colonizers coming, they would look at the land management and think that it was, you know, quote, unquote, wild land because it didn't look like their European methods of farming. But a lot of the land was, in fact, tended through prescribed burns or girdling trees or things like that the native people were shaping the environment, it just looks different from what they were used to. And so they just assumed that it was wrong.

Erica D'Eramo 18:20

Yeah, yeah, that's a great point. I was, I think, listening or reading recently about the establishment of, you know, the national parks, and preserving this quote, unquote, natural, untouched land and how actually, in reality, a lot of that land had been very actively managed by the peoples who had been living there, and tending that land and shaping it. And so when the parks came in and kind of said, Oh, we're clearing everybody out, nobody can touch this, that almost counteracted some of the ways that the land had been managed for, you know, centuries,

Melissa Keyser 19:01

millennia. And that's still being seen as an effect in California, specifically with wildfires. You know, there were small controlled burns for such a long time by the Native people, because they knew that buildup of material on the ground would create a hotter fire. And then when white people moved in and started, you know, quote, unquote, managing the land, they thought like, Well, no, of course, we don't want any fire. So we're going to suppress it all. And the, the thought pattern has shifted, and they are starting to do those prescribed burns, they are starting to let wildfires burned. But a lot of the problems are because that native knowledge was ignored. And I and I think I actually know the same podcast episode that you're talking about, because I was talking about that with my husband about it, even like the whole ecosystems have been shifted from rivers when certain species were removed, and the landscape has very drastically changed.

Erica D'Eramo 19:55

No, I mean, I I love this blurring of the distinction. We Between Us versus the wild, right? Like there seems to be this view that the wild is out there and we are separate from the wild. But that that's not the case. Right? Like we we are. We are animals fundamentally right? We are mammals we are affected by, as I can tell, affected by the amount of daylight affected by the weather affected by all these things, but we act like we should be machines. We act like we're completely separate from the natural world, that we don't have the seasonality that we see in the natural world that we're like, distinct from it. And I don't know, I think it does us a real disservice. Like I think, in your communities of creator creatives, you talk about that, right? That like, hey, it's dark, it's Okay. It's Okay that we all want to hibernate, right? This is, this is normal.

Melissa Keyser 20:53

Yeah, in my personal opinion, I feel like the way that we have removed ourselves from that natural world and those natural cycles is a big cause of a lot of the problems that we face today, particularly, I think, with like some health issues and some some emotional struggles that we're all having, because we are separate from the systems and not even so much that we are separate, but we think that we should be Okay with it. And so if you are an individual who is aware of the daylight hours, and you are more tired in winter, which we are supposed to be we are physical mammals, like we are, we are animals, no different than the squirrel that's hibernating. And so if we think that there's something wrong with us, then that, of course, can really make us feel like we're not good enough, or we're not productive enough. And if you don't work in an environment that can acknowledge that, like, maybe you're not going to be productive, every single day. And if you are someone experiencing, you know, a hormonal cycle, even within this month, on a monthly basis, you're going to have periods when you're more productive versus not so productive. And so to work in an organization or a struck, you know, a capitalistic structure that can be really challenging, not only for a day to day to do list, but also just feeling like you belong somewhere.

Erica D'Eramo 22:15

Yeah, that's a i and I find myself again, thinking like, and so what do we do with this, right? Because yes, it is a challenge. So for me, like the biggest piece is coming back to that curiosity, instead of that self judgment that so many of us are taught to bring in, probably has served us in certain capacities throughout our lives and our careers, that beating up on ourselves for like, oh, gosh, I'm such a waste of space. Like I barely got anything done today, I was so unfocused. And instead bringing like a bit of the naturalist view of like, Hmm, well, isn't that interesting? Hmm. Let me observe this, and what might be happening here, instead of the, like, negativity and self judgment, because the negativity and self judgment doesn't really do anything unless you can discover something from it.

Melissa Keyser 23:07

Yeah, absolutely. I think understanding and just yeah, the curiosity, like noticing what's going on is a huge step. Even if you can't change, say, for example, your schedule, just understanding what's happening, allows you I think so much more just maybe compassion for yourself. And just understanding and that I think, in itself is very powerful.

Erica D'Eramo 23:32

Yeah, it sort of de pathologize is it right, and we're not all supposed to be these cookie cutters that show up the same way every day, day in and day out. Because we need to bring it back to the natural world, you don't see that there's no two leaves that look exactly the same, right? We this idea of perfectionism, or it's like conformance to some standard or norm is an interesting one to me, especially when we elevate that as being better as being good, inherently good to conform to a perfect you know, quote, unquote, perfect.

