Please note that the following transcript is auto-generated and may contain errors.

Erica D'Eramo 0:15

Hello and welcome to the Two Piers podcast. I'm your host, Erica D'Eramo and today we have guest Sarah Scala joining us. Sarah is the founder of Sarah Scala Consulting, a certified woman owned and LGBT business enterprise that provides organization and leadership development, executive coaching, LGBTQ+ leadership coaching, public speaking facilitation and team development solutions, serving as a consultant, coach and educator, her work transforms the performance of leaders and teams, helping them to reach their highest potential.

Hi, Sarah, thanks so much for joining us today.

Sarah Scala 1:01

Thank you, Erica for having me.

Erica D'Eramo 1:04

So tell us a little bit about your origin story, kind of what? What's the story of Sarah?

Sarah Scala 1:11

Well, the story of Sarah is that Sarah has been supporting team and leadership development now for over 25 years. There's a blog I wrote called how I got here. I'm sure there'll be a link in your footnotes. But in high school, we were able to do project adventure team building, playing on ropes courses and climbing. And I went to college and studied Adventure Recreation so that I could be able to facilitate and lead corporate team building programs in the outdoors. Since my you know, career has evolved it now I spend a pinch less time in the outdoors doing team development and a lot more time doing speaking, coaching, team coaching and leadership development. But when I have any time off, I'm right outside biking and kayaking, so that's sort of my origin, and I've been fortunate to work in this field of team and leadership development now for close to 25 years.

Erica D'Eramo 2:16

Yeah, wow, that's awesome. So what drew you to this work that you're doing now, and maybe, maybe describe a little bit about what that means, what that you know, the team and leadership development, what? What do you what? What kind of work does that involve?

Sarah Scala 2:30

Yeah, so with leadership development, sometimes it's coaching CEOs and leaders of teams. Sometimes it's coaching entire teams, so providing leadership coaching to intact teams. Sometimes clients will bring me in because they're having an off site or a retreat, and they want to have some of their retreat to be experientialized, meaning that not necessarily we have to play outside, although sometimes we do, but giving the teams real life opportunities to work through challenges so that they can keep learning and growing. I also do a lot of work with teams on assessments. So whether it's 360 assessments for leaders, or assessments about wants and needs or styles and approaches, and those tools have been really helpful for building awareness with teams as well. So

Erica D'Eramo 3:29

you mentioned, kind of starting out in this outdoor environment and then shifting more into the indoors or inside the, you know, the C suite or inside the conference room. What? What brought that kind of transition about for you?

Sarah Scala 3:45

Great question. So that transition came when I was in my late 20s, early 30s. I went back to college and got a master's degree in adult learning and in organization development so that I could do more corporate boardroom ballroom type of design of these types of programs so that that, I think, was certainly a pivot point for moving from predominantly outdoor based experiential learning to more indoor based experiential learning, leadership development and again, assessments to support that.

Erica D'Eramo 4:27

So after you got your masters, then what drew you to this work, this type of work, that felt important to you?

Sarah Scala 4:35

I have felt for a long time that leaders and their teams need constant focus and constant development. It's nice to say you went to school and you studied something, or you have a degree, or you now have, you know, a PhD, or you're a doctor, or you're a lawyer, for example, that doesn't stop the learning. And so the importance of lifelong learning. Learning, lifelong leadership development, having a growth mindset. Looking at Carol Dweck work on mindsets is really important, I think, especially today. I mean, look how fast things are changing. We have AI in the workplace. We have robots more involved in manufacturing and in fast food, and so the people's roles in organizations are going to continue to shift and change, and I don't see that slowing down. So my role to support leaders and their evolution of their learning, of their development of their awareness is always going to be important and needed?

Erica D'Eramo 5:41

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I mean, especially as the role of the leader, like you said, shifts and changes. So when you kind of meet with leaders or organizations, what are some of the key challenges that you come across that you help these leaders and organizations to overcome?

Sarah Scala 6:00

Sometimes it's conflict. It's not surprising to have members of teams that may not see things the same way. Many times it's awareness of things like strengths or styles, and often it's about clarity around expectations and roles. I think many people think, Oh, we look at the team and they have all these titles, but there's a lot of overlap that can and sometimes happens. There's sometimes stepping on toes, and there's sometimes a lack of appreciation and thanks for each other, for the members of the team and for the leader. And so those are some thoughts around that.

Erica D'Eramo 6:41

Yeah, so what's, what's something, what's a struggle that you witness, particularly with your insight as an LGBTQ+ leader and someone kind of leading the way in that realm?

