Please note that the following transcript is auto-generated and may contain errors.

Erica D'Eramo 0:05

Hello and welcome to the Two Piers podcast. I'm your host Erica D'Eramo. And today we have a guest joining us Tanya Tarr. Tanya is a behavioral scientist and executive health coach. She's the president of Cultivated Insights, which is a corporate learning and development company and a coaching practice. Tanya is a senior contributor with Forbes where she covers workplace wellbeing, burnout, recovery, negotiation techniques and equal pay. Tanya has interviewed more than 200 CEOs, executives and women leaders making a positive impact in their industries. Previous to corporate work, she studied burnout in the field with families of deployed soldiers and Texas public school educators. In her free time she is also a Muay Thai student and referee.

So welcome to the podcast. Tanya, great to hear.

Tanya Tarr 1:03

Thank you, Erica. It's great to be here. And this conversation is gonna be very fun.

Erica D'Eramo 1:11

And I've been wanting to have you on the podcast for a while. So I'm pretty excited about this. Thank you. It's always nice to be welcomed. Yeah. Yeah. So I mean, there are a ton of things that we could be talking about today. I think we, the like real nexus of our conversation is going to be around around this concept of burnout, and then some of the peripheral elements that we think about when we're talking about burnout. But first, I want to ask you a little bit about like, who are you? What's your origin story besides the the little header I gave before? But kind of what, what brought you to the Tanya that we have today?

Tanya Tarr 1:48

Oh my gosh, how much time do you have? Okay, so let's see, thumbnail. I grew up in Washington outside of Washington, DC. My dad's side of the family is his mother's from Brazil. And they he was born in South America. And they came to the States, I think in the 60s. And my mother's family is from Korea, and they came over in the early 70s. And so, you know, I, I've benefited from growing up in a really diverse place. And I recently was back home to do for work. And I realized how privileged I am to have grown up in the part of the world in montgomery county, incredibly educated population, a lot of resources. I think, if I remember correctly, in the high school I went to, there were like 40 languages outside of English spoken in the home. And so it really created this bubble, especially being a mixed race person. It really I grew up in a extraordinary bubble that I didn't realize, until I left.

And then I went to school in Pittsburgh, I went to Carnegie Mellon University, and got my undergrad and graduate degree there. And then spent some time in upstate New York, in Albany, which was amazing. And I would move back in a heartbeat. I really love that city. And I worked for the New York State Legislature, came home to DC work with military families found my way into politics. Sometimes I like to joke that like my whole life got disrupted by Al Gore.

You know, and because of being involved, you know, with his campaign very briefly, I got to do advance work for for the campaign in the last two weeks of the election. 2000 was totally wild. And it's a circus that I always refer to working in politics as joining the circus. So yeah, I ended up joining the circus in 2005. And then found my way very quickly into the labor movement. And so then I worked for working America, which is part of the AFL CIO and then got recruited into AFS me American Federation of State County Municipal Employees and their international office. I was on the road for like a year and a half in 2007 and 2008 for that election cycle presidential election cycle. And when that was done, I decided I would like to see another part of the world. So I applied for a job in Texas. I had spent in those 18 months I had spent, I think I visited eight or 10 States during the primary season. And part of that was in Texas. And so I got to meet the state Federation, President Linda bridges. And I really liked what I saw. And I think I think some of my mentors thought I was losing my little mind. I was turning 30. And I was like, I'd like to see another part of the world. We got Obama elected. And I think I'd like to learn how to build a union and they're like in Texas, and I was like, Yeah, I really liked the state Federation present like her leadership's amazing and they were just like, in a non collective bargaining state and like one of the most hostile places you could choose and I was like, yeah, yeah, it sounds like cool challenge. So, so that's how I live in Texas where I live now. And you know, I did get a lesson in how difficult it can be to organize in, in Texas in the south. And we did a lot of good things. But that's actually, you know, these days, I specialize in understanding workplace burnout and helping people recover from burnout or prevent burnout. And and that really, that was where I mean, I had seen it with military families. But we didn't call it that in 2003 when I was doing that work. But yeah, when I got to Texas, it was like, oh, you know, my job is political mobilization director was to get people to volunteer their time and get engaged in, you know, political campaigns or legislative work. And then our members weren't coming out because they were burnt out. And so it was like, oh, I need to understand this phenomena. So did that for a while I was physically burning out myself, I had some health issues, I managed to stabilize that, that prompted me to get certified at the Institute of Integrative Nutrition, which again, I was doing something and some of my mentors were like you're doing, huh? And with what? And like, you have a master's or like, why, what are you doing? Tanya? What do you what? What are you doing? And I was like, I'm linear path. I was just like you Well, I guess I, you know, the short version on this is like, I got really sick, like burnout takes a toll. It will like, your body will always win. We think that we're so smart. And we can do all these things without consequence. And I think the cool, it's heartbreaking and bittersweet, I think people are starting to understand, especially people around my age, I'm 45 people in their late 40s, early 50s, and younger, like we're all starting to realize, like, this is a fixed risk, your health is a fixed resource, like it's not, it can you can live in a sustainable way you should live in a sustainable way. But if you actually put yourself to the point of overwork, to the point of chronic exhaustion, where you're burning out, it's not just a mental health thing, it will affect your physical health, it will have permanent consequences. And so for me, I think I caught something. I think I was very fortunate. I caught something really early. But I was sick, and I was really good at hiding it. And then managed to find out that anyway, I feel like I'm monologuing here, but I'm gonna wrap this up. So I got sick. Found a health care practitioner that helped me answer some serious questions turned out I my chronic fatigue symptoms were actually driven by being pre diabetic, because I was practically diabetic. And I didn't look it because our western medicine has fat bias. And I looked average, and they didn't run the right test. And that was 2012.

And I managed to put diabetes, pre-diabetes into remission in a couple of years. It took me a couple of years. And then I left the movement. And I ended up doing corporate work, which again is so bizarre, most people do corporate work. And then they do like nonprofit work or political work, by the way, political work and nonprofit work are not the same. I think sometimes people think it is just that the same operational tempo is not the same. But, but usually people go the other direction. So anyhow, I managed to start working with corporate clients, was writing the column for Forbes. And, you know, primarily do learning and development, people hire me to do workshops, or, you know, Keynote or whatever. And sometimes they hire me to come in and do organizational assessments. I've helped a couple of organizations do some DEI work around like messaging. But for me, too, it's always like, it's not just about writing a statement. It's like, let's actually do a full scale organizational assessment and figure out the climate of the organization and like, make sure that there's full alignment. So that's like, surveys and conversations and all that stuff. But, but yeah, anyway, to bring us to the present. I am sitting for the national board exam in July. So when I got certified in 2015, we did not have the ability to get a national certification. And so now we do and so I'm sitting for the National Board Certification exam for health and wellness, I think they say wellness. I wish they said well being, health and wellness coaches, and that is administered by the National Board of Medical Examiners. So it's pretty serious. I didn't realize how serious it was. I particularly didn't realize how serious it was going to be to my wallet because I just bought the exam yesterday. I bought my seat. So yeah, so that happens in July and then I will be a nationally board certified health coach. And it's interesting too, because the timing couldn't be any better. I'm really encountering not only like managers and individual contributors. But like, executive burnout is very, very, very real CEO burnout is very real. And when you look at the articles that are posted about it like they give most pablum bullshit, advice. Burnout is a very complex topic that is not very well understood. And I think we, we throw around this term burnout.

