Please note that the following transcript is auto-generated and may contain errors.

Erica D'Eramo 0:00

Hey there, it's Erica just jumping on before the episode with a couple quick notes. First of all, this episode does contain discussion around disordered eating, and complex feelings around our bodies and the way that society treats people in larger bodies and in smaller bodies. So if you have a history that makes this a difficult conversation to listen to, or it could cause more harm than good, then please do what's right for you. And maybe this isn't the right time to listen to this episode, maybe there is no right time for you. And that's Okay. So our guest joining us is a licensed clinical social worker who specializes in these issues. So we do take care in the conversation. But again, just want to put that little content warning out there so that people can choose what's right for them. And then secondly, you'll notice at the very end of the episode, the last few minutes of this episode, some of the sound quality does change just due to a recording issue we had with the platform refreshing. And so we appreciate your grace and patience in that. I think it primarily affects our guest's recording, which is unfortunate, because that's the voice that we do really want to highlight here. But yeah, we are super grateful to have Keri Baker, join us on this episode and share her wisdom and insights. So if you do decide to listen, we hope you enjoy the episode and find as much value as we did.

Hello, and welcome to the Two Piers podcast. I'm your host Erica D'Eramo. Today, we have Keri Baker joining us as a special guest. So Keri is a licensed clinical social worker, intuitive eating counselor and a therapist in Tampa, Florida. Her practice specializes in working with adults who are struggling with a relationship with their bodies, food and their own self worth to ditch dieting, and no longer believe that their lives need to remain small.

So we are super excited to have Keri on the episode today to talk about all things showing up in the world with the bodies that were given. Really excited to have you on Keri, thanks for joining us.

Keri Baker 2:25

Thanks for having me. I'm so excited to be here.

Erica D'Eramo 2:28

Yeah, this was an episode that I've really been looking forward to recording because I feel like in our current world, we are just bombarded with messaging that we are constantly taking in absorbing without even maybe being aware of it. And it's showing up in our lives in all sorts of ways that affect just our our overall well being but also our professional lives as well. And so that's why it was a topic that I wanted to talk about on the Two Piers podcast. And I think that in some ways, it disproportionately impacts already marginalized communities. It disproportionately impacts women. And so this was something that yeah, I'm really excited to get your insights on.

Keri Baker 3:11

Yeah, it's a really important topic. Obviously, I've like focused my clinical work on this for lots of good reasons. Some of what you just said, so, so happy to talk about and have any space to talk about this stuff. I will scream it from the rooftops.

Erica D'Eramo 3:24

Yeah. Awesome. So tell us a little bit about yourself and how you came into this work.

Keri Baker 3:31

Yeah, it's so interesting, right? Having to kind of think back like, how did I end up here, I think about this often. And I think about all the kind of like roads I took before I got here. But the real reason why I'm doing the work that I'm doing now around food and body is because of my own lived experience. And it's super interesting in the eating disorders world, because that's kind of where I landed clinically, I think before kind of expanding into talking more about, like diet, culture in general, and diet recovery, which is kind of a word that I'm playing around with. Now we'll see if it resonates for people when I say it is because of lived experience and the things that we've kind of gone through ourselves. I think as a clinician, we don't have to have gone through the same things that our clients have gone through. And even if we have similar experiences, it's never exactly the same. And when it comes to things like body, body image and relationship with food, I have found that clients really respond and people that I work with respond really well to hearing some insight from someone who's actually been through it. I think it's really hard and part of the reason that I've done this and I'll, I'll explain a little bit more in a sec. I happen to live in a I say a fat body and I reclaim that word for myself as really a positive word not even just that not negative word. And my body has changed sizes a lot over my lifetime because of chronic dieting. But I found that in the in food and body and eating disorder spaces, there are a lot of clinicians And with lived experiences who happen to live in small bodies. And again, wonderful conditions, they do wonderful work. But when I have met with clients who don't live in smaller bodies, it can be really helpful to talk to someone who like they see themselves in which goes for really anything, right any kind of like marginalized identity, if you're able to stick with someone and say, oh, like I see this person and myself, it can make the work a little bit easier. I don't know if that's the right word, but it can make it can just make the support feels a little bit different. And when I talked about chronic dieting, for me, that looked like probably for around 2025 years, starting from like, middle school aged, I was on a diet, you know, by well intentioned adults who thought that that was the right thing to do. And I laugh because I know, my mom even told me that she's gonna listen to this. And I said to her, you know, I'm probably going to talk about you a little bit. And she understands that it's something that we've talked about, right. But like, my mom, and I went to Weight Watchers when I was, I believe it was around middle school together for the first time, right? She thought she was doing the right thing. It ended up kind of part of what put me on this path to diet for a really long time. Until I found kind of a different way of doing things, which really was finding intuitive eating, and I'm sure we'll talk a little bit more about that. But yeah, I mean, that's really the story of how I landed here is because of the years and years and years, I spent hating my body and really wanting to try to find a different way to, like live the rest of my life. But I feel like I've really been able to do that.

Erica D'Eramo 6:30

Yeah, I mean, so much of that really resonates for me, as someone looking back, as the daughter of someone who was always in a very small body. What was messaged to me as being normal, and what my like genes were supposed to have given me in terms of my body size, those messages arrived very early in my cognitive development. And I'm only unpacking a lot of that now. And I think when I initially reached out, I was kind of joking about the like, overachiever, the pipeline of like overachiever, girl to like, overachiever, a woman to complicated relationships with food. Because I see so much of this complicated relationship to food and body in many of the clients that I work with. And there seems to be some parallels there. And so this was something that I wanted to explore further. You have any thoughts on that?

Keri Baker 7:36

Yeah, I think, you know, I think that there's so much pressure that is put upon us by and I think the way that I like to look at it is, and the way I talk about it with with clients that I that I meet with, is kind of taking a look at like all of these rules that we kind of live our lives by, and I have an I think a lot of the rules that we tend to feel we have to follow have to do with like, basic life needs like food, right? The way we treat our body's health, right? And I put that in quotation marks a lot, because like, what does that even actually mean, right? We have this, there's this rule that we have to look to live in a certain body to be healthy, right? There's this rule that we have to like, reach certain academic goals to be successful, that we have to go to college, right, that we have to go to grad school that we have to be in certain types of careers, right, that are like good careers that will make us successful people. So I think that's kind of where I see the connection. So I, you know, you wonder for, for folks who end up and maybe the type of careers that it sounds like you like talk to your clients about, they've kind of followed the same path of like, and not to say that they don't love their jobs, and that they really enjoy it. But sometimes I wonder like, are these the choices that people would have made for themselves if there wasn't this set of rules that they needed to follow? And a lot of the food and body stuff, I think is really like packaged up and all of that.

