Diversity on the Board

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Transcript Below

Erica D'Eramo 0:06

Hello, and welcome to the Two Piers Podcast. Today we will have a special guest joining us from the business world. His name is Cliffe Killam, and he recently took the helm as Chairman of the Board of the Laredo Chamber of Commerce. And he has quite the story to share with us.

So Cliffe, welcome to the podcast.

Cliffe Killam 0:38

Thank you, Erica, for for having me. Excited, excited to be here.

Erica D'Eramo 0:41

Yeah, we appreciate it. So we really want to explore some of the stories that you have to share with us. But first, I wanted to get a little background on you. So tell us a little bit about yourself.

Cliffe Killam 0:56

Sure, yeah, happy to share that. I'm the president of Killam Development and Killam Oil Company. And we're a family owned, private family owned business. And I work here with my my father, we're based in Laredo, Texas. And we've been in business for over 100 years, and I'm the fourth generation. And my brother also works here as well in our field operations. And, yeah, we, you know, in terms of a little bit about me, I sort of have a little bit of a different background for the oil and gas industry. I have an undergraduate degree in English literature from Boston University, after I got out of college, worked as a field hand and kind of doing manual labor out there in the oil field. And said yeah, this is kind of a chance for me to kind of put the books down and kind of get my hands dirty. And that was a great experience, met some great people that way. And then I ended up going to the University of Texas, getting a master's degree there in a program called Energy and Mineral Resources, which at the time was housed in the petroleum engineering college and later got moved to the Jackson School of Geosciences. And that program is basically an interdisciplinary program that pulls from all the different disciplines that might be helpful to have a career in the oil and gas field. And from there, I moved to Houston, worked for a company called Wood Mackenzie, and did research and consulting there, and then got a job for a company called Harrison Lovegrove. The first day I started working there, we were, it was announced that we were acquired by Standard Chartered Bank, so became part of their corporate finance group. And we are one of the called top three, international M&A for in the upstream oil and gas business. And after that, did that for a little while, and then finally came home to, back to Laredo, and have been working here for about a decade.

Erica D'Eramo 3:00

Wow. So that's quite the journey. And I have to imagine that that journey has probably been through a lot of kind of male dominated spaces, a lot of oil and gas that I'm hearing. So that's what makes this kind of story that we wanted to talk to you about all the more interesting. So you took the helm as Chairman of the Board of the Laredo Chamber of Commerce, and you made a bit of a splash with some of your leadership decisions there. So tell us a little bit about that.

Cliffe Killam 3:35

Sure. I, I'm assuming you're referring to, I ended up appointing 10, 10 of my Board of Director appointees were all, were all female professionals, female leaders. And yeah, so really, really excited about that. You know, you know, basically every every chair gets an opportunity each year to, to make 10 appointments. And so I got my, my daughter was born on September 18th. And I was made the chairman on October 1st. And so we're, you know, so my, that was sort of in the back of my mind, and I went to the to our office over there and sitting sitting at the table with some of the staff and we were talking about, well, you know, what are some of the things I have to do now as chair and so we also have to go through these appointees. So I said, "Well, why don't we go, you know, kind of work on that?" And so as we're going through, you know, in my mind, I was trying to find, you know, people that were, you know, highly qualified professionals that also represented a diverse, diverse elements of our local economy. And so that was really what I was trying to do. And so I started kind of listing the names of people that I had worked with in some capacity on other boards are professionally and people that were highly accomplished. And so, you know, getting this cross section of the logistics industry and, you know, the real estate industry and, you know, healthcare and, you know, other other elements of, of the economy. And so, you know, we, we kind of looked kind of, as we kind of listed the names there, they just so happened to all, all six of them were were, you know, female leaders, and it wasn't really, you know, just sort of happened to shake out that way. And then that's where I kind of paused. I was reflecting on that, and I kind of looked up, and in the board room, there, you know, we have the, the Laredo Chamber has been around for over 100 years, and they have all the, you know, all the photographs of all the different previous chairs. And I asked, "Well, you know, how many, how many women have been chairs in the past?" And, you know, it's only been like, maybe, three, three or so, and, and then I was thinking about my daughter, and thinking about how she needs more female, you know, I want her to have more, you know, female role models in her life, and, and, and more, but, you know, more so. And so, yes, then we're there. Then I said, "Well, you know, in terms of the next four appointees that we have to make, you know," I said, "has anyone ever appointed 10 women before in our history, to this, to the Chamber board?" And so they said, you know, "No, that's never happened before." And I said, "Well, let's, let's make it happen." And so then I kind of asked, the staff just said, you know, you know, "I also don't want to be blinded, I don't want it to just be people that I know, you know, are there other other female leaders that are supporting the organization in some capacity on a grassroots level, that are really putting the time in that, you know, maybe I just happened to not know them very well. And that you think would be, you know, strong additions." So they made some additional recommendations. And that's kind of how we came up with our, our 10 appointees. And it's, it's really, you know, had a big a big impact. And, you know, even more so than that I, you know, could have imagined, and I can elaborate on that as well, if you'd like.

Erica D'Eramo 7:34

Yeah, absolutely. Let's explore that a little bit. But first, I want to understand why, why was it important to you to increase female representation? You kind of mentioned role models, etc. But was there anything else in that decision?