And it is so much more complex than just being tired or worn out. And then also, too, sometimes people get confused, like, I reposted something that Adam Grant posted about burnout, and it was really smart. And, and he was talking about how like, we need to just build more sustainable rhythms for individuals to work. And I was like, Yes, we do and what the research is also telling us and what I've seen in my field observation is like, we need to help people reconnect, like we are suffering from a loneliness epidemic in this country. And part of the cost of that is burnout, we are not, we have not evolved to live in isolation. And so I talked about how, you know, there's some couple, a couple of interesting recent studies that have been done around this, too. But anyhow, so I posted this. And then this woman, I don't know very well wrote basically a comment that was like word salad. And she was just like, I disagree with all of this, because blah, blah, blah. And I was like, is she conflating psychological burnout with like workplace burnout, because, like, people don't seem to understand there's at least 40 to 60 years worth of organizational behavior and psychology research, like established clinical research on this.

So anyhow, that brings us to today. And you know, I still do workplace wellbeing lectures, and I do organizational assessments. But I'm also really glad to finally have brought together health coaching, which is really where my heart and soul is my heart and soul is helping relieve the suffering of my sisters and brothers on this planet as much as I possibly can. Before I croak, and so now it's all coming together. And that's why I call myself an executive health coach, because I really do want to help CEOs and executives, originally managers, I really wanted to help managers, I felt like that intervention, helping managers be better at managing actually has the best positive effect, to reduce burnout inside of an organization. But what I'm also finding now, by virtue of clients coming to me, is CEOs and executives, like we're all suffering from burnout. But we really need to help the folks at the top of the command structure or the nexus of the committee, however, your organization structure, right, like, like we have to help everyone recover. And I think it's very lonely to be in the C suite, because you can't expose failure or vulnerability as much as the culture has shifted around us. So anyhow, that's that's how I got here. And I've been training Muay Thai for the last eight years, and martial arts for the last nine years. I really, I got started very late. I'm a mathlete more than an athlete, the you know what I mean? Like I'm really not athletically inclined.

But that's a part of the burnout story, too, which is that I got I was very sick. And then I got I stabilized my health. And then and the doctor actually, when my doctor said, You can't do anything. You can, you can walk can take a 30 minute hatha yoga class. Me Well, I mean, previous to this, I've been practicing like hot yoga for like three or four years, I was running three or four miles on Town Lake every, you know, two or three times a week, like I was an active person and a high intensity high octane person, and they're like, Hey, you can't do you can't do anything.

You got to your nervous system needs to be repaired. So anyhow, when they gave me the green light, I was like, What's the most aggressive way that I can celebrate mine? When you found out and I was like, You know what? I took that Krav Maga class before, before I got really sick. And I love that.

And then so so that's what I did. I studied Krav Maga for a year and a half very seriously. I mean, going to classes twice a day sometimes. And, and then at some point, I was like,

I like craft, but like there's no competition aspects. And so I was like, what else could I practice and then a friend of mine had been studying Muy Thai and just Muay Thai is such a beautiful martial art. It really looks a lot like dancing. It's the art of eight limbs. So it's just a gorgeous art form. And so I found a Muy Thai gym.

And that's in that so what happened? I was 37, I had no business being in there, but I was like, I don't care. I love this. I'm gonna learn it. I'm gonna master it I'm gonna better myself. So so that's how I got into Muay Thai and then very unexpectedly last year, I got certified as a as a ref and judging official, and at some point soon, I will probably also get certified as an MMA judge, which like blows my mind, but very unexpected, but, but I love it. I love it so much. And and just as a wrap this up in a little bow again, Eric, I feel like I'm monologuing here. So thank you for letting me kind of tell this wild origin story but, you know, part of burnout. And actually I am seeing this a lot with with CEOs and with executives, you've got to have a third place in your life. Are you familiar with this concept of a third place, Erica? Have you heard about that?

Erica D'Eramo 15:33

Tell me about it.

Tanya Tarr 15:34

Yeah, so like you have work and you have home, they usually talk about as locations, you have work and you have home. And then you have like the third space. This was like very trendy in the early 2000s, where people were talking about like, you know, startup culture, and like coffee shops are great places to like foster economic development. And also they talked about the third, third space. And also I think people new urbanist talk about this a lot to you. Because when you live in a compact space, you kind of need a third space is an extension of your life. And I think that also works though, on a personal level and your personal ecology, you've got your home life. And then you've got your work life. And those two places you have certain identities. But I think especially if you work a high octane job, or if you work a high octane, or do you just work a job and you have a family and you have kids, I think you also need a third space, you need a space where you get to become a version of yourself that isn't you know, a parent or isn't a manager and allows you to tap into a flow state allows you to experience new things is a safe place for you to just try new things and fail and nobody cares.

Erica D'Eramo 16:44

Right.

Tanya Tarr 16:45

That third space and so Muay Thai for me, I think is my third space. Am I allowed to like curse on your podcast?

Erica D'Eramo 16:53

Yeah.

Tanya Tarr 16:54

Okay. Yeah. So because the thing about martial arts is it's like a very, it's like CrossFit. It's like other people, that type of hobby. Like it's, it's somehow it just kind of takes over your life and you're Okay with it because it is deeply enjoyable. And, you know, I like to say that I'm not a half assed person, I'm a full assed person. So like, totally embracing this idea of like Muay Thai, it was very, I will say that it was very unexpected for me to become a ref and judging official, but I'm so deeply grateful that that happened, because it really fits my personality very well. I don't have a, like, good fighters have to have a certain mentality that I don't have. But when you're a ref, like I just don't, I'm not I'm not a super, I this I know this surprises and people, they're just like, you're lying, Tanya, I'm not an aggressive, I'm not an aggressive person. I actually prefer to I love learning environments. And I love reffing in learning environments in particular, as opposed to like entertainment combat sports, which is a very different environment. But being a referee is actually very well suited for my personality type. And referees are meant to be, as one of my teachers says, We are firm, fair, friendly and fit. But our job is actually there to keep the the fighters safe. And to keep the fight moving. Right, the judges have to have something to score. So I feel really good. Being in the ring, not being the focus of attention, but also being the one that has to step in so that that we keep the fighters as safe as possible. That's a tangent. But the third space is...

