Erica D'Eramo 0:05

Hello and welcome to the Two Piers podcast. I'm your host, Erica D'Eramo. And today we have guest LaToia Burkley joining us to talk about one of my absolute favorite topics, which is resilience. As we know I have a bit of a love hate relationship with the concept of resilience. And so we're gonna dissect that and look into it and maybe differentiate between resilience and endurance and look at how this word is used for different people, different communities, and how we conceptualize it in our society.

Erica D'Eramo 0:48

We are super lucky to have LaToia joining us today. So LaToia specializes in activating, educating, and elevating the voices of women professionals so that they can serve at their highest sense of self while gaining clarity along their career journey. LaToia is a goal-oriented certified diversity coach as well as a highly skilled, innovative and energetic business professional. In her work with clients, she draws on her background identifying, prioritizing maximizing opportunities and orchestrating solutions in the Human Resources and business operations space. As a certified professional diversity coach or a CPDC. LaToia also helps clients get crystal clear on their inclusion and equity focus and hold space for helping leaders think differently about differences. LaToia also works with executive leaders and organizations on strategies for building inclusive workplaces and DEI action planning. She holds a Professional Certified Coach credential or a PCC from the International Coaching Federation. And when she's not helping clients with professional development, she enjoys traveling, taking in new sites and cultures, reading and scrapbooking. She also happens to be fluent in Portuguese. So welcome, LaToia! Obrigada! I'm so happy to have you here.

LaToia Burkley 2:10

De nada! É um prazer ter essa conversa com você e com as pessoas que ouvirão isso depois. Um, I just want to say probably something that your listeners don't know. It was easy for me to accept this guest invitation to your platform because, humble listener, I can tell you that it's possible to vibe with someone over email. Because I did it with you. Erica and I have had some intersectionality, our paths have crossed with the ICF New England chapter. And we've worked on some things together, we've worked around some things together. And I had not met anyone who I was able to vibe with over written communication like I did with you. So ever so grateful to be with you on the podcast today. Talk about resilience. And I do want to kind of give a little caveat. I will stand 10 toes down on the idea that I'm not the resilience expert, I think where our conversation is going to lead us is I would love to demystify some things related to resilience. Gosh, there's more than enough going on in our current climate when we just center women, but then more specifically, women of color. When we talk about resilience versus endurance, I think our conversation is gonna lead to all of that. And then also, on this westernized side of the world, every germ that has ever been, every germ that has ever been created. I'm sure dysentery is like out there somewhere just waiting to be, for a body to inhabit them. I am also coming off the back end of Long COVID This that COVID cough that just will never go away. If you've ever had COVID, which I had for the first time. I dodged it for over three years and finally got it. Don't have it now. But certainly my body has felt like I've had it for the last almost like 40 days. So I may have to mute out but you may see me cough. I don't I just want to be respectful of the platform. And yeah, like I'm not at full lung capacity yet, either. It's just it's a lot, but it's just so happy to be here with you.

Erica D'Eramo 4:16

Yeah, well, I appreciate you kind of pushing through? Garnering that resilience, to be meta? No, just kidding. Yeah, no, I I agree that I feel like everyone I know right now is recovering from some illness that has resurfaced that normally we only see in childhood like strep and I don't know I mean, I'm hearing that Measles is going around now. Just all sorts of crazy stuff. So I think a lot of us are not at 100% and we are still showing up into our lives in whatever capacity we can. So I do appreciate you coming in. Absolutely mute away and cough away. Keep your lungs working.

LaToia Burkley 5:01

Thank you. Thank you so much. I appreciate that.

Erica D'Eramo 5:04

So, I love to hear kind of the origin story of my guests. I know I introduced you with some of like, you know, the key highlights but what, what brought us the LaToia of today? Like, what was your kind of journey like?

LaToia Burkley 5:20

Well, one of the biggest call outs, I think I have in my intro is I asked myself, when was the last time you picked up a scrapbook. It's been a really long time since I've done anything related to scrapbooking. And I feel like that was a very flash-in-the-pan moment. When I transitioned, I lived in Atlanta, Georgia for quite some time, just about 20 years before I moved up to New England, Providence, Rhode Island specifically, and I want to say like, it's probably been, I don't know that I picked up a scrapbook or have done some hallmarking or bought like scissors that have wild designs on them to cut various shapes. I don't think I've done that in quite some time. So I may want to revisit my bio, I think that's number one. Number two, origin story for me, the human. If you have like, if you can put the US map in your mind, right. I was born in Chicago, Illinois. My dad took a baseball scholarship to Arizona State University when I was a baby, a kid, and moved the family to Phoenix, Arizona, which is where I stayed until high school. And I would say when I think about my identity as a whole, I tell a lot of people I knew that I was a Black girl. I knew that I was Black probably long before I knew I was a girl. And that was based on my community environment, coming from a very Afro-centric family coming from a family that, and an environment on the south side of Chicago where you didn't question, who you were, you were taught maybe your ancestral heritage, you were taught roots. You were taught where you came from. And you never had to do it in a space where, you were never taught that your hair was ugly. The the executive director and the most prestigious bank looked like you just as much as the street sweeper looks like you, it was almost a very, you know, to cue the term it was it was a mini Wakanda. And I had that for a hot moment. And then going into Phoenix, Arizona in a predominantly in, in in a predominantly white neighborhood in predominantly white spaces. Certainly an all white schools that that shaped just a lot of my being and upbringing. After high school I moved to Atlanta, Georgia, maybe a few stops in between. Traveling. Portuguese comes from a whole host of things. But Portuguese is my second language, I have used it in various sectors, proud to say that I also coach in Portuguese. It's like shameless plug, I would like to be doing some more of it in 2024, for Your Big Debut. That's really the human side of me, I love to read. I talk to people from the time that I open my eyes every day. And as an introvert, my social battery runs out very quickly. So really, when I get through what would be considered a work day, I'm typically just very, there's not a lot of mental real estate, for connection. So in 2024, my guide word, or the word that I put things through a filter on is connection, I want to challenge some of my own social boundaries, both for myself and then for the business for Your Big Debut. And see what happens in 2024. And more opportunities to be in community with like minded individuals like yourself, more opportunities to be outside, and be outside a little bit. We've got some events planned for Your Big Debut throughout 2024. I'm trying to do more within the community. And just again, to kind of stretch that social boundary. Every one, every time I say I'm wildly introverted, someone like pops out of a closet. And it's like, you can't be, you're, there's no way because you like to speak to people and you can command an audience. And let me tell you, I'm here to say that there's not, it's not a blanket label for those of the extroverted community. I like to recharge alone.

