Leadership coach Laura Jack joins us to discuss compassionate communication and how it relates to leadership as well as diversity, equity and inclusion. As a keynote speaker and trainer, compassionate communication and leadership coach, international best-selling author and founder of the Compassion Code Academy, Laura equips conscious leaders with compassionate communication and coaching skills so they can lead from the heart without losing their authority, efficiency, or effectiveness. She provides in-depth training for individuals and organizations who want to create a culture of compassion and leave a legacy of love for future generations.
This episode delves deep and explores weighty topics such as grief, loss, and trauma - topics that make many of us uneasy, especially when wearing our leadership hats. We discuss some of the myths around grief and healing, and how we can show up for those in our lives who are struggling, whether in our teams, our families, or ourselves.
To find out more about Laura and her offerings, or to learn more about her book The Compassion Code, you can check out her website at www.laurajack.com.
Transcript below:
Erica D'Eramo 0:05
Hello, and welcome to the Two Piers podcast. I'm your host, Erica D'Eramo. And this is season four. So today we have another guest joining us, a fellow coach. Her name is Laura Jack. So as a keynote speaker and trainer, compassionate communication and leadership coach, international best selling author and founder of The Compassion Code Academy, Laura equips conscious leaders with compassionate communication and coaching skills so they can lead from the heart without losing their authority, efficiency or effectiveness. She provides in-depth training for individuals and organizations who want to create a culture of compassion and leave a legacy of love for future generations. I love that. So thank you so much for joining us, Laura. I can't wait for this conversation.
Laura Jack 0:54
Yay. I'm so glad to be here. Thank you so much for having me.
Erica D'Eramo 0:58
Yeah. So, you know, tell us a little bit about yourself. Just, you know, how you came to do the work you you do, and you know, your origin story a little bit?
Laura Jack 1:09
Yeah. So, you know, it's interesting, because I kind of think some things we're just born with, like some ways that we are. And one of the ways that I was born was I love to, I've always loved to support people on journeys in their life. And that started really, when I was really young person, I always loved babysitting, even when I was a kid, like, I always loved little people, like little kids. And I loved hanging out with them, I was so curious about them, and about the way that their minds worked and the way that they saw the world. And even when I was like nine or ten, I was like hanging out with like, neighbor, kids and like, being super curious. And so I've just always been a curious observer of humans, that's just been my thing. And, you know, when I, as I grew up, I always was a mentor, and I always supported, you know, kinda, younger kids, right? Younger people, and my, my journey of getting where I am today, and being all those things, that you you shared in my, in my bio, it was really through a series of always following my heart. So, you know, my, I say to my clients follow the golden breadcrumbs, because they'll lead you wherever you like, wherever it's best for you to go. And so one of the things that I feel like I'm most proud of in my life is that I've had a tendency to follow my heart. And I don't think that's something that a lot of people can really say is that they've spent their life following their heart. Right? So I've had, you know, that's a privilege on many levels is that I've had that opportunity and those opportunities, and I've taken advantage of them. And so, you know, when I, so my mom died in 2008, and it was really set in and tragic, and that really kind of plucked me out of the world that I was living in. I was living down in Central America running a hostel with friends from college. We had started hostels and bars, and it was this like, crazy, exciting, fun time in our lives. And at the same time, you know, I kind of was getting this itch for whatever was going to come next. And I remember being like, I just kind of want to go home for a little while. And like, literally, my mom died like two weeks later, in like a tragic accident. And I was like, wait, wait, wait, that was not what I meant. When I said I wanted to go home. And that led me on this journey to really discover what I wanted to do and how I wanted to be in my life. Because I had always been a lover of life. I loved life. And I always really enjoyed meeting people and exploring and adventuring. And after my mom died, I just, I was at a complete loss. I actually felt like I didn't know if I would ever be happy again. And I felt just a deep, a depth of sadness that I had never known. And that kind of led me on this journey to rediscovering my love for life. I was like, Well, I've know, I know, I've loved it before. So like, I know, it's possible, which is a leg up on most people, because I feel like so many people never loved life. So when they go through tremendous tragedy or loss or trauma or whenever, it's like, "Well, how do I get out of this?" Because I've, I've still Oh, like, yeah, I don't really even know. So I feel so I felt so lucky that I had kind of a roadmap, because I had been there I'd loved life. And so that kind of led me down the path of like, I want to I want to do things that like fill me up. I want to help people. I want to be around people. So I left the hostel life, I left that world and came to the States, came back to the States. I went to massage school, and decided that I wanted to, like, you know, help people's bodies heal. And I had experienced so much healing through my body, like through doing massage, going to getting massages, I was like, gosh, I'd really like to be able to help other people in this way. Because we, one of the quotes in massage is like, the issues live in the tissues. Like, we carry so much in our body. And so, so anyway, massage school led to me becoming a health coach, I really loved health and wellness. And I was like, I really want to, you know, take care of my body, and holistic, you know, holistic healing. And then I realized, you know, I really want to help people love their life after loss. And so I actually studied all I could find to become a grief specialist. And I specialized in grief for a long time, almost ten years where that was like my primary focus. And what I realized in that time, as I became a trainer for the Grief Recovery Institute, which is an organization that's been around for now, probably about 40 years, was, gosh, I was training all these people who were counselors, and clergy and social workers and PhD psychologists and psychiatrists, and people who are here to help people in times of crisis. And they really even struggled with knowing how to help grieving people, and how to talk to grieving people. And so I ended up writing a book called "The Compassion Code: How to Say the Right Thing When the Wrong Thing Happens." And it was because I saw this massive gap.