Erica D'Eramo 8:57

Yeah, I think there's also this piece too, as you're talking through it, it's kind of solidifying for me that there's this piece around envisioning safety within the system, if you play by those rules, and then we figure out over time, that, you know, getting straight A's in school might have given you some form of whatever safety achievement, gold stars, the things we were seeking to tell us that we were Okay. And we were going to be Okay. And then as time progresses and we realize that if we follow all these rules, maybe we won't actually achieve the safety in the environments we're in like, even if we do get that job, even if we do make ourselves as small as possible. Like we're not actually achieving that and that it's maybe there to control us in a certain way. So I don't know there's an evolution there, but I'm sure there was some point in my life where I thought if I could just follow all these rules, I will be safe

Keri Baker 10:00

Yeah, we don't want to be othered, right? Like, don't be the dumb kid, don't be the fat kid, right? Don't be the nerd Don't be all the things that we feel like, carry these really negative connotations, right? Especially even from when we're kids. And a lot of that is pushed, obviously, these aren't things that we just came up with on our own, like these are pushed by external sources in our lives, it's pushed on us by again, I'm not saying that adults are doing this on purpose, although maybe there are some, but I think the majority of like parents aren't, you know, they're trying to instill these values in their kids and the, the way that they talk about other people rubs off on their kids the way that they, you know, navigate the world in the way they talk about relationships. So I think what you said about that remaining small piece, right, like, I can remember being a kid, and when I started to become aware of my body, and being in a certain size body, it's that feeling of like, you can't hide, right, people will see you, you will stick out somehow. And that's how this idea right of being like in a marginalized body and being othered in some way and feeling different in some way. I think for me, it even took me a long time to be able to use that word like to say that even being in a fat body feels like a marginalization, because that's not something that's talked about, right? We talk about, you know, how difficult it can be to live in, you know, disabled bodies, and to live in black and brown bodies, right. And all like, come with it, like such difficult. such difficult things that that people in those types of bodies have to navigate. There's something about being in a fat body because it is equated with being unhealthy being that it's something that you have control over. That's really interesting. And then you think about the, the intersectionality, right, between people who happen to live in fat bodies and disabled bodies, right, fat bodies, and, you know, otherwise marginalized bodies. It's really, really complicated. And it's just like layers upon layers of things that we have to navigate. And it's, it's really hard. And it's something that I think is being talked about more these days. But like when we were kids, like, nobody talked about this stuff, right? We didn't know what was going on why it was so hard to navigate all of this.

Erica D'Eramo 12:08

No, we had a food pyramid. Just eat the food pyramid. You'll be fine. Yeah, do the sit and reach. Show us. Your hamstrings are not tight.

Keri Baker 12:20

I was just talking about that the other day. Someone I'm like, do you remember that presidential test? Like I couldn't remember the anxiety of doing that? Like what ridiculousness?

Erica D'Eramo 12:30

I can't believe he made us run a mile as kids like just Yeah. Anyways. Without any like, build up to it. Just go for it just run a mile today.

Keri Baker 12:40

Yeah. And if you can't do it, something's wrong with you. Right. Like, what's wrong with the kids who are like last coming in and doing this? Like, just? Yeah. Makes no sense.

Erica D'Eramo 12:49

Yeah. Are they still doing that? Or have we done away with the?

Keri Baker 12:52

That's a good question. I know that I have heard and I don't have like, I can't like, quote, a source on that. So exactly where it was, but some schools where they're weighing kids, like there's parents who I know I like in groups and things where I watch parents talking about, like, how do you opt your kids out of some of this kind of stuff? I've even heard something about like, if you want to immigrate to maybe it's New Zealand, that your BMI can't be over a certain number, like something crazy like that. Yeah, you're

Erica D'Eramo 13:23

Okay. Yeah. Yes. So for any listeners, feel free to go. Google dig into that one. That's, that's crazy. Yeah. I mean, and BMI. Well, I'm sure we will. We'll touch on how ridiculous the MIS but so I, you kind of mentioned what drew you to this work? What what has made this important to you like that it's become the focus of your practice, because you can be doing a lot of things as a clinical social worker. So what made this worse focusing, you know, your, your practice on?

Keri Baker 14:00

Yeah, and I think that it did start with me recognizing for myself how much this was impacting me. And now when working with others seeing that like, this is a universal thing. This wasn't literally just like a me thing. But when I was really actively dieting, which, and this is where things get, like tricky for me, because the things that I was doing, were so socially acceptable, right? So normalize. So like, I was celebrated for doing these things. Again, that's not to blame people that that were doing those things because they're stuck in the same diet culture cycle that I was stuck in. But it was so celebrated and so normalized. And there were times that I now knowing what eating disorders look like, like there were times where I definitely could have been diagnosed if I if I had seen the right provider at the right time. There was a lot of restriction it was you know, binge eating all of kind of the classic things that happen But because I wasn't in a very small body, because it was so normalized. It was this was like my life for, you know, 20 years. I mean, it was every book on my bookshelf, it was everything that I did every day, it was the constant cycle, it was feeling terrible about myself, I wonder if I could go back now. And I wouldn't change anything. Because I am glad where I've ended up. I'm glad for the experience that I've had. But I just think about the years and years and years really wasted, where my all of my mental energy was put onto this. And somehow, I got really lucky. And I was still able to function, right? Like, medically, I was Okay. I was still able to, like, go to grad school and do my internship and get a job and like, start having kids, right. So I feel like some of that was just luck, and probably some good old Hardy genetics that like kept me functioning. But I there was so much time invested in that I had no idea at the time that I kind of pulled myself out of this. And again, I also got really lucky that I was able to do it with really limited outside help. And I don't wish that upon anyone, because I think that things could have been a lot easier if I had found the right people. And I kind of did, but I was already already kind of a ways into it. I just wonder what would have happened. If I really had understood things about myself, would I have made the same choices in life? What I have, like felt as terribly about myself as I did, like, I just didn't give myself any room to explore any of that. So I think now to answer to answer your question, it was a long winded answer. When I see people who are struggling with this, I know what that feels like the day to day, mental energy and mental anguish that people go through when because every day you have to eat right? But it's different than when you're trying to you know, and like when we think about substance use, right? You there are substances, you can stop using them. Right? So difficult, right? So much work. But for lots of people like you can put that aside and kind of like pivot to other places in your life. Like we have to eat every day, multiple times a day, we have to live in our body every single second of every single day. So when we're struggling with these things, it is literally taking up everything that we've got. So when I see clients, and it's interesting, people will say like, Oh, what do you just will you work with someone who like has anxiety? Like, yeah, because every single person who wants to see who is struggling for the body,

like has anxiety, right?