Erica D'Eramo 9:22

Yeah, I really empathize with that both as like an introverted coach and entrepreneur, someone who really loves to connect with people and hear their stories and walk alongside them on their journey. And also, I get this all the time too, "but you're not shy. You're not quiet." It's like oh, yes, but once you see me past my social quota battery time, my my partner calls it like, Cinderella time. Like oh, she's turned into a pumpkin the clock cuz, like the social battery has diminished, and we are now turning into a pumpkin. So once again...

LaToia Burkley 10:08

Yeah, same.

Erica D'Eramo 10:10

I love this, I love the theme too of a word of the year, my word of the year this year is actually embodied. Because I think, for me, I'm trying to listen to the cues that my physical body has been telling me, which sometimes that is around the people that I'm around, the type of work I'm doing, like, what is it telling me? And who do I need to be around more? And maybe who do I need to be around a little less so so that I can make the most of the social battery that I do have. So that's, that's my, that's my word of the year this year. So, but hopefully, hopefully, listeners who are hearing this now can maybe be part of that network and connect with you. And so at the end of this episode, we'll talk about how people can reach out learn more about your Your Big Debut, and the work you do.

LaToia Burkley 11:05

I would love that. I absolutely would love that.

Erica D'Eramo 11:06

Yeah. So in terms of this concept of resilience, like how this term gets used, how, like, what what's your sort of, you know, operating thesis on this, like, what are your your type top line thoughts? And, and maybe, maybe we can also talk about, like, how it relates to the work that you do as well. But

LaToia Burkley 11:32

Yeah, so. So when I think about resilience, the first like word picture that comes into mind or just picture itself, I see someone braving the wind, right, a very strong wind. And they may not be walking through the wind. I mean, it's just anywhere I can think of visiting family in Chicago, the Windy City, and literally watching people have to brace themselves when that hard wing comes off a Lake Michigan, so they're literally not toppled over. Now, they're not necessarily advancing forward in that wind, but they're stable, right? Or they've got their they're bracing their stuff. So from this like hard impact. When I think resilience, I think a bit of that. That is the picture that comes to mind to have some stability in the face of what might be forceful, or what might be pushing one or up against an opposing force. Here's, here's where I think resilience goes wrong. Again, let me say that I'm not the resilience expert. I would love for your listeners to reach out to me, I've got some definite. I've got some fellow coaches who in the wellbeing space, they eat, sleep, breathe, write, repeat resilience, specifically to the care of an individual, to the care of community, which I think is a huge outlier. I read maybe it was an HBR article, it may have been a news article, some sort of professional development article about what is the competitive edge for new leaders like you've never led people before, but you're moving into a people leadership space, resilience was identified as top in this article that I had read. And I see that often I come from a very strict and stringent corporate background. Yes, I run my own consulting and coaching practice now. But have almost 20 plus years, in the corporate space, I have been drinking, stale office break room coffee, and asset managed laptop, maybe a parking space or two since I was 19. I have seen a lot I have heard a lot done a lot. And in the space of resilience and thinking of, you know, professional development tool that one can put in their toolbox. This gets listed often. I just wonder when we say "hey, Erica, know that you are going through this personal challenge or your team is going through this professional challenge. It's time for you to channel that resilient Erica." What I'm finding especially for two groups that intersect wildly: women and women of color. I don't know that resilience as a tool is serving the individual. And so I ask, when we are, "we" the general we are telling people, women specifically, to be resilient and to really, we hear the term "grit" thrown around a lot. Whose agenda is that serving? Is my resiliency serving your agenda. Is it really serving me? Where does resilience lean me into scarcity mindset? Where does what happens when resilience goes wrong? And I feel like certainly in my work at Your Big Debut, executive coaching, consulting, professional development, inclusion, belonging, equity practices, all that is in our bucket wheelhouse. We are working with women professionals, typically mid to senior level in their career. That's a great chunk of our customer profile as well as this year, bringing on board more of the college to career track women professionals, and those that our westernized world deems as emerging leaders, you are stepping into a new people leadership role. These buzzwords are thrown out a lot, resilience can be the space where if I put it in a professional lens, I am a manager. Something has happened on my team, we didn't make the sales, we're missing our bottom line. But I can take a bad situation or what would what might be deemed as adverse. And I can pull some through lines, be them lessons, be them positive moments. And I can stay the course, resilience as my long winded resilience. That is what comes to mind. very nuanced, the resilience experts can probably give you a whole bunch of other sub definitions, all would be correct. When we are talking about women in their professional development paths, specifically career pathing, and how they should define success, grit and resilience typically... Weapon might be the word? And we see resiliency and grit, not serving women. Hard stop. You see resilience and grit turning into "Stick this out. And it's bad for you."

Erica D'Eramo 16:41

Yeah.

LaToia Burkley 16:42

"Stay in this place that is harming you, because that's what resilience is, y'all learn how to push through." And I hear often in my practice, I can think of three clients, top of mind, who have said to me push through is my strategy. That's me being resilient. But that push through is not serving them.

Erica D'Eramo 17:04

So I love this image of the wind, because that is dynamic, right? And this is the thing about resilience that I think gets lost in the messaging so much that, true resilience is dynamic, right? This is about struggles coming and then leaving and how are you after the struggle comes and goes, right? Like resilience is really this measure of, "Are you stronger after the hardship happened? Or are you injured after the hardship happened?" And so this idea, like when when you talk about clients who are told just like just be just be more resilient, this is where you need to tap into your resilience, like resilience is kind of the outcome or like that, the assessment of what's happening versus something that you can just do, you can't like, you can't just do the resilience, especially in an environment that is harming you. So that that's more like this endurance, right, like, just stick it out. When I hear stick it out. Like that doesn't tell me whether it's going to be a resilient outcome at the end of it. That just says, you just put up with a lot.