Erica D'Eramo 6:49
Yeah.
Laura Jack 6:50
And I was like, well, if all these people who are brilliant and well-educated, don't know how to help grieving people, then how is your average person going to know? And yeah, and so I wrote The Compassion Code through years of running grief support groups, and hearing grieving people be like, these people said, these terrible things to me and it creates so much isolation and disconnection and sadness and more loss. Right?
Erica D'Eramo 7:18
Yeah.
Laura Jack 7:18
And so I created The Compassion Code. And then secretly, I also wrote it as a guide to not burning out or overextending yourself when you are the helper. Right? So when you're the helping person, when you're that like loving heart with ears, how do you not burn out in that process? How do you not take on the weight of the world? Because I know as a person myself, who like loves big, it can be so easy to like, take on other people's pain. And so
Erica D'Eramo 7:47
It becomes unsustainable, right?
Laura Jack 7:48
It becomes unsustainable. Exactly. Yeah. So yeah. So here we are. Fast forward, I started speaking about The Compassion Code to organizations because when people were going through challenges within an organization, whether it was the death of somebody, or whether it was a big merger and acquisition, or whatever big change was happening internally, inside a company, they were bringing me in to talk about grief and talk about communication. And so that led to creating The Compassion Code Academy, which is essentially my leadership and communication training for people who really want to be inspiring, compassionate leaders, who want to like, be the leader that people want to follow in the world, right? Who know how to say the right thing when the wrong thing happens, because the wrong thing happens all the time. Right? Like, yeah, really tough stuff is always going on. That's part of being a human. Right. And so how do we navigate that with grace, but without taking on a burden emotionally?
Erica D'Eramo 8:51
Right. Yeah, I feel like society doesn't like to talk about grief very much.
Laura Jack 8:57
Nope.
Erica D'Eramo 8:58
We like to kind of keep it in its box. Maybe because people have so many complex feelings about it about saying the wrong things about doing more harm than good.
Laura Jack 9:09
Exactly.
Erica D'Eramo 9:09
And also because like it reminds, when we face people looking at mortality, it reminds us of our own mortality and our own, you know, undealt with issues and so there's a lot.
Laura Jack 9:20
Oh, you're 100% Right. You know what's been so fascinating, though, over the last few years since going through COVID. I feel like it's become less taboo and more common for people to actually speak about these difficult subjects, which has been one of the silver linings of COVID is that we're actually talking about our mental health, we're talking about grief. We're talking about loss in a different way than we ever have. And so, you know, that gives me a lot of hope for the future.
Erica D'Eramo 9:52
What do you think changed? I mean, like, what was it about... I have my theories, but I'm curious, you know, what was it that kind of was the breaking point where some of the stuff started to come out in the open?
Laura Jack 10:05
You know, I believe that it just got too big to continue brushing under the rug.
Erica D'Eramo 10:11
Yeah.
Laura Jack 10:12
And we recognized for the first time ever, which is something that I teach, and I know through all my training is that grief is not just death. It is,
Erica D'Eramo 10:22
Yeah.
Laura Jack 10:23
It's, it's the end. Like one of the definitions that we use in the Grief Recovery Institute is "grief is the conflicting feelings that come at the end of or change in a familiar pattern of behavior," which has COVID written all over it, right. But it's like, every time we go through a change, we experience conflicting feelings, even with death. You know, sometimes, especially if there's been long term illness, we experienced devastation and relief simultaneously. And, and so it's like really making spaciousness for all the feelings to be accepted. Because they're not, we're not bad for feeling them. When somebody retires for example, something we look forward to all of our lives, right? We talk about it from the time we're young, I can't wait to retire, but I want to retire early. And then we get there and there's a lot of times a loss of identity that comes the retirement, there's a loss of feeling important, because you might have identified so strongly with your career and, and that now like, "Well, what am I what am I here for now?" Right? There's a lot of illness and death that happens directly after retirement if people don't have a plan of how they're going to spend their time in life, you know, after after that. And so, milestone grief is a fascinating one for me, because it's like all the major changes in life, getting married, having kids moving. All the big things that we congratulate people for have parties for, those often are some of the greatest grieving experiences of our lives.
Erica D'Eramo 11:52
Yeah, yeah. It's funny as you list those things off, because maybe the most stressful point in my life was right after I had like, finished a really big, really large role. I had, like, started a sabbatical. I got into grad school, I got married, we renovated and moved house like all of these big life milestones that I was getting congratulated for. And I was literally breaking out in hives, because I wasn't integrated with the emotional mental changes. And my body was like, sounding all the alarm bells,
Laura Jack 12:24
And our bodies, and our tendency is to say, what's wrong with me? I should be happy. I shouldn't be excited, because everybody's telling me I should. And so that should is like a really dangerous voice in our own heads, but also in the in the heads of others. Because when we should ourselves, right when we should Oh, I should feel grateful. I'm getting I got into graduate school, I should feel grateful I have the resource to renovate my house, I should feel grateful. I fell in love and I'm getting married, right? But then there's no space for all the other feelings, which is, oh my God, but like, I'm getting married, which means I'm going to have to like combine all my things. And there's like, all the paperwork and like, we're combining houses or waiting to we're moving in together for the first time. Or maybe, like, what does this mean? I'm actually saying goodbye to being single.