Yeah, right. Like it is it encompasses, like every other like comorbidity, right? Every other type of diagnosis like this stuff is just so common, even clients that come to see me who are coming maybe like, quote, just for anxiety or for something in their life they want to process. I don't think I can think of one client that I've seen in the past where we haven't had some kind of discussion about body at some point where there hasn't been some comment about Yeah, maybe I do have something going on with food, because it is so so prevalent. And I think that people who have not been diagnosed with eating disorders, because I've somehow flown under the radar really fall between the cracks, which is why I've tried to kind of like craft, I think different kinds of language. And I'm talking about my practice, and that I'm really trying to kind of get to those people who are struggling. And maybe at some point, realize I'm struggling here and need help. But because they're not diagnosed, or they look at like eating disorder language, and they think well, that's not me, right? Because I'm not quote, like underweight, which we know that the majority of people who have eating disorders are not, it doesn't look the way you know, it was really like shown to us when we were younger, right of what someone would look like. So I feel like those people that are missing out on getting help, because it's hard to kind of define what's going on for them because it is so normalized. Yeah.

Erica D'Eramo 18:45

Yeah, I think like growing up, I had this almost romanticized image of what anorexia looked like from you know, the after school specials, or whatever, where if someone is just wasting away, she's just so frail and delicate, and she's, and everyone rushes to support her and, and get her the help, she needs to see that she's truly so much more beautiful than she thinks she is. Like, that's not the way stuff plays out in real life. And almost for someone who is struggling to feel seen in the world, or whatever, like that is almost, I don't know, a dangerous image to be painting. And not necessarily the warning message that perhaps the after school after school specials thought that they were painting but

Keri Baker 19:33

One part of the problem is that is that a lot of the like, medical establishment still kind of sees it that way. Right? So I think about all the doctors I saw that like, clearly I was struggling, but they were like, well, you're like, you know your BMI is high you're you know, you're you're overweight, whatever that looked like so that that's like the only marker that they're looking at and that's not to say every medical professional but it's and it's because of what they're being taught so right like the model around how to treat them. Eating disorders are like, you know, body concerns, it's still just very, they're not being taught about it in school. I mean, I have more nutritional training than a doctor has, right? I believe that doctors get about like a semester, if even that have training in nutrition, and even if they would get more training and nutrition, they would be getting it from organizations that are not are not talking about it in the right way.

Erica D'Eramo 20:23

They talk about this a lot on Maintenance Phase, the podcast Maintenance Phase, which yes, if anyone hasn't heard of Maintenance Phase, I think that's a that's a good place to start with these topics and to tune in. But the fact that like, you can go to a doctor, and we'd like anything, right, like a stubbed toe. I had, you know, migraines, I have migraines. I remember I had like, like a skin irritation that you know, every literally everything they're like, Well, have you thought about losing weight? Have you thought about losing weight? Have you thought about losing weight? Like it's the immediate answer to everything for so many people who present with any sort of issue. Turns out that like skin issue needed, like a $3, topical medication totally went away. Right had nothing to do with weight. But it's like the first line of questioning because we're only looking at outputs. And like you said, there's no questioning there about the inputs, like what's happened, maybe somebody is literally starving themselves already. And that's not related in the direct way to the output that they think like, which brings us to maybe the question that we should talk about kind of upfront, which is what are some of the misconceptions that you see? Because I'm starting to get into the territory where we should, we should probably start debunking a couple a couple of the myths around what this looks like, perhaps.

Keri Baker 21:52

Yeah, I mean, I guess the biggest one is, right, is that being in a fat body means that you're unhealthy, right? That, that if you have or that gaining weight is unhealthy, that losing weight will make you healthier, right, we see that over and over and over again, I see that even in people, you know, people that I have followed on like Instagram forever, I love that that's like always a place that I have to reference because that's the place where I watch people who I don't actually know. And I follow like their life story, right? People who have actually changed their minds, and like, become an anti diet culture. And then they decide, you know, years later, well, now I need to lose weight, because I'm because it's going to make me healthier, right? When we look at the research, and my my disclaimer is that I am not a researcher, that would have been a cool thing to do. But I have consulted with some people who like this is their job. And they've looked at the research around intentional weight loss, right, so we're not talking about someone who's like body just naturally changes, right? Because bodies will change. Like when we say when I say to anyone, when we're gonna start doing work around like intuitive eating, you could lose weight, you could gain weight, your body could stay the same, like, I have no idea what your body is going to do when it settles back to like, whatever natural place it's meant to be. So when we're talking about this, we're talking about, like intentional weight loss. So try like restricting yourself in some way doing something to intentionally trying to shrink your body. And when that research shows is that, you know, 95% of people who tried to do that intentionally will gain that weight back. And some people say the percentage is even higher, right? So like, if you knew going on a diet, that you had a, a 95% chance of it failing, not because you're doing something wrong, but because your body just like will not do that. Like do you think you'd be like, Oh, yes, it's my fault that I failed on this, right? No, like, it's literally the research shows that this is what happens and that up to two thirds of those people that gain the weight back will gain back more weight than they from where they started, right? So they end up at a higher weight, which I know based on my research study of myself, right, my weight just every time I lost and weight cycled, right, my weight would just go up and up and up. The research shows that it's the weight cycling really that ends up giving us like cardio metabolic issues that you could see someone in a larger body and doctors are going to say well you have this you know metabolic issue because you're in a higher weight body but really it's because there's been this weight cycling so it's a lot of the like correlation is not causation. Yes. And really what's I think most interesting which I think goes back to what you were just talking about, about being at like doctor's offices and always like blaming weight is that it's the thing that is the worst thing for our health is is not the size of our body but a lot of times it's the weight stigma that we face right so people not going to get help because they're worried about that. I prolonged like I was actually like in a very like good healthy way like right like seeing a trainer like feel stronger because I was feeling really crappy had nothing to do with changing my body for probably the first time ever and then I pulled something like in my quad right? I delayed going to see someone I could not walk. I was like hobbling around I delayed by two weeks me, a professional who is in the space, who knows how to advocate for myself with a doctor who knows that it's helped bullshit who like will not take shit from anyone when it comes to this delayed going for two weeks, because I was so mortified. And it took me a while to realize that that was what was going on. But I was so worried that they were going to tell me that, say, make a comment about my weight. And I just like whatever was going on for me at the time, I just could not tolerate that. And I was thinking about, I know that I have an issue with my knee. And I'm worried that like, at some point, I'm gonna need a knee replacement, and my BMI. So like, I went down this spiral of here, all the terrible things that are going to happen. So I didn't go, right. We think about people who delay going to doctors, when they have serious medical problems, and they die, right? People find out they have stage four cancer when the doctor has been saying lose weight, right? Like this is frightening stuff. So really, when like that research shows that it's it's really the weight stigma that is what is so bad, like, what is so bad for us when it comes to like our health? Right? Again, putting it in quotes, because it's such a it's such a loaded word. So I think that would probably be the biggest if I had to pick one.