LaToia Burkley 18:16

Yep.

Erica D'Eramo 18:16

Right. And I think we interchange those words in a way that is

LaToia Burkley 18:23

100%

Erica D'Eramo 18:23

...not helpful.

LaToia Burkley 18:25

100% 100%. Now, the flip side to that is, there also is a delicate balance. Where we talk about resilience, again, as an outcome, resilience as a byproduct, resilience as a result of the thing or the action. And we go back to that picture, someone really braving the wind, leaned in, it's hard, but they're finding some stability. And then when that wind stops, yeah, they may be wind disheveled, but they can kind of put it back together. I think there are times in our life, especially in our professional world where we're knocked over. Yeah, and we had this adverse challenge and it completely, knocked, we fell down. Resilience, we don't stay down.

Erica D'Eramo 19:14

Right

LaToia Burkley 19:14

Resilience, we garner support to get up, or to do the thing different or to make the number or to hire the team that's actually going to move these actions forward, whatever that might be. The balance is, in resilience. Yep. Think push through can be the extreme, especially when it's not serving us, but I just got to do it because that's me garnering my resilience, and I'm gonna, you know, I gotta keep pushing through that just keep pushing. And if that's generating these adverse behaviors, and you're not the person who you want to be at home, you're not the person who you want to be with your partner and you're not the person who you want to be when you're at the gym. Is that serving you? The flip side of that is where we start to emerge into the word endurance. There are times when, yeah, you might have to sit in the hard thing. And it's not a matter of, if we go back to the picture, braving the wind and then just letting oneself be bowled over, so not looking for stability, not looking for support, proactively letting the wind do what it what it will with us. Endurance says there is going to be some times where you might not need to stick it out. But you might need to collect some more data. And I guess if we made this even more tangible, let's take the example, I mean, how often do you hear the word toxic workplace? I'm really tired of using the word toxic to preface things, just FYI. And... in a toxic work environment: I am working in an area of, geographically in an area that doesn't serve, me culturally I'm in a work environment that doesn't serve me. When I say doesn't serve me I am walking away from work everyday feeling less than. I am not engaged in my work. You know, you name it, I'm quiet quitting and I'm you know, I've benched myself, I am mentally exhausted. The burnout has, the overwhelm has turned into burnout. I don't have anything left. That's what I mean by "not serving me." And resilience, someone being told to garner their resilience or tap into their inner resilience. Yeah, but not at the cost of my mental health. Or not at the cost of my physical health, not at the cost of my talent, gifts and expertise. Endurance, have I have I been in this situation long enough to deem it quote, toxic, or deem these behaviors performative? Do I need some more data? And I think where this conversation gets really, really juicy, where there's no real binary answer is, it's going to depend on you as the individual, it's going to depend on what's important to you, your values, your Northstar, and most importantly, what's your "why"?

Erica D'Eramo 22:06

Yeah.

LaToia Burkley 22:06

I think when we have the question, when we have the conversation about resilience in any way, shape, or form, that's what I miss. I missed the dialogue of the "why." Got it. If I'm sticking it out, why am I sticking it out? If I'm ready to cut bait, why am I doing that? And do and does my "why" align with a "how"?

Erica D'Eramo 22:25

That... this... Yes, this really crystallizes the part around us getting sidetracked into striving for the endurance for the sake of it, because, you know, we can't let them win or I can't give up or right like this framing that we've moralized endurance in a way that kind of tricks us into distraction from the real why? So like, what is the end goal? And the end goal might be financial stability, right? Like you can't afford it. But that's fine. putting food on the table is a very real, why, if the why is because I can't let them win. Like who, what, who, who cares, take your ball and go home. They set the rules, they set the you know, they like, you don't need to play a game that you didn't sign up for. Your life isn't a game. And I think that, especially when we socialize little girls, and then young women, and then adult women to constantly strive for the like external measure of being well behaved, or getting the A or getting the gold star, whatever that is, taking fewer risks, like it's very easy to kind of get distracted, you know, and say, well, that's the goal that's been set for me. So I have to keep enduring instead of deciding what my own goal is, and taking my ball and going home.

LaToia Burkley 23:53

Yeah, 100%. And one of the things that really separates Your Big Debut from a lot of coaching practices: were very needs based. And that can be a broad stroke. But I say that to say, as a coach, I don't operate from a very cookie cutter standard, I operate from a methodology and a philosophy versus a this light turned green, so, a Pavlovian response, if you will. Right.

Erica D'Eramo 24:19

Right.

LaToia Burkley 24:19

This turned green. So then we need to do this automatically with every client. We honor all identities, we honor the wholeness of an individual. And when I say that, I mean, there's nothing that an individual needs to strip away of themselves, to find success or to build their career path, or to get to their big why or to determine their values. All of that is welcomed in a space of no shame, no blame, no judgement, right. Suspending that judgment and having that space to work with a thought partner in a thought provoking way to help move your action forward. Maybe even say some things out loud, that you never said and then most importantly to our tagline. "Get clarity along your career journey and increase confidence along the way." I say all of that to say where you're, you know, picking out the and how we conditioned little girls that turn into young women so on and so forth, this goalpost that consistently moves. Yeah, overlay that with some other identities like ethnicity, like race, like geography, like educational background, and now we're talking about, well, "I can't let him win, I can't let him win because I can't fail." Who said you were failing? "Well, I come from a family of non quitters." Tell me what non quitter means. "We stick it out, we don't give up. And my grandma, my great grandma and my grandparents, they have these stories of hardship, strife and struggle. And I'm not going to burn down that legacy by giving up, by not doing the absolute best. They told me I had to have a bachelor's, I'm going to get a master's. They told me I needed to be certified, I'm gonna go be double certified." Most people in turn, I probably can't quantify that, a number of people may put that in their resilience bucket, and it outwardly may appear to be serving them. And then they've never identified a why. It stems from the generational ideologies that they've pulled with them that may or may not be serving them. Think when we talk about this space of resilience versus like endurance, great, but what are also the generational cultural and societal norms that one may have to divorce or separate themselves from, to really get to what's most important? "Can't fail." Who told you you were failing? "Don't know what it's like to say no." What examples in your past have you seen people say, yes? Where have you seen other people take their ball and go home, and it actually was better for them, than to stay in a culture of performance of behavior, or, quote, a toxic work culture, or a space that was going to leave you feeling less than? Pushing through, a "push through philosophy" that leaves you less of your authentic self is not a push through philosophy. It's not right. It's not cool. That's not cool.