Cliffe Killam 7:53

You know, I wanted to, you know, I really, there was, there's primarily two things in my mind at the time. One was, I was thinking about my daughter, and you know so, she was sort of an inspiration for me to, and I wanted, and then in turn, use that so that she could be inspired. And I thought it was important, you know, when I was thinking, you know, 5, 10, 20 years down the road, you know, I hope that there's going to be more female chairs, photographs of them, you know, that had previously led the Chamber in the years to come. And so it's important for me to help to, you know, create some of those, you know, pathways. And then in addition, I also wanted to signal to the marketplace, that we were going to be doing things differently. And so, this was one way to basically say, we're going to we're going to do things there, you know, this is this is at the same thing I would say, too is, I mean, I, to certain degree, I, to be candid, I think I maybe didn't fully appreciate the impact that this would have in the community and at large. You know, I guess it's, you put 10 men on there, people wouldn't think twice. And so for me, I said, well, put ten women, I mean, it's, it's, I didn't really fully appreciate, you know, how that would make people feel in a positive way. And and really, it was, it's become a learning experience for me as I've had different female leaders come and confide in me and talk to me about different situations. And so it's really, it's not something that I think people often openly talk about, but I guess because of this, it really created a some additional conversations that helped me to appreciate I guess, how much of an impact it had.

Erica D'Eramo 9:57

Yeah, that's that's really kind of moving actually. So I, I'm interested in this, in this kind of selection that you went through, you spoke a little bit about your selection criteria, but I'm interested in how you think it might have differed, in this case, from how board members have been selected in the past that you ended up with a slate already kind of starting out with six members, or six selections that were already female leaders. So how do you think your selection criteria in this go around, may have differed?

Cliffe Killam 10:38

Well, you know, I don't want to I mean, what I would say is, I can share with you how I approached it, and, and I can't really speak to, you know, how other people approached it, but I can share with you mine, which was, it was important for me, to, to, the Laredo Chamber of Commerce is meant to represent as a non, it's a nonprofit that represents the business interests of, of its local economy, of the local, you know, the community that it represents. And so whatever is that kind of cross section of the economy, you want to find different folks that represent those different lines of businesses in there. So I made sure we had representation, I wanted to make sure we had representation in the logistics industry, and we in the real estate industry, I wanted to make sure that we had various educational institutions represented, higher education, as well as on a high school level that we had the, you know, hotel, hospitality industry represented, financial services. And, and so those are some of the different, you know, different industries that we had. And so I just picked different people and, you know, that either, you know, own their own business, or had been in a leadership role within a company. And, and that was sort of the criteria, and many of these ladies have, you know, I had worked with in some capacity in other nonprofits, or professionally and people that I respected and, and I thought, you know, they would add a lot of value, and really were, you know, got things done. And so that was, that was what I was looking for: people that can help. You know, you as the chair, you're, you're only there for, at least at the later Chamber of Commerce, you're only there for one year. And so I wanted to find people that would help me be more effective as a leader.

Erica D'Eramo 12:50

Yeah, that sounds like a really robust set of kind of selection criteria. So I'm, I'm curious, you mentioned that there's been a really positive impact, positive feedback. And I do want to explore that a bit more. But first, have you been confronted with any resistance around this decision?

Cliffe Killam 13:12

Um, you know, I, I wouldn't say that there was any resistance, I think was generally received extremely positive. I would say that there's maybe even a handful of people that approached me that it's not that they were resistant to it, but maybe they had a harder time putting it into, into context or into you know, perspective, and kind of understanding the decision. And so in certain ways, they've kind of said things that, you know, under, underminded, you know, sort of that decision, in a way, and again, I don't think there was any kind of, you know, malice per se, I think sometimes maybe it's just a generational thing, or it's, they just have a hard time understanding it, so, there were some comments that we're, you know, kind of oriented towards, you know, you know, sort of saying, oh, aren't aren't you, you know, you know, sort of having all these women around you, you know, isn't that such a nice, you know, sort of, you know, sort of more of a, I guess, I guess you say sexist way, you know, kind of oriented that way. And again, I think, you know, these are kind of typically older, you know, older people, I guess just sorta maybe had a hard time and I've had and it's not just from men, I've also heard from women. Very similar, you know, type of way of describing it, and I just think maybe, I don't think, you know, maybe I just sort of see you know, and see the best people, so I just I don't necessarily think they're coming in with a negative way of looking at it. I think it's just something that's a little harder for them to, you know, it's more of a generational type thing.

Erica D'Eramo 15:14

Yeah. And normalizing kind of seeing women in positions of power is, is part of the journey, I think, right, that we normalize it. And sometimes when I hear you talk about this, this story, or this, this journey that you guys have been on, it makes me think about this quote from Ruth Bader Ginsburg, and she said, "When I'm sometimes asked, 'When will there be enough women on the Supreme Court?'", basically, and she says, you know, "When there are nine." And people are shocked, and then she recounts, you know, but there, there have been nine men plenty of times, and no one ever raised a question about it. So when we normalize just seeing all men, all women, and nobody blinks an eye at it, that's when we kind of know that we've reached equality, perhaps, but just normalizing seeing women in positions of authority and power, I think, is part of the journey.