Erica D'Eramo 26:08

I mean, there's parallels here too, between the the like social framework around disability as well, because in many cases, it's not the quote unquote, disability, that is the issue. It's that it's society's treatment of that, and the way we've structured our systems and processes and the physical environment such that it's not welcoming to that or it's even actively harmful to that.

Keri Baker 26:37

Well, the stress of that, right. Yeah, yeah, the stress of not being able, I'm you know, I'm thinking about someone who, like can't go upstairs, right, and the stress of going to a building and then not being away to get in, right? Yeah, someone who's in a bigger body, like needing to fly on an airplane and like the seat belt, not fitting and not wanting to ask for a seat belt extender, right? Because of the shame and the judgment that comes around that right. The world is not built for people in other bodies. It's built for thin, white, right, straight bodies. And we know that we know this, but yet we still blame ourselves, right? We still say this is my fault, right? It's my fault that I need a seat belt extender, I should be I should be doing something to shrink my body and not saying, Well, this is this is not set up in a way that is conducive to actually supporting like anyone who happens to ride in this thing at any moment in time. And we see, right.

Erica D'Eramo 27:29

I mean, and again, like a parallel with universal design is like having seatbelt extenders is good for everyone. Like it's just not these some of these improvements in the way we operate in the world are make, you know, the rising tide will lift all all of our boats. But that brings me on to an another thought. And actually, this occurred to me earlier in our conversation, when you were talking about the the psychological and and mental load that we carry, when we are so focused on either restriction or navigating the world and larger bodies and how that energy is being funneled into something that is, you know, really just us like there's it's not impacting the world in a better way. It's not productive energy. It's not a productive use of our energy. And when you were talking about like, what could you have done with that energy, if like you it were directed elsewhere, if we multiply that across all of us, who are carrying this load, like the difference in the worlds that we could all be making, if we took that mental space, that mental workload and distraction, and we focused it on like, achieving our goals, eliminating world hunger, creating world peace, like all of these existential things that are happening in the world that need our time and energy and attention. And we're distracted on this. And I think I don't want to be like a conspiracy theorist here. But it is quite convenient to keep people distracted on things. When there's inequality in the world if you can keep them distracted on fixing themselves on the respectability politics of it on these like hyper specific things like the shape of your eyebrows better, you know, you better spend a lot of money and time making sure your eyebrows aren't too pushy, or aren't the wrong curve. You know, it gets a little like, well, that's a convenient coincidence.

Keri Baker 29:35

Oh, I'm 100% in that conspiracy theory with you, and I don't think it's a conspiracy theory. I think that there's maybe a part of you that feels like you have to say that or else you're, you know, like talking about something that doesn't exist, right. You have this like, you know, like almost a caveat like, this must be some crazy thing, right? I must not be right. Like, I must not be right about this. But we talked about even if we're just looking I knew and when we talk about like the diet industry, it includes all of those things right? beauty ideals, like the things that are sold to us to, like make us look, you know, change the way we look change the way we dress. You know, this is like, the diet industry alone even, we're just talking about food and like diet plans. I mean, it's like a multibillion dollar industry, they are making so much money. You think about it, these diet programs will say this, is it right? Like, here's the one that works, something new will come out. But if it worked, then you would stop paying them. So why would they give you something that worked? I mean, the answer is that there isn't something that worked. I don't think they're like hiding some kind of secret, because I don't think it exists. But they want you to continue to buy into it, right? Like makeup brands want you to continue, they change things and they make things more exciting, right? There's a million different types of clothing, you can buy, they change these things so that we continue to buy into it like that is 100%. purposeful, or else what like they'd have no business.

Erica D'Eramo 30:52

Well, I mean, and I think like this idea of keeping folks oppressed by keeping them distracted and focused on what I'll say is trivial things like the shape of their eyebrows. While I don't think there's like some committee somewhere being like, "Oh, the women are getting uppity, like, let's throw a new body image issue out them." And I guess that's what I mean, really conspiracy. And I don't think it's like, in a thoughtfully and strategically coordinated in some, like, large, overarching global way. But what you mentioned is yes, the capitalism is doing it very intentionally. There is like a Marketing Committee, with so many of these companies that's like, Okay, let's just make women feel crappy about or men feel crappy about XYZ, and then we can sell them more of this thing. So that is intentional. I also think what's intentional is how quickly we can use bodies to undermine someone who is posing a threat to us, like in the workplace, or making, you know, like, how quickly can we dismiss a woman's point, if we can just say, like, well, she's fat, like, what do I you know, what do I care? She's clearly not discipline, she's clearly not whatever, name all of these things that we love to throw at women, but in that way, we do us act like people in power actively. And this is not just men doing this. Women absolutely do it, too. I mean, it's gender neutral, in my opinion, how quickly we turn appearance against people showing up as women in particular, right. I think it really there is a gender difference there and how it's used to undermine people's points. So yeah, in that way, it's like, yeah, very useful and strategically used.