Erica D'Eramo 27:15

I mean, the irony here is that, you know, as I'm thinking about, you know, families that have immigration in their past, you know, lineage of immigration, moving countries, uprooting cultural shifts, ironically, that is an example of resilience of going through the hard thing to get a better outcome to change the environment to change this to go after some opportunity that has the potential for better future rewards or safety or security. And so, so many of these situations, when we speak with clients can be reframed in that way of like, we're shifting our investment of energy here and withdrawing it from this account to reinvest it in another account that might pay better dividends. Like we would never call someone who takes out who says, Oh, this fund isn't performing to the way I thought it was, let me take my money out from there and re put it in to this other venture. We would never say like, "oh, you're quitting." Right? And this goes back to the data piece, right? It's about like, Do you have a track record? Is it gonna turn around? Will it actually pay a dividend? Or are you just sticking it out, because that in and of itself has been in you know, internalized as a value somehow?

LaToia Burkley 28:40

100% and the space where a, yep, generationally, we've seen the struggle, we've seen the success stories, to your point, there was an outcome there was, there was a shift from powerless, to powerful. And it served the era, the time, the language, the lexicon, it served the geography, we've grown, shaped and adapted. And it's Okay to honor those stories that in no way shape or form, do I want you or your listeners to walk away thinking that they, those those ancestral stories that we hold so close to heart don't serve us, they do! And, that type of resiliency, does it still, does it stand up in 2024, when we have things like ChatGPT, and we have different resources and we can create different outcomes that our ancestors could not, our grandparents could not. And if that's all you know, say that. If you're scared to do something different, say that. And now let's coach to the fear. And now let's examine or reexamine those disempowering beliefs that have you standing up to the, "It was good for my grandma. It was good for my great great great grandmother. And it's gonna be good for me. In 2024, the essence of it might be, but the execution probably isn't.

Erica D'Eramo 29:59

Yes, right. That's the, that's the common thread like, what... That like overused trope of don't try to follow in their footsteps, like seek what they sought. There is, how you do that resilience will have to change over over the years, right? It'll have to evolve and what was an adaptive, well-adaptive strategy for our previous generations may no longer be adaptive, right? Sometimes they become maladaptive as the world changes. And as we change, so yeah, yeah.

LaToia Burkley 30:34

So if we move on this spectrum, and we move away from resilience, and we talk about endurance, if I had the state similar, if I had a picture that came to mind, I'm thinking of like a marathon and give them a runner. Someone who does not wake up after who does not wake up, who is probably mildly inactive, like LaToia, Burkley, and go, you know, "I think I can do 26 miles today." What's tomorrow's February 1, I think I can do 26 miles. I can do a quarter of a mile right without needing some paramedic assistance. Endurance is a muscle that you build. Yes, resilience is a muscle as well, if we're using in the right term, if it's shaping the right way, if it aligns with my values, not resilience to serve someone else's agenda, right? It's a muscle that you build, just like a marathon runner who starts from 5k has never ran a marathon, but can get through three miles, Okay, well, there's going to be a series of training, there's going to be probably some dietary changes, there'll be some routine changes. They're going to have to be some things that are consistent, versus an individual, benching them to see if we think about from a professional lens, benching themselves, because you know what, I tried it once, and it's just not going to work. And I gotta get out of here. Cutting bait too early. Endurance says, "Yep, this is hard. It's challenging. What do I need to keep going? I've already done the assessment that this serves me, it's an alignment with my values, my Y is very defined, and outcome will be X, Y, and Z. So how do I keep this going? How do I get through midterms? How do I get to graduation? I've got my sights on this particular role. This particular company, this promotion, I've done steps one through five. Six, seven, and eight are going to be really hard based on my mental energy, my emotional energy, my family makeup, how does one keep going?" Well, in a marathon, people are on the street handing me water, I'm supported.

Erica D'Eramo 32:37

Yes!

LaToia Burkley 32:39

I have a pace, I have a level of consistency, there are actions as a runner, I am not a runner in any way, shape, or form, there are actions as a runner that I've done consistently. I've kept up with my training schedule. I've done my six miles every week or six miles every day, I reduced the amount of sugar that I've eaten, I've increased my carbs, I have these repeatable behaviors that will keep me on course, and I have support. I have a trainer, I have a Run Club. I have the people when I'm actually in the marathon handing me water, cheering me on telling me I can do it. I've got my playlist in my ear, right? Endurance is no different, professionally or personally. Repeatable behaviors. It's gonna get hard... it's not even hard. You see it's gonna get hard. What do I need to change? What's going to serve me? What does support look like for me in these models? And I think when we talk about things like support and having those repeatable behaviors, I think this pairs very well with when we get into the space of like, competence and impostor syndrome. And, yes, if I found this side of resilience it was, I don't want it to... "never let them see you sweat." I used to say that all the time. We're thinking that, "never let them see you sweat." I'm not, you know, I'm gonna stick it out because they need to see this version of me push through, I'm not going to fail. I'm not going to be doomed to failure. I'm not going to be deemed a low performer. I'm not gonna be deemed lazy. If that's one side, and the other side is endurance. How does one not get out of the game too early? Repeatable behaviors? Yeah. Whew! Okay. I'm here now. And I don't feel like I shouldn't be here and someone is gonna find me out. And I'm actually really scared. I would love to do the thing. But I don't want to be called an expert, because I'm not an expert. I mean, I just I just put together this Google Doc, and it turned into a book, that doesn't make me an author.