Melissa Keyser 24:13

Yeah, it's who it's and then it's yeah, looking back at like, whose standard is that? are we comparing it to, um, I was thinking about this, you know, with trees the other day, I had been part of a discussion about, you know, finding imperfections in nature and then I was going for a walk and I started looking at the trees, looking specifically for these quote unquote, imperfect trees, you know, and once I started looking at that, and like approaching my walk with curiosity, it's like Okay, well, let's take a look at these trees. And so you know, you would see some that you know, pines that you know, on a commercial scale, growing straight up straight strong, like that's the quote unquote, perfect tree. But when you look then there was there would be trees, you know, that had forks or maybe they had a bend in them, or, you know, maybe the top got blown out and they put out a second other things like that, and the tree is still a tree, it's still providing to the ecosystem, it's still adding so much value. But technically, it's a very imperfect tree. And so it's like, well, why, you know, what is the standard that we're holding against it? And how and so using that same knowledge to yourself, I think can be powerful, because it's like, Okay, well, my own imperfections, like, what standard? Is it? That I'm holding myself to? Who is the person that said that this is standard?

Erica D'Eramo 25:31

On that question of whose standards are we trying to achieve? And who is setting those standards? And what do they have to gain from that? And is it aligned with what we want? And I think so often, we don't stop to say, like, who? Who gave this to me? And that's a question we ask in coaching a lot when people say, well, I should be xy and z, or I should attain XY and Z. And it's like, well, who gave you that? Did you come up with that on your own? Did you inherit it? Did you inherit it from your family? Did you inherit it from your workplace? Have you really evaluated that belief and decided that it aligns with your values? Because especially when we look at what the world is trying to sell us? There are a lot of motivations out there for us to believe that we are too fat to skinny to brunette, to blonde, to freckled to all the things my eyebrows are all to something, right. Like we're always to something. And

Melissa Keyser 26:37

not enough, or you're too much. Yes, yes.

Erica D'Eramo 26:41

Too much? Not enough. Not enough, too much. So, yeah, I mean, there's just to be kind of cynical for a moment, there are real financial incentives for organizations to have you believe all of that we make a lot of money off of people believing that they are not enough, and that there is something that they can buy, or purchase, or subscribe to you that will make them enough.

Melissa Keyser 27:08

And of course, it's a that's never possible, you will never be enough because there will be someone else saying that you are too much or not enough. And it's an ongoing, perpetual downward spiral with someone out there making money off of that, feeling that you're not enough.

Erica D'Eramo 27:24

Yeah. And once you pluck your eyebrows into oblivion, and they never come back, then bushy eyebrows will be the norm and the fad, and then yeah, then they'll get to sell you something else. So yeah, I know that this was kind of like a broad reaching conversation. And if I, when I have to apply some SEO terms to it, I'm not really sure what we're going to tag it with. But it really did capture

Melissa Keyser 27:53

my business in all capacity. It really

Erica D'Eramo 27:57

did capture what it was that I wanted to explore, which is again, this like tying in more more of the like connection to the natural world and that curiosity and us as part of an ecosystem that we can't actually detach from right like we are unique snowflakes, unique branches, unique leaves were unique and complex. And we exist around other unique complex beings trying to survive in this very complicated, challenging world. So that's

Melissa Keyser 28:37

a much more eloquent way than being like this dumpster fire of a world that we are experiencing right now.

Erica D'Eramo 28:44

It's got its challenges, and I'm not gonna lie like we are recording this right now in, you know, kind of coming up on the end of March. This episode is planning to err in April, about March is a tough month, especially in the northern hemisphere, right? Because there's the tug of the longer days, you feel like it's spring, it's spring and spring, right, but like, the snow is still coming. Like there's still snowflakes. It's still cold. We're still kind of isolated, and shedding some of our winter dust and our winter clothes. And so I don't know, I always find it a bit of tension in March as we approach the real spring.

Melissa Keyser 29:24

Yeah, February and March, like here in New England, the Northeast where I'm at is really challenging because you do have that push and pull energy, and it can be sometimes hard to navigate. And so I think a lot of that is just the knowledge that the faith in cycles, that it's going to come back around and we might be miserable right now. But the faith that it will once again be warm. It's I think the same you know that that's why so many cultures celebrate the return of The light, it's you know, we made it through the winter. And it's that faith that it will once again the sun will come back. Yeah,

Erica D'Eramo 30:06

yeah. And I think like we just passed the vernal equinox. Right. So and the, at least up here in in Maine there, there has been some crocus sightings, the daffodils are starting to show their leaves, I haven't had an actual Daffodil sighting yet of a flower. But like those, those are like the indicators that we're getting close. Yeah. And it's a little easier here, though, when I lived in Alaska, where they called it breakup season or mud season, you know, like, but it's those same, those same themes. And you're right, I think we can look back to cultures all over the world who have really acknowledged the, these cycles with more than just a fleeting glance of like, oh, it's spring break, or it's bank holiday. And

Melissa Keyser 30:52

that simple act for me of like, every morning, I do and go and look for signs of spring can really help me stay motivated. It's like those small little things, those incremental changes, and like, oh, my gosh, yes, something has started to come up, like, Oh, I saw green on my elderberry Bush, you know, like, just those small, tiny little slivers that things are coming around. And so yeah, in I mean, there's so many metaphors of darkness of winter and light of the summer and spring. But you can also think that I think for personal challenges, or work challenges, that hope of that cycle. Like, I'm really stressed and busy right now. But it will come back around at least if you're curious about that, and try to implement that and work in that kind of philosophy.

