A Veteran's Journey - with Angela Parker

This episode we’re joined by Angela Parker, who shares her journey as a veteran and as a business leader.

Angela Parker, a seasoned finance executive and former Army officer, boasts diverse industry experience, spanning technology, security, consulting, aviation, energy, healthcare, and finance. Her strengths include mergers, restructuring, turnarounds, high-growth initiatives, and performance improvement.

She's set to take on a new CFO role, focusing on Mergers & Acquisitions and transforming finance with cutting-edge technology and processes.

As former CFO of Allied Universal Technology Services, Angela led teams across 50 locations, integrating seven new entities and implementing vital automation. In the energy sector, she drove business strategy and marketing for Halliburton and Baker Hughes, leveraging global trends for success. At American Airlines, Angela guided strategy, managed capital projects, and led merger teams.

A former Army officer, Angela holds an MBA from the University of Texas at Austin and a bachelor's degree in Literature and Computer Science Engineering from West Point. Her passions include travel, volunteering, running, yoga, and quality time with her grown children.

Angela shares with us the challenges and successes that she’s navigated first in the Army, and then in the corporate world, reflecting on how those experiences have shaped her journey as a leader and sharing her insights and words of wisdom along the way.

Transcript below:

Erica D'Eramo 0:05

Hello and welcome to the Two Piers podcast. I am your host Erica D'Eramo. And this is season four. And today we have a special guest on to talk to us a little bit about her experience as a veteran and we're about to celebrate Veterans Day coming up and so we're going to get the lived experiences and insights from Angela Parker.

Erica D'Eramo 0:37

So Angela is a finance and strategy executive and a former Army officer with broad industry experience across technologies, security, consulting, aviation, energy, healthcare and financial services. So really broad range. Her core competencies have included mergers and integrations, restructuring, turnarounds, high growth organizations and performance improvement. So Angela is soon to be announced in a new CFO role with a focus on mergers and acquisitions. We're really excited for her with that she'll be focused on scaling the accounting and finance functions with new technology processes and people for that future growth. Formerly, she was a chief financial officer for Allied Universal Technology Services where she led finance, accounting, compensation, procurement and warehousing teams across 50 different locations. She integrated seven newly acquired entities as well as implemented a new business intelligence platform and various process automations. So really in depth in the business and lots of technical expertise as well. In the energy sector, Angela led Business Strategy Market Intelligence and marketing for both Halliburton and Baker Hughes. Her team's incorporated global macroeconomics industry and customer trends to forecast performance and to drive strategy. So really high level. Previously at American Airlines, Angela guided strategy across various departments developed large scale capital initiatives and negotiated bids, contracts and partnerships. Additionally, she directed implementation teams and three separate mergers and joint businesses. Earlier in her career, she served as a medical service corps member in the US Army leading medical personnel and departments in field and hospital environments. Angela earned her Master's of Business Administration from the University of Texas at Austin, so fellow Longhorn, and she holds a Bachelor's degree in literature with studies in Computer Science Engineering and Life Sciences from the US Military Academy at West Point. Her hobbies are travelling, volunteering, running and yoga, very active, and she also enjoys spending time with her two grown children. We are so lucky to have Angela on the podcast today to share her lived experiences, her insights and shed a little bit of light on the life of a veteran. So thank you so much for joining us, Angela. So happy to have you here.

Angela Parker 3:05

Thank you, Erica, this is such an honor to be asked to do this for Veterans Day. And I hope that what I share can help someone in their own ventures.

Erica D'Eramo 3:14

Yeah, absolutely. I love to highlight different people's experiences, because I feel like so often, there is like an image of what we expect from some sliver of identity. And so actually shining a real light on real human beings and what their journey looked like. And their experiences look like can dispel a lot of myths and show other people what's possible as well, and what we can, you know, the variety and diversity that we can expect from, for example, veterans. So thank you.

Angela Parker 3:47

Well, I really love what you're doing here Erica, because, you know, through my career, I really didn't have a resource like this, you know, internet was just getting started. And I didn't have this kind of community to surround myself with or to ask questions, or even to hear real life examples to your point. So thank you for putting this together. And cheers to you for thinking about such an amazing way to share.

Erica D'Eramo 4:09

Yeah. Oh, thank you. I appreciate that. So that kind of brings me to a question of your origin story. So what were the beginnings of your your tale? Like how did we get to Angela that we see today?

Angela Parker 4:22

Well, goodness, where do I begin? I grew up in a small town called Paris, Texas. And I think there's a movie I've been told there is, I wouldn't recommend that one. But grew up on a farm out in the middle of nowhere and in, you know, but also struggled like many of us in the 70s and 80s. With, you know, a rough childhood. My family had drugs and alcohol and abuse and we we moved around a lot. In my sixth grade year alone. I went to four different schools. And so, you know, really formative in my childhood, to me was learning how to adapt and learning how to be the new kid and not get bullied in that, and you know how to make friends and how to really just stay focused on the positive? Because that was sometimes a lot of negativity going on at a young age.

Erica D'Eramo 5:10

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. How did that childhood end up with you going to West Point? Like, how did you end up on the path that you're on now?

Angela Parker 5:25

Well, you know, I just poured myself into my schoolwork, school was my outlet. And it was also my way out of that kind of lifestyle. So I did all of that. And then, you know, really excelled because of that. And luckily, you know, back then, when you took the PSATs, colleges would send you materials and information. So I received big, thick catalogs and glossy brochures. And, you know, just a lot of FedEx packages from top schools, bottom schools, and everything in between, most of which I had never heard of even some of the top schools. My family had not much gone to college for the most part, and so I really didn't have anyone to share with me how to choose a college or what to look for, or what to think about. So, you know, the stacks just piled up in a corner of my room, and I was even scared to look at them, I didn't know what to look at. And, you know, back then we didn't have the internet, so, it was very difficult to read and learn and understand things that today are at our fingertips. So you know, one day I came home and had a postcard a little black and white plain postcard in the mail from West Point. And, of course, I had heard of it, but really didn't know much about it. So off I went, drove myself to the library, checked out a book, read it, checked out another book, read that and, and then signed up, I sent the postcard back. And they scheduled me for a visit. And then I fell in love with everything. I spent the night with a cadet and learned really just the lifestyle and was prepared for all of that. And, and they've kind of did the rest for me, they really just helped me get the congressional nomination. And, you know, of course, I had to write the application and the essay and that kind of thing. But, you know, they really held my hand through it, which is what I was seeking overall, I was really seeking a home away from home. You know, I wanted to be independent, but I really loved the protective shelter of the military. And I think that's why a lot of people are soldiers, and, you know, go into the military is for exactly that. And I wasn't alone in that.

Erica D'Eramo 7:28

Yeah, I mean, I can just hearing you talk through that I can feel some of the comfort of the structure that comes with that. And, you know, staring at a big stack of materials versus just getting something that stands on its own and is like, "hey, yo, we're here, we've been here for a long time, it speaks for itself. And we'll, we'll bring you in and give you that structure and that support," it can, I could feel the draw of that.

Angela Parker 7:54

Well, I also at the time wanted to be a doctor, or, you know, that was my goal. And so I thought an Army doctor would be fantastic, where better to use those skills than in that kind of environment. So that was a big part of it, too. And then of course, the natural, full scholarship you get that was a concern for me, you know, how was I going to get to college and pay for it. And so that was a big relief as well that it all came together.