Keri Baker 32:41

Yeah, I agree. I mean, I've worked in I've worked in a couple of different before my practice, I worked in schools, and I worked in hospitals, which happened to just by nature of like, the jobs there were a lot of women right, like in my social work department in the hospital I worked at for like, almost 10 years. There were probably 30 of us like it was the amount of Body Talk the amount of looking for the right word dissing other people based on the things they would wear based on the way they looked based on like, I can remember people making comments about like, the way our director like wore her hair, like this was a big compensation. Like, you know, we got to get her a flat iron kind of thing. And the interesting part for me is to look back is that I really like participated in that right in my early 20s. Like just kind of went with it. I look at it now and I'm like, damn, like I like there was so much commenting about Lux and about again, it's like the rules of like, while you're supposed to do this certain thing I remember at one point them telling us we weren't allowed to wear leggings like granted we were wearing like lab coats, right? We were like on the hospital floors like we weren't covered up with other things that at one point they told us we couldn't wear leggings and never really gave us a good explanation but I'm pretty sure it was because like leggings are tight, and like you're showing too much right? Or they don't look like professional in some way. And even though I remember back then we'd like complained about it but now like looking back on it it's just utter ridiculous this this is what we spent hours and hours and hours talking about when we had sick people we were trying to care for and like do this job. Like what a distraction. Yeah, and these were other women coming up with these rules to like place upon us. It's just, it's like mind boggling to think about those things.

Erica D'Eramo 34:26

Even when you think about and this is, so having worked offshore right where I can I could like grab a quick shower, throw my hair in a bun, oh, my wet hair in a bun no makeup, wear scrubs, wear coveralls, whatever sneakers, literally not give any more thought to my appearance than any of the guys going from that and toggling back and forth between that and like finance roles or mergers and acquisitions where appearance was, you know, perfect, quote unquote professional appearance was very important. And, you know, there were very few occasions wear jeans were Okay. And seeing the difference in the just the time it takes to get ready in the morning, the sheer time it takes to I'm putting on Spanx and wearing that torture device, you know, like all this stuff. But like, Okay, and you stand trying to get your hair to not be frizzy and makeup, that's not going to be all like shiny and runny and whatever. And if we just as like a little analogy, a physical analogy of a measurable amount of time that we put into appearance and how we show up because we fear that rightfully, I shouldn't even say fear, we are cognizant of how it will impact us in in the workplace and impact our ability to be heard to be taken seriously to get paid. Right. I mean, we I think studies have shown to and I should find the actual research on this, that women in larger bodies are paid less, that there is a correlation between how between renumeration for women, and that is not the same for men. that correlation does not exist across the across the gender spectrum.

Keri Baker 36:13

So it even makes me worried about Yeah, yeah. And even make no I even makes me think about things like access, right? Like us. I think that people don't get it. Like let's say someone who lives in a larger body. And let's say it's someone like, again, I'm in like a mid sized fat body, right? So I can't shop in a regular store, right? Like a size extra large, and the store like does not fit me. So I need to go there. The good news is that there are there are more like plus sized stores, right or there, there, there are more opportunities to go and buy something like in person, but it's not so easy, right? You so I think about those, those employees perhaps right, where they're, they're being judged for the size of their body, and perhaps like what they're wearing, like, Do you know what it's like to have to go and try to access stuff. So I'm thinking of someone in a larger body than me, right? Who really does need to go online order clothing that are probably more expensive, that really aren't made to like be in the types of styles that like people like to wear clothing at any given time, right? There's like, so I say it to like reiterate that there's all these layers, right? That it's not just you're in this body, but it's also what you have access to right. And then there's all of these judgments for things that literally you have no control over. So it's like such an interesting, it's such an interesting thing. And you don't know that until you have to live that and be like, Oh, I can't just go to Target. And like buy myself a t shirt because I need something right, I'll go buy myself a nice shirt to like have to wear to work today, because it doesn't exist for me. I like Old Navy, right? At one point in the last. I don't know, if it's been more than a year I like time is like not a thing anymore. Like I say something happened like recently, and people are like, No, that was like six years ago, like maybe in the past like few years, just to have this whole campaign to bring like, plus sides clothing into the store and not have it in like a separate section. It was like you would go to the rack. And there was a size, you know, to through, you know, 20 something. And there was like this big celebration, right? Everyone was so excited. Because the idea of being able to go into a store and actually look at like, Oh, here's a style I like and they happen to my size. And it's not off in the corner like in some, you know, reject section, like they set it up, like Oh, here you go with the clothes that fit you. And then they they took everything out. Like I feel like it was there for a certain amount of months, and then they pulled it. So even that it's like here, let's pretend like we give a shit about people being like accessibility to something as simple as clothing. Yeah. Right. And then be like, actually, we're just kidding. We're just gonna, we're gonna pull that up, because maybe they didn't sell as much as they like had anticipated. So they just pulled it all out of the store. So what's an actually about inclusivity? Right, it was about trying to attract like more people to their market. Yeah. So I don't know, I'm about to get off on a little tangent there. But I feel like there's just so many layers even around like, when it comes to work and what to wear at work and showing up at work. And, and it's yeah, it's much more complicated than it seems.

Erica D'Eramo 39:07

Well, I mean, I think it ties into this questioning of when you initiate when you look at somebody who they're like, oh, I don't know, she I don't know that she's got what it takes her leadership, she just got like a frumpiness or about her right. And it's like, well, that's because places like Old Navy think that if you're in a larger body, the only thing you want is like something with frills or something with like floral print on it. Like I don't understand why that weird thing happens where larger sizes just like don't adhere to the same types of style, like trends that are out in the world. But that initial like gut reaction of judging someone is what I think needs more questioning for a variety of reasons. Like what are what are the stories you're telling yourself about somebody who's in a small body versus somebody who's in a larger body and And is it that like the person in the smaller body, oh, she's she's dedicated, she's disciplined. She's XYZ, right? She goes to the gym all the time, I'm sure she, she really watches what she eats, she cares for herself, like all these other stories that you tell me, that person might have hit a genetic lottery ticket. Or they might be literally struggling with some illness like this idea that you are more morally superior, more, whatever productive because of the smallness of your body, this, the lack of space that you take up in the world is a really interesting thing that a lot of people don't question when they start subconsciously judging people. And so the piece around the clothing comes into because that's just an extrapolation right of the, the whole thing that people don't even understand.