Erica D'Eramo 18:39

No, I think it's connected

Tanya Tarr 18:40

It is connected. Yeah. So the third space for me is Muay Thai. Like that is

Erica D'Eramo 18:43

Yeah.

Tanya Tarr 18:43

That's a community. I'm a part of that to me and the gym that I train out of it feels like my like, if I was a churchgoer, I feel like that's, except you're usually not hitting people at church. But anyway, if we actually have fighter days on days, yeah, right. Maybe we should. But yeah, that that, to me, is like the third space. And so I'm constantly encouraging my clients, but particularly CEOs and executives and people that manage others, like what's your third space? Like? How do we make space in your life, so that you can have a third space because you need that third space to hit that flow state, which helps you emotionally but neurologically and cognitively at that is what's going to help recharge your battery. So that then you can go in and serve in these other capacities, whether it's being a parent, or being someone's partner, or being a CEO and having to make very difficult decisions, you know, because that's, that's the business of business, right? They don't get to be as creative as they used to when they were just an individual contributor.

Erica D'Eramo 19:47

Right. In those high stakes environments, or at least where it feels much more high stakes in the outcomes of your decisions.

Tanya Tarr 19:54

Yeah, absolutely.

Erica D'Eramo 19:54

So I love that framing about like being able to make mistakes, being able to experiment and kind of tap into that growth, where you're able to play, right that concept of like play.

Tanya Tarr 20:05

Yeah. There's a fun quote that I've seen on Instagram. And it's basically something like it takes us 400 repetitions to learn something new. Unless play's introduced in which case it can take as few as 20.

Erica D'Eramo 20:20

Okay, what?

Tanya Tarr 20:22

Okay, but here's the thing. So I did some research because I was like, Are you kidding me? Like, yeah, I'm like cross referencing. I'm looking at Snopes. I'm like, Is this even real? Okay, so the, the actual story about this quote is even wilder than the quote, so, and I'm blanking on her name, so I'll send it to you. So you can put it in the liner notes. But there was a neuroscientist, a woman neuroscientist at one of our Texas universities here in North Texas. And she studied I believe, she studied childhood development. And there's a school inside of a university is named after her. I'm very embarrassed that I can't remember this woman's name, but, but she is she is cited as the person who said this quote of it takes 400 repetitions unless play's introduced in which case it takes 20 repetitions. So supposedly, and she said, research says, right, so then I'm like, what's the research? Like, I'm trying to look for the study. I'm like, this is cool, right? Because I, I'm like, What's the PMD PMID? Like, look up this study. There's no study, because she had read a bunch of different studies and came up with this quote, but before they were able to document the citations, she passed away.

Erica D'Eramo 21:37

Oh...

Tanya Tarr 21:39

Yeah. And so then everyone was like, we don't know where she we don't know where she got this from, but she got it from somewhere. So it leaves a little bit of a mystery. But the other piece of the quote that people leave out is part of why this may be true...

Erica D'Eramo 21:56

Dr. Karyn Purvis?

Tanya Tarr 21:58

Yes, that's the one. Dr. Purvis. And so the other part of the quote that Dr. Purvis said that usually gets left out is she theorized the reason why it took fewer reps to learn something new to cognitively integrate, it was because when play is introduced, a lot of positive neurobiology also is introduced. So usually what is happening is like you're learning something, but you're learning something, it's creating dopamine. Dopamine is not a reward transmitter, it's actually a memory transmitter. And so that heightened positive experience in learning through play is probably why people learn recall faster, because they're encoding it with a very positive neurotransmitter. So that's why it may take you know, so people love putting hard numbers on stuff. And I don't think that it really exists that way. You know, but but I think that there's probably some truth behind learning something rote. And through repetition versus learning, through play. And I think the same applies to people who are trying to buffer or inoculate themselves against burnout, like play in a flow state exists for a reason. They're not a luxury, they're a way that our bodies evolved to restore themselves, especially after extremely stressful negative distressful situations. But yeah, I love that quote. But it's like a complete mystery. Like, is it made up? Maybe, but it was made up by a very credible person. And like, there's probably, there probably are studies, but we don't, it's left, you know, to antiquity we don't know where it goes. But on an on an, you know, and there are other researchers that have studied the the role of play, especially for adults, and they're positive things that happened with like, neuroplasticity, and things like that. But anyhow. Yeah.

Erica D'Eramo 23:48

I mean, that ties a lot of all of this together, because I think that one of the themes in many of our conversations, and especially around this concept of like, we're gonna talk about burnout. And we're also going to talk about combat sports is sort of the, that they are related, right? Like these, these identities we have outside of work and family and these activities we have are related, I think it came into stark relief, really, during the pandemic, when people were suddenly you know, trapped in their houses to do their work in one room, and then they maybe open a door and go into another room and do family life. And then they go back and they do work life and then they and a lot of us needed to find different ways or new ways to introduce whatever activities or community we had before that we might have been tapping into without even realizing the role that it was playing. And so suddenly, it became apparent what role it was playing.

Tanya Tarr 24:48

I think there also was a bit I mean, an odd benefit for people, because not everyone got this right. Like the the thing about the pandemic

Erica D'Eramo 24:56

That's true.