Erica D'Eramo 8:16

Yeah, absolutely. So very kind of strategic, but also shaped by your experiences at a young age. So how would you say your time at West Point, and maybe your just time in the Army ended up shaping your trajectory and your career?

Angela Parker 8:32

Oh, that's a big question. I think I could spend some time on this one,

Erica D'Eramo 8:35

You could probably write a book.

Angela Parker 8:39

Maybe one day, I just don't know who would want to read that. But, you know, I think first of all, I really appreciated especially now in hindsight, that the military has standards and scores for everything. And so, you know, except for the physical fitness test, all the scores are all the standards are the same for men and women and age and everything else. And so I really found that if I practiced, or if I performed, and the standards were the same, you know, that I could achieve, you know, by definition, success. And there was a core definition of success through that, and it didn't matter about someone's biases, or, you know, so called discrimination or anything, because the scores would speak for themselves. And so that that was a big lesson upfront. And I've tried to kind of implement that in companies and businesses that I've advised or been part of, to put standard core metrics that are measurable, you know, you hear about the SMART results, but to me that rings true even more so, you know, because of biases out there. I would say it also taught me about preparedness. One summer I was asked by a senior leader, an officer who had been infantry and you know, Special Forces, very manly man. He had asked me to teach a class that summer fitness class to a group of us on a mountaintop, with exercise to music. And I had taken a class like this there, believe it or not at the Academy. And so I think he was just really interested in what that would entail. And was also, I mean, speaking of diversity, trying to bring that thinking and new ideas into this all male unit besides me. So there we go, we head off, you know, group gets all gathered, it's early morning, 4:30, or five in the morning and off, we go to this mountain top and the Humvee and cut V, whatever it was, and we get there, and I was nervous, but we had built all this, you know, excitement, or at least willingness around the group to get there. And, you know, we turn on the music on back then the old boom boxes, and I get ready to go, and I start one of the exercises, and then the batteries died. And so I thought, "Oh, that's not good." And you know, that all he said to me, and this very calm, rational, you know, strong leader type way was, "And that's why we always prepare, Cadet Parker." And, you know, that's stuck with me for years. I mean, I have rehearsed that in my head. Every time I've had a big event, you know, with with growing, you know, my kids growing up trying to prepare for trips and events with them, that has rang true. So preparedness would be another one. I think the third thing it taught me was the importance of a strong network. So to this day, you know, almost three decades later, it's been that alumni group that have helped me in my darkest and toughest times, you know, they're there for celebration, when you do well, they're there to lend a hand when you're not. And they're there to introduce you and always treat you like family. And, you know, everybody has a form of that for the most part through different groups or social groups or family itself. But for me, that's really been a catalyst for some of my success, but more so just safety net, for when things have gone really badly. During COVID, you know, no one was hiring, I went through a really tough time and lost my job and amongst several other things. And so, you know, that's what got me through was another grad who invited me to come, you know, work for him and his company, as a consultant, and really tried to just give me opportunities and pull me along, which sometimes we just need that little boost. So I think, you know, that's another thing is definitely taught me the importance of that. I'd be remiss if I didn't talk about teamwork, you know, everybody thinks of the military as the epitome of teamwork. And it really, truly is, you know, not just teamwork itself, as far as working together, but moreso, I would say, it taught me that every single person has their core strengths and their core weaknesses. And it's the best leaders who pull those strengths out, and then minimize those weaknesses. And so, you know, especially at West Point, and I think it was very intentional, you know, we would have big football player, strong types, and then me on the team, and the exercises would be mental and physical, some of them would require crawling through a very tight space, you know, folding yourself into binds to get through or under an obstacle and, or to be lifted and pushed over. And so that requires someone nimble and flexible, and ideally, lighter weight. And then others required a big, strong person to literally push a vehicle up a hill, you know, or to, to carry someone like me, and, you know, a stretcher or a litter or cross, you know, rough terrain. And so it required all types of people. And that's really what it was teaching us was how to utilize everybody's strengths, and that we all play a part, and to not minimize those of us who are smaller or weaker, because we have an important role too. And then on the mental challenges, it was the same kind of thing, you know, you would need detailed mathematical calculations to do like a land navigation course or something like that. And then you would need creative problem solving and the other side of the brain to get through a situation and, you know, two different people again, and so I think that's a really important lesson for me early on was that every single person has their strengths, and it's my job as a leader to pull those out and help them utilize that in whatever capacity I can in their role.

Erica D'Eramo 14:20

Yeah, I think that it's so interesting to me when it's whenever we talk about meritocracy, and you kind of talked about this in the standards piece, a little bit that we talk, we're talking about meritocracy without really understanding what is shaping our definition of success and so I had a firefighter explained to me one time about in order to join the fire department, you have to be able to like haul 200 and something pounds of dead weight right? And we were only testing on that metric, but not testing on you know, can you crawl into this tiny crawlspace and coerce like coax a small child to come out and be rescued. And so how we decide which metrics are important, kind of shapes this view of meritocracy or you know, or lack thereof, actually. And so I love hearing you talk about these real world scenarios where you have to have the, the broad stretch of different abilities, because you never have like a superhero team that's just all big, brawny dudes, right. It's always a variety of superheroes, like a variety of strengths, and what one person, one person strength is also going to have a flip side of a weakness on it. So it's not like, we all get to just have strengths, we have to have weaknesses along with them. They're correlated. So I love hearing you talk about that, and how the military not only embedded that, but also taught you how to draw that out of teams, you're not trying to make everybody the same, you want that diversity of skill set, because that's what keeps you alive.

Angela Parker 15:58

Well, and I don't know if that core thought existed before. Women had been at the Academy 20 years when I graduated, which sounds like a lot, but it still felt very new. And so a lot of the thinking wasn't always geared towards that kind of acceptance, or that kind of celebration of differences like that. But then a lot of it was and so, you know, I really appreciated when I got to shine in my own capacity, especially in a team event like that, to show that I can pull my weight, but maybe just not physically, but in different ways.

Erica D'Eramo 16:32

Yeah, in different ways. Yeah. So tell me more about how you feel like the military has maybe shaped this path and this career that you had. I know, you and I had previously talked a little bit about, like, accountability or ownership. So how did that show up?

Angela Parker 16:49

Yes, thank you. You know, the military doesn't only teach that it really enforces it, it requires everybody to be accountable and to take full ownership and to see something through, you know, there, there were there were phone calls at 4am. And, you know, exercises that would last six weeks at a time without a shower. And so it really taught you to put yourself a little bit behind everybody else in the mission, and to sacrifice when needed, you know, to accomplish the goals and to to achieve that mission. And so that's really played out throughout my career. I've done turnarounds and bankruptcies and high growth transformations, everything has been in a high stress and high stakes environment. And I think that that's why I have thrived there is because I adapt to change quickly. And I also take full accountability and have that, you know that that grit really to see it through. Recently, speaking of grit, I was in an interview, and it was for a very difficult role that would require a lot of transformation. And then the last slide, I had to do 100 day plan of what what that would look like, if I started. The very last slide, I had a picture with the words, G R I T. And it stood for guts, resilience, initiative and tenacity. And not only did that ring true with the partner of the firm, so much that he's sending me a book about it, I got the job offer. And not only did I get the job offer, they increase the salary and compensation by at least 25%. So it's that kind of thinking, and that kind of trait, that the military is so good at instilling in people and that, you know, others really value and look towards and it's very rare. You know, it's very rare to have someone be willing to take a call, you know, in the middle of the night because there's a deadline. And for those type of people, you know, you lean on those when you have something critical, not that it's ideal. It's not ideal work life balance, but sometimes it's just needed and necessary. And I think that's some of the value that a soldier brings into the workplace.