Keri Baker 40:52

So, yeah, the opposite of that, which is fat people are lazy and gross. And believe the lazy thing is what gets me right. Like, there, you know, whatever, I was gonna give an example, which doesn't even like prove the point. But that is the trope. And that is what we are taught, right? It comes out of people's mouths all of the time. Children are listening to us say these things, right? Even in the school, I worked at the amount of body talk. It was again, I could say it's mind boggling to me. But it's not because I think when I first started changing my mind and realizing the havoc that diet culture was playing. In my life, I got really mad at any ad people that were still engaging, right, so I was pissed at my mom that like, even after I told her what I had found that she went on another diet, right? Like, I was mad. I was so pissed at people. And I think I had to be mad because sometimes you need like that real big emotion to actually like, have it propel you forward into something else. But really, these people are just stuck like I now it's more of like a compassionate like that. I would not, you know, I would not go back to that for anything, because I know how terrible it was. But these are like grown women sitting in offices with little children outside talking about the diet that they're on, are someone coming in who had lost a significant amount of weight, and like commentary and talking and having to sit and watch that, like for me was honestly one of the reasons why I ended up going into private practice is that I didn't think I could, although I can tolerate it. Like it's not fun to just have to tolerate something. I didn't want to have to be in an office environment like that anymore. And not everyone has that choice, right? I had a choice that I could get I could leave that. But it was even that was triggering, right like activating for me like everyday to have to kind of watch that was really, really difficult.

Erica D'Eramo 42:39

I I still remember a fourth grade teacher who would go on a cruise every year and talked about how she would like starve herself before the cruise to lose 20 pounds or whatever, so that she could binge eat during the cruise and put it back on.

Keri Baker 42:58

And kids remember this stuff right now like you remember this like how

Erica D'Eramo 43:02

Yeah, I remember. I mean, I was what, like eight or nine or something. And I still remember that. So that was like 33 Four years ago.

Keri Baker 43:12

Yeah, I can you think like when she didn't know? Yeah, no, she didn't am sure if she if someone could have like frozen time at that exact moment for she said it and common and said, when you say this, Erica is going to talk about this and 30 something years on a podcast and how much like no way she would have said it. Right? She would have shut her mouth like, but we they we just don't know. Like we just don't realize and raising like raising intuitive eaters. You know, I have two young kids having to really pay attention to this, even when we're trying to do it in our own household. Like I know, they're out there hearing things to other people. And it's it's really, really hard to it's worth it. But very, very hard to navigate with kids especially.

Erica D'Eramo 43:53

Yeah, I yeah, that's, it's interesting, because I mean, there's a lot of parallels there too, for all the things that they'll face in the world and like trying to give them the filters to be able to even be cognizant in a way that we were not and who knows what, like the next generation, who knows what we're saying to people right now that somebody is going to talk about on a podcast and three years, or whatever the thing is, yeah. Yeah. So I mean, I wanted to touch back on the piece around the correlation with health and this idea that there's a correlation because one of the interesting thing, things that I saw in my and this comes to the point about like maybe maybe just shuttered her darn mouth when commenting on people's bodies. When I was in the depths of some pretty severe eating disorders. I used to get so many comments about how amazing I looked right, how healthy I loved how it I had lost so much weight and looked so great. And people thought I looked quote unquote healthy III. And at the same time, I was eating maybe 400 500 calories a day, I was like training for marathons running 40 plus miles a week, like really putting myself into actual heart, like, probably some permanent harm. And the idea that that was healthier than me 20 pounds heavier, 30 pounds heavier, 50 pounds heavier, right, like 50 pounds heavier, would have been much healthier. If I had. If I was eating nutrients if I was like giving my body the sustenance it needed, if I wasn't depriving my bones of the calcium it needed and like, I gave myself stress fractures, right from all of that. And people are so the I think people are learning to not comment as much about, like, weight gain, perhaps because they feel awkward about it and good. But I think people still feel very comfortable commenting on weight loss. And so I want to throw that out there. See what your thoughts are?

Keri Baker 46:00

Yeah, yeah, it because I feel like it's this is the way it is talked about. So often. I think that the idea of being a smaller body being healthier. But we think that literally just because it said over and over and over and over again, like ad nauseam without any we never asked for the research on that, like, show me the research on why being in a smaller body, right, because it's more socially acceptable. Like all the other things we talked about, right? It's safer, it's easier, like all of those things. And I actually I just posted about this on Instagram, I'm like, very on and off with Instagram, but sometimes like something happens. And I'm like, I must make up story and like, give this whole narrative on this thing. But I even the other day saw someone I think it was Kelly Clarkson. I saw a picture of her I had heard, like some rumor that she was and I don't like follow celebrities, like not my thing. But I feel like it was like Grammys, or something people were talking about, you know, all these celebrities that are on ozempic. And like these GLP one drugs, which is like, probably do a whole podcast on its own on that. That she had lost weight. And I happen to see a picture of her. And she is lost. Like, I mean, she looks very, very different than she did. And I had this internal reaction of like, jealousy, I guess I think it's the only like, emotion that I could think of, and almost like an excitement for her. And this part of me that like just kind of like popped up. But like, that's, that's not how like my core set. Like, that's not my core belief of mine with your values, are you? Yeah, but like, I still have this part of me that came up and was like, Oh, my God, and I really had to sit and like, process that. And that's because I was taught that right? Oh, this is so exciting for this person. I think the way that I talk about this with clients, cuz I think might this might be helpful for anyone who's listening to this, we're like, this is kind of new information for them. Let's say hypothetically, it was healthier. For me to like live in a smaller body, let's say like, let's just say I don't think that's true. But let's say hypothetically, that was proven somehow that it would be healthier for me to be in a smaller body. If you referenced the heck of the data point that I that I said about that it is literally impossible, right that only like 5% or less of people actually could achieve that. And what happens instead is I'd probably gain more weight if I tried to shrink my body again, even if it would be healthier getting quotes for me to live in a smaller body, there is no workable way or solution for me to do that. And if I try to make an attempt to do that, what is going to happen is I'm going to end up gaining probably more weight or messing with my metabolism or right or having some kind of cardio metabolic problem because of more weight cycling and it's going to end up making me quote unquote less healthy than I am now if that is true that if the opposite is true that getting more weight makes me less healthy, right so the attempt in itself of trying to get to a smaller body is actually going to push me in the other direction. It is not a workable solution for me to be to actually shrink my body right so what do you do instead, you focus on other like health promoting behaviors that have nothing to do with weight loss. I'm never going to argue with someone that it's not like good for your body to like eat more fruits and vegetables right like I'm never going to say to someone you shouldn't do that like that no like we know that there are great nutrients there's also great nutrients and bread and cheese and all of the other things that like we'd like to demonize even like candy right when I studied for like my like my licensure test they were like drink some juice before you go in to do it because you need that quick like carbohydrate burst in your brain right like there is a use for that for everything for any kind of like macro and micronutrient we can take in we can lean into like gentle joyful movement, right maybe yoga would feel good because I feel really tight right? Maybe running because I really like to do that would be health promoting behavior for me. For me it's not health promoting because it hurts my knees right so like to say this is healthy for you to go and do this is too much of an overgeneralization. You can focus on things that are good for your body and that are health promoting without having to have anything to do with losing weight or shrinking your body. So that's like the way I typically think about it. And it's been the way that even when I have little parts of me that like to pop up that are still tied into dye culture, because I talk to people about how like you're trying to heal from something, again, that you are literally in the thick of it, day in and day out. But this is how I this is how I like reground myself that even if it were true, there is no way for me to do it. And I have tried. I am not in this body now for lack of trying to make it be different. Right. I have tried all the things. It wasn't me that failed, it was the strategies that just don't work. So I think that's like the bird's eye view on that kind of question.