Tanya Tarr 24:56

So uneven. Yes. And, and people did live in very parallel realities. But I think there is a part of it where things kind of slowed down, which felt kind of nice because our country overall, regardless where you come from, we're addicted to overwork, and it's actually killing us. You know, the CDC predicts that in this year of 2024, that's 60% of Americans have one, if not multiple chronic illnesses. I'm not even talking about exotic ones. I'm talking about heart disease, I'm talking about cancer, I'm talking about liver failure, and diabetes. And there are almost 100 million Americans who are pre diabetic, and something crazy, like 80% of them don't even know it. Right. And that's actually when you want to make the be making the intervention, not retro actively giving them things like Ozempic. You know, you want to catch it early. And the thing about chronic illnesses is, there's a very clear dark line, now straight line that can be drawn from overwork, and workplace burnout to chronic illness. And this is in part, I think, why some of the younger folks, young millennials, and younger, Gen Z, are rebelling in a way and working differently, because they're like, I don't want to, I don't want to die at 50. That's not what I'm here to do. But in in 2015, when I got started, I mean, I got certified because I was like, I figured something out here. And I would like to get certified as a health coach. And then I'd like to figure out a way to like, share what I'm learning, especially as a behavioral scientist, because that was the whole thing is like, doctors like you're sick. But she didn't say you're sick. She's like, you have a blood sugar regulation issue. I'm looking at the report going, lady, this is telling me that I'm on the doorstep of diabetes. She's like, Yeah, that's true. And I was like, what, and I got mad. And I was like, I study data and patterns for living. Like I'm gonna figure this out. Like, I'm don't have patience with people telling me that we don't know what's wrong with you, or, you know, here's a pill, I just can't identify patience with it. And so I did create some, I did make some very stark choices that not everyone can make as easily as I can, but but I knew I had figured something out. And so you know, that's why I went that path. It's just It took another eight years for me to like nine years now for me to like, take it more seriously. But now we here we are almost 10 years later. And we knew that there was a chronic illness problem in 2015. But it wasn't nearly at the level that it is now. And the problem is that the rate at which people are getting sick and dying is extremely alarming. Where we knew was bad 10 years ago, now, it's like, we are in big trouble. And the issue is that our health care. I mean, there's health care insurance, which is his own gnarly thing, but like Western medicine, and even more other forms of health care in the United States, like practitioners don't have time to sit alongside patients. And you know, this is a coach to like, if you're trying to make a behavioral change that that moves on a different timeline, that doesn't happen by someone just prescribing a pill, there's an entire set of behaviors that have to change and shift. And the science is very clear on this, it takes on average about 66 days, to change a habit to habit to have something habituated to the point of semi automatic execution without active effort, right? It actually takes between 20 and like 290 days is what Dr. Phillippa Lally found in the UK, I always cite her research. And she's done research around behaviors, health behaviors, and on eating and nutrition and, you know, ways to actually create positive interventions to help people create better weight balance. So I was taught and that's why I work with people on a three month schedule is because we have to work if we work together for three months. You know, it gives us an actual shot at helping get you out of just the learning phase but and into the performance phase so that we can get you to self execute. But uh, yeah, it's wild. Like it's, it's super wild, and it's heartbreaking. But also, you know, coaches and health coaches in particular, like we have a chance to come alongside clients and help them actually figure out a game plan. So it's interesting like sometimes you pick your niche and sometimes your niche picks you and so I do I do work with executives, CEOs or executive directors, whatever managers directors that type of folk but then I do attract these other clients that you know, I'm working with them a first responder and she's going through a career transition and heading up into management. I'm working with another woman and she, she's a stay at home mom. She has three kids and a husband and and she and some of my other because they've gotten recent medical diagnoses that are usually related to chronic illness require a pretty serious behavioral change. And so we're working together to make those changes. So it's like, it's like people that are navigating that, that new space.

And and actually, yesterday, I just took on a client who is managing both these things. She's managing her own business, and she's managing her own health. So I feel grateful that I showed up where I was probably supposed to go. I can't believe it took eight. I can't believe it took eight years. But you know, sometimes the path of least resistance just they're on their own time. Yeah, so here we are.

Erica D'Eramo 30:46

I mean, I have this one little just anecdote of when I started have knee pain, it's pretty severe knee pain. When I was going through my yoga teacher training certification. I remember the I asked my anatomy guy, I was like, you know, my knee is making this really weird noise. He was like, Yeah, you're getting old. That's what happens. Right?

Tanya Tarr 31:08

Wow. Wow, crazy!

Erica D'Eramo 31:10

Right?

Tanya Tarr 31:10

What the heck, really?

Erica D'Eramo 31:11

The pain was like, really quite severe in certain cases. And, you know, like, when you're doing yoga, teacher training certification, you're very focused on like, interoception, and like, what's happening and whatever. So I was becoming increasingly aware of it. And I went home, and I saw I went to a doctor, like, my PCP was like, let me get you in for whatever, MRI and we'll see what's going on. And sure enough, there was cartilage damage. And I went to the first first doctor, first orthopedic, and he was like, this is really, really bad. You are never gonna be able to run again, you have a big like hole behind your kneecap, essentially. And it's going to be very invasive surgery, six month recovery is going to be very painful. But say goodbye to to running ever again. I mean, I used to run marathons, I don't really run that much anymore. But like, just the idea that like I wasn't ever going to be able to run again was like heartbreaking. I remember getting in the elevator to leave and just like crying. He said, you know, just schedule your appointment. So anyways, I went got a second opinion. And this guy was like, Oh, actually, we'll just do what they call a lateral release, we'll just clip this little tendon here, and our connective tissue or whatever, and you'll be in and out the same day, and it'll be super quick. And I was like, well, if it's connective tissue, like isn't supposed to be there, and he was like, ehhh, whatever, it's easy. So and you'll be fine. I was like, Okay, we're just gonna, we're just gonna cut it, right? Like this thing that grew there for a reason. We're just gonna cut it forever. Okay, whatever. So then I went, and finally, like, got a third opinion from somebody that like

Smart

I really trusted. A physical therapist who owned physical therapy practices. He was like, this is the only orthopedic I would ever talk to, talk to this guy. That guy was like, Alright. Yeah, you got some damage. But I would say the Plan A is physical therapy. Plan B is physical therapy. And then plan C is physical therapy, and then we can talk about other stuff afterwards, but like, we're gonna do all that first. But you know what, it would be really great if you could lose some weight. And I was like, Yeah, Okay. I mean, like, I've been trying to lose weight. Yeah, like, how, and he was like, Well, you know, just move more and eat less. And I was like, I'm doing that. But you've also taken riding a bike off my list you've taken running off my list, you've told me I can't walk long distances, anything with impact is off the list. He was like, well try swimming. Bye! See ya later. Let me know how it goes. And I just felt so hopeless in that moment of like, what are we supposed to do here? Thankfully, physical, you know, physical therapy was more of an ongoing relationship, at least. But this is why I think people are really just in our current paradigm are sort of left with these like, answers that are not really answers. They're not practical answers for complex holistic system types of issues that they're tackling and that's why having coaches who are informed who are data-based who are who understand the science behind a lot of this is so very important. So thank you. I really wish I had access to somebody like you back when I was crying in the elevator of some orthopedic surgeon.

Tanya Tarr 34:22

But thankfully, also you you knew to get multiple opinions. And you found a way forward. Right? You did find a way to figure it out. But yeah, I mean, and thankfully that that PT was more curious about it, instead of just suggesting major surgery. That seems ill advised. Yeah, we live in a much more complex world. I saw a real on Instagram. I spent way too much time on social media. I saw a real on Instagram. It was a young woman talking I think she's a young it's hard to know how old she is. But I would say put her as like maybe 32 or younger. And she was like listing off all these things that we have to do as adults. And she was just like, so you're telling me, I have to find a job. But I can't overwork these about overwork, I'll get sick, but I have to also get find, you know, a loved one and I have to get married, and then we have to have kids. And then I also have to somehow find a way to like, stay hydrated and not eat garbage, food and also work out, but also work out and be body positive, but not gain too much weight. But you know, and so she's going through like all these and then I have to buy a house. And then I have to, you know, and I have to pay off my student loans and like listing off all these things. And she was just like, forget it. I'm not doing it. Right. Like, like she just rebels against it. And like, on the one hand, and I just share this because I feel like it illustrates your point of we live in this extremely complex world. We're given a lot of garbage advice. I always like to tell people I don't don't do advice. All advice is garbage.