Erica D'Eramo 13:12
Identity shifting. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Laura Jack 13:14
Everything! And like getting into graduate school. Okay, so now I'm like going into debt, like, am I going to be able to pay off my debt and like, just literally the millions of thoughts and feelings that go into each of those that are incredibly stressful that that "should," really does us a disservice. Because then it we feel bad that we feel bad.
Erica D'Eramo 13:36
And it introduces this element of shame that I find to be so corrosive to like the growth that is available in those moments, right?
Laura Jack 13:46
Exactly.
Erica D'Eramo 13:47
In all of this, when you mentioned the element of like sadness and relief, especially for caregivers who maybe are just, that relief might be pretty intense. Right? And, and yet, society doesn't allow space for that. And there I could see there being elements of shame, brought in.
Laura Jack 14:10
Guilt and shame. They're definitely like, it's very common. And one of my favorite things to do in my profession is to just normalize people's whole experience.
Erica D'Eramo 14:20
Yeah.
Laura Jack 14:21
Because it's just like, you're not doing it wrong. You're actually doing it just right by having all the feelings, right. And one of the things even about having a baby, right people like it's a blessing and it's on it's also like, the most challenging disruptive thing that ever happens. Right? It's like, yeah, and people who struggle with infertility have this extra layer of guilt. Like I wanted this so badly. And now it's so hard. I feel shame that this that I'm like, having a hard time with this, because I should feel grateful that I was even able to have a baby because it was so difficult. I paid all this money, whatever, fill in the blank all the things, and so there's, "I should feel better about this because I wanted it so badly." But like, they're not mutually exclusive. Like, you're allowed to be both grateful that you were able to and also like, damn, this is hard. Try like,
Erica D'Eramo 15:14
Or like, god forbid someone who society views as needing to be maternal displays anything resembling resentment or frustration, right? Yeah.
Laura Jack 15:26
Exactly. Well, we have this whole martyr complex instilled inside of our society of like, in order to be a good mother, we must be a selfless mother. In order to be a good employee, we must be selfless and not take breaks. And not and not take vacation. And it's almost like in our culture, it's been instilled. Like in North America, particularly, like, don't take breaks, don't take vacations, like we look at Latin America, which I lived in Latin America for seven years, we're like, "Oh, they're not productive, because they take siestas, and you take breaks in the afternoon." And like, there's always people at the beach, if you're in Rio de Janeiro, like you always are gonna see people out of the beach. And people are like, how do they do it? Because they're not working? Like they're living? Like they have a work life balance that we don't understand.
Erica D'Eramo 16:13
Yeah, that's when I find it really interesting about like, what is the goal here? And if the goal, my goal, for my time on this planet will probably be to live a happy and fulfilling life? And not to have X number of productive minutes in it, like that. At the end of the day?
Laura Jack 16:34
Have you seen the the wishes of the dying? Have you seen that is a fairly popular?
Erica D'Eramo 16:42
I have not, I have heard about it, but I've not. But yeah,
Laura Jack 16:46
The five wishes of the dying are typically like, I wish I had worked. And I can actually pull it up for us, because it's pretty easy to find. And I find it to be incredibly fascinating. Hold on one... just a second while we look.
Erica D'Eramo 17:00
Yeah.
Laura Jack 17:01
Okay. So the Top Five Regrets of the Dying: I wish I'd had the courage to live life, a life true to myself, not the life others expected of me. Number one. Right? And so these are, this is written by a woman who was a hospice nurse, I believe, who like to talk to 1000s of dying people. Right. And the second one is, I wish I hadn't worked so hard. The third one is I wish I'd had the courage to express my feelings. I wish I'd stayed in touch with my friends. I wish that I had let myself be happier. And I
Erica D'Eramo 17:44
These heartbreaking.
Laura Jack 17:45
Yeah, they are. But they're also like, so...
Erica D'Eramo 17:47
Amazing too.
Laura Jack 17:48
...inspiring because it's like, you know, how you talked about grief? Like, why do we avoid it. And one of the coolest phenomena I've ever heard about is called post traumatic growth.
Erica D'Eramo 17:48
Oh yeah!
Laura Jack 17:48
And it's like, the idea that through our suffering, we actually grow. And I believe, you know, for me, particularly after the loss of my mom, it was the greatest catalyst of my growth in my entire life. And, you know, I truly follow those regrets in, in a reverse sense, in the sense that, like, I do keep in touch with my friends, I don't... I do have a work life balance, you know, and, like, I really do try to express my true feelings as often as I can with the people that I love. And even with people that I just meet, you know, and and so it's been a guiding a guidepost for me about how I want to spend my life so that I don't have those regrets when I die.
Erica D'Eramo 18:47
Yeah, I think that's um, it's such an interesting and complex concept as well, post traumatic growth because it ties in so my feelings, my complicated feelings around like grit or toughness or resilience, all of these things that we do celebrate in society and maybe maybe so much so that that like tough individualist thing that maybe drives us to work too many hours, at least in this country. But the concept that I think society sometimes views grief as like this linear process, like this, post traumatic growth process is going to be like, directional. And we know it's not right, like it looks different for everybody. And sometimes, sometimes that there are scars or there are, you know, long term challenges that we bring with us along the way. And so, I love that integrated approach that you seem to have on this that like, all of the feelings are ballad, the journey and approach looks different. It's, I mean it's not always linear, right?