Erica D'Eramo 18:59

Yeah. Yeah, that piece around being able to muster up that additional effort in in the intense times to be able to pull through for the sake of the team and the sake of the mission. Yeah, that that resonates. So what what do you think some, like through your years of working outside of the military, what are some of the misconceptions that you've encountered or the myths that you encounter when talking about either the military or veterans in general?

Angela Parker 19:33

Well, a lot of people think that there's a rigidity, you know, an inflexibility because of just everything being so standardized and so uniform. Other people have asked me, you know, well, how do you translate just giving people orders to then actually leading someone in the workplace where we don't give orders around here? We have to work through people and coach and mentor instead of just direct. And you know, others have an inability to let go of the military and some of the jargon and the culture and that kind of thing. And they try to bring that into the workplace. So there's a misconception too about about, you know, that we just can't let go sometimes of the past. For women in particular, I've seen a bias against, or a misconception about whether or not we actually do military and physical training. Of course, we do, of course, we qualify on our weapon. And of course, we crawl through the mud, and we go through all kinds of training alongside of everyone else, you know, especially in those foundational years before we choose a branch and that kind of thing, but then even after that, on field exercises, and every year, you're qualifying with a weapon, even when I was based in a hospital environment, we were still doing all of those things. So I had this picture from West Point that they had taken after a bayonet assault course. And so full mud, full Kevlar and weapon and, you know, full battle dress uniform, and I was exhausted, my hair was frizzing out of my helmet. And, you know, my shoe lace was untied from my boot, I had just literally, you know, been through hell on this course of, you know, attacking dummies and crawling under barbed wire and being shot at with lasers or, you know, fake rounds, and that kind of thing, but very stressful, intense physical environment. And they took a picture right at the end of it. So I had this presentation last year, and we just gone through a lot of turnaround, and a lot of transition and all these acquisitions, a lot of a lot of pain in the company. And we were all feeling just depleted. And I showed that picture because it reflected exactly what I was feeling after all of that, that we had just been through in the workplace. And, you know, I talk about all of that. And everybody's nodding and really resonating with what I'm saying. And I can tell it was really getting through, I got through the whole presentation. And then someone said, you know, happened to ask me that, wasn't you, was it in that picture? Weren't you in the army? And I said, What? It was a room of 30 people and I said, "Well, yes, that was me, that was me, you know, going through this course, that's what I just spent the last hour talking about." And the whole room was just in aroar and their shock and disbelief that that was me in that picture was shocking to me, because they really just, they all knew I had been in the military. But I guess they really just didn't think we went through that kind of training, especially as a woman, or maybe they just never pictured me in that light. But I again, I think misconceptions are that, you know, the military has that form of physical activity, but not everyone goes through it. So you know, and that brings me really to thinking about, you know how to overcome that. Because whether you're interviewing for a job in a civilian workplace, or, you know, you're trying to share your experiences and relate them to an another opportunity, I've found, you really have to take a big step back and understand that sometimes perceptions are so wrong, and you have to really start from some of the basics. And can't just assume that they know what you've been through and what you've done and what you've accomplished, or what the environment was like, or the stress or the physical demand or any of that. You sometimes really have to explain that. Even to people who've had family are such in the military, they, a lot of people just don't know.

Erica D'Eramo 23:23

Yeah, that's, that's really interesting. You, you mentioned the piece around misconceptions around rigidity, or like just only knowing how to give orders. Tell me more about that. Like, what's the reality?

Angela Parker 23:38

Well, you know, you certainly do that in some of your training, like I was a drill cadet, which was like a drill sergeant for a brand new recruit team at a military police one summer. And so there is some of that, and you chuckle inside as you do that. But you know, for the most part, the army and the military are not like that at all, you know, you're really truly leading through people, you're sharing your vision, you're getting their trust and earning their respect every single day and every decision big and small that you make. And it's really more about what they're doing when you're not looking and when you're not present and not there to give any orders or direction more than it is you know that and so I think that that's what I've shared with, you know, civilians who are asking me that question. I say it's more about, you know, what you leave behind when you're not there. And that's true leadership. And and the military teaches you very good styles of that, and very bad styles of that through your own experiences. So you learn very quickly, what works well for you, and therefore what works better for people that you're leading. And then what doesn't? Yeah, so it's actually the best form of training. You know, those who just give those orders are not going to be the successful one.

Erica D'Eramo 24:54

Yeah, absolutely. You're not going to build that followership from just just barking orders. Not that command and control isn't necessary at times. And maybe that's part of it right is that you learn the difference between when the command and control is needed and effective versus when the building of trust and kind of working through people is most effective?

Angela Parker 25:16

Well, I've even seen those quadrants that are based on the type of engagement that you're getting from your employee, and whether you direct or whether you coach or, you know, so on and so forth. And so, you know, that rings true in these HR models that teach leadership. So absolutely. I agree. There's a time and a place and a, and a type of person for all of those styles.

Erica D'Eramo 25:38

Yeah, absolutely. So what what do you wish that people knew about transitioning from that military life to that civilian life? You know, and you've shed a little bit of light on some of the misconceptions. But But what do you wish that people knew both outsiders, or civilians, and then maybe the people who are like experiencing it?

Angela Parker 26:01

Well, I think, you know, it's like we just talked about, you really have to get these basic levels to translate what you've just done, they don't always know what you've been through, or what skills you've gained, or, or, you know, like I said, the environment that you've been in. And so sharing the value of that, at those very basic levels is important. You also have to shift your style of communication, and, you know, your your own culture and, and be relevant, you know, you want to be relevant to the workplace and the culture of what you're about to enter. So you do have a role in that of making sure you know, you use words that are understood instead of military words like platoon versus Team and that kind of thing. So you have to rehearse that, you have to really get yourself out of that mindset, and the beginning, until you're comfortable with these new civilian words, for the same thing that you've just been doing for all those years. I would say too that, you can't necessarily expect your skills and your experiences to translate, you know, I was advising and part of this group to help people transition and there was a very, very senior general, who was exiting the military and wanted a top level executive position. And she had been in a similar HR capacity, I would say, and she was really struggling to get a foot in the door to get those level of interviews in the civilian workplace. And I think she was just expecting that one, everyone understood what she had done. And two, that the doors would just be all open for her when she got out, and you know, that she would be able to translate all that seamlessly and just scoot right in. And, you know, it was no surprise to me that she was struggling, I can't imagine being that far in your career, and how humbling that must be. But I think that that's really, what I learned is, you know, you have to stay humble, and you have to understand their perceptions and their needs. And it's not going to translate directly, even when in your mind, it might, it's not going to necessarily translate to them. And so, you know, I went back to business school, when I got out after a couple of roles, I found that I was frustrated in that, in myself, I had done sales roles, and I was struggling to get into management, and couldn't find a level of responsibility and accountability back to that piece that I had had in the military, even as a junior officer, very young age, I couldn't find anything, still haven't really, you know, 30 years later, I haven't found that level of ownership and responsibility that I had, even at a young age then. So, you know, you can't really expect that. But going back to school and getting an advanced degree can really help bridge the gap a little bit, it gives you time to assimilate, it also gives you new skills that are directly transferable and understood. And then lastly, it gives you career services and a job fair usually, where you can get better open doors coming out of out of the degree. So you know, I highly encourage that always. And then I would say, you know, just like I mentioned being humble, you may have to start over, you may have to start at the very bottom. And you know, this doesn't even happen in in corporate roles, you can't really go from, you know, finance into marketing or you know, sales until operations easily, or even one industry to another a lot of times that won't even translate the same exact role even being in a finance role. It doesn't always translate, different types of accounting or different metrics and, and that kind of thing. So, you know, we can't expect that military skills would transfer is even those kinds of skills don't transfer in the corporate place easily. So you really have to build that you have to network and build it through that. And but you also have to just maybe take a step back, I left one role of Fortune 500 company as a senior director that I had worked six years my way up getting promoted every year, really achieved and surpassed my peers and worked hard and did everything right. And I chose to leave the company for various reasons and had to go into a new industry and a new location. And I literally started all over, I started at the bottom as a manager again, and had to build my way back up. And you just may have to do that. And, you know, you'll, you'll promote quickly, you know, if you just keep your head down and work hard. Another example is during COVID, I took a consulting only role just to pay expenses. So they would, they were willing to not give me pay expenses only to consult for them. And I took that because there was really nothing else and talk about a humbling experience. But again, I just stayed positive, I worked hard, I took it as a foot in the door, and as an opportunity for me to do the rest with and I had mentioned this earlier with the West Pointer who had given me that opportunity. But then I had to earn my way into the rest. So the company then hired me full time, not him. And then not only did they hire me full time, they then promoted me into my first CFO role at that company. So, you know, it started out being, you know, something most probably would have turned down at that point in their career. But, you know, for me staying nimble and humble and just seeing everything as an opportunity, no matter how bad it appears up front is, is really important and, and just adapt and work hard, and the rest should follow.