Cliffe Killam 16:11

For sure, for sure, that's, you know, we're you know, I mean, again, I go back to my daughter, you know, you know, so I mean, I want her to be this, you know, kick ass, you know, person, and let her, you know, I want her to do all the, you know, all the things that she wants to do in life and accomplish, and I think, you know, feel empowered, and to do the things that she wants to do with her life. And so, you know, I, like you said, I mean, there shouldn't be any boundaries or limitations for that. And so, I think that, you know, in order to, you know, create the world we want to live in, we got to do something about it now, you know, and so, and that's just kind of one small way, they just sort of, as you say, kind of normalize things are kind of, you know, it shouldn't be, I mean, in many ways, it shouldn't be a big deal, you know, and so and so I hope that over time that that's, you know, and, and also, I mean, I, you know, Laredo is a, I mean, it's got its own distinct culture and values. And so there's a little bit of machismo here and stuff. So, you know, I think also that kind of, you know, just sort of, you know, change, changing things up a little bit, and like you said, you know, normalizing those kinds of things.

Erica D'Eramo 17:23

It's interesting, because I think it's, it's actually pretty consistent across the US that purchasing power in many households is, in many cases held by women. Interestingly, and so, you know, what, to what extent did women's participation in the economy kind of play into your decisions?

Cliffe Killam 17:53

Um, you know, not so much. I mean, I, you know, I was really looking for accomplished executives, and, or people that represented other institutions that had leadership roles in different institutions. So, you know, like educational institutions, or maybe other nonprofits and to build those relationships. So it was, it was, it was more about, you know, finding, finding people that, that really were effective in, in making, making things happen. So that's, that's really what I was kind of looking for is that was kind of the main criteria for me was, you know, finding effective managers, leaders, people that are involved in the community, that are going to put the time in to volunteer, and ultimately, what, this is a volunteer organization, that they're going to be committed to helping us be better. And, and so, you know, this organization focuses on a lot of it is very much oriented towards government affairs. And it's on policy issues on a local level, a state level and on a federal level. And so we know we've written like, as an example, the Laredo is the largest, largest inland port in the country. $300 billion worth the trade coming through here. 18,000 trucks on the road, but Laredo also, you know, but under the previous administration, the bridges here were shut down for non-ess, quote, unquote, non-essential travel. And so you know, Mexican nationals coming to the US is a big part of our economy in terms of tourism and dollars spent, but we wrote letters in support saying, hey, look, this is really affecting the whole border region, and this is really important to us or when USMCA was happening, you know, write, you know, writing letters on that, having meetings on that. So those are the kinds of different issues, you know, with, with the, with the COVID happening now, you know, we're writing letters to and having meetings with our mayor and county judge and our governor, and talking about, you know, hey, you know, this is affecting bars and restaurants and hospitality industries and these other businesses, and, you know, what you're calling non-essential, you know, our people's livelihoods. And so, really just, you know, our job, you know, I think of the the mission of the Chamber is to, is to listen, support and advocate for our members and the business community. So that's, that's, and that was, so that's kind of, I was looking for people that were going to help, help me fulfill that mission.

Erica D'Eramo 20:55

Yeah, so really action oriented?

Cliffe Killam 20:58

Yes.

Erica D'Eramo 21:00

So what benefits have you seen so far, what impacts have you seen, I guess, of the, this kind of fresh slate of, of appointees?

Cliffe Killam 21:10

One of the things that I'm super excited about, and I was not expecting was that you the, the women that I appointed on there, you know, they got super fired up, and kind of, you know, it kind of really galvanized them. And so now, we're creating a Women Leadership Program as part of the Chamber. And so I'm really excited about that. They are, they're bringing in the other female members that are part of the Chamber. And so what they're doing is, they're looking at creating mentorship programs for female professionals, they're looking at also doing a speaker series to bring in different, you know, female leaders and thought leaders to come into town and speak to a female audience, but also a broader, you know, broader audience as well, but already, you know, kind of thematically on on some of those different issues. And then also looking at creating some fundraising events as well around recognizing female business leaders, and community leaders. So this has sort of emerged, it's this kind of really, you know, this, this import, now important part of the Chamber, and I'm absolutely thrilled about it, because it's, it's, it's my hope, and I think that will be is that this is now going to be a part of what we do in perpetuity. And so we're going to work really hard to maintain that. So I hope that, you know, my daughter will be able to be, you know, mentored through this program, you know, you know, 20 years from now and be able to, you know, go to some of these different, you know, lecture series, and all these other things are happening. So we're, you know, they've really, it's been really embraced by the membership. And it's actually helped us to recruit more female members and professionals. And so it's just this this virtuous cycle has been created. So it's really, it's really been very cool.

Erica D'Eramo 23:27

That's awesome to hear. That's really heartening. I think a lot of times when we hear stories like this, or just any effort towards increased diversity, and representation, there's always the challenge of like, is this a philanthropic effort? Are we doing this to be nice to women? And so I wanted to hear a little bit more about that, like, what are the actual business impacts of this? And it sounds like this is not just to be nice to women, right? This is actually improving the accessibility of the Chamber of Commerce and improving the operations. Have you seen any examples of kind of the way you've done things previously, versus the way you're doing them now changing?