Laura Jack 20:06
Okay, well, even Elisabeth Kübler-Ross who wrote about the stages of death and dying, which was translated later into the stages of grief. She rebutted herself in her last book before she died, when she was like, these were never meant to put messy feelings into rigid boxes. This was not meant to be the stages of grief, because that makes us go against our own core nature to be like, "Well, I'm not experiencing these things." Right? Like, the Stages of Grief are actually way more relevant when it comes to death and dying, where it like it is a grieving experience to find out that you're dying, or it is a grieving experience to like, know that a relationship you're in is ending, right? And so those stages might actually be more relevant in those cases, but when someone actually dies, or we go through a grieving experience, we're typically not like, in denial, we might be shocked.
Erica D'Eramo 20:06
Yeah.
Laura Jack 21:03
But our denial is typically more related to death and dying, or the end of like a breaking-up of a relationship. So say, like, your partner tells you they want a divorce, you're more likely to experience what's traditionally called the stages of grief, which is, you know, like, first, we have denial, and then we have anger and all the things, but we're more likely to, like bargaining, we're more likely to have those when we're told that something is ending that we don't want to end, than we are when somebody actually dies. And the messiness of it... Part of why, you know, we don't like we want grief to be linear is because we want to know how to get out of it. But we have to go through it. Right, we have to
Erica D'Eramo 21:45
Tell me what the checkboxes are. What's my to-do list, what's my grief to-do lists? Gonna knock this one out!
Laura Jack 21:52
Right, exactly. Am I going to be done with this soon? Because like, this sucks! It's like, yeah, you know, I know it does, it really can. And one of the the analogies that I really like to use is the butterfly. So we're caterpillaring along. And we go through a major grief experience. And that sends us into our cocoon. And the cocoon is literally an obliteration of the caterpillar, like,
Erica D'Eramo 22:16
We liquefy.
Laura Jack 22:17
We liquefy, we get gooey and woozy and a mess. And, but like on the other side of that, when we actually allow it, which I feel like I have, that's part of why I get to be the butterfly I am today is because I actually allowed myself to disintegrate into nothing. And to then become the butterfly that I am today. But it wasn't, there are no steps inside of the cocoon, right? Like, sometimes we have to just dissolve. And we're dissolving our ego or dissolving who we thought we were. And one of the most beautiful parts about grief, in my opinion, is that it's one of the most fertile places for growth to happen, because it strips away all the bullshit. It strips away all of our like, just in that early, especially in the early stages, like, I just don't care about any of the things that I thought I cared about. It just strips it all away. And one of the things I used to say all the time is like, while you're awake, hear me now, like hear me while you're awake before you go back to sleep before you go back to the shoulds in the expectations and how you think you're supposed to, like, stay awake for a second and decide how do you want to live this one precious life that we have?
Erica D'Eramo 23:35
Yeah. Yeah, that just snaps me back to like, the moment and I think I've talked about this on the podcast before, but the moment that I knew I would make a change in my life, it was not actually there was a lot of grief involved. But I was like snapping into my helicopter harness in, about to leave the platform offshore in Angola. And we had had a bunch of helicopter crashes in the region and just in the industry in the past couple of months. And like my mortality just became so prescient, like so immediate, right then that when I snapped in, and it was like, if this bird goes down, will I have done everything I needed to do to be able to say on the way down like, "Well, I lived the life I wanted to live." And usually the answer to that was yes. Like I really did kind of go after whatever it is I wanted to do. But suddenly the answer was no. Maybe because it was more immediate, maybe because my priorities in life were shifting, but that was the moment I was like, oh, things need to change right now. They, all of these priorities need to change because nothing matters more.
Laura Jack 24:55
Well, and that's what near death experiences can do for people and even though yours was You were borrowing that resource from those who had died recently in in these helicopter crashes, you were like, I don't want their lives to be in vain either, right? Because they didn't, they did not make it and I'm here still, so am I living life to my like, my fullest the way that I want to be living, you know, and our mortality, you know, at the end of my book, I talk about, one of the best ways to really stay present in life is to live, like you're going to die. Because we are, we're all going to die, er, and so our mortality can actually be one of the greatest gifts for presence. Because it's like, okay, if I only have one year left to live in my living at the way I want to, if only have six months left to live, am I living the way I want to if I only have a week left to live? Am I living the way I want to? If today, were my final day? Is this how I want to live my life? And I just feel like asking ourselves those questions. Just awakens something inside of us that has the potential to truly transform us and begin living in a way that doesn't have us being those people who have those Five Regrets of the Dying.
Erica D'Eramo 26:13
Yeah. Yeah, that really resonates. I want to circle back a little bit to one of your comments, and maybe switch gears a little bit when one of your comments about like the different elements, or the different... I guess the different ways that grief can present. And we've we mentioned, you know, death of a loved one, our own impending death, death of a relationship. And we kind of touched on identity. Right now, there's a lot going on about layoffs about people getting, you know, laid off, fired, maybe shifted, moved out of their roles. And the tech industry just went through like massive amounts of layoffs. And I think there is so much there that feels like unacknowledged grief, because of the pieces we talked about. Like there's the identity piece. There's also like, oh, and maybe this is the case in almost all grief. But the we're like mourning the death of the future we had envisioned that is no longer available.
Laura Jack 27:36
One of my favorite definitions of grief is the loss of hopes, dreams and expectations.