Erica D'Eramo 31:29

So Angela, you mentioned, you know, like putting in the work, showing up getting your foot in the door. And delivering and other promotions will come when we deliver. And I think so many of us, you know, have done that we've seen that play out. And in some cases, we show up and we do the work, and maybe things don't happen, I'm sure that you you've experienced that as well, right? Where you're looking around and you're like, "Well, my peers are doing the same that I'm doing and I'm not progressing at the same rate." So tell me, tell me a little bit about that. How have you handled that in the past where you've shown up, you've done the work, and maybe it hasn't gone as you expected?

Angela Parker 32:07

Well, I have two different takes on that. And like anything, it's an investment. And you know, you have to decide how much you're willing to put in versus how much you're getting back out of it. And then sometimes we have to change what we invest in. So so there is that piece, but I'll share a couple of stories. In my role in American Airlines, it was a meritocracy. So every year you had to interview for a job and change roles. And that could either be the same level, or it could be you know, you could try for a promotion. And it could be in the same department or you could try a different department as well. Well, I wanted to learn the entire company. So I went from one department to another to another. And I was one of the last in the group of these participants in the program to get promoted to manager. And I started to really get frustrated, every time I'd interview, I would get turned down and they would choose someone who had already been in that department, you know, and so by moving around and doing different departments, it was hurting me. But in my core, I knew that was the right way to do it, I really wanted to learn and understand how the whole business worked. And so I just stuck with it, I continued to network, within the company, continued to just grow and try to learn. And finally one day I got my promotion in the department I had started in actually, I went back to that department. And then from there, I have to tell you, I just I excelled and I soared, I got promoted every year from that point on, you know, manager, senior manager, director, Senior Director, where most of my peers stayed at that manager level for a longer period of time. So it ended up really paying off because I could speak everybody's language throughout the company, I could understand how it all fit together, I had the perspective of those different departments and roles, and I knew people, you know, that that I had worked with for a year more than those. So it really paid off despite me not getting promoted alongside my peers. And so sometimes you just have to realize that your course may be different than others. And if you're choosing that, you know, you have to be true to yourself and stay the course sometimes. Or again, think about the investment and the return. Another example I had not such a success. I was in a company that was a relationship driven company more than a data driven company. And I had had coffee with one of the senior leaders asking for career advice of where I would go from there and the role that I was in. And the advice he gave me was just so sincere. And he said, "Angela, I've been thinking about this and I actually don't know an answer to your question. I don't know where it would be a good fit. I don't know where you could progress. And I really just don't know if this is overall the right place for you." And I knew that he was saying it out of a place in his heart. He wasn't being mean he wasn't being discriminatory. He was just being factual about the culture. And I felt it too, which is why I was asking him the question, but it was just so refreshing to hear hear him say that. And it really just helped me make my decision about where I went thereafter. And next. And it was no fault of any ones. It was just the nature of it and my own realization about where I was wanting to go versus where I was. And this was, you know, this was after my MBA, I had lots of skills, lots of experience. And yet still, those were his words. And so you have to think about that sometimes, too.

Erica D'Eramo 35:24

Yeah. So to add an anecdote to this, I still remember and I think this comes down to some of your discussion around the having the more objective measures versus this subjective piece of it. I remember being told, you know, promised a promotion promised a promotion, I was delivered, I was getting great ratings, I was delivering all that I was supposed to, I was over delivering, I was the go to whenever they needed a new project to be done. And when I asked like, wait a second, why am I still not being put forward for this promotion? And the answer I got back was just, "we just, there's just a gut feel that I don't know, there's just something I can't put my finger on it. But there's just something," and I was like, Okay, all right, that this is entirely subjective now, right, like we've, I'm going to need that in writing, I need you to put in writing that this is entirely subjective. And when I asked for that, in writing, instead of getting it in writing, they just put it put me forward for the promotion, which goes to show right that like, being in these organizations, and selecting the organizations where you know, that you'll have the ability to grow, and that the biases and subjectivity are not, you know, if those are working against you, then maybe maybe it's not the right fit, or maybe just that part of the organization is not the right fit, or how you advocate for yourself might need to change. And in the end, after, after finally getting that, I decided, I still decided like, this is probably not a good fit. And I want, I decided I was going to leave, and they offered to give me another promotion, as I was on my way out the door. And I thought, man, it was that easy the whole time? You know, like you knew that it was that easy the whole time. So I bring that up just because I, I feel like often women will go after whatever they've been given in front of them and strive for exceptionalism and doing their best in whatever environment that is, even if they're not necessarily getting that return on investment. And I think your anecdote about like it not being the right fit, in some cases, is really telling and really valuable for people to hear that, like sometimes it's just not the right fit, you got to change the environment.

Angela Parker 37:44

Well, I will say earlier on in my career, there were less women and fewer women as a percentage than there are even now. And so there were a lot more of those kinds of barriers earlier on, and biases. And really, I don't even know how much of it was acknowledged or intentional, but they existed in the sense that they just had never worked with someone like me. And I don't know that there was any more to it than just that I didn't look like them, or I didn't talk like them, or I talk with my hands. I tell stories more or add color more and, you know, just differences. And, you know, a lot of times it's small differences, it could be, you know, based on you know, age, race, gender, any of those things that you know, the typical ones that we see that end, or it can also just be smaller things like that I had a country accent, you know, from a small town, and I was talking to someone from the Northeast, and I was told that that made me sound really stupid. And I thought, well, you know, I can't change it, it's who I am. And so, you know, but sometimes they'll vocalize what it is they're thinking and sometimes they won't. Sometimes they're just not comfortable. You know, and it could be unfortunately, you know, a senior manager or you know, someone who's over you, who may have those kinds of latent, I'll just call it who may have that kind of discomfort with your presence alone and and that may be the subjective piece that they just can't put their finger on. Is it something within themselves, not something with you?