LaToia Burkley 34:35

Yep.

LaToia Burkley 34:37

It does! And... that negative self talk that comes up along the way that says, I don't even know why you're doing scotch, they're gonna find you out. They're gonna they're gonna see that you're not as smart as what you've kind of projected yourself to be. You're having such a hard time putting together your resume because you don't know how to articulate your acknowledgments because you haven't owned them. You've said "We the team, we do this." And you want to not err on the side of arrogance, and to be humble, I need to just stay in this space. Not saying that's right or wrong or in between, I'm not even assigning value to it. I'm just saying that those are the things that help cosign impostor syndrome, which is not an inside job alone.

Erica D'Eramo 35:16

Yeah. So I want to delve more into impostor syndrome and how that ties into this and like, pull that apart a little. I do want to touch back on your marathon example, because, a) I actually relate to that a lot. Because I did, I used to run marathons. And, ironically, the first marathon I ran was the Marine Corps Marathon in 2001. In DC, it was late September, I think, or early October of 2001. We ran past the Pentagon, there was a big gaping hole in the Pentagon, it was like, this memory was like seared in, in my brain. I had trained for that for like a year, right? There was a young woman who joined us that day, didn't train at all, managed to finish the marathon, beat my time. And it turns out that my time was terrible. And my splits were terrible. It turns out, I ran that marathon with mono. I ran that marathon with mononucleosis, I got diagnosed the next day. But I had such a mentality of like, divorcing myself from what my body was telling me and just pushing through no matter what. And so that, that's an example here where I'll differentiate between endurance and resilience. Because after that, I did so much damage, I gave myself shin splints, even though I had trained, right, but because I didn't listen to my body, and I wasn't cued in. I had a very long recovery from mono, it took forever, but I but hey, I did it. Right. Like I finished, I finished. I got them, I got the thing. And so I just think this is where like teaching people to, to really take in the whole of like, why are you? Why are you doing this. And in that case, I was doing it to prove a point to myself, to prove a point to other people, I think, but it wasn't really because it was like a joy of running, it wasn't really because it was like the community around it, or the exploration or whatever, like it had detached from that true "why" that I had started with for running. And it took me a long time to find my way back to enjoying running again after after that. But the other piece that I really like about that metaphor is the support systems. And that's where when we talk about like, just be resilient, first of all, you've mentioned, it doesn't just happen on day one, these are muscles like the endurance is a feed into resilience, one of them. But those build up over time, in theory, unless you're the one lady who managed to like run the marathon without any training. I hope she's doing great things. So, and it requires, like, the research really does show that if you want to increase the likelihood of resilient outcomes, there has to be community or support structures around it's not just the individual. And in this, like very individualistic society that we are in, in, in this country specifically, I think we really lose sight of that. And so this is where like, coaching is part of that, right? Like working with a coach can help with that. But it's also around like, who else is in your community that's building you up? And so tying that back into the imposter syndrome too, it's like, if you're getting messages that you don't belong here, who who is around you, you know, where, where is that coming from? And it's not just this individual thing that we're supposed to fix on a dime by like, pulling it out from ourselves, right? That it's, it's hiding in there, we can just like decide, I will be resilient and I will not have imposter syndrome, you know imposter phenomenon and I will whatever, it's it's more than that. There is like a systems factor here that needs to be taken into account

LaToia Burkley 35:19

100%. At either end of the spectrum, when used, I will say properly in air quotes, right? Resilience as a tool, regardless of your lot in life, your geography, your identity, used to, used as an outcome. The hard thing is here, the hard thing is being done and how do you look afterward? What are, what are the through lines in the hard thing? Got it. Still serving you, still serving your values still, you know, aligned with what's important to you? Yet resilience, a communal sport. Endurance, yes. Gotten through some hard things, need to finish getting through the hard things that align with my why, my values are intact. It's what's most important to me. It serves me at my core level, I am not going to be left less-than, I will not have adverse reactions. Endurance is not sitting at the job that's telling you your less than and just taking those microaggressions that's not resilience or endurance. Just to, you, you're gonna take it? Just taking, just taking discrimination to the face. No, neither is that resilience nor endurance. And endurance, communal sport, both require a sense of community. Hard stop.

Erica D'Eramo 39:27

Yeah, yeah, that's where the I think that this has really, the conversation around resilience really jumps the shark when it just alleviates either individuals or systems of their responsibility. And it like when a manager says to an employee, like you just need to be resilient here like, well, that's a great way for you to offload your responsibility for making an, you know, for creating a conducive work environment, and just putting all the onus on somebody who is probably either underrepresented or underserved or has no one else there that is an ally to them, and, and alleviating yourself of the responsibility. So tell me a little bit more about this, about the connection here and some of the cosigners for impostor syndrome or impostor phenomenon.

LaToia Burkley 41:29

Oh, yeah, yeah. Yah, yah, yah, yah, yah. Well, what comes to mind is, it was an article in The New Yorker not too long ago that aligns with the TED Talk. Oh, tell me her name. Erica, because I'm drawing a blank. But the both are in conjunction and I believe the HBR article, Stop Telling Women They Have Imposter Syndrome. Stop.

Erica D'Eramo 41:30

Yeah, yeah.

LaToia Burkley 41:35

The term as a whole. The term as a whole, I'm not very married to, that doesn't resonate with me. Imposter syndrome. That doesn't resonate.

Erica D'Eramo 42:04

Yeah.

LaToia Burkley 42:05

It may resonate with others. I think the if that's the problem, the root of the problem is negative self talk. And when we talk about, I talk about a lot in practice, who's co-signing that negative self talk? Yep. It's an inside job. It's the way that I think about myself, I talk about myself, I view myself, my own self perspective. But it also pairs well with environments that's going to just like a cosigner or guarantor is going to say, "Yeah, we approve." So if I'm working in an environment, that's high stress, it's a turn and burn. And I'm asked to perform and to deliver this thing. And I know that I'm on the chopping block for grammar errors. And I'm already you know, coming into the project with shaking hands. My, my existing negative self talk is gonna pair well with an environment where I'm reminded, where I have a leader who says, "We can replace you at anytime. Don't forget that."