Erica D'Eramo 35:56

Yes.

Tanya Tarr 35:57

All advice is garbage.

Erica D'Eramo 35:58

I hate advice. I hate it

Tanya Tarr 36:00

Field notes are ok can be useful. I like to share sales notes. I like to share studies, but like you as the individual know how best to apply it to your life. But

Erica D'Eramo 36:10

Said like a true coach.

Tanya Tarr 36:11

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I'm telling you, it took me a really long time to be like, this is actually where my joy is, is wild there. I feel like it's super took me such a long time. And I think going through I had to take another class. And now I am a proud certification grad graduate. I mean, took one class because you had to take a approved class to sit for the exam. And the classes I had taken eight years ago don't count anymore. But, but yeah, I took classes at Cuyahoga Community College, proud alumna and also include Halle Berry. So I went to the same schools Halle Berry, I'm very proud of that. For her class, anyway, it's great class. But, you know, it reminded me that like coaches serve a different capacity that coaches empower individuals, because they know best I like to say that, you know, you as a client, you are the CEO of your life, you might be the CEO of a company, too, but you're also the CEO of your life. And I'm just here as your guide on the side, I'm here to be an honest mirror. I'm here to make space for you to talk about yourself, about how you're processing things in a future minded way. You know, I'm here to help you tap into your strengths. And like, what is the future you want to build, instead of what normally you do, which is put out fires, and manage certain types of realities, and often take a lot of just garbage from other people, right? Like, literally just talking about this with the client yesterday, like when you're the CEO, you're the least favorite person, right? You're the bad guy, because you have to say no, or you have to fire people, or you have to fire clients or whatever. Like, it's a really tough job to be a leader. So anyway, yeah, I also wanted to, I wish I could have told this young person. This individual who I'm not going to call who I accidentally just called a young person, I mean, she has She's younger than me, she's like, probably, you know, 12 to 15 years younger than me, but like, you don't have to do all of it at once. Right? So that's the thing. If I was talking to her, if I was talking to a client, you don't have to do all of it at once. And yes, you are having to manage and navigate a lot of stuff. But the cool thing about the human brain is it's elastic, and it can learn how to do new things. And you know, we're not going to talk about James Clear because I have certain feelings about him. But he and actually it's BJ Fogg is the original academic who wrote you know, Tiny Habits, which is a great book by the way. But we have the ability

Erica D'Eramo 38:44

His book is called Tiny habits.

Tanya Tarr 38:46

Yeah.

Erica D'Eramo 38:47

And then the next one was called Atomic Habits?

Tanya Tarr 38:50

Yeah, yeah! Yeah, marketing's trip.

Erica D'Eramo 38:56

Yeah.

Tanya Tarr 38:57

We're not talking. We're not going down that rabbit hole, Erica.

Erica D'Eramo 38:59

No, no, because I actually have to go pick up a cat soon. So we're gonna

Tanya Tarr 39:02

Yeah,

Erica D'Eramo 39:03

I don't want to get

Tanya Tarr 39:04

Yeah, yeah, yeah, well, no, because I have a whole anyway, my point though, is that we can learn how to do new things. We can build cognitive scaffolding that then actually scales right. So we learn how to do one thing, we build some foundations, we build anchor habits, and then we can build and habit stack on top of that. So it is possible to do all these crazy things. And it could seem overwhelming if you listed it all out.

Erica D'Eramo 39:27

Yeah.

Tanya Tarr 39:28

But we have the ability to adapt and change so

Erica D'Eramo 39:31

Yeah, I love the practicality of that. Like I I feel like this is whether it's coaching or consulting or whatever we live in a world of the shoulds like it well it should be this way and I really I just need to I always joke that those are my like red flag words from a client I just need to look it up last thing that I've been putting off for six months.

Tanya Tarr 39:52

Good language though, that that sounds like in the you know, Transtheoretical stages of change that sounds like contemplation like, oh, yeah, we weren't. Right.

Erica D'Eramo 40:03

Yeah, it's Yeah. But then there's the practicality of like, let's not diminish this, if it was difficult if it was that easy of I just need to, it'd be done already. So there's something bigger here, there's something more complex, but the reality of like, we don't need to worry about the perfect the perfect state in the future, like, what can we do right now? What are the practical things that will be most effective? And that's the realm we're going to operate in from a coaching perspective.

Tanya Tarr 40:30

Yeah, what's the first small step?

Erica D'Eramo 40:33

Yeah, the first small step! So I want to get into a little terminology, actually. Yeah. One thing was, I noticed in the beginning, you said you differentiated between wellness and wellbeing, do you want to just touch on that and kind of, give me that and you don't have to, if it's not something you want to talk about,

Tanya Tarr 40:52

No, I love, I love talking about it. But I think sometimes I get really, like I get very semantic about stuff. I don't know if I'm that's grammatically correct. But you know what I mean? Like, I get really like fussy about things. And most people cannot tell a difference between wellness and well being they use it interchangeably. I have an allergic reaction to wellness a lot, because I feel like it reminds me of consumer wellness and wellness influencers and thinking people are getting a little bit better at like, calling out garbage. Almost to the detriment now because it's like, you know, social media is always like a dog pile, like who can make the bigger dog pile but like wellness is important and well being is important, I think of wellness as like sometimes consumer wellness, or they're trying to sell you something they're trying to sell you supplements or like certain types of purified water or an outfit or the

Erica D'Eramo 41:48

Green smoothies.

Tanya Tarr 41:49

No, I hate green smoothies. wellbeing is about strategic management, not about green smoothies. Like that's, that's my thing. That's my tagline, I put it, I have the slide and a lot of my workshops, and it's like, well, well being is not about green smoothies, and it's got a big red X over a picture of a green smoothie like,

Yeah.