Cliffe Killam 24:16

Well, I think that yeah, I mean, I would not I, you know, I, I'm, I'm, you know, I really just wanted the best, the best people to be part of the organization. And that's really, for me, that's the only thing I really kind of mattered, it sort of ended up happening that this sort of thematically, you know, kind of came together. And it's been really great to see that, you know, as I mentioned, you know, this Women Leadership Program has been created. I would say that, the, they're the, the, a lot of the female board members are, I think, just really fired up and really vested in there. And I think it also has inspired some of the, you know, male board members too and got them excited to see, hey, we're, we're changing things up. So I think, you know, overall, it's really just kind of helped to create more commitment and more more drive into getting things done and, and, you know, like many businesses and nonprofits across the country, I mean, it, COVID has been, you know, devastating. So, I think at a time when there's been a health crisis in our country, in certain ways, you know, economic crisis, and, and, and has also affected, you know, families and people in so many other ways, the isolation and so forth. I mean, I think this has really, you know, given us a sense of focus and purpose. And so I think people are just really excited to make a difference through the Chamber. And that's really been one of my goals is to, you know for the Chamber to become a really, not just some kind of a ribbon cutting organization, but to really be a platform to effect meaningful, positive change. And so that's, that's really been what I've been, you know, really focused on trying to deliver on.

Erica D'Eramo 26:27

Yeah, that, I mean, that's very inspiring, you're making me want to sign up for my local Chamber of Commerce. So hopefully, you know, we, this podcast gets heard by other people who wouldn't previously consider that and would, might think to themselves, like I could be a benefit to that type of organization, and I just never thought about it before. So thank you for that. So I'm interested in what the transition onto the board looked like, a lot of times, I think, and maybe, you know, either confirm or correct for me, um, organizations, like any other type of business are often self perpetuating with sort of bringing in informal contacts or, you know, people that you knew from your you know, your, your clubs, or your school or your friends or your net, your close network, people who look like us, act like us, are in the same circles as us. And sometimes it can be a bit self perpetuating. And that's how we end up with maybe like the boys club mentality of people that already are in our circle getting appointed to some of these roles. So in this case, you went kind of beyond your circle, and brought in new people who maybe didn't have that informal network. Have you found that there were any sort of trans, there was any transition support that was helpful for people coming into this that might not have sort of been operating in this circle before?

Cliffe Killam 28:12

You know, um, not really, I would say that, not really, I would say that, you know, all these women that were appointed, I mean, they're all very accomplished and experienced, and they've been on, you know, boards before and have been in, you know, high, you know, in executive type. So, if anything, I'm asking them for advice, you know, so, you know, I'm saying, you know, this is, you know, this, this is sort of a new, newer thing for me. I mean, I, this is the first time I've been chair of a, of a nonprofit. And so, so yeah, I, no, I kind of come in with a sense of more of humility and asking them, you know, you know, you know, how can I, you know, run the meetings more effectively, or how can I, you know, you know, how am I doing, you know, and how are we doing and kind of, you know, trying to chart out these different, you know, milestones and things we want to accomplish as an organization. So, you know, more than anything, I think it's really me, you know, just kind of talking to them getting their feedback to be quite, you know, candid and so, you know, the, really that's, you know, there's been probably one or two people on there that are, though my appointees that maybe are a little bit less experienced. But, so, you know, I wanted also to strike a balance. I mean, I didn't, you know, I wanted to also have some women in there that may be, you know, they were sort of, you know, rising stars, if you will, and so, you know, they you know, give put them, you know, give them an opportunity to to you know, get involved, rather than kind of, you know, sort of having to, you know, maybe takes longer someone's, you know, life, whatever to get into some of these different organizations on a senior level. So. So there was a little bit of that, and I and I, and I'm assuming that, you know, there's a little bit of internal mentoring there and so forth, but they're also holding their own too. And they're bringing fresh, you know, fresh ideas, to, to the meetings and to kind of some of the different initiatives that we're working on. So it's been, it's been really gratifying. So if anything, I've been trying to listen and learn from them. Actually,

Erica D'Eramo 30:46

Yeah. Wow, that sounds great. And that internal mentoring can be so valuable as well.

So I'm, I'm curious soon what you think the barriers to entry were before? Like, why is this the first time that you've had a board of? Or that you've had a full slate of appointees that included so many women?

Cliffe Killam 31:11

You know, I'm you know, it's hard for me to, to answer that, you know, I think that I don't want to cast any aspersions or anything like that, or make any assumptions. But I mean, I think that I'm sure it's, as you mentioned, I mean, sometimes people make choices that they're more comfortable with, or maybe they're more used to, or this kind of cultural things, I guess, sometimes. But, you know, I really wasn't focused on, you know, why people made those decisions in the past, I was really kind of focused on, on on the future and helping to, to make a positive impact, you know, going forward. So that was really kind of the mentality I was trying to take and just just try to be, you know, positive and really try to make a make a strong impact there.

Erica D'Eramo 32:19

Yeah, that does sound very positive. So do you think that this will be a turning point, kind of for a bit of sustainable change or representation? Do you think that maybe this won't be such a rare occurrence going forward?