Erica D'Eramo 50:42

Yeah. Yeah. And I think that for the other piece of this is that because we are so normalized to it, even even and maybe especially those of us who have struggled with body image, which I don't know anyone who hasn't struggled with body image, but that we are not immune from stepping in it and saying things or having that resurface. So I guess I want to offer to people listening to just don't ever comment on people's bodies. Don't do it.

Keri Baker 51:18

There's never a reason there really isn't ever a reason to do it.

Erica D'Eramo 51:23

Yeah, even if you think it's a compliment, right, like, and that's where I think that's where people forget that if you think you're complimenting somebody, because they lost weight, like you have no idea. What you're really saying is, perhaps I'm happy that navigating this world will be a little bit easier for you, because this is the world we live in right now. Right? Like, Okay, fine, but it doesn't come across that way it comes across as I value you more now, because you are in a smaller body and you don't know why that person is in a smaller body. You don't know if it's because they're battling cancer, you don't know if it's because they're in the throes of a bout of, you know, a severe eating disorder, you don't know if it's depression, you don't know, you know, like, you don't know what it is. And you don't know that they think it's great that they are losing weight, or whatever. So. Okay, so with that, since we all kind of get comments about or have gotten comments about our bodies. Do you deal with this at all with your clients? Or like how they handle that because it happens in the workplace to write like, this isn't just our friends making comments, it's, we're surrounded by it?

Keri Baker 52:30

Yeah, I think that's a really good question. And I think that there's a lot of variability about how you might approach those kinds of situations, mostly, depending on maybe where you are in like, your place of acceptance around like, do I want to talk about this? Like, what's my like, confidence level? For me, I might be able to, like easily say to someone, like in a gentle way, like, you know, what I really don't like to talk about like bodies. I don't really like other people's bodies, like I you know, if you want to, well, I feel that way totally down for that. But if not, let's just move on with what we're doing. I think for a lot of people in the beginning, when they talk to you, it resonates with them sometimes to either do the real basic thing of like, change the conversation, right? Just like Darkspawn change the conversation and hope that people understand the nuance of like, you asked me something, I don't really want to like engage in a conversation and leaving, right. And especially in group situations where people are really like getting into it, it can be really easy to just excuse yourself, right? I'm gonna go do like, I have a meeting, or I just kind of excused herself from the conversation. If you're feeling like, I think that people tend to sometimes get nervous about singing songs, they feel like they don't have all the answers. They're nervous to, like, start a conversation and have people hit them back with questions or like not agree with them. So I think that can be really scary. But if you're feeling like you might be able to like tiptoe a little bit into the waters. I think it's Okay to say to someone, I feel like it like I don't feel super comfortable, like having conversations like that, right? Or oh, you just made that comment about someone and like, oh, like, it doesn't feel good to me. Right? Like no judgement, but like, it doesn't feel really good to me when I hear other people say things like that. So I think there's I don't think there's one right answer to it. I think a lot of it is taking off the judgment, right? That if you don't want to engage like it is not your job to educate everyone else on that. I felt that way for a while in the beginning. Like I had to educate people about this, people must know, I'm going to change everyone's mind. That's typically not what happens. People are not always super open minded to this kind of thing, especially in groups. I think if you're like one on one with friends that might be a little bit different. So take the judgment away, like off of yourself that you need to be an educator and the first thing you should do is to focus on what's going to feel safe and right and best for me in this situation in terms of engaging or just like totally getting situation.

Erica D'Eramo 54:54

Yeah, I think that's really that's really helpful because the world is evolving a different aces, right? Like different people have different levels of awareness. And if you're not, if you're not following the Instagram folks like yourself, yeah, because actually anyone like listening who is wanting to know more about this, like, I definitely recommend giving Carrie a follow. But there are there there is awareness coming to the surface, I think people are starting to question where they're at. But like, not everyone is in those spheres, not everyone is having those conversations. And so people will sometimes be really well meaning and make a misstep. And sometimes it's not well, meaning sometimes it is meant to, you know, I don't know replicate harm that was done to them, and they're lashing out or angry or trying to exert power or, or put you in your place. And so I think those get handled differently. But I agree like getting yourself to a place that's safe and putting yourself and your wellness at the forefront is what's most important for for anyone listening that's like, Hmm, this some of this is resonating. Maybe I have a complicated relationship with food, like what are some of the indicators that you would have folks maybe take stock of that they should they could consider?