Erica D'Eramo 39:31

Yeah. Yeah. And like you said, there's no point trying to conform to that piece. You will, if you're making them uncomfortable because of your pure, showing up being female or having a southern accent. You're probably not ever going to conform enough to excel in that environment. You might conform enough to survive, but to really excel is different to like try to change your DNA is something tirely different. So

Angela Parker 40:01

Well, that's the important thing to ask Erica. And I don't mean to interrupt you. But that's the important thing to ask is, is it just this one example? And how much is this going to impact me? Or is this a culture? And is this prevalent throughout this organization? And so if it's just the one, you can usually work around that. Or work through it. Or, you know, just remove yourself completely from it. But if it's prevalent throughout, and you know, again, you have to, you have to ask yourself, is it a fit?

Erica D'Eramo 40:31

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So kind of on this topic, then I'm really interested in, especially since we tend to work with a lot of women who are pursuing careers in these more masculine male dominated spaces, when I say masculine, because sometimes, and similar to the military, probably, even if you have plenty of women, it doesn't lose... It's not necessarily about the percentage of women that still bring that kind of hyper masculine element to it. It might be a bit more inherent in the work environment itself. What are some of the differences that you've seen between the military and private industry in terms of gender dynamics, and maybe in terms of gender equity and opportunity for women?

Angela Parker 41:19

Well, like I said, the military has standards, and I, I've told people that I often feel that it was the least discriminatory role that I've ever had in my career. Because of that, I believe it was because of that. And a lot of the training, especially for leaders was around diversity. And it was around, you know, these these types of thinking about embracing all types, and, you know, being a leader to everyone, and then the culture created around that ensued, you know, so I think that the military, I really didn't see your have those problems, often. I won't say I didn't have them, but I didn't have them often. And it wasn't part of the entire experience that I had. And I could deal with situations on a one off basis there. You know, in the civilian workplace. Now in corporate, I've worked in mostly male dominated industries. And in fact, I'm trying to think of one that is not right now. But I think we're getting there. You know, I started my career out of the military, like I said, in financial services, I was one or I was two, one of two out of an office of 30, as a woman, and then I moved into pharmaceutical sales. And it was interesting, all those sales reps, for the most part, not all, but a big majority were women. But all of the leadership and management for the most part were men. And I thought, wow, that's seemingly backwards, when we're all learning and growing here, as a sales reps, when it makes sense, to then evolve into a manager role for this, it just baffled me, and it still does. But that's the reality of it. And then, you know, true, and I wouldn't even call pharmaceutical male dominated in the back of my mind, because of the number of women in the role. Yeah, but again, it's just not the right roles. And then, you know, I moved into the oil and gas, and that was very male dominated as well, particularly in the field and leadership roles. And even more recently, in security services. And before that industrial services, I was very outnumbered by my male counterparts, both, again, in leadership positions and in field roles as well. So, you know, I think it's still very much exists. And, you know, I used to want to deny that there were any real true differences in opportunities or promotions, promotability, success as it was defined, pay, expectations. And even standards, you know, I wanted to believe that if I just worked hard, it would all be Okay. And I would prove myself. And just like in the military, if I did my number of push ups, and I shot my weapon just in that one little spot right there, I would, I would succeed. And just, you know, obviously, it's undeniable that that's just not always the case. And so, you know, again, I don't think those gaps were always intentional. And I don't even think they were necessarily known or realized by the people who had those biases, and others around them. And in fact, even women often had the biases against other women, and to the point of even competition or trying to keep other women down, because they felt like they had done everything to get through that and succeed. And so they weren't going to lend a helping hand to help someone else do that. And so, you know, I'm still learning how to deal with all of these things. And I myself may have been guilty of similar kinds of biases. You know, I look within and say, "Am I doing this? Am I portraying any of these traits, intentionally or not?" Or is there anything I'm doing or saying that could be mis perceived to be doing that. And sometimes a lack of action could be perceived as that even, you know, when it's not anywhere in your thought or soul. So you know, you have to really make sure you go out of your way sometimes to project, the opposite of the perception. Otherwise, silence could be a form of acceptance. And I think really, the most effective thing I've learned is what we talked about earlier. And it's just really finding a place that's a good fit, finding a role and a, and an industry and a culture that lets you thrive. And that, you know, maximizes your strengths back to the very beginning of our discussion, you know, do they recognize my strengths? And are they allowing me to maximize those here? And then, you know, in other cases, I'll say that being a woman helped me get hired, you know, they were looking for diversity, a lot of leaders and companies now are seeking that, and, you know, to be able to fill that need for them. I'm happy to be that. And, you know, I've been asked, does that make me feel like a token? And the answer is absolutely not. There have been plenty of times that it's worked against me. And in this case, it's working for me. And I know, I earned it. I know I deserved it. And I know I will perform, and then I can prove that. So I don't feel that way at all about that. But you know, it's not easy. And like I said, I'm still learning how to deal with those kinds of challenges.

Erica D'Eramo 46:27

Yeah, I had a really interesting conversation one time, and it was actually at West Point. And it was at a Diversity Summit at West Point. And this very senior leader who had lots of things on his chest, lots of indications of his experience, and merit and seniority. And we were talking about diversity, you know, progressing this concept of diversity, equity and inclusion. And I, this was maybe back in 2016 or so maybe early 2017. Before 2020, when companies really started to change some of their tone on diversity, equity inclusion. So he felt like tying it to performance, tying it to pointing out how diversity really helps teams perform was cheapening it and he was like, "No, we just, we take a top down approach, we say, this is how it's going to be, and this is how it's going to be." And it was fascinating to me to hear that because, you know, for the military, integrating the military, that was it was a top down decision, this is the way it's going to be deciding that women were going to be in frontline active duty rolls, it was a decision, this is how it's gonna be. And because there's such a conformance culture built in, there wasn't there didn't necessarily like, once that decision is made, people don't get to just decide like, Well, I'm not going to integrate my platoon, like, that doesn't mean that you take the friction out, I'm sure that there was a lot of suffering that went on from some of the the first people to integrate some of the first women to be on those front lines. But it was a fascinating perspective to me, because in business, it doesn't work like that, like you do have to show the business impact. And so the philosophy that it was cheapening it was interesting to me, because, well, coming from energy and oil and gas, I talk about this sometimes that I see this element being much like safety in that it's both right, it's both the right thing to do to give people equal opportunities to success. And it's both. And it's also like we discussed the practical thing to do for the performance of the organization, as long as you understand what success should look like. So, yeah, do you have any reflections on that?

Angela Parker 48:54

Well, that's a really fantastic point that you've made. And, and that he made, you know, and it really was indicative of what I was talking about earlier with, you know, the military, just embracing diversity and, and celebrating differences between people. And I think, you know, you've just hit on a key point that we didn't talk about, and that's just enforcing it from the top and that key leadership that creates the culture. And it goes back to what we were saying too is, you know, is this a one off event where someone isn't accepting it, even though they've been given direct, you know, vision, guidance, instructions from the top? Or is this you know, part of a bigger problem. And in a lot of those cases in the military, you're just dealing with a one off situation where it's a true problem, versus you know, in corporate if that's not clear from the top and it's not a directive at the leadership level, then it's more invasive across multiple teams and groups, you know, and wanted to share to other things I've done about it. I, I've taken courses on negotiations, so that I can to better position myself in a job offer, or even in a discussion or a disagreement, or even in those situations where I feel like I'm not getting what I have earned. I've also addressed issues head on directly, I've confronted them, you know, behind closed doors, usually, unless someone does it to embarrass you, and then I think you have to be prepared to answer professionally and at that moment, but you know, I've even confronted bosses where I was head of HR and or finance, and I would see the pay differences. And I was at a much higher level in my role, and I had my male peers, or even less than peers getting paid significantly more than me who started at the same time who had the exact same background I did. And so, you know, in those cases, and in those instances, they know, I'm gonna see that information, and they just didn't care. And it wasn't important enough for them for whatever reasons to make my, my compensation equal. And, you know, confronting them really didn't do much, it didn't help anything. It was just that it's not in the budget right now. And, you know, so you know, you see all types of this, but I really do think you have to keep asking, it's the squeaky wheel will get the grease to your earlier point when you push back. And they said, they just put their thumb on what the, what the holding you back part was, and then they promoted you anyway, as I think sometimes you do have to push a little harder, which is why I took the courses on negotiation, I tried to make it seem like a win win, I tried to make myself part of their team I tried to partner and, and befriend, or at least earn respect of these people that are doing this pushing back. But but sometimes it's in vain. And you know, you just have to know when it's a lost cause. And again, just move around that or move on.