Cliffe Killam 32:35

Well, I hope that's the case. I mean, that's what you know, that's what I was so encouraged, by this effort to create this new Women's Leadership Program, because, you know, the idea is that that could be coming in on an ongoing program, so there's their, you know, our, our board members, and our members are putting a lot of time and energy into creating a mentorship program and, and bringing in speakers and looking at, you know, recognizing different female leaders, so, you know, putting in sort of the foundation for that, so that this becomes a strong part of the Chamber, going forward, and, and therefore, kind of institutionalizing that in a way where, you know, it will be, it's just going to be a normal part of, part of the, of the nonprofit.

Erica D'Eramo 33:36

And love that, yeah, I love that idea of kind of institutionalizing, putting in the systems in place, so that it's not just left up to our human brains that are obviously subject to our own biases or heuristics. So I think that's great.

Cliffe Killam 33:54

Yeah, I think, you know, sometimes it's, you know, just to help you create that, you know, consistency, and sometimes people don't necessarily, I mean it's not that they, it just helps to reinforce that, you know, like you said, it helps to put it, you know, kind of structurally into, into the organization.

Erica D'Eramo 34:12

Yeah, absolutely. So, were there any, you know, final thoughts that you wanted to close with? And we really appreciate your time here, and this has been really insightful. So, any any last, like leaving thoughts that you want to leave us with?

Cliffe Killam 34:29

Well, you know, I think I, you know, like I said, it's been very insightful for me to, to you know, make these choices and then seeing you know, how how it was received in the marketplace and, you know, it's really helped to help me kind of enlighten, enlighten me more. I've had a, I've had an employee, come up to me, and tell me how much, it really meant to her and it really got her excited. And also, you know, wanted, wanting to join the Chamber. And she talked to me about her sister who's a doctor in Austin and how, you know, how people always think she's the nurse, you know, or she's the, you know, assistent in some way. And so, you know, I think that that's, you know, those aren't, those aren't conversations prior to this that anybody normally had with me or, you know, shared, shared those kind of things with me. And so I wasn't really as aware of some of the different challenges that that that women may face. And so, for me, it became a really powerful experience, you know, to have different women, you know, confide in me and, and talk to me and share different stories and how it was, you know, how that decision was so meaningful to them. And I don't think I really fully appreciated the impact until afterwards. And so for me, it's been very moving. And, and so I've really wanted to sort of embrace it. And, you know, like I said, I want to be the best leader that I can be, the best father that I can be, the best husband that I can be. And so I mean, I think that, it's, you know, this is hopefully it was, it's just one on one small step. And so, and I hope that I'm really excited to see what future things happen in the Chamber and excited to help you know, you know, be a part of that.

Erica D'Eramo 36:47

Yeah, that sounds just so impactful and valuable, as a business leader, because this is one part of your life, but you're, you're a business leader, in the other parts of your life, as well. So to have access to those perspectives, just seems so valuable and enriching as you go through your career. So I'm curious for anyone listening to this, who thinks, oh, I might want to get involved in my own Chamber of Commerce, what would you recommend? And where can people find more information about the Laredo Chamber of Commerce?

Cliffe Killam 37:22

Sure, yeah. If you can just go to the laredochamber.com and you can look, you know, look us up there. And then you can also always Google the US Chamber of Commerce, and most most communities, most cities have a Chamber of Commerce. And yeah, I definitely recommend looking into that. There's a lot of great programs there to help champion you know, the business and and also get involved in, you know, different policy issues that affect businesses. And it's a, it's a great, it's a great American institution, and nonprofit. So yeah, definitely encourage everyone to, to look into it and get involved.

Erica D'Eramo 38:11

Awesome, thanks, Cliffe. For our part, we appreciate our listeners tuning into this and they can find any information that they're looking for regarding Two Piers on our website as usual, which is twopiersconsulting.com. And then they can follow us and our stories and future podcasts on any of our social media platforms. So Facebook, LinkedIn, Twitter, Instagram, we're on on all of them. And yeah, thanks for spending some time with us today. Cliffe, we really appreciate it.

Cliffe Killam 38:46

Thanks so much, Erica. Enjoyed the conversation.

Macroeconomics & COVID-19

Photo courtesy of Unsplash.

Transcript below:

Erica D'Eramo 0:04

Hello, and welcome to the Two Piers Podcast, Season Two. I'm your host, Erica D'Eramo, and today I'll be joined by special guest Sandy Leeds. We'll be discussing some of the macroeconomic impacts of the COVID-19 pandemic, particularly on both women and communities of color. And we'll also explore some ways for us to increase our understanding of the markets.

Sandy is a faculty member in the finance department at the University of Texas at Austin. He teaches an acclaimed Macro Markets class, which is pretty renowned amongst the business students. While Sandy is a proud Crimson Tide fan, we do happen to share a Longhorn connection. Prior to joining the faculty at UT, Sandy managed money for a private money management firm. He was one of four portfolio managers responsible for approximately $1.6 billion of assets and he holds the Chartered Financial Analyst designation. But that's not all. In addition to money management experience, Sandy also has significant legal experience. He's a member of the Texas State Bar and has tried over 100 cases. He also participated in the regulation of the securities industry and is a published co-author of Investment Analysis and Portfolio Management.