Erica D'Eramo 27:42
Yeah, it's that, right?
Laura Jack 27:44
It's like, "Wait, I thought the tech industry was invincible." Right, like, and we all of a sudden isn't and it breeds so much fear because of what we thought. So then there's like the fear of what is going to happen.
Erica D'Eramo 27:58
Right! With COVID, right. That's what we saw, like, the government can't save you. Medicine. And you know, all of these systems that we looked to for for many people looked to for safety. Especially people in power and with privilege, I think, thought that those systems would keep it together. And then we saw things unravel and that, I think that really shook people's sense of safety, their sense of security. And so there's almost like, a grieving of that, right, that trust or that reality that we had perceived/
Laura Jack 28:42
We are absolutely grieving, the trust that we had, in the systems that we had built that we thought were pretty much indestructible.
Erica D'Eramo 28:52
Yeah, so anyone who has been laid off, anyone who has had to endure that kind of change, that was not of their own design, I think goes through that process. But then what you mentioned is true to that the people who are left who didn't get laid off. Also, now their reality has been shook.
Laura Jack 29:13
Totally. There's the the survivors grief, right? Because it's like, right like that. And that can happen with death. But it can also happen with layoffs, where it totally shakes the morale of those who are left behind, because they lost their friends, like their friends don't work there anymore. They feel guilty that they still have a job. Like, you know, there's all that complexity as well. And so it's just so normal to grieve what, what is, right, and what has been. And and also like, the expectations, the hopes and the dreams of what you thought your future was going to look like. Right? And then it's like, and there's just so much fear, there's so much fear, right? And that that makes that's just an added layer on top of the grief. Right? So first, we have to just honor the grief and acknowledge, this is a grieving experience. Right? And it's a grieving experience and loss of the hopes, dreams and expectations of what we thought was going to happen. Like how we thought this was going to go. And and so, you know, it's the first step in any kind of grief experience is just acknowledging all the feelings and letting them all be valid. And sometimes that's all it is. That's all we need, is just having the spaciousness to acknowledge them. Be like these feelings that you're having, are so valid.
Erica D'Eramo 30:33
Yeah. Yeah. Oh, but feelings are icky. We don't like to bring feelings into it. Right.
Laura Jack 30:41
Right, exactly. Well, you know, one of the things
Erica D'Eramo 30:44
Vulnerability, oooh, scary!
Laura Jack 30:45
I talked about I was on I was on a little podcast, like an Instagram live yesterday with someone, a friend of mine, and I was talking to her about that feelings are like the clouds. And above the feelings, it's always sunshine, there's always you know, the sky above, it's still sunny, like when you take off on your airplane, and you go above the clouds, the sun still shines. Even if you live in Seattle, you know what I mean? Like, even if you haven't seen the sun in a while, like, if you break through the clouds, it's still there. And we know it's still there, or we wouldn't be alive on earth. Right because the like the Earth can last like less than 18 hours or something if if the sun went away, right? So our feelings are the clouds in the sky. And they come and go, and the only time that they actually torment us, is when we hold on too tightly to them. And we don't let them flow in and out when we suppress them they stay with us longer, when we don't allow them to flow. That's why we say tears are better out than in. Anger, even just like in a safe way is better out than in, needs to be expressed. Our feelings need to be expressed because if we hold on, they torment us. In Spanish, the word tormenta means storm, right. When we hold on to our feelings, they become a storm in the sky.
Erica D'Eramo 32:06
Yeah.
Laura Jack 32:06
But when we like let them flow in and out. They're just like clouds.
Erica D'Eramo 32:10
Yeah.
I mean, that, yeah, that relates so much to mindfulness practice,
Laura Jack 32:16
Totally.
Erica D'Eramo 32:18
There's been a lot of research too on trauma recovery, and, and how the key is not... when we talk about resilient outcomes versus traumatic outcomes. The key is not just like toughness, put on the shell, push through, get through tough, right. The key is actually integration of like, the reality of it and the complexity of it and integrating it into, so that it's not just like popping up, you're burying. And it's like, oh, I'm here. No, it's integrating it into your reality. And there's like, pieces of acceptance in that.
Laura Jack 32:56
Absolutely. And really, like, one of my favorite teachers, her name is Byron Katie, she wrote a book called Loving What Is, and it's really like accepting our reality. And in a way that is like, even beyond basic acceptance, like, I love what is because this is the only thing that actually truly exists. Right? And I love that, and it's difficult. It's a difficult concept to be with. And it is so profound when we can actually make that shift is like, Well, this is the reality. So how can I love this reality that we have? Right? And so the resilience and the grit that you speak about, you know, like, becoming, like when I talk about thriving, for example, I'm not talking about like, being happy all the time. Forever.
Erica D'Eramo 33:43
Toxic positivity! Yeah.
Laura Jack 33:45
I'm talking about knowing how to find your way back to center, inside yourself, finding peace and calm in the storm. I'm talking about how to be in presence, even when things aren't good.
Erica D'Eramo 33:59
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it... It always makes me chuckle a little bit when, you know, if I'm leading, like a mindfulness practice, and there's noises or something, right. And people are like, "Oh, we have to, like, make the noises go away." It's like, no, no, no, this is this is the this is the practice. This is literally the practice. This is the point, right? It's not about when things are still and perfect. Being present, is not difficult then.