You know, green smoothies are helpful for some people, that's a tactic, but well being to me is is actually thinking of the whole ecosystem of our lives of all the different realms that we exist in all of the different spaces, and how they overlap. And to recognize this is all interconnected. To really recognize it's all interconnected, the thing that I hope I will do a better job at promoting, you know, in my small spaces where I can, and I hope more people in this in the space that I exist in, also do the same is we have to remember the interconnected nature of our health and well being. Because the studies actually more recent studies around burnout, workplace burnout. And what actually works is what helps people who feel burnt out inside of an organization is to do group volunteer activities, or to have the ability to connect with others in situations that allow for the organic forming of workplace friendships, right or sharing social resources. But it really is connecting in with our colleagues and doing things in a non hierarchical environment where again, I feel like that ability to make organic friendships is really important because true friendship helps create a sense of belonging, right? So I often try to tell people like just remember that everybody loves CARBs.

Erica D'Eramo 43:27

Okay.

Tanya Tarr 43:27

Everybody loves CARBs and CARBs is an acronym. It stands for competency, autonomy, relatedness and belonging. These are the core aspects of social. Sorry, these are the core aspects of self determination theory. I wanted to say social cognition theory, but that's something else. I'm studying for an exam, y'all. I'm studying. I have so many acronyms in my head right now.

Erica D'Eramo 43:48

And all the flashcards

Tanya Tarr 43:49

Yeah, all the flashcards darn cat, which is another, I'm not gonna go down that rabbit hole anyway. Everybody loves CARBs, competency, autonomy, relatedness and belonging. And social determination theory defines how we create or claim our intrinsic or internal motivation. Burnout is the ripping out of our motivation. We spent all this time focusing on burnout, right? Which is a byproduct.

Erica D'Eramo 44:17

Yes!

Tanya Tarr 44:18

If all your motivations ripped out, the way you rehabilitate yourself, is to actually figure out Okay, how do I stabilize and triage? And so like, how do I actually think about where do I feel competent? And where do I feel like I can make good choices freely? And where do I feel like who am I connected to? And then, who do I belong to? And who belongs to me? And of course, the difference between relatedness and belonging is relatedness, are connections, and belonging are people that have your back. So I really like a lot of the new research especially in you know, organizational behavioral psychology, which is, you know, that's the space I plan because it's showing that treat trying to treat burnout on on an individual level doesn't solve the problem because the actual larger problem if you zoom out is disconnection and isolation. And and yes, emotional exhaustion, but part of how you re charge that battery is to create social connections, meaningful social connections. Yeah, one very quick tangent to... Another thing I'm fixated about hyper fixated. It's very fun being neuro sparkly, our brains have so much fun when we talk to each other. It's awesome, yeah no, so the other thing, but it's connected to, you know, being feeling related and belonging and why that is such an important factor for either relieving burnout or inoculating your organization or your team against burnout. Is there something called a mirror neuron. Have I told you about mirror neurons, Erica?

Erica D'Eramo 45:50

You've told me but yeah, you can tell the audience though. So

Tanya Tarr 45:52

I know. I wish the audience can see our conversation, though, because Eric is hysterically funny when she wiggles her eyebrows, which she just did to me. Yeah, I you know, this is why podcasts are on YouTube now. Which is super weird. A younger person. I chatted with us on YouTube. We could try? Yeah, maybe? Yeah,

Erica D'Eramo 46:10

I'm recording video.

Tanya Tarr 46:12

Yeah, um, so mirror neurons, I think are really interesting to me, because as a facilitator, so I've been like facilitating groups, since I was like, in my like, college, right. So my 20s. And then I'm also like a theater geek, right. So like I understand, like, getting the energy of the audience to come together. Makes sense. Yeah. And so all of that is creating mirror neurons. So mirror neurons are created when we do things in synchronous action with one another, they were very popular for a short period of time. And then they sort of fell out of popularity these days, in terms of like social neuroscience. But I find them fascinating because I have seen so many times, when I'm kind of running the show, the value that is that is created when we take time to connect in and do a synchronous action together. And oftentimes, I will get especially very serious, like, I had this one job where I was helping like 16 pharmaceutical executives prepare for a multibillion dollar negotiation. And there I am getting them all to like do breathing exercises with me, it was all on Zoom to I was like, yeah, it was during the very beginning of the pandemic. And I was making them do all these things that like, I think they normally wouldn't do. And I was like, I know this might sound hokey, but please bear with me, please do these exercises with me, I will explain the science afterwards. And so like when I have that ability to explain it, it seems to go better. So this is why too you should never skip an icebreaker is when you have people do things in synchronous action, they produce this very specific type of mirror neuron. And upon that those mirror neurons upon that and they're mirrored because we're mirroring each other. It's also an important, that type of neuron the neural connections important to learning. But when we do things like when we sing together when we move and dance together when we experience a moment of silence together, and they're a bunch of like kind of silly icebreakers that I make people do. But the reason why make it make them do it is because that connection gets made in the brain and upon those specific neurons when they're fired up. We experience increased empathy, and connection. And most importantly, safety.

Erica D'Eramo 48:24

This explains so much for, I don't mean to make light of it, but really of why

Tanya Tarr 48:29

I like jokes, it's ok.

Erica D'Eramo 48:30

I've ended up dating, so many of my dance partners like in a bad and like and I shouldn't have but that dancing together like that salsa dancing together, like having a rhythm and like cohesiveness. It does fast track you on all of those parts. And then you try to like go get coffee together and you're like, "Wow, you have literally nothing in common but..."

Tanya Tarr 48:52

But maybe you do, ya know, after Absolutely yeah, dancing with people, or storytelling is another big one. And so this is what happens. And this is actually why I love when I'm on a stage to make a roomful of people laugh. Because I know as if I do it as a facilitator and educator to make sure that the group is still with me, right. And also, I know when I get them to laugh, they're going to remember it better. But also, I get a lot of joy from that, because we're all tuned in to the same thing when we laugh. And that's again, example of a mirror neuron. But mirror neurons are important, I think, because of the safety factor. And I think so many of us have been walking around for at least the last four years, if not longer, not feeling a sense of connection and safety. And so I think also this is what these studies are picking up on when people say they feel a reduction in exhaustion and burnout when they get to do you know social functions like volunteering or you know, a barbecue, organization wide barbecue or something like that is because they have this ability to experience things together to build those neurons that then help us feel connection and safety. Right because everybody loves carbs. Everyone loves relatedness and belonging. It's also probably why I feel such a strong connection to my Muay Thai gym, and why, you know, CrossFitters and stuff people talk about it being like culty or whatever, or comedy improv the same way. Because all of these things and dance, you know, dancing groups, too, and troops and so forth, like, musicians, right? Because they're all connecting these wild neurological connections with each other. And and, and then we're feeling it right. And then you do, I think, feel like the more difficult or challenging, you know, things are, and the more you are in sync with your team. I just think that's why that connection, that emotional connection, is there, right? Because we're doing really hard things together.

Erica D'Eramo 50:40

And keeping each other safe, right, like,

Tanya Tarr 50:42

Exactly.