One of the reasons that I wanted to have Sandy on the podcast is because of his efforts to make the understanding of markets and their movements accessible to people who may not have the opportunity to pursue an MBA. Sandy puts out a free weekly market update that analyzes and distills movements and happenings in the markets; you can sign up for that newsletter at sandyleeds.com. He also hosts a Macro Markets course that, while not free, has open enrollment, so no university affiliation is required. So Sandy, welcome to the podcast. Thanks for joining us.

Sandy Leeds 1:59

Thanks, Erica. Thanks for inviting me. I'm excited to be here.

Erica D'Eramo 2:02

So we have been seeing over the past year, some of these major impacts of COVID-19, on the markets, on the economy, and really some profound and unfortunate impacts on women and communities of color when it comes to employment and engagement in the workforce. So with the Two Piers mission, that is to create diverse and reflective workforces by unlocking, cultivating and supporting talent. These impacts are, you know, something that we wanted to explore a bit more, and we thought that you would have a great perspective on it.

Sandy Leeds 2:42

Well, it's great. I mean, these are, these are really important issues to me. So I love what you're doing.

Erica D'Eramo 2:48

Thanks. So I mean, one of the things we've seen in the news headlines a lot lately is around the metrics and statistics on women's employment numbers, and us kind of backsliding, something like 30 years with some of the the numbers that we're seeing of women in the workforce. So I was hoping that you might be able to kind of explore that with us and talk about what, what is what is the problem that we're seeing here?

Well, I think that the really big picture problem is that women have been more impacted by the pandemic than men. It's somewhat unusual, actually, that typically in a recession, men are impacted more, because you tend to see very cyclical things drop, you tend to see construction drop, which is dominated by men. You see, manufacturing slowdown, again, tends to be more heavily dominated by men, particularly in the past, but, but certainly, still a fair comment. But when you look at this, this pandemic, if you compare the jobs report that we got the first Friday of February, which tells us about our January employment, and you compare to one year earlier, the prior January, which was really pre pandemic, for the US and for the US labor market, women have lost about 5.2 million jobs since then, and men have lost about 4.4 million jobs. And so women have been impacted more. And the reasons for this are number one, obviously the service industry or the service sector, that women dominate the service sector and the service sector often requires close contact, and that's what's been shut down the most. And the other issue is that women bear a disproportionate amount of the responsibility for kids, for the home, for parents. And that's not to say that it should be that way, but rather that is what we're seeing. And so, you know, the result is when our schools are closed, it's, it's impacting women, even more. And, you know, one of the things that, that I always tell people is, you just look at, like the really basic idea of when you have people who are divorced, or people who never got married and have kids, the vast majority of the time, not all the time, but the vast majority of the time, what you see is that the kids end up with the mom. And, and then, you know, even when people are together, what you, you know, what you tend to see, and I asked my students this do long before the pandemic, I would say, how many of you would say your primary caregiver was your mother, rather than your father? And, you know, certainly the majority, and things of things have certainly changed over time, you know, I can look back to I was born in 1964. And, and I think back to, I lived in a very middle class, neighborhood, and, you know, up in New York, and Yonkers and, and it was all the dads that went to work, you know, I mean, I was out in the street playing, you're probably when I was 19. So when I was six years old, 1970 b, all the dads, and they'd all come home at five o'clock, and very few of the moms worked outside of the home. And so, but bottom line is that that's what we see. And so, you know, that's where the job losses have been. And, and, of course, you know, what we're worried about is just, you know, the, on a macro level, we worry that we're losing all this human capital, you know, we're losing the output of all of all these people, men and women, but you know, especially women, who's what we're talking about here, and productivity, and, you know, the problem that once you become long term unemployed, you sort of lose your connections to the workforce, you end up going back, it's harder to get a job, it's, it's harder to get fair pay, um, you know, we increase financial security, and you know, it, one of the things that that we have to worry about is that when these things happen, you sort of then re-victimize the victim. And what happens is that, then people consciously or subconsciously start to say, "Oh, well, you know, women have other responsibilities. And so they're going to be less reliable, when we need when we need people to work." Right? And that's, you know, that's, that just perpetuates problems like that. So, so, you know, we have a lot of problems. And as you said, you know, bringing it back 30 years, I think a lot of those views were going away, or hopefully, they're improving slowly, I think, you know, the younger generation, so much different than, than the older generation, but I think, you know, those, those the problems, and I think this really has furthered them or brought us back to them.

So we've kind of taken the mommy track and exacerbated it.

Sandy Leeds 8:09

Yeah, I think. Absolutely. And I mean, you I think one of the things that's, that's interesting is, when you look at wage inequality, you know, gender inequality with wages, um, you know, it's interesting to see, like, what the research shows about that, you know, it shows that, you know, obviously, the, the disruption in career when you take, you know, a year or two years off, or, you know, many women take five years off until you know, until the kids ready to go to school, that type of thing. That's certainly one issue. But, you know, other issues that we see are that, employers, whether or not a woman is intending to have kids start to assume that they will. Right? And, and that's, you know, the, you know, probably the most problematic, but, you know, it's sort of interesting, though, excuse me, because what you see is, um, in that research, a lot of other things that, you know, are sort of gender based, and that is that, like, particularly married women tend to not accept a job that requires moving. And, but then they move because the husband accepts a job somewhere else. And then what you have is someone who is trying to get a job without a job, right? When, when you move because of your spouse, and that's really difficult, and it's really difficult to get the correct match as far as skill set and economics and to get what you were making before. And you know, those are those are all you know, really big problems. And they, you know, if you think about it now, for a lot of people, men and women, but particularly women, you're going to have sort of being long term unemployed and looking for a job without a job. And and again, we know that's all problematic. That's all been part of the wage inequality that we've seen in the past.