Laura Jack 34:31
I went on a week long personal growth retreat. And it was so amazing. And it was so wonderful. And every morning was meditation, and there was like, we did yoga, and we did all these things, and I slept well and we ate well, and it was beautiful. But that's not where the true growth and integration happens. It's when you get home and I have to go back to being a mother and a wife and a business owner and a daughter and a sister and a friend. And, and life is happening all around me. The noise there, and how do I stay mindful? How do I stay conscious? How do I stay present? How do I stay compassionate, to both self and other, when I walk out of my office or when I get back from the retreat, because like I can be, I can feel enlightened all day long on my coaching calls, I can be like at the peak of my enlightened state, and then I walk out of my room, and I'm still a mom, and my kids are yelling, and like, I have to deal with the chaos. And if I can't handle it there, then it's not integrated.
Erica D'Eramo 35:38
Yeah, I mean, for any of the yogi's listening, it's like, we all know that nailing a handstand might feel great, but it's the falling out of the handstand, that is, that's the practice, right? It's the growth, it's
Laura Jack 35:51
And it's how we respond to the falling out. And like, cause I'm going to come out of my office, my kids are like yelling or yelling at each other, or, you know, whatever. And then it's like, how do I respond to that.
Erica D'Eramo 36:07
So with that, like, that segues nicely into the work that you do with leaders on compassion. So tell me a little bit more about that work, and maybe some insights that you've drawn from it
Laura Jack 36:19
Totally. So to me, the secret to Compassionate Leadership is self compassion. So one of the questions I love to ask when I'm out in the in the field, you know, or I'm talking to an organization, is I like to say, how many of you consider yourselves compassionate or kind, like, on a regular basis? And because of the work that I do, I typically work with people who care, like I work with companies and organizations who really genuinely care about other people, whether it's health care, or education, or whatever it is. And so most people raise their hand. Okay, yeah. 90% are like, and some of them are half hands, but they're there, right? And then I say, How many of you are kind to yourself on a regular basis? And the number goes dramatically down to maybe,
Erica D'Eramo 37:14
Oh, of course,
Laura Jack 37:15
5%.
Erica D'Eramo 37:17
Yeah.
Laura Jack 37:18
And that discrepancy is where burnout lives. Because if I am giving something that I am not giving to myself, or that I'm willing to receive, then I am going to burn out. How can I be a compassionate leader? How can I communicate kindly externally, if inside my head, I'm kicking my own ass at every turn.
Erica D'Eramo 37:46
It's also it also feels disconnected as well. Like if the, if your natural practice is harsh words, internally, what is happening that is modifying that pattern when it goes external? Like is it even genuine? You know, if you're treating people nicely, that's not the same. Like, being polite is not the same as being compassionate, right? It's
Laura Jack 38:15
Right. That's why I say nice and kind are two different things.
Erica D'Eramo 38:18
Oh 100%.
Laura Jack 38:19
Being compassionate sometimes means speaking a difficult truth with kindness.
Erica D'Eramo 38:25
Yeah.
Laura Jack 38:26
Right. It's like, Hey, I see that your performance has gone way down. And I think you're an amazing human. And I really want to see you successful. And I just want to check in, what's going on? Because, like, Are you doing okay? Like, it seems to me that like, there's so I'm noticing like, just that you're not, you know, performing at the same level as you usually do. And that's okay. And I want to talk to you about it before it gets to the point where we have to have the tough conversation where I have to say, you know, you have a one week time to show me that you're going to change your performance, because by then it's usually too late.
Erica D'Eramo 39:01
Yeah, yeah. That's fascinating, too, because then that brings in elements of courage.
Laura Jack 39:09
But why? Really think about it, Erica, why wouldn't we say that? Because we're scared that they're going to tell us the truth.
Erica D'Eramo 39:17
Yeah.
Laura Jack 39:18
I'm actually going through a divorce. My kid just got diagnosed with diabetes. My My mom just got diagnosed with cancer. My husband lost his job, and I'm really scared, like, fill in the blank grief experience.
Erica D'Eramo 39:31
Yeah, or just emotive... emotion, right. Like, it might even just be that the reaction you get in the moment is not as much sharing but maybe anger or resistance or tears or something like that. And all of those are things we don't want to deal with or feel.
Laura Jack 39:48
Exactly.
Erica D'Eramo 39:49
I think partick, I'm gonna make a generalization here, but particularly in the industries that I came from which are very male dominated, kind of hyper masculine. And they've done research that's shown that women in particular are not given a lot of that feedback, a lot of that tough feedback and are denied the opportunity to then rectify it or change it. Because people do not want to have a woman cry, or be the bearer of bad news or have the tough conversation, which to me is lacking courage. And it's unfair,
Laura Jack 40:28
Right, well and it really is not, it's not compassionate.
Erica D'Eramo 40:32
It's not compassionate.
Laura Jack 40:34
Right. And being nice is like, my mom used to say, if nice is the best word you have for somebody, then it's not good enough. Because it's like, it's just like baseline, right? It's like polite, right? It's just like, Oh, they're nice. My mom used to be like, "Well, that's boring. Like, tell me more." Right? Like, nice, not good enough. And compassionate. Sometimes means saying the thing that's hard. And again, we can always do it kindly, but it's like, yeah, giving someone a chance.