Sarah Scala 6:55

Yep, it very much depends on the leader's perception of inclusion and belonging and their view of the importance some leaders may say, Oh, I'm not about this dei stuff. We hire people. People do the job. People go home to their families, their at home life is separate from their at work life. However, many of my clients that are increasingly more and more successful have become very aware and willing to learn about how to make their workplaces more inclusive, so that all employees feel like they can belong. One example, you know, one of my clients, this was a few years ago, but their doors to their facilities did not have handicap accessible buttons to get in, so anyone that had mobility issues getting to work was an issue for other clients, they may or may not have policies that support different orientations and different needs. And so again, working with the company to say, hey, here's some things we could do. What are you comfortable doing? And so having those conversations being the third party or being the outsider has been really helpful, and not every business sees these areas the same, so helping them to see how can some of these small changes impact their bottom line of their business. And I know, you know, some people might think, well putting feminine or hygiene products in all restrooms. Doesn't really make a big deal on the bottom line, or having same sex benefits or having handicap accessible doors, but they would be incredibly wrong based on studies. One example is from a censure that showed the perception of inclusion from the leader to the employee, having a gap of close to 20% and the cost, the opportunity cost, to a US business, is 1.0 5t trillion dollars, so it absolutely impacts a business's bottom line, how inclusive we can make our workplaces, it's pretty critical. I don't know about you, but most business leaders, when they hear the word trillion, it causes them to pause and think about that. It's not a nice to have. It's a must have.

Erica D'Eramo 9:36

Yeah. I mean, how, based on your insight and your experience, how do you see that linkage playing out like, what? What are the benefits of an inclusive work environment, where there's a high sense of belonging?

Sarah Scala 9:50

So it's been very interesting, especially recently, over the past six months, where you have major Fortune 50 companies who have said we are no longer doing. Dei, and that's what ends up in the newspaper, but the majority of companies is still funding and investing money in strategies to support inclusion and belonging. And how do I see that working out? Quite simply, people don't want to apply to organizations where they're not inclusive, especially Gen Z. Gen Z, I think 85 or 86% of employees at Gen Z, regardless of their differences, will not apply to or work for a company that is not perceived to be inclusive. 85% quite a big amount of potential talent that doesn't even want to look at your job postings or meet with your recruiters. So there's the talent acquisition piece, but then there's a huge retention piece, right? If we hang up the signs and you know the rainbow flags and Black Lives Matter and all of the other quote, inclusive paraphernalia, but then you get to the workplace, and in fact, it's not safe, it doesn't feel inclusive, and I don't feel like I belong. I'm out, and I'm out within six months to a year. So if you're a business owner or a leader, you know how much time and money it costs to bring in great talent. A great way to keep the great talent that you're bringing in is to have a culture, have guidelines, have rules that are supporting belonging and inclusion, whether you're a leader at the C suite, whether you're mid level, or whether you're a new employee.

Erica D'Eramo 11:36

Yeah. Do you tend to work with clients that already see the value in this work, or do you end up encountering clients that are hesitant about the value of this work?

Sarah Scala 11:49

Yep, great question. And I work with clients on all ends of that spectrum. I've had clients who have said, Ah. So I've noticed that dei is a topic keeps coming up in my business journals. We're not doing anything to support that. And this is 2220 2220 20. Can you help us? And then I have other clients, major, you know, fortune, 100 companies, who will call and say, Hey, we've been doing employee resource groups and have a really robust Global Inclusion and belonging program. Can you speak at our Women's History Month or our pride event, or, you know, able and allies during Disability Awareness Month? Can you help us in that way? And so I appreciate the diversity in what clients need, it's never the same exact story. And so that's fun, because it always keeps me on my toes.

Erica D'Eramo 12:49

Yeah, absolutely. So what would you say you're most excited about in in the future of kind of leadership that you're seeing?

Sarah Scala 13:00

Yeah, yeah. So I think, you know, the United States of America may or may not go through some shifts in the next, you know, one to four years. We don't know, but it's interesting, because as the more recent, movement against dei has been happening over the past couple of years, my business demand in that specific area has gone up, up, up. So it's hard to know what is going to be requested businesses that are serious about long term inclusion and belonging see the value in investing in either consulting to support that, speaking around it, coaching to support it, leadership development. So it's not my job to convince a leadership team to do this work. They have to sort of have that feeling that, you know, curiosity around it, or desire to give it a try or to do it. But you'd be surprised how many major organizations are still coming out, asking and fiercely moving forward leadership development wise, I think that's gonna obviously keep expanding, simply because the world keeps changing and so helping to meet leaders where they're at and where they're going is going to repeatedly be a need.

Erica D'Eramo 14:29

Yeah, where do you think leaders are really struggling with this? I mean, it is a brave new world, kind of and like you said, things are changing really quickly. So where do you see the major pain points for leaders being yep,

Sarah Scala 14:43

I would say, over the past five to seven years, the difficulties I've seen with seasoned leaders have been their acknowledgement or awareness that they're no longer going to have every answer. They're going to hire people who are sometimes younger than. In them smarter than them, more experienced than them, and so their role as a leader is no no longer tell someone what to do. It's about guiding and supporting direct reports or those they lead to continue to elevate their performance. So it's been a pretty major shift that I'm seeing that I don't see slowing down, especially, you know, you have all these younger people that are graduating programs, that are studying AI and different types of engineering and different ways of doing things. And of course, they're going to know different things than you do, maybe as a 20, 30, 40, year old professional and leader, because they've just recently been exposed to these new methods, tools and technologies.