Erica D'Eramo 43:08

Yeah.

LaToia Burkley 43:09

That a new "fill in the blank," a new vice president is just as easy as a phone call away. I have scores of applicants who we curbed to have you. If I'm absorbing that, not as a "Whoop, I did that!" And I'm absorbing that as "Oh my goodness, why am I here?" Then anytime I feel that way, that cultural environment at work is going to cosign on my imposter syndrome, or my negative self talk. Imposter syndrome as we know it, and as we talk about it, in our, in our world, at least within the US, and certainly through the lens of, you know, what does that mean? That word? No, there's plenty of external forces that's going to align great with that. If you're dealing with a leader or a boss or coworkers that are not self aware, they say things with no filter, they're egregious in their microinequities, and you're already feeling some type of way. Let's say cause you're an other? You're the first, "fill in the blank." You're the only woman, "fill in the blank," that this corporation has had? Oh, you better believe there's 1000 guarantors. Guarantors? Cosigners, 1000 cosigners, 1000 cosigners, to what you already may be feeling on the inside. So I think, it's helpful to acknowledge that. I don't think we name that enough. It's the same way I feel with, excuse me, confidence in women. We just go "You should be confident! And make sure you're confident when you go in that interview!" If I've never had the if I've never had the luxury, the privilege or the access to understand what competence means to me because of generational, societal, cultural norms that don't serve me, no, I don't, I'm not going to just walk out of bed, unlike the woman who ran the marathon out of nowhere, I'm not going to just put my feet on the floor and just, whew, feel confident. I can I can go back to the 80s and put on my power suit, I can do that. And those things are those things are viable, right? I can wear all red or, you know, whatever the industry experts say, I can do those things. Amy Cuddy does a lot of work on presence, in line with, like, confidence and how you can get your body to trick your brain into saying, "No, this will be fine. You are your biggest self in that room. Right?" All, I say all that to say those things almost go back to endurance. There's consistency in that. Learn to build confidence by many consistent behaviors. Confidence lies in the micro not the macro. What do you do on a day to day that demonstrates your competence and confidence may show up in equity of voice. Confidence may show up in holding your boundaries, understanding what serves you, for your mental capacity, your physical space, your spiritual space, your emotional space. Being able to say, "No actually server, I asked for dressing on the side, not on my salad, send this back." That's a type of confidence. I worked at a, I worked at a financial advising firm with some fantastic, I mean phenominal co-executive coaches. And Gala Jackson, shout out to Gala Jackson, her book comes out really soon, used to say all the time to clients, "If you can't advocate for yourself in this moment, who can you advocate for?" If the imposter syndrome and the negative self talk is bubbling up? And you can't ask for more money or you can't say that's actually not going to work for me? I cannot work this weekend, I cannot go on this work trip. I don't have enough care at home. I'm a caretaker, my partner and I don't I don't have the signals. We don't, we ain't got it. We ain't got it. If you can't advocate for yourself in the moment, who can you advocate for? And she used to give examples like, you know, maybe you're sitting at the negotiation table, and you want to pound, pound your fist on the table for 8% and not 3% merit increase? Well, if you can't advocate for yourself in the moment, you also take care of your mom, you pay mom's rent, you pay mom's, you know, you take care of prescription medication. Well, that money directly impacts your care to your parents. So advocate for your mom in the moment and slam your fist and ask for 8%.

Erica D'Eramo 47:46

Yeah.

LaToia Burkley 47:47

Or show the data. And it's not always probably planned like this, right, or show the data and ask for 8%. Anyway, you get what I'm saying. All of that is wrapped up into that impostor syndrome, negative self talk bucket as well.

Erica D'Eramo 47:59

I, when you mentioned, you know, feeling a little bit like complicated, I guess I'm putting words in your mouth, but around the term imposter syndrome. I, I do like the shift, or I think the shift back to what the original framing was around the imposter phenomenon. Because syndrome is like diagnosing that the the thing that's wrong is with the individual when...

LaToia Burkley 48:26

Something's wrong with me...

Erica D'Eramo 48:27

Yeah! And it's your job to fix it. Right. And, yes, we play a role, right. And we can be curious about that role that we are playing in it. But phenomenon means that this is occurring. And now we can look at the various causes, or contributors to that. And that article with HBR was Jodi-Ann Burey, who also has a great Ted Talk about like the myth of bringing your whole self to work. And Ruchika Tulshyan contributed to that. And yeah, it sort of like redirects the focus on what are the environmental factors and who else is here that's giving you messages, because, man, the thing that really ticks me off is when we act, and this comes into the confidence piece to 100%. We act like women just need to be told that they can do it, and that they are just these little girls who are not properly assessing the situation. And we're gonna tell them, "You can do it, just go fake it until you make it. Just pretend to be confident, rather than,

LaToia Burkley 49:37

Yay!!