Erica D'Eramo 41:06
I think the other element that you introduced too in your kind of roleplay there a little bit was curiosity, that is to me, like curiosity is just such a superpower. And, and that was one element that seemed critical that you leveraged right there, right? Like, what is going on? Open curiosity, non-judgment, it was open ended questions. And
Laura Jack 41:32
Well and it came from and you notice my tone is caring, right? Tone matters, because I could say, "What's going on?!" Or you could say, yeah, "What's going on?" Right? Like, the tone does matter. And the words matter, right? Because I could say, "Why are you doing that?" Like in Compassion Code Academy, I talk a lot about like, don't use the word. Why? Because why? I know, it's completely defensive reaction. Right?
Erica D'Eramo 41:57
Yes, it's an open ended question. But let's not use it.
Laura Jack 42:01
It's not helpful. And it creates defensiveness, almost whichever way you use it.
Erica D'Eramo 42:05
100%
Laura Jack 42:05
Right. And so what's going on? Like, I'm really curious about what's going on, because you're great. Like, because truly, most of the time, like, when we notice a change, it's because it was good. And now it's not good. Right? So it's like, "Okay, so what's going on? Something must be going on with you. And if you don't want to tell me the details, that's okay. And," not but, and which is another great communication strategy, "And what can we do about it? So that, you know, in six months from now, or six weeks from now, we're not having the chopping block conversation?"
Erica D'Eramo 42:40
Yeah, I had some, especially like, when we bring interns in. And they always, deeply, deeply want to do a great job, and, you know, are at the very start of their careers and have gotten a lot of, especially for young women, you know, have gotten a lot of messaging through their lives that like, we need to be perfect, we need to be flawless. We can't we don't have room for errors and mistakes and all that. And so giving feedback, I've found can be, like needs a different set of words and, and skills perhaps, than say, when I was working offshore, right. But one of the ways that we've explored that conversation is like, "Okay, here are the options" kinda, I, I could withhold feedback. And to me that feels unfair. So, like, I want to know how you want to receive the feedback, because getting consent to be able to give that feedback, because when presented with that option of like, not getting the feedback or getting the feedback, we all want the feedback, right?
Laura Jack 43:55
Even if we're scared, even if we're scared.
Erica D'Eramo 43:58
Yeah, yeah. So withholding, it is just almost like cowardly on my part, even if it's gonna be a difficult conversation. And so I usually present like, you know, even if this is uncomfortable, to me, I respect you enough that, I know that you would want to hear the feedback because it would feel icky for me to withhold it and it would feel patronizing. And like,
Laura Jack 44:24
Right, well and I'm basically assuming that you can't handle it.
Erica D'Eramo 44:29
Right. Which is terribly, like infantilizing to me,
Laura Jack 44:36
You know what's so cool. So my daughter, my my kids go to a school called Acton Academy here in Austin. And Acton is... it started as an entrepreneurial school at the University of Texas, but now they were like, basically, like we need to get to these learners earlier. It's a disruptive education model. It's really cool because, so my daughter, she's a little older than my son, so she's getting different skills than he's getting but they do conflict resolution. And they also do feedback. And they do warm and cool feedback. So warm feedback stuff that we think you're doing well and cool feedbacks is stuff that like we think we could improve. Anyway, so last year, she gets her like, end of year feedback from her peers. They do like a 360 review, and they're like, seven years old. And I know, and so she gets all this feedback. And some of it like, felt harsh, you know, I was like, oh, like, cringing, like at this like, like, You're distracting during dadada, or like, You talk too much during dedede, and like, whatever. It's, and so some of it, I was like, Hey, I let like, what was it like to receive that feedback? You know, it feels a lot. Like I feel. I felt defensive, like, as I read it, and she's like, Well, it was really helpful, because how else are you gonna learn?
Erica D'Eramo 45:49
Yeah,
Laura Jack 45:49
And I was like, you know, I was just like that I was so impressed, because I was like, wow. So when we learn feedback, and how to give and receive it early, and often, then it's less, and and they're teaching, how important is to make mistakes and fail early and often so that you can grow, not that fail in like a night, one of the, you know, coaching expressions like failures, feedback, right? And so it just feedback. So you can do it differently,
Erica D'Eramo 46:16
It's either a win or learn, right?
Laura Jack 46:17
A win or learn. And so it's just been so fun to watch how her perfectionism dissipated as she began this school because the perfectionism is something that's familial, it comes from my family line. And it's also societal. But as she spends her two days in a school where failure is required for growth, and it's encouraged and supported, she's gotten so much more brave. Because yeah, it's like, "Oh, who cares? Like, so what if I mess up? We'll just try again, a different way." Right? And yeah, it's so inspiring for someone like me who grew up in a school system, where failure was not an option. And even making a B wasn't an option in my family. Right. And so yeah, it's just been so inspiring to see that we can change.
Erica D'Eramo 47:09
It's such a stark difference between that fixed mindset of like this B is reflective of your self worth, as a human being, and it will impact what you're doing at the age of 45, or whatever. Versus the growth mindset of just like, okay, noted, moving on, noted moving on, because the value is in the growth not in the checkmark or you're not reaffirming your self worth, or value as a human with each achievement that you get.
Laura Jack 47:42
I mean, I think that is probably one of the greatest growth in my growth opportunities in my life has been learning how to love myself, even when I don't achieve, because I'm a three on the Enneagram. So I don't know if you're familiar with Enneagram. But Enneagram, like, the three is the achiever. And to me, it's all about like, where we experienced, like, the desire to be loved, or like in my family, you achieve to be loved. Right? And so for me, it's like learning how to love myself, even if I'm not achieving at the level that is externally imposed upon me.