Erica D'Eramo 15:52

Yeah, which feels like that might be a perennial challenge for leaders, you know, like the Technology is always changing. I guess that was the case in the 1800s as well. But the pace and the the structure has changed as well. Like what that means has changed.

Sarah Scala 16:13

Yep, I see many organizations doing reverse mentoring or peer mentoring, where you have very senior level folks partnered with entry level people because they know different things. They have very different skills, and it can be reciprocal, as opposed historically, to mentor programs, which I also build and design for companies where it typically was the senior experienced person mentoring the person who was newer. So I've seen that as a major shift as well.

Erica D'Eramo 16:46

Yeah. So in terms of these challenges when you were talking through it, I can't help but think about the connection between inclusion and belonging when the role of the leader has shifted. So how do you see those relating?

Sarah Scala 17:01

So let me make sure I understand your question inclusion and belonging and the shifting role of the leader. Well, at the end of the day, people aren't going to stay or do their best work in places that they don't feel accepted and like they belong. Whether this is, you know, 1850, or 2040, in years, people aren't going to want to stay where they don't feel good about who they are, the work that they're doing, the contributions that they're making, and that they're accepted. And so I think it's going to be a challenge to retain great talent. I see that challenge as increasing more and more. If as a leader, you are not providing a psychologically safe work environment for your team, and if you're not supporting inclusion, and you don't have to love everybody, but as a leader, you need to behave in ways that show people that you are accepting, you are supporting and you are welcoming, regardless of views, beliefs, etc. Yeah.

Erica D'Eramo 18:08

I mean, when you were mentioning that the role of the leader is no longer really to just tell people what to do, but rather to tap into the wisdom and knowledge that they're bringing and and the fact that the wisdom and knowledge of the newer folks in the younger generations coming in is so vastly different and outside the even sphere of expertise of the leaders, it feels even more important to be able to gain access to those insights and play that role of, I don't know, tapping in to the wisdom.

Sarah Scala 18:42

Yep, yep. And I feel like leaders who don't build a culture where people want to be there, they're gonna miss out. People are much less willing to innovate, to try new things and to be vulnerable, which are key recipes for success if they don't feel included. So if I'm a leader and I'm not helping everyone on my team feel like they belong, I am crushing the potential, not only for that employee, but also for me and my team, because I can't get exposure to their awesomeness if they don't feel safe sharing ideas, debating, speaking up. So it's all, it's all pretty, pretty interweaved. The way you treat people will determine how much they are willing to give. Yeah,

Erica D'Eramo 19:38

and I think that we're seeing especially in today's competitive environment, that these innovative companies that can really adapt quickly with agility, can respond to global shifts in the economy, global shifts in the supply chain, global shifts in technology. They are the ones that are. Position to be able to stay the course

Sarah Scala 20:04

Absolutely, and turnovers happening faster and faster. When I was growing up and was much younger, people stayed at the same company, 1020, 30, sometimes 50 years today, we're lucky to get three, and if we can build an environment and a culture and leadership where people feel welcomed, it's even less.

Erica D'Eramo 20:29

Yeah, so what would you say kind of the key, the key insights for our listeners who will maybe they're driving to work right now, or maybe they're listening as they're on their elliptical, when they kind of turn turn that off, turn the ignition off, or step away from their elliptical. What are the key insights you want them to retain and the key takeaways?

Sarah Scala 20:53

The leadership journey is never over, that the sooner that we realize we have to constantly be learning and developing not only ourselves, but others. That's mission critical, and the more of an inclusive and belonging team and culture we can support and build, the better we're gonna be, and the better our bottom line will be for business. Now, you're not expected to be perfect, right? We're gonna learn. We're gonna take two steps forward and one step back. And if we are willing to give it a try, to constantly build our leadership, to constantly try to be inclusive, it can only get better.

Erica D'Eramo 21:33

Yeah, so for the folks that that really resonated with, how would they find you? How would they come work with you? If they if they like what they hear and they want to bring you in to do some work.

Sarah Scala 21:44

Excellent. Well, my website is sarahscala.com I believe a link to that will be in the show notes. I'm also on LinkedIn. So I love connecting with different people. I also have a newsletter that you can subscribe to once a month, I send out a free newsletter, I write blogs, and I try to speak at a lot of public events, so definitely reach out if I could help support you or your organization, it'd be great.

Erica D'Eramo 22:14

Yeah. So we will indeed have those links in our show notes, and for anyone listening who would love a summary of this chat, you can find that on the two peers website, along with a full transcript as well. So thank you so much, Sarah, for coming on, sharing your insights, having us think a little bit about this and for doing this important work.

Sarah Scala 22:38

Thank you so much.

Erica D'Eramo 22:40

Yeah, and for our listeners, we look forward to catching you next episode.