Erica D'Eramo 49:38

Maybe we are adult humans who have navigated a world with a lot of risk in it. And we have learned that certain situations carry additional risks. So if we're not going to negotiate on our behalf, or advocate for ourselves, perhaps that's an irrational reaction to the risks or perhaps it's a very rational reaction to how you've experienced negotiations in the past and how you've been punished for stepping out of the societal norm about women advocating for themselves and advocating on behalf of somebody else, or at least like drawing from that energy is much more societally acceptable when it comes to women. So like, that's a great maneuver to play the game on your terms and to find a navigation around that risk or a mitigation for it at least. But this idea of like, confidence, I have this one anecdote that like, still sticks with me years later of going through an assessment for my Offshore Installation Manager Certification. And this is one of those cases where like, they, they run you through the wringer. Right, like there's explosions going off, and people yelling, and like, and it's like, all in real time, and you're being videotaped, and you have a team of people who are there, doing all the role playing and like the medic is like, you know, "My guy lost a leg!" and the helicopters crashing. And it's all real time. Right? Now, I prepped for this, I was ready. And I I was confident man, like going into my assessment. I'd been doing drills for a long time, I was there with one of my colleagues. And he, my colleague, who was also going to go through the assessment was much more reserved, much more quiet. And I remember that the company like sent an advocate for us who had been doing this role for a while. And that advocate was supposed to be there for us through the assessment. And he says, he sees the two of us sitting at the table. And he turns to me, and he says, "You know what, don't worry about it, you'll be Okay. You just got to fake your confidence." And the guy next to me, who had seen me do drills for a year, looked at me, laughed and was like, "I think she's gonna be fine.' But like, after that whole thing, I found out that that same person was going to be providing coaching to another woman in the company who was gonna go through the same assessment. And I was like, "Sir, would you be? Would you be open to some feedback?" And he like, "Yes, absolutely." And I explained, like, the worst thing you could do is to tell somebody, just fake your confidence, because you're telling me now that you don't think I have the confidence. You don't think that I believe I have a track record here. Alternatively, if you're going to work with another woman, before you're tempted to say that to her, why don't you just remind her, if she says to you that she is lacking confidence, like, she doesn't feel confident about this, or she's concerned, you can ask her about specifics, but like, remind her of all the things that she has done, already. She's got it, right. So what is confidence, but a track record that you could look back on, and the track record might not even be exact, it might be like, you walk into that that job role, and you've never done exactly ABC. And so that, like, fear starts showing up. But you know, what, you've walked into new rooms before, and not known what you're doing. Like there's something that you've done, that's a parallel that you can draw strength from. And too often we don't remind whoever it is, we don't remind the first, you know, woman in the room, the first person of color, like why they do belong there that they do have that track record of overcoming challenges. We just show them what they haven't done yet. That was my little rant.

LaToia Burkley 53:30

Oh, so many things come up. When you mentioned the "Hey, can submit some feedback for you?" What came the first thing that came into my head was yes. And once confident, is not always confident, once resilient is not always resilient. Once a demonstrable demonstratable. Once a demonstratable once, once a perceived action of endurance, doesn't guarantee endurance always. I also think that is as much as we say, "Yep, you just need to get in there and fake your confidence," you're assuming that I didn't have it. And versus reassuring me of the background and the track record that I may have in other spaces that I'm not thinking about, I can pull this past into this present, and just do it in a different way. We also don't, I don't think that we speak enough about yet you may have this confident moment, but that doesn't deem you confident always. And that's okay. Because in that same space, we also don't, we don't level set that like we're dealing with humans. We're not dealing with robots. And that same muscle that you exercise to do the thing and get through the assessment, that's, put that in your jar. That's an experience that you can draw on you can pull that energy and that essence, and then there's others that you will create and don't forget about that. And if you find that you are confident in this arena or these spaces or in this conversation, or you had some, you, the byproduct of the challenging thing was resilience, it doesn't automatically mean that you're going to show that in the next iteration of this challenge or when you, what is it? New level, new devil. You don't know what you're gonna You don't know what you don't know you don't know what you're going to be up against, and all of those things are still okay. Because when you don't show up how you showed up two years ago, or when you were at the other job, you're having a human experience. Honor your humaneness, honor your wholeness. And take all those pieces, the what you did in the past that helped you here, how can you recreate some of that here? Got it. Now, if you do that, what's the vision moving forward? How do we pull the past into the future and then get you to act on it? It's okay, if you have to do that time after time after time after time, job after job, role after role. Whatever that is, because you're human, you are subject to change, you show up different every day, even though you don't think you do show up different every day and allow yourself the space. When we say the whole person or your authentic person. We mean that too, when you're not okay. When you thought you had it like you did two years ago, and now you don't? It's okay.

Erica D'Eramo 56:21

Yeah, this, like the immediate rush to be like, "No, no, you should just, you should be confident!" It's like well, actually, maybe... First of all, I'm sorry that my my feelings that I'm having right now are making you uncomfortable. Like, this is more your discomfort about my you know, then than me. But also, it's okay to like accurately assess that maybe this is a new space for you. And there might be some blind spots and gaps and that you are going to need to do some growing here. And we don't need to like see that accurate assessment as being a flaw or a weakness in people. And I wish we could actually just normalize more of that so that we don't have people you know, is if you go back to that environment of offshore, right, with these leaders portraying absolute unquestioning confidence and stoicism in the face of whatever situation was, that was raised up as the ultimate way to be. And it meant, you know, an environment where it's much harder to ask questions, where it's much harder to to admit not knowing something. And so maybe we could normalize the other way a little bit more and say it's okay to be more accurate about our capabilities, our growth areas, and and then we can address them right, then I'm much more well suited, or not well suited, but like well equipped to go close those gaps. And that's where like, as a coach, right, we would ask, well, what would make you feel confident? Like what? What are the indicators you're looking for that would give you that confidence, right? Maybe you already have them, and if not, can we go get them?