Erica D'Eramo 48:19
Yeah, I can't tell you how many coaching clients that, when I've said something, like, "I just want to reaffirm that your your value is completely independent of XYZ thing, right? Like your your value, and you're deservingness to be loved and affirmed is like, completely independent of this. Yeah, like because you're a human, just like, you would not withhold for your loved one or daughter or pet or whatever." And so many people that I've coached when confronted with that, like will break down in tears, because it's just such such a, I don't know, withheld secret? Or something in our society.
Laura Jack 49:09
We... part of how we are controlled is by having love be conditional.
Erica D'Eramo 49:18
Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Finding the roots of that I think are so so powerful
Laura Jack 49:24
Well, a lot of times, it's not even intentional from the part of our parents like that was just how they were raised and how their parents were raised. It's just a trickle down, beat down, right of like, "Well, if I help you be successful, then you'll be safe. And that is all that matters." Yeah. And so it comes from a place of love, but it's in a distorted form.
Erica D'Eramo 49:47
Yeah. So for the leaders that you work with, like for anyone listening who might be thinking, "Hmm, I might want to work with Laura. Some of the sounds interesting." How would you characterize somebody that would be like, you know, a good, a good match for you as a client, or an organization, that would be a good match for you?
Laura Jack 50:09
Yeah. So I feel that the people I work with they're typically mission or mission driven or conscious in their approach to how they want to like, the work they do matters to them. And it matters. Like, they're really trying to make the world a better place in whatever way shape or form, even if that's not their direct work, it's like undercurrent of their mission in life. And they want to be more competent or confident in their way. I got this message recently, I'll read this to you, because it was so fascinating. A person in my life reached out and said, said, "You know, I have been taking on more, I find myself increasingly managing and leading groups, and I don't feel like I quite have the skill set that I want. And this applies both at work and home." And I was like, "Well, yeah," like, we're not really taught a lot of these skills. And so for me, it's like working with organizations who really have a tendency to carry emotional burdens, but like, really don't want to. So they're really wanting to look out for the mental health and wellness of their people because of for, like, you know, for both the betterment of their organization, but also for retention, employee retention, and then enhanced leadership or like enhanced team, and cohesiveness within a team, because when a team is doing well, like as individuals, and then together, the way that they serve is so much more effective. So if like, if an organization is noticing that there's a lot of internal struggle, that's when they usually bring me in is because they're like, "We want to help bring our teams together in a more cohesive way. We want to help give these individual skills to communicate more effectively." And really, like when leaders come through Compassion Code Academy, they're like, "I just want to be a better communicator, I want to be the kind of leader that people want to follow." And so that's, that's the tendency of the people who I end up serving as, like people who really, genuinely want to be better. And, and my secret is like, and we're going to help you love exactly who you are. And then I'm going to give you a bunch of skills and tools to go in your toolkit so that you can be the effective change maker that you want to be in the world and influence, like positive influence for good.
Erica D'Eramo 52:37
Yeah, yeah, that's really powerful. So you also you have a book, you have a change Academy, how would people access all of these wonderful things that you have out there in the world?
Laura Jack 52:49
Yeah, so they can just visit thecompassioncodeacademy.com, which is my website, and they can find my book there, they can find the programs there they can find, I have a membership site for people who aren't quite ready to take that leap into the, to the big, the big unknown, the scary self compassion track, which is like the leadership and communication as it's called. But the the membership is really just for people who want to dip their toe in and begin that journey of compassion for self and others and learn the communication strategies. And then you know, but they can find me just on my site, and really just like, I'm @LauraJackCoaching on Instagram, right, like, so if they want to, like follow along with my journey. But yeah, I'm in all the places LinkedIn, do
Erica D'Eramo 53:37
We'll put all that in the show notes, too. So if you're listening in here, this you can find all that.
Laura Jack 53:41
Yeah, that's great. And I just like I, honestly, my biggest aspiration is to be of service, and to help people love themselves and normalize their experiences in life so that they can be that for other people, like the Normalizer, the Helper, the Lover. That's really my goal. And what I want most in the world is just to be able to shine so brightly that, like, my rays have rays. Right, like
Erica D'Eramo 54:10
A virtuous circle.
Laura Jack 54:12
Right, exactly. So
Erica D'Eramo 54:13
Cycle. Yeah,
Laura Jack 54:15
Cxactly. Circle cycle booth.
Erica D'Eramo 54:17
Oh, yeah, both. So thank you so much for coming on, and talking about these weighty topics with like, joy and openness. And it's been really great for me, it's been a great conversation. And I really hope that more people out there are equipped with the tools to recognize, manage grief, find the compassion in their leadership, and, and reach out to you for all of the wonderful things you're offering.
Laura Jack 54:53
Thank you so much. And thank you for having me. I love having these deep conversations. And so thank you for being willing to go to these places. And for the work that you do as well, it's really, I mean, I got to see you speak and that was what was so inspiring to like, see how we're, you know, both on parallel paths doing our work to help make the world better.
Erica D'Eramo 55:14
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. For anyone else looking to engage with two peers as Well. You can find us always twopiersconsulting.com and all the social medias as well you know where to find us. So, thank you, Laura. Really appreciate it.
Laura Jack 55:30
Thank you.