Keri Baker 56:09

Yeah, I think a lot of big fashion, even when it comes to the question of like, is this just like, disordered eating? Like, is this an eating disorder, right, we get like, caught up in this spectrum of like, how bad is this? Like, how bad is this right now? For me? I think a lot of it has to do with the impact that it's having on your life, right? I always ask clients when we talk about this, like how if you had to put a percentage and this is not an easy question, but interesting to think about, if you had to put a percentage on how much time of your day you spend thinking about food, thinking about your body? Like where would you put that right? Is it 5% of your day? Is it 80% of your day, right? So where would you put yourself on that spectrum? Also, how much stress is causing you? If zero is no stress? And 10 is like the worst stress you've ever felt in your life? Like, where would you scale yourself on that can kind of be a nice way just to see. And that doesn't mean that even if you're under two, that doesn't mean that you might not still need some help, right? Even if it feels like on the lower level, if it's causing stress, if it's causing difficulties, right? If you are avoiding things, right, I won't go to this party, because there's going to be food there. I don't want to have to interact with it, or because I don't know what I'm gonna wear, I'm gonna stare at myself in the mirror for an hour, and I'm gonna change 17 times, right? I think those are almost the easier ways to see like, Oh, like this is having an impact. I'm not I didn't go out with my friends. You know, I didn't go to that birthday party, because I felt so stressed out about that. If you are having any, if you are sitting right now listening to this and saying, there's a slight possibility that there is something going on here, I don't know what to do. Go get like get help, right? That's Okay. You don't have to be, you know, basically, again, going back to where it started, like you do not have to have a diagnosed eating disorder, to be really struggling with these kind of relationships. If you feel bad about yourself, you don't know how to cook for yourself, you don't know how to eat right? For so long that you don't even know what to do like you deserve to have to be going to see a clinician or even a dietitian or someone who specializes in these things, or maybe reading like the intuitive eating. I find that for a lot of people when they read that. If it ends up being this like mind blowing thing where it's like, holy shit, there's another way to think about this. You might want to take what's happening for you in your day to day in terms of like behaviors around food and body. Or listen to a podcast right maintenance space, like you said, it's a really great one, the BMI, I always recommend that BMI episode on Maintenance Phase as like a first one for people to listen to, just because BMI is like such a loaded topic. And they are like the experts at really, the research. I couldn't even be about half the things they said because I listened to it so long ago at this point, but being able to deep dive into some of that or follow like some of the, you know, Instagram accounts and say is this person talking about food and body in a way that feels really foreign to me, then maybe there's like some exploration to do there. But again, I want to reiterate that if you if there's any struggle going on for you, if they're like you deserve to have someone to help you. I wish that I had had someone say that to me years ago, like you seem like you're struggling. This is something you think about a lot it is something that you like these are life around like you deserve someone to talk to about this and help sorted out, right and that doesn't mean that you need a diagnosis or any one medication or that that's not right for you. But there are people out there myself included, who will work with people like I point that the rat, right and really try to help you figure out like what do you want for your life and how can we help you make that?

Erica D'Eramo 56:09

Yeah, and how, and again, like how to deal with the influences around you as well like the conversations that you might need to have with your mom about hey, we're not going to talk about that here. I I can't have you body shaming yourself in front of my kids or we're not going to calorie count right now. We're going to you know, eat until we're satiated, like these other things that start to like that you maybe weren't even cognizant of. But I think that's one of the really valuable parts of interacting with people getting support is learning how to start setting some of those boundaries that are healthy, that will help you kind of navigate the space for the long term because we're all unlearning micro learning stuff.

Keri Baker 1:00:21

Yeah, I feel like validated that those are real things, right? Talking to your mom about her dieting history, and like the way you would like her to act on her. I had to do right, like that was really hard. And I was very lucky that I that the person I did that was responsive and carry, like had incited could reflect but like, that's not everybody's story. And so do not underestimate like how difficult these things can be. And that you don't have to do it by yourself. If it's something that you feel like, you can't figure out.

Erica D'Eramo 1:00:53

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So if people do want to find more or connect with you, what's what's the best way to do that?

Keri Baker 1:01:01

Yeah, internet's probably the best way. And I like blog posts up there all about intuitive eating. And so people want to go, I try to put as much free content as possible. On the blog, I haven't written one in a while, but I was I was on a good roll last year for a while. So you can, you can read those. It's just a keribaker.com - Keri's K E R I, and @keribakercounseling on Instagram, which is where I try to post again, social media, like you love it, you hate it, you want to use it, you don't want to use it. So when I feel motivated, I go on. But I also have a lot of free content on there. And I'll be posting a lot of other creators on Instagram, which I think is helpful to be able to follow other people. Yeah, and I'm in southern Florida, if people are interested in like therapy services, you have to either be in Florida, like physically in Florida, or I can technically see people who are in Vermont. I do have an office in the Tampa area. So I do see people in person there too.

Erica D'Eramo 1:01:57

Cool. Well, Vermont. That's, I mean, yeah.

Keri Baker 1:02:02

It's easy to get telehealth license there.

Erica D'Eramo 1:02:03

Yeah, yeah.

Keri Baker 1:02:05

I did it. We'll see. We'll see how long...

Erica D'Eramo 1:02:06

Yeah. And I do wish that telehealth were more, you know, easily accessible across across the country, because especially being what right now we're in Maine and finding folks who are finding a provider period for a lot of different, whatever specialties is tough. But finding someone who you click with and can establish maybe who shares some of your, you know, marginalized identities can be even tougher. So

Keri Baker 1:02:37

The good news is clinically, there are some like counseling compacts that should be coming down the pike. Like for psychologists now, there is something called sai pact. Or you can find someone who is part of AIPAC, they can technically practice in like a bunch of different states. There's one that's supposed to be coming for LMH C's, like licensed mental health counselors, and NASW, which is the Social Work board. They're all working on it. So hopefully more soon. So hopefully, like in the next few years, things like that will become a little bit more easy. I think what you're talking about is like to find specialist providers can be really difficult. things easier.

Erica D'Eramo 1:03:13

Yeah, absolutely. Well, we'll include a link to your website in our show notes, as well as your Instagram. And yeah, and we'll tag you when we share this, this post. And I really appreciate you coming on and delving into some stuff that was, you know, some tougher topics that folks probably don't even realize they're already grappling with. So yeah, thanks, Keri.

Keri Baker 1:03:36

Yeah. Thanks so much for having me the opportunity to talk about this. All of this.

Erica D'Eramo 1:03:42

Yeah, absolutely. And for anyone wanting to find the transcript for this, or a summary of this episode, you can check out our website at twopiersconsulting.com. And again, we'll include links to Keri's resources, and we look forward to seeing you next episode.