Erica D'Eramo 51:47

Yeah, yeah. I mean, you bring up excellent points that we and we know this from the the data and the research, and it doesn't make it right. But we know that it is often times, unfortunately, or fortunately more effective for women to negotiate from a place of collective well being and good rather than negotiate for themselves. Because women are not supposed to be selfish. They're not supposed to be self serving, they're not supposed to be overly ambitious and all of these things. So, you know, negotiations classes really teach you to learn what will resonate for your counterparty, and what levers will be valuable to them. And so yeah, I think that that's, it's an unfortunate reality. But I think that things like negotiation classes can be very valuable in managing those inequalities effectively, to the extent you can and sometimes you can't, right, like you said, sometimes it's in vain. You got to kind of take your ball and go home or go reinvest your energy and your resources where they'll give you a dividend.

Angela Parker 52:58

Well, and again, it's not just about women, it's about all different types of different types of differences. You know, but it really is, it could be any, any trait that is just not exactly like that person who has such a closed mind. So,

Erica D'Eramo 53:15

Yeah, I probably, I bring up women in this case, because they confront the, they confront some of these societal norms in the US. But it's a great point that like that, that conversation is very US centric. So even across cultures, norms around advocating for self versus the community are different. And so in the US, it's a very, like, individualist culture. And so yeah, you'll bump up against that in a variety of different lenses or kind of, yeah, yeah.

Angela Parker 53:49

Well, that's fascinating. It kind of makes me think about, you know, being a successful woman leader versus a successful man leader and I have bumped up to this now in more senior roles where I can say and be and do the exact same thing as my male counterpart. And it's interpreted very, very differently. It resonates louder, if I use a cuss word, or if I say something very strong and firm, it feels more like an attack coming from me, then the same tone, the same expression, the same warmth, even you know, as my male counterpart, and, and for them, it's just he's a strong, tough leader. For me. It's, it's, it's often not viewed that way. So I have learned that these perceptions and these sensitivities exist, and that I have to acknowledge that and again, I don't think they're intentional. They're not anyone purposely wanting to feel attacked by me. But just the way I say it coming from me because I'm supposed to be more nurturing and I'm supposed to be this smiling, friendly, approachable, person in culture, and and I am and I can be, but there are times that I'm not. And when I'm not, it really resonates, like I said much louder. So yeah, I've had to be careful with that.

Erica D'Eramo 55:12

Yeah, because you're operating outside of what the folks are considering the norm, especially if mostly, they've, they've seen women in their lives in less of the professional realm and more in the familial realm, then it even starts to like, tap into some real, like identity issues, if they only see women as familiar and you're raising your voice or like being stern, you know, that can tap into things, traumas from their childhood, who knows, but if they're not used to that, then certainly it can be. It can have an unintended consequence, until there's lots of us in the workplace and people can get used to us having a range of emotions and communication styles. Yeah,

Angela Parker 56:04

Well, and that's another point, you know, my emotions, I've really had to keep intact as well. And my emotions are no more than anyone else's, from what I can see. But again, it's just that perception, and I just have to be a lot clearer and a lot more professional and, and even warmer, you know, to get my same point across and to be heard in the same way that I'm meaning to be heard. Yeah, so I really have had to adapt. And it's, it's counter to what we're talking about, about, you know, an equal footing and equal perception and that kind of thing. But I think it's just the nature of it. And it's far yet to be overcome by by society or culture, that kind of thing that we do have to, it's similar to, you know, someone exiting the military and having to change who they are a little bit and a little less military jargon and different communication style. And I think it's similar as a woman in executive level positions, you have to change a little bit, the way you communicate. And, yeah, what you say,

Erica D'Eramo 57:11

At least in this current reality that we're facing, right, I think we do everyone a disservice. Well, I think we do particularly underrepresented groups a disservice when we act like you can just show up as your whole self, and you'll be fine. Without taking into account the very real risks that they face around being effective. Being able to navigate that and people should do whatever is best for them in that moment, right. Like if you've found that that's more effective for you to change your delivery, and it serves your goals, then by getting to the point where you can be successful, you can start to open up the pathways for other women coming behind you so that they aren't traveling, trying to walk such a narrow tightrope. Right. So that's, yeah, it's a it's a tough balance about like perpetuating some of these norms and biases versus getting through to the point where we can have some power to change the environment for the next generation.

Angela Parker 58:10

Absolutely. And talk with our hands freely,

Erica D'Eramo 58:14

Talk with our hands really, maybe drop a curse word here and there. Yeah, yeah, I still remember being told offshore, like, you know, it's not very lady like to curse. And it was like, man, I've literally been working out here in steel toed boots for most of my career. I've been like socialized amongst the wolves out here with you guys. Steel toed boots also aren't very feminine. And so how am I supposed to not curse? Like it's just part of, it's part of how we exist out here. Working on a boat.

Angela Parker 58:44

They could have meant that as a compliment. You just never know.

Erica D'Eramo 58:47

Yeah. In that case, I know that they did not. But that's it. But yeah, in some cases, I agree. So what do you wish you knew at the beginning of your career that you know now like, what would you tell Cadet Parker if if given the chance?

Angela Parker 59:04

Oh, well, I recently watched a LinkedIn series, where they interviewed a lot of successful people. And one of the women CEOs that they spoke to said that her career is more like a jungle gym, and not a ladder. And that certainly held true in my own path. But I really appreciated hearing it like that. And I think that's part of what I wish I had known then is there was no really right or wrong way to do my career. And I was learning and trying to figure it out. And also adapting to all the things you can never plan for, if you had the best well laid plans are going to they're going to change, you know, oil went below $0 a barrel and, you know, the other companies that I was at they filed bankruptcy and so, you know, sometimes you just have to adapt. And, you know, I think for me, I had this definition of success, and I thought it would be more successful much earlier on. And I think you know, in most cases without, you know, family or close friend or a lot of luck, it's really just about that it's about learning and failing, making mistakes, and just having resilience to pick yourself up and try something different. And to keep growing through that to figure out really what, and where you thrive and pushing through those boundaries to find your own definition of success. And, you know, that's the other thing I would tell myself, you know, the young, they expected it to be like in school where they say, you know, do this, and you do that, and you get the A.

Erica D'Eramo 1:00:39

Yeah.