Erica D'Eramo 50:43

Like rock climbing, the person that is belaying you.

Tanya Tarr 50:46

Yeah.

Erica D'Eramo 50:46

Suddenly, you have a lot more connection to that person when you're

Tanya Tarr 50:50

Like a trust fall. Yeah, exactly.

Erica D'Eramo 50:53

Yeah. So all right. So we talked about that from a definition, stand, like, just kind of talking about some words, and we have terminology. Just briefly, how do you actually you mentioned it, but burnout. I like how you framed it. Is there a definition that we should be using around burnout?

Tanya Tarr 51:15

Yeah, so I always look to Dr. Christina Maslach research and she was studying burnt out healthcare professionals in the 80s. And so when you hear so the World Health Organization defines burnout as a state of emotional mental and physical exhaustion created by unmanaged chronic stress, they're literally quoting Dr. Maslach's research, Dr. Maslach created the Maslach Burnout Index in 1981. That instrument has been extremely validated and tends to be the index that people and it's, you know, a series of questions. Those are the questions that people tend to use when they're assessing workplace burnout. I think in Europe, you can actually get a formal workplace burnout, like diagnosis, you cannot in the United States. But I do think in some European countries, they they actually have a process for that. And there are three key aspects of burnout to be aware of. So the characteristics are emotional exhaustion, or what's sometimes called compassion, fatigue, cynicism, which is like depersonalization and disconnection from your colleagues, and from the work, or from the organization. And the last one is in effectiveness or personal effectiveness, which is a low personal sense of self agency or efficacy, and a low sense of accomplishment. And by that it's like, it doesn't matter what you do, nobody cares. Like, that's kind of your way of explaining it. So if you're busy, fatigued, you're stressed, you're going to be able to bounce back within two weeks or so, like taking a long weekend and coming back and feeling some level of refreshment like that is an indicator that you're worn out, not burned out, that you're busy or fatigued, or stressed. If you have time for person, you still have time for personal life, the deadlines that you're dealing with are clear and manageable, that your high workload is temporary. So like a high operational tempo for a short period of time, that also is debriefed is fine, you're going to survive that that's actually really good too for building teams. As long as again, you have the ability to sort of like shut it down, you have a team debrief, you process the emotions that happen to you emotionally I call it emotional demobilization. Like it's important to sort of de mobilize right? The work is resourced, so you have the ability to like get stuff done delegate if you have two indicators of chronically stressed burn people that are chronically stressed and burnt out, like these are red flags. Okay? Exhaustion is chronic. So it lasts for more than two to three weeks, like you just don't wake up rested ever. Some of these characteristics I'm going to mention might also look like or mimic aspects of depression. And in fact, localized depression and burnout can sometimes happen together. But if you're actively avoiding loved ones, or social connections, or hobbies that you love, or you feel a persistent sense of self loathing, like as well as self isolation, like all of those things are Anhedonia is what they call us. It's avoidance of pleasure. If you're actively avoiding leisure activities or hobbies, again, if you have extremely negative emotions, like rage or numb numbness or complete disengagement, and that you have these, these very heightened emotions, and you realize like this is not appropriate to the situation, right, like and when I was going through burnout

Erica D'Eramo 54:19

Disproportionate.

Tanya Tarr 54:20

Yeah, very disproportionate. Like I would have moments when I was very burnt out where I was just like feeling like a rage cycle. But I knew even though I am a very spirited person, I was like, that's this is not appropriate for the situation. And then you also have chronically unmanageable under resource workload, like it just it never ends, right? There's no, you have to make the work kind of episodic in a way where it can be, you know, you initiate it, you close it and you have a debriefing cycle like, pace setting is very important to minimize potential for burnout. But

Erica D'Eramo 54:54

I'm like picturing a battery that you, right, because like a healthy battery, healthy maintenance of a battery. You are supposed to like run the battery all the way down, and then recharg it. Eventually, if you're not caring for that battery, it just won't hold a charge anymore. It'll

Tanya Tarr 55:10

That's right. Yeah. Or if you're kind of, you know, excessively charging it.

Erica D'Eramo 55:15

Yeah, too much.

Tanya Tarr 55:16

Yeah. So yeah. Yeah, no battery is a great is a great metaphor. But yeah, again, I just would really encourage all of your listeners to think about like, what is my third space? Where do I get to exist, where I just get to be me, and I have hopefully the ability to try new things without any sort of judgment, where it's a learning environment, and also that, you know, everybody loves carbs, where am I most competent? You know, where do I? Where do I get to express personal freedom and autonomy? Where do I Who do I feel connected to? And then who do I belong to and belong with? I think answering those four questions has really helped a lot of people that I work with, just start to see a little bit of daylight, you know, that they remember, this is who I am, these are my core values. And then that allows them to actually be a little bit more strategic and making the next decision that they have to make to help triage and rehabilitate.

I think the other reason why people get lost when they try to understand exhaustion, and burnout is, again, they focus on these things that are actual byproducts, they're not actually the drive you don't have. So like burnout is kind of like losing weight. You don't actually you can experience burnout, you feel all the emotions, but you don't have direct control over the burnout, just like when you're trying to do bring your weight. And I like to say bring your weight into balance, as opposed to losing weight or gaining weight, you're trying to bring your weight into balance. You don't actually have direct control over losing or gaining weight. But people fixate on these things, thinking that they're outcomes that you have control over the issue

Erica D'Eramo 56:52

They're lagging indicators.

Tanya Tarr 56:53

They're, exactly there. That's exactly it. They're lagging indicators. And also, they are an indirect byproduct.

Erica D'Eramo 57:01

Yes.

Tanya Tarr 57:02

So what you what you do have control over is your behaviors. So like, what are the behaviors that cause burnout? What are the behaviors that cause weight loss or weight gain? What are the behaviors that I can engage in that might cause me, for example, to fall in love, that's another thing like falling in love, like, if you focus on that, then what happens? It leads you to dating app hell, and like, you know what I mean, like, you can never predict how that's going to happen. So you know, you got to focus on the things that, that drive the positive behavior. So I developed a framework that's like, very simple. It's the House of Wellbeing in the Workplace of Wellbeing. And so when things are oblique, as what sometimes these these indicators are called, you can't go at them directly, you have to go with them indirectly. So with the house of well, being in the workplace of well being, I just put together a little diagram. And I mean, it's a lot of people have used this framework. But you've got a house with four rooms, your physical, mental, emotional, and cultural rooms. And there are different, by the way, and this is goes back to wellness versus well being, there are a different set of questions that you will ask yourself for House of well being in your home life versus the workplace of well being, which is your work life. And the thing that drives me crazy about the misapplication of wellness into workplaces is that they tried to take consumer individual tactics, green smoothies, yoga, pizza, at the office, or whatever, these these tactics that are somewhat meaningless. And they try to which are meant for the individual consumer, and then apply it in the workplace. It's sort of like saying, Here's a b2c solution, but we're going to bring it into a b2b environment. And it doesn't make any sense. Like,

Erica D'Eramo 58:40

Where we have control over the environment. That's the thing like you come on guys, you have control over this environment.