Erica D'Eramo 10:10

Yeah, I think, I guess it was Einstein that said, there's no force greater than compounding interest. And I always think about that when I think about five years out of the workforce and missing out on those raises for five years, and then you extrapolate that across an entire career. And what is that? What does that do to the income inequality and kind of the final tally number of what somebody makes? And so when it comes down to who is going to take a break to take care of the kids, and you're looking at the finances, I mean, historically, we're showing that that wage gap kind of comes into play and that decision making so the person who has the higher wages kind of stays in the workforce, and the person who has the lower wages, financially, it makes the best decision for them to do the primary caregiving. So it kind of exacerbates it. Yeah.

Sandy Leeds 10:56

Yeah, absolutely. That, it's, it's more than just your income, income compounding obviously, right. It's, it's just sort of that human capital in general, the relationships and you know, just everything else. All right, I think I think it's, it makes it really hard. But I grinning potential.

Erica D'Eramo 11:13

Yeah. So what do you think some solutions to this could be?

Sandy Leeds 11:18

Yeah, it's such, it's such, these are such hard issues. But, you know, I think there are a ton of things that that we think about, I mean, I think the first thing that jumps out at everyone, and you hear from everyone say, is childcare, we need better childcare. You know, that's right now, why so many people, men and women, but again, particularly women aren't able to work right now. That, you know, we've, we've got to make childcare cheaper, we've got to make it more accessible, we've got to make it more attractive for people to work in that industry, too, right. It's a, you know, notoriously low paying job. You know, we've got to, with childcare, I'd also say, it's such an opportunity to improve our Pre-K education, which is really lacking. And, you know, it's one of the differences in, in households and I, I remember, when I started studying a lot of these issues, if you had said to me, oh, "What's more important, going to a good, you know, kindergarten, or going to a good college?" I, my thought was, "Oh, you know, you want to go to an elite college." But, you know, all the research shows, it's early education that matters, it sets you on this path to for success. And, you know, some kids are read to, you know, all the time; they grow up in a household that, that values education, if they're not, this is an opportunity to, to get them reading and to, you know, to get them to see sort of the joy of books and things like that. So I think childcare is an obvious issue, we've got to make it more accessible, and more affordable. Um, you know, we've got to, we've got to figure out how to incentivize companies to, you know, to make it easier for women to stay in, in the workforce. We've got to change the culture of companies, you know, we, we have, one of the things that we see, again, and not a comment on whether this is right or wrong, but just the fact that it is, is that, you know, women are taking all this responsibility or bear all this responsibility for you know, sick parents, kids, whatever it is. And so the result is that in a lot of these industries, that are jobs that require face time, you know, when you think about law and banking, you you don't see as many women at senior levels. And so, you know, there has to be more flexibility, you know, we have to reduce the importance of that, that face time. You know, there are little cultural issues at work that um, you know, that we have to sort of accept these gender differences that... you know, and I think this is an ironic one, but but what I always think about is that, you know, when women make mistakes, they tend to apologize, you know, funny thing, and men don't. And the, you know, these are general observations and, and I think that what you find is that apologizing is seen as a sign of weakness, right, which is insane. I mean, you know, I certainly...

Erica D'Eramo 14:31

I know, (laughter)