Angela Parker 1:00:39

And we all know, real life is not like that, you know, it's it's not how reward or recognition or promotions work for that matter, you know, you have to have a lot more EQ, you have to have a lot more communication, and partnering, collaborations, networking. And, and, and really, you have to quantify your impact, you know, sometimes to get that same recognition or reward like we talked about, you really have to show what you've done, and make it more evident, instead of just turning in the assignment and getting the grade. You know, and I would say, overall, it's a lot more about relationships. Success is far more about relationships than I ever realized back then. And, and I'm still learning that even not so young now me is still learning, you know, that I really have to collaborate, and partner and communicate. And I can't say those three words enough. In fact, I've recently had an executive career coach, talking to me and coaching me on how I can better partner with, you know, others in my organization, and peers on my team, other stakeholders to really achieve the results that I'm looking to achieve. And, you know, it almost feels contrived sometimes to think about how you pregame a meeting, you know, you go in, and you you get supporters before the meeting, to support your idea during the meeting, and those kinds of things, you know, the young me would have thought that that was just way too much, and that it was fake, and all kinds of negative words. And now, I realize those are absolutely essential, and really, truly important to success. So there are a lot of lessons I would tell, tell the young me, but that would be more than anything, it's just it's more about people than it is, is who you know, not what you know, but that's not just in opportunities. That's in every day.

Erica D'Eramo 1:02:37

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Like a lot of what you describe is really that growth mindset shift from the fixed mindset. And I, I mentioned earlier that so often, little girls, but also, I think, we see this a lot in like first generation immigrant families as well, this like very fixed binary success or failure, like get the A, get, adhere to what these rules are. Be well behaved, don't get in trouble. But some of those don't really set you up, some, measuring yourself against those rulers don't necessarily set you up for the wild west of the real world business world where taking risks is actually necessary. Failing early and often and quickly moving on and taking those failures, learning from them, applying them, like those are what become key enablers to success in the business world. So I yeah, I love that description. And I think I had a coach one time told me "Well, it's either a win or learn." I think I was talking about like, launching something. And it was like, "I don't know if it's gonna work and what if it doesn't work?" She was like, "Well, it's gonna be a winner learn." And I tell myself that all the time now, right. And as you were describing that, that's what I was thinking like, that's, you know, it's either win or learn, and you're gonna have a lot of learns.

Angela Parker 1:04:02

But that's exactly it. And speaking of that, I had a lot of failures. I'm not sitting here saying that everything I've done has been successful, I've had a lot of failures, and a lot of mistakes or bad decisions, or just, you know, bad reactions and different situations. And, again, you know, that's, that's part of being wise. And it's part of our own path is, where there's this, you know, zero defect mentality or zero failure environments, you know, and it really has crushed a lot of creative thinking and risk taking and that kind of thing. So I've had to just not be so hard on myself. And I've had to just let myself try to learn from every mistake, learn from every bankruptcy and, and I will tell you that every failure that has happened, whether I caused it or it was just something out of my control, there has always been something better on the other side, and I know that's cliche, but it really has all truly led me to something that I'm so grateful that that catastrophe happened to get me to that point. And it's continued to allow me to grow and promote and achieve where I never would have if that hadn't happened in the first place. So, yeah, I really do think that it's more about persistence, and resilience, and just focusing on the positive, you know, there's so much talk now about gratitude, and, and just visioning, and all of these things, but I really do believe in all of that, that you have to just stay focused and stay positive, and really believe that something better is coming. And you have to clear out some of the bad or some of the old or some of the things that are preventing you from achieving what's next in your life. And a lot of times we don't even realize that that's what's happening. And, and feel and feel destroyed by it or so negative, or, or hurt or angry or held back or any of these, you know, often very negative emotions that we go through. Yeah, and it's really just a matter of, of taking that next step.

Erica D'Eramo 1:06:07

Yeah. I mean, not to belabor the point. But I think that when we talked about your upbringing, as well, so many of us that came from, you know, chal challenge some of those behaviors of being really tough on ourselves of like really analyzing any kind of failure and trying to learn from it and not make any more of those failures, which means maybe not taking as many risks. Those might have been very adaptive behaviors for us, that kept us safe at different periods of our lives, and so unlearning that and changing it to the, to where we do start to acknowledge some of our failures as like, "Okay, it was Okay, right? I'm Okay, I'm still alive, my identity is still intact. I'm still the same person I was yesterday. And now I have even more knowledge and wisdom and learning that I can apply to the next venture or the next effort." So I do want to like share some compassion for those behaviors, I see it in so many high achievers that are really tough on themselves and struggle to take that different viewpoint that you're describing of like, you know, this is beating up on yourself is not actually moving you forward at all, it might have done that before, it might have kept you safe before in a different environment where you lacked safety. But now the most effective thing is to like, move quickly to take those learnings move quickly. And just digest them.

Angela Parker 1:07:34

Well, I think you have two choices, when you achieve coming from a background like that you can either become stoic, and, you know, and maybe narcissistic is the word where you just really don't blame yourself for anything. And you never have to introspect, and you just keep charging on oblivious to any of the, you know, the burnt path you leave behind, and, and you know, anything else. Whereas the other side is, you know, people can often do what you say, and really just beat themselves up and criticize themselves and continually question themselves and go through the impostor syndrome, or all of these self doubting behaviors, and it's really important to have, I think, a balance between those two psyches, you know, to really have strength and resilience and, and try to really think about what did you control? What What impact did you have versus what was not controllable. And if it was something you did control, you know, just really, truly having that introspect to say, "Okay, I really mess that up, I'm gonna learn from it. I'm going to try to make amends to anyone that got caught up in that with me," and then continue and like you said, that just learn and move on and grow from it. Because, you know, either one of those ends of those extremes is not healthy. So it's, I think, important to have that barrier. And at the same time, you know, look in the mirror and say, "Okay, what should I could have would have done and how am I going to do it differently next time?"

Erica D'Eramo 1:09:03

Yeah. I love that you're role modeling that for other people, too, because I needed that role models for me. And I still remember a leader one time I watched him make such just a really embarrassing mistake. And he like hung up the phone. He did it on like a big call, or whatever he like, hung it up. I was in his office with him. And he was like, "Well, I screwed that up. Anyways, what are we doing for dinner?" It was just so, and I thought I would be losing sleep over that. But how is that more effective? Right? He just like, let it roll off his back. And I thought, "Ah, this is what I need to do more of this." And so I love that you're role modeling that for other people, because sometimes people just need to see that right? They need to see people handle that challenge and failure in a healthy way. That's productive. So, thank you.

Angela Parker 1:09:53

Well, I've certainly had my share of unhealthy ways where I have done something similar and and I've learned it's better to address it to go back and address that with, with whomever I did that in front of and, and say that out loud. I really messed that up. And

Erica D'Eramo 1:10:08

yeah, you know, humility makes you stronger.

Angela Parker 1:10:12

Learning? Yes, you know, you're all just about vulnerability, and there's a fine line to that. And then, you know, over exposing yourself, I think and but I think there is some value to staying vulnerable and, and trying to admit when you make mistakes, especially to those who saw you make them.

Erica D'Eramo 1:10:31

Yeah, yeah, definitely. I think there's, there was one time I asked a senior leader just like so what? Maybe this was a test, I don't remember what it was like. "So in your career, you know, like, what was one of your biggest mistakes?" And this very senior leader could not answer me. I don't know if he couldn't, or wouldn't, but he just like, wouldn't give any example of any mistakes. And I thought, Oh, actually, that the way I saw a senior leader totally shifted. And I thought, like, you're afraid to admit a mistake to me! Oh, my goodness, wow, you're a lot weaker than I thought, like, I just was blown away, because I thought, does he really care that much about what I think like, I'm so low, or can you not admit to himself? Can he not hold that as a truth that he's like, made mistakes, a thing that we've all done, right, we've all clearly made mistakes. So that normalization, I also think is so important. And I don't know that everyone has the leeway to admit mistakes in the same way. So I like that you bring up the point that like vulnerability to the, to the right extent. In the wrong environment, vulnerability can be used against you. But denying that we make mistakes doesn't come across to anyone as strong leadership either.