Tanya Tarr 58:47

But you know, they hadn't, I think is it just it's, it's all very all the stuffs all very new, you know, so, but there are certain questions or work appropriate to ask around, you know, how am I expressing my physical health, my mental health, by the way, mental is cognitive, emotional health, which I feel like therapy actually should go in that room. And then Cultural Health, which sometimes people say, that's the spiritual room, but I prefer to say cultural I think it's more inclusive, spirituality is is a part of that room. What I've noticed with my clients, and I've run various versions of, of, you know, exercises using this framework, I probably used with, like 200 or more people at this point, maybe more, maybe more, quite a few anyhow, what people find useful of this exercise when they're evaluating their house or well being in the workplace of well being is they find places that are rooms are easy to go into, where they are expressing some level of health. And then they also find rooms that are harder to get into. And what's interesting is knowing which room is harder to get into is almost as valuable as knowing which room is easy to get into because those rooms that are harder to get into require your attention and when you spend attention there, what happens is, it becomes self balancing. And so it does bring in aspects that you might need to help you build more sustainable rhythms, which is really the point here, right? Those frameworks seem to be helping a lot of people. It's bittersweet. I'm glad that we live in a time now where people are starting to understand that like, we have to take overwork seriously, because it's literally killing us. And I'm, it's bittersweet, because I wish it hadn't had to have gotten to this point. But we have the ability to make changes, and we do have the ability to repair some of it. And if we can't fully repair it than to make, we have an opportunity to create new products and environments that help sustain, you know, a very uncertain life that we live in right now. So yeah,

Erica D'Eramo 1:00:49

Yeah. So for for anyone that's listening, whether they work within an organization, they might want to bring this into their organization or an individual who might be interested in your coaching services. What are the ways that people can work with you? And how should they find you?

Tanya Tarr 1:01:05

Well, you can go to my website cultivatedinsights.com. There is a free burnout, recovery class on the main website. And then there are tabs, you can click on for coaching and for speaking and things like that. And then hopefully, you and I are going to be hitting the road. Doing some fun workshops. I love giving workshops I love doing, I've been calling them interactive keynotes lately, where there's some lecture, but I do love making sure that people are involved, and that it's participatory. It's the best learning environment. I am, I am taking now a couple of new clients, my I do have a little capacity to take on one on one clients. And then we're spending the summer kind of testing out some new methods to provide group coaching, that I think will be I'm really excited about. Yeah, because there are a lot of like, coaching apps. But what I've heard from consumers is that they're not actually sure and individuals on the other end. And so what's interesting is I don't know that the robots can beat human observation.

Erica D'Eramo 1:02:21

At least not yet. No.

Tanya Tarr 1:02:22

No, yeah, I don't I think, you know, I think this is the cool thing about coaching, whether it's the type of coaching we do, or me watching coaches in the ring, is that there's an enormous power in knowing that somebody believes in you.

Erica D'Eramo 1:02:40

Yeah.

Tanya Tarr 1:02:40

and just holding the possibility that you are capable of doing extraordinary things like that, that I think is the power of coaching and bearing witness to one another. And so yeah, so I'm gonna see if we could do it in a group setting that is, you know, a little bit more nimble, because I have encountered people that I think they do want accountability, they do want help, but they don't need a level of accountability that's like, you know, 50 minutes once a week for 12 weeks, like, not everyone can do that. Not everyone needs that not everyone needs that level of accountability. So yeah, I'm excited. I think this the we're almost halfway through the year. And I'm actually super excited about what we're going to be doing for the rest of the year. So

Erica D'Eramo 1:03:26

I mean, shameless plug for the work that we're collaborating on right now, which I'm really excited about, which kind of ties our worlds together in making sure that high stakes teams, that the leaders on high stakes teams are, you know, really fostering well being or aware of some of these pitfalls and are able to mitigate them. For teams that might be remote, you know, like rotational teams, teams where you take a helicopter to work, because this is sort of a blind spot for a lot of those areas. And those leaders have, you know, people's lives in their hands. And, yeah, and burnout, just like you were talking about earlier with this social element of it, leaders who are working on remote facilities who are rotating, they sometimes it can be extremely isolating in those places. And so I'm really excited about some of this work.

Tanya Tarr 1:04:32

Yeah. And I think too, it's like, it's actually kind of serious, right? Like, if we can help managers create safer environments, on all levels, that that is going to translate into safer workplaces and less, you know, less error that actually is very high stakes, right. So it's not just the the dollar cost but human costs. So yeah, and I think there's some really good examples that we'll be able to share. But But yeah, I feel like, I feel like it's my mission in life to really help people go beyond the green smoothie. I gotta stop talking about green smoothies. Like, I'm just I know, this is, it's not good to have a villain, but you don't I mean, like, it's not

Erica D'Eramo 1:05:17

It represents a lot.

Tanya Tarr 1:05:19

Yeah, we need to actually take this stuff seriously. Because in high stakes environments, when we don't pay attention to it, when we're not aware of it in a robust fashion, then it can lead to injury, it can lead to death, and it can lead to millions of dollars per minute going down the drain. So that's not the first motivation to do this. But, you know, we can create more sustainable rhythms, you know,

Erica D'Eramo 1:05:45

Yeah.

Tanya Tarr 1:05:45

And we can help people not die of chronic illness or suicide, which is the other cost when we don't pay attention to these things.

Erica D'Eramo 1:05:53

Yeah. And we have lots of the data. Now unfortunately, when I go looking for it, I see lots of the data on the, you know, secondary and tertiary impacts of this with people self medicating with either substances, alcohol, drugs, food, whatever that is, not managing rage, not managing emotions. So. So yes, thank you for the work that you're doing in this space.

Tanya Tarr 1:06:18

Thank you for the work you're doing. Thank thank us for the work in this space. Yeah, I'm excited.

Erica D'Eramo 1:06:25

And I will put links to your website. And in fact, we should link to the free resource that you mentioned. And we'll share links to your socials as well so that if you want to connect with Tanya and follow the work that she's doing, can find that in the show notes and on the summary of this episode. Well, thanks for coming on and sharing some of the things you're passionate about and this nonlinear journey of yours and I'm really excited to see what's coming up next.

Tanya Tarr 1:06:51

Yeah, me too. Thanks for having me Erica.