Erica D'Eramo 31:40

Yeah, and or right, I things are really slow right now, things are not moving, things feel sluggish. And believing that that's Okay. That's not like a signal that everything is going to end. And it's terrible. Like it might just be that new seeds are being planted that it may be the you've talked about this, too, that this there is a right time to plant seeds, right, there's a right season for certain things. And sometimes we just need to try again, sometimes they are germinating and just need to sprout. So yeah, that belief that even if it's a slow period right now, or it's quiet or not feeling motivated, that that's Okay, that's natural. This is not some, we don't need to read too much into it.

Melissa Keyser 32:27

And also, I think the idea that things sometimes take a really long time. And that's Okay. And so like with my own seed starting, I'm starting a lot of perennials. And I started some Achillea, which is Yarrow, and I planted those seeds under my grow light, and they popped up like two days later, versus I have planted Rudbeckia, which is black eyed Susans. And it's almost a month now and they still have not come up. But that is normal for that plant. And so sometimes with I feel like, especially with social media, we kind of expect this instant success. You know, we hear all of these people who put out some offer and two weeks later, they're making six figures. And that may happen for some, you know, maybe there's those are those Yarrow seeds that pop up real fast. But then for others, it does take a lot more time. And that's perfectly normal. That's just a different cycle that's happening. And so just that curiosity of yeah, what's happening in the natural world and like, Okay, how may that be applying to my own life? And then realizing that like, that's also Okay. That's also something that's happening. And I'm just on this cycle right now. Yeah,

Erica D'Eramo 33:35

not assigning good or bad, but retaining that curiosity. Yeah, yeah, that really resonates. Well, as we kind of tie things together here. What are any key takeaways that you think maybe folks should retain after they take their headphones out and stop listening? I

Melissa Keyser 33:55

think what you've been mentioning, you know, the sense of curiosity. And so taking a moment, looking at what's happening out in the garden or out in the natural world, and then thinking about how that might apply to your life. That's what I do. Anytime I'm like, Man, everything sucks right now. I hate everything. I'm the worst person in the world, whatever those you know, maybe darker thoughts are I look outside, or at least I think about, you know, what else is happening outside in the natural world? And then I think about like, Okay, if I was a plant, or if I was a squirrel, you know, like, would I be holding these same thoughts? To whatever I'm experiencing? Or I look for an answer, like I just mentioned with the seeds, you know, like, Okay, this aspect of my business is taking forever to grow. And then I can think about like, Okay, is this because this just takes longer to germinate? Is it because I'm not planting it in the right type of soil? Is it because it needs to be, you know, stratified and have periods of freezing to rest before it can germinate? And so I can start to apply those curiosities to my own out trends and thought patterns. And it just kind of makes things a little bit maybe more clear and gives you at least some framework to maybe follow or something to consider.

Erica D'Eramo 35:08

Yeah, I feel like I need to print it out and stick it on my wall to just like, have this self acceptance and self worth of my cat who is happy to do nothing all day and, you know, cat slash cats, and, and they all still feel perfectly deserving of all of the love and attention at whatever time they want it. There's no like, did I need to earn this? They exist, therefore they deserve it. And I have to remind myself sometimes to channel that natural feline energy a little bit. Yeah. Yeah, we can

Melissa Keyser 35:53

see, impressed and graced with, you know, so happy that we have even grace to them with our presence.

Erica D'Eramo 36:00

And also give treats. Yeah, right now. Yeah. 100%. Well, I really appreciate you coming on and exploring this kind of, I don't know, wide ranging topics that I wanted to explore. So for folks who have been listening, and might want to know what you're up to, where can they find you on the internet's

Melissa Keyser 36:23

I recently started a substack as a newest creative project, where I am kind of writing about these things, drawing these parallels between nature and life, as well as just some tangible garden musings nature musings. So you can find me, it's Melissa Kaiser on substack. My publication is called under a garden spell. And so you could subscribe to that newsletter. For more thoughts on this and to connect, they're

Erica D'Eramo 36:50

awesome. Well, we will link to that in the show notes. And you can also find it in the transcript. And again, appreciate like the curiosity and wisdom that you brought to this, like I will say that Melissa is one of my favorite people to go on a nature walk with because I am one of those people who will stop and look at every plant and be like, Oh, wait, is this in the XYZ family is this? And she doesn't get annoyed at all. She's there for her exploring and the curiosity and tying it back to bigger, broader questions that are facing us in this world. So thank you, Melissa.

Melissa Keyser 37:24

You're welcome. Yes, I'm definitely one of those people that will point out plants and give you the names unasked.

Erica D'Eramo 37:31

The Latin names too, which is always really impressive.

Melissa Keyser 37:36

So much for having me. Yeah.

Erica D'Eramo 37:38

Thanks for being on and for folks who would like to find the transcript or the notes for this episode. You can find it on our website at twopiersconsulting.com and we look forward to seeing you next episode.