Angela Parker 1:11:49

Well, and that's interesting that what you talk about, and in the wrong environment, it's so true, especially with social media now, and things being recorded and replayed and taken out of context. And so, you know, maybe the senior leader you're talking about was fearful of something like that? You know, I think there are, there are a lot of things that I've learned, the more senior I get, you know, there are a lot more lessons I'm learning about what you say and how things can be repeated in a very different way than you meant it and even replayed in a video sense. And so I think you know, that there are I don't know, I feel like I'm repeating myself.

Erica D'Eramo 1:12:34

There are real risks. Right, there are real risks to it. And there's, and there's also like anything else, there's the balance that is right for you, considering the risks in your environment outside of your environment. And the the level of humility that is right for you, it probably depends on a lot of different factors.

Angela Parker 1:12:57

Well, and it goes back to what we were saying, just try to stay humble and keep working hard and yeah, be be genuine.

Erica D'Eramo 1:13:04

Yeah, yeah. Any, so you mentioned a lot around partnering and collaboration and kind of working with a coach on that. Do you have any, like, tell us a little bit more about that?

Angela Parker 1:13:18

Well, in a, my recent CFO role, I went into the company, when it was going through a lot of change, and it had 10 times growth within about a five year period, it had just been acquired by the parent company a couple of years before that, and we're still going through some, some pains with that, and then had itself acquired seven companies that had just been announced. And we're in the process of being integrated when I started, some had some had not. And so, you know, there were a lot of people and process and systems issues, the data wasn't clean, you know, the accounting close process needed a lot of refinement, the the models that were built had a lot of bad assumptions, you know, just the cash flow, you know, invoicing process had challenges. And so really everything that I looked at needed to be scaled to this new size and this new environment. It was a lot of work. And I saw this going in, you know, you see this immediately these things jump out at you and you immediately identify this long list of problems. But I think where I failed was I should have documented all of those and captured all of those from not just my boss, but also my peers, my team, other stakeholders like at the parent company, and said, "Okay, here's what we all view as the problems and the needs of me and my team. And as I triage here's the order I see that I'm going to tackle these in not that your item is not on my list. It's just not at the top of my list right now. But I want you to know I see it I acknowledge it and then I'm I'm absolutely I'm going to get to it and, and together, we're going to agree where it fits in all of these priorities." And if I had done that, across all of those different stakeholders and groups, and gotten that buy in and gotten that understanding of all of the challenges, I think I would have just had a much more successful time. Instead of maybe perhaps some of those viewing me as not understanding their needs, or, you know, not successful in my role as the way they were defining it. And so it all comes back again to the partnering and collaborating and communicating. That was a big lesson learned from that. And, and in hindsight, I wish I would have done that moreso.

Erica D'Eramo 1:15:41

Yeah. I mean, it also ties back to what you were mentioning around negotiations and understanding some of these needs of your stakeholders and, and aligning, finding the right levers, the right communication, to get those gears working for a big machine, right. When you're working in these large organizations. It's such a big machine that you're trying to move with a lot of different parts. So yeah, that's a that's a great a great learning to share with us. Yeah, good.

Angela Parker 1:16:12

Yeah, it could have helped me too, with when I needed resources, you know, or when I needed support, or when I needed more time, or when I needed advice. I mean, I could have, you know, naturally invited more of that, or, or received more of that, I think, if I had been more collaborative, and more open about, you know, all of those different challenges I was seeing,

Erica D'Eramo 1:16:35

Yeah, yeah. And it's like you mentioned before, it's a bit of a balance to strike there with the humility, the vulnerability, the like, putting it out there. Especially different organizations have a different view of what amount of like consensus seeking or input seeking is Okay, especially in command and control organizations where it's like, "You're just supposed to tell us what to do, and then we just do it." So finding the right balance for you in that organization sounds like a key learning. Any other any other lessons that you want our listeners to take away today, like any key points that, you've already shared so many insights.

Angela Parker 1:17:17

Well, you know, across my home, I have all of these motivational prompts, you know, to try to help me stay focused and positive and motivated and, and grateful. And one in particular, that I love that "she believed she could, so she did." And that one I think really resonates with me, and it's not just about the "she." That's any of us. And I really do believe back to the you know, being grateful and envisioning and, and those things, you really need to see yourself where you want to be dressed. The part that you want to be not the part you are, I've heard that throughout my career. And that's really helped me too. But really, truly try to see yourself where you want to be, and, and exude that. And others, I think can't help but see that in you, when they see you believing in yourself, they believe it too. And a lot of them will even help you get there. So for me, that's been a really critical key to my success is believing that I deserve it and embodying it, and then letting the light shine.

Erica D'Eramo 1:18:25

Yeah, yeah, that's really powerful. And I think too, when people, when people start to feel that light flicker, they can look to people like you, right, they can find the mentors, like you, like the coach that you mentioned, they can find the people who are going to blow on that flame and help ignite it a little bit more. Because, you know, we all we all need to foster that flame internally. And it can be tough, it can be tough when you're in these environments, you know?

Angela Parker 1:18:51

Absolutely. That's why I love what you're doing here. This is a fantastic resource. And, and I can't wait to hear other speakers you have for my own motivation.

Erica D'Eramo 1:19:01

Well, thank you for providing the motivation for anyone out there that's listening and who would like to maybe pursue a similarly successful career path? I know you mentioned, you know, a lot of a lot of challenges and struggles and you mentioned failures. And all of that is within the context of a lot of success. So in whatever way you measure that, right, you've had like a lot of different very interesting career paths and opportunities and I love to kind of just see more successful women, more successful veterans, I love it. So thank you for for being that role model.

Angela Parker 1:19:40

Well, thank you. I don't necessarily feel like I have all of the success and I'm not sure what the finds that or how we ever really know if we've made it but but thank you for calling it success and it certainly helps me appreciate all of the ups and downs that I've been through to be able to share that with you and and your

Erica D'Eramo 1:20:01

Audience. Yeah.

Angela Parker 1:20:03

Audience. share that with you and your audience.

Erica D'Eramo 1:20:06

Yeah. Thank you. And if anyone wanted to either, like connect with you or reach out, how would they do that? What's what's your preference?

Angela Parker 1:20:21

Well, I'm on LinkedIn. And so you know, as a professional network that seems appropriate. And my contact details are there when we connect. And so that's probably the easiest way. I am between jobs right now. But at least the profile stays up and running. Fortunately, even when, when we aren't settled yet, so that's the easiest place to get me now.

Erica D'Eramo 1:20:43

Well, I'm guessing by the time this episode airs that you might be settling in, since it sounds like great things are on the horizon for you and in the works. So we really appreciate you taking the time while you have it. And yeah, thank you so much.

Angela Parker 1:21:01

Well, thank you, Erica. Thank you for having me.

Erica D'Eramo 1:21:04

For our listeners. If you would like to find the transcript for this episode. You can find it on our website. And you can find all the details for connecting with Angela on LinkedIn either in the show notes or on our website in that transcript, and we look forward to seeing you next episode.