LaToia Burkley 58:09

And if you can only be confident in this moment, you can only be resilient in this moment. And you can only show endurance or build endurance for this thing. Is it okay with you? How do you feel about that? And really, it is, right moment by moment. We want to we want to regain our power, we want to stand in our power, even if that's temporary. We want to move ourselves in a space of excitement and igniting, even if it's just temporary, and it's okay that you didn't. It's okay that now that you never, you haven't interviewed in the last 15 years, you're going on your first interview, and I don't know why I'm so nervous. You should be. You haven't done this in a really long time. And that's okay. In a coach approach way, we can get you to the interview feeling however you need to feel to walking out. However you need to feel it may not even be confidant. We can get you to however you need to feel so that you can wrap up the Zoom interview or walk out of the office and still feel whole and not feel less than whether that's an external cue or that's something that's coming from the inside that is coachable. And we can do it just for that moment. And if you need to do it in another moment, we can do it again in another moment. It's not a once saved, always saved type mentality. No, these are repeatable behaviors. Life is gonna throw us curveballs, our why is going to ground us, our values are going to ground us. So like when I think about resilience, endurance, confidence, negative self talk, if I had to leave the listeners with something actionable. Who is your resilience serving? Who is it serving? Are you staying and pushing through, is push through your strategy for you? Who? Who is it for? Might it be? Might the unintended consequence be someone else's bottom line? Are you staying in a toxic work culture for someone else's gain? Endurance: where is your community? If you're if you're going through the hard thing, you're starting to feel the lack of energy. Where are you engaging community? Where's your board of directors? Where there's, where's your top trusted five? Where are those people that you say the hard thing to, that give you the proverbial water as you're, you know, doing the marathon, that are cheering you on? Even if it's just temporary, right? I think about confidence. Confidence is built in increments. Confidence is not an all or nothing job. And where, where can you look back in your life and say, Actually, I felt this type of energy it felt good this way. And then what's your definition? How can you recreate it for this, interview, this industry transition, this move across the country? And then once you're done with that thing, take some inventory, you may need to do it again. But that's okay. You're human. You can come up to bat a couple times. Negative self talk, impostor syndrome, not an inside job, take some inventory on your space. What are the cultural cues in your job, at home? What are the societal, generational, and cultural norms that you might have to divest from so that you can breathe some fresher air so that you can realign with your values? And then at the core of all of that? Do you know what those things are? Have you defined your values? How you define what's most important? What are your non-negotiables for you and your household? You do and do not do what things? What do boundaries look like? And I say, as I've said, as a guest in multiple spaces, if you've done all of that data, scope. You've done all of that analysis for yourself, by yourself and for yourself. And you get to a point where you say, I am afraid of these answers. I do not know how to articulate these needs, these wants, this support. If nothing else, you have two people who can help you, right now. You have two people who are willing to to help to help you with that. And help you in a way that's not telling you what to do or telling you who to be. But who will serve in a thought provoking thought partner way with you. Don't go through life, don't go through this experience, the interview, the job, the divorce, the the the expanding your family, the visit one grocery store, then other grocery store, don't go through the decision making process feeling like it has to be at NASA levels, and if I don't do this, I am not a perfect human. You have two people in front of you in your ears probably right now, who are willing to do that for you and say, "It's okay." And you know what? You're worth that. You're worth that. You're worth the help. You're worth the support, you're worth the the excitement, you're worth the celebration, you're worth the reward, in your wholeness as you listen to us right now. You are worth it, in your whole entire identity. And don't think that you're not.

Erica D'Eramo 1:03:04

Yeah, yes, yes, yes. This this is what you've just said is really what made me fall in love with coaching, right? It's like, holding that space for people watching as they step into the opportunities, the potential that they've had with them that whole time. And like, the shift right, from the advice givers who, who undercut the confidence because they're saying, "I know better than you," to the coaches who reveal, "You know. You know what's best. Like, you've got it. Let's, let's explore together. Let's find this, what's right for you, together, like let's on earth it." Yes. I love that. Okay, if people wanted to reach out what is the best way for them to connect with you and what you're doing in the world and...

LaToia Burkley 1:03:17

So many things, so many things. So many things. Try and keep up. I would say first go to the website, www.yourbigdebutnow.com.

Erica D'Eramo 1:04:12

That'll be in the show notes.

LaToia Burkley 1:04:12

First thing. Yep. Very first thing you want to do you want to click that subscribe pop up box, join our mailing list. I talk to my newsletter folks first, before I talk to the rest of the world. Be it just nuggets that I'm dropping, be it things I'm thinking, things I might want to challenge. Events, opportunities, discounts on coaching services, folks who are in my email list are going to know that first and it's totally worth it for them. And while you're out there, grab a freebie. We've got two great ones, especially if you're thinking about shopping a coach. One is how to really get the most out of your coaching engagement. What does that require? Especially if like, if you're not really sure what coaching is, but I've had a mentor before I've had a sponsor before, right? It's a great little one-pager for you to pick up, free for you all day long out there on the website. The other one is, it's a little dated. But I feel that I've left it up there because I think it's still valid. How do you prepare for the new year? What are the questions you need to ask yourself as you close out one year coming into the next one. And because we're only a month into the new year, that's still valid, that'll come down soon, but grab that freebie as well, is that to one out there on the website. And then of course, while you're out, obviously, while you're out there on the website, click the link and schedule your discovery call, there might be some things that you want to chat about. When you either see the website or you review your one pager that you download, or you join our mailing list, please reach out to us, and schedule your discovery call. I also say ways that individuals can work with me, I do one on one coaching. I also do group coaching six to eight people. So you might want to have a one on one type of experience. But you might want to have some of your homies with you. That's totally okay. We can explore a common outcome or common thread in groups as well. Also too, I do consulting work within organizations. So you might want to bring me in as a speaker around confidence, around how to build clarity on your career path, while you gain confidence along the way. You might want to bring me in as a speaker, as we talk about my own professional journey, leaving the corporate environment coming into entrepreneurship, doing so through the pandemic as well. And some of the great lessons that I learned as many times as I was the other and the only, right? You also might want to bring me into your organization to talk about courageous conversations are some more professional development type topics, especially when we think about new people, leaders who are stepping into new people leadership. Okay, those are some great ways. Follow me on social LinkedIn at Your Big Debut. Follow me LinkedIn, LaToia, Burkley, I'm the only LaToia Burkley out there that's spelled with an I and not a Y. Follow us on social Your Big Debut @yourbigdebut on Instagram. I think I covered it all.

LaToia Burkley 1:04:34

Awesome. And again, we'll put those all in the show notes that if people need a little reference, it's right there. So thank you so so much for joining us today and for talking about this topic that I could probably talk for a week about all the complications of how we deal with resilience and existing in this world. And so really, you know, having this conversation with a right person was really important to me, and I'm so honored that you joined us today.

LaToia Burkley 1:06:58

Oh, thank you so much, Erica, I really enjoyed being with you. And thank you listeners. Hope you pick up all these nuggets that just Erica has just sprinkled around in our two dimension platform and just wow. I can't wait to do this again with you in the future.

Erica D'Eramo 1:07:44

Absolutely. And for anyone looking to find the transcript, or any of the details about this episode. Obviously you can find them in the show notes. You can also find them on our website at twopiersconsulting.com where we have all of those those goodies for you. So thank you for listening and we will see you next episode.