Sandy Leeds 14:32

You know, I certainly hope I always apologize when I make a mistake. I you know, I certainly teach, you know, all my kids, you know, my my sons and my daughter to always apologize, you know, we need transparency and financial reports, we need to understand, um, you know, the numbers of, of, you know, gender equality and wages. Um, you know, maybe what we need are incentives, tax incentives for companies. You know, we inset production in the US, why would you not incent, equality? You know, I think customers have to care, right? I mean, it has to be something that, that we care about. And I think, I think in certain fields, clients do care, right? They, they want to, they would like to do at least see diversity, they would like to see that it's not all men, you know, we, we know, I was an asset management, and we know that men and women think differently, and, you know, you're going to understand some products better than I am, I'm going to understand some products better than you do, because I use them, or you use them, right, and you see the world differently. And, you know, we all know, I don't have the numbers, you know, at the forefront, but, you know, we all know, the amount of home purchases that are done by the woman in the house, like, you know, I, you know, I'm my wife, you know, takes care of, like buying so much of the stuff I you know, I'm involved in, in so little of it, in many ways. And so, it's so important to be thinking that way. We knew that asset management, but it's got to be, it's got to be valued. You know, we've got to figure out better ways of, of, you know, helping women to get to the top, even if their career is disrupted. And, you know, I think that, that, you know, one of the things, and we've seen this at, you know, my university is that, you know, we've got to do wage surveys and make sure that wages are fair, um, you know, even in, you know, sort of liberal universities, you will find that there is inequality and, you know, inequality certainly makes people leave the workforce, if, if I'm not being treated fairly, if I'm not being respected, I will leave, I think, you know, I think one of the, you know, most important things, though, like, for a really long term perspective, is, we've got to, we've got to make women and, and, really, what I should say, is girls aware of jobs that they can get, when they get older, and when they, you know, when they go to college, and or, you know, whether or not they go to college, and after college, it's, you know, one of the things that that we tried to do, I ran this MBA investment fund at Texas for about 13 years. And one of the big problems we had was, it was all men, it was all men, you know, we would get, we would get all these applications from men, we, you know, we sometimes, we got no applications from women, sometimes we'd get one or two. And, you know, part of it was that... so, so, a woman, I worked with, Laura Starks, who's unbelievable, but you know, just just incredible what she's done. But she and I started this, this little conference for all the MBA women, right when they arrived at school, and to show them that, look, this is a field that's dying, to have women in it, um, that it's not just investment banking, where you do have to work insane hours, which, you know, again, a lot of women had already decided, look, I want to have a family and a career and banking is not going to work. Asset Management, you're not a better stock picker by, you know, working till 11 o'clock at night. And so we tried to sort of show that and we bring in, you know, very successful women from the field. But what we realized, it was already too late, it was already too late, they had gotten here. And they had already decided, you know, I mean, it's hilarious to see that, it's like, you get here, and you see the guys going to finance and the women go into marketing. It's like, you gotta be kidding me. I mean, it's, it's like 40 years ago, you know, and so, so the point is, it's too late at that point. And so we've got to start much earlier, and just sort of convincing people that look, this is a career for you. And you know, you're gonna see I mean, you see these little changes, you know, there there were, you know, women referees in the in the Super Bowl, you know, there was a woman from Vanderbilt who, you know, kicked in a college football game, those things they really do matter, I think, but but I think just on a more practical matter, you just you got to see women money managers, clients want to see it, little girls need to see it. And I think, you know, that's sort of my long tirade, but that's, you know, that's, that's, I think, what you know, what will really change things.

Erica D'Eramo 19:33

Yeah, we say the same issues in engineering as well. By the time you get to university, your pipeline has already diminished so much, nevermind by the end of university, but you raised a couple of points that I, I think are really interesting, in the context of COVID. So the face time issue, I'm wondering, with us, being forced into remote working, how much we are, perhaps, challenging the concept that you have to be in the office meeting clients face to face for X number of hours per day in order to be successful in this role. Do you think there's any opportunity for change there? Perhaps like a small silver lining on the COVID experience?

Sandy Leeds 20:19

That's interesting. You know, one of the interesting things that I've seen, you've probably seen the statistics, too, is that people are working more, people are working more from home. And I don't know, if they're just reporting that they're working more, or if they're actually working more, but I found that interesting. But, you know, I think that I think that this whole remote working is is a double edged sword. I, you know, what I'm really afraid of is, you know, a lot of these places are saying, look, you can go work from anywhere, you know, there are lots of firms in San Francisco in particular, they're saying, go work for anywhere, we're gonna adjust your pay down, if you're not in San Francisco, but but you can go live at the beach, the mountains, whatever, whatever you want to do. That sounds great. I, my real fear is this, that you are now going to be sort of a cog in the wheel, that you are, you know, are we going to promote you to a high level? Or are you you know, Erica in the mountains that handles accounts receivable, and that's sort of what you're good for. And that scares me, for everyone who's who's working remote

Erica D'Eramo 21:22

Proximity bias? Yeah.

Sandy Leeds 21:24

Absolutely. I mean, I think that you know, who's gonna get it, who's gonna get promoted, I worry will be the people who are working in headquarters. So so that scares me. But I will tell you this. I think that the the real benefit, could be particularly for women. In that, I think, as we accept remote work, I think that fits in with the flexibility. And and I think that, that, the other thing that is really helpful is if you think about that research, that I was mentioning that one of the one of the big causes of wage inequality on a gender, from a gender perspective, is the fact that women often move because of their partner. And, and they are then looking for a job without having a job. And that's just brutal to your wages, especially if you if you're at a higher level, where it's really hard to get those wages. Well, if you can at least keep your job, then from there, you can search for a job with, with the fact that you are now still making good wages, you're in a completely different position. And so I think from that perspective, it's it's a real positive, I think, the flexibility that it may offer so that we don't lose people from from the labor force, and also the fact that it will help you negotiate on a much, much better basis, I think that those things are, are possibly going to be the silver lining from all this.

Erica D'Eramo 23:01

Yeah, I think addressing that wage gap is just, and the root causes of that wage gap are, are really key to the retention factor, because of the very decisions that families have to make, right. And it becomes a compounding issue of, you know, maybe the woman isn't making as much because of wage discrimination or not, I'm not advocating for herself enough or having to take, you know, a few years off to be a primary caregiver. And then when you move that that's how the decision is made about who is the leading spouse in the lagging spouse, and so it just compounds on itself. So yeah, really interesting thoughts.

Sandy Leeds 23:43

Absolutely. I would also say this. I mean, it seems to just from my reading of the research that you're right, that that that does drive that sort of, you know, who's the higher earning and who's low earning, and so who do we move for? But I think that the research also shows that it's more than that, that it can that sometimes the husband is the lower earning spouse, but that is whose job we move forward to. I mean, I mean, I, you know...

Erica D'Eramo 23:56

Hm, societal as well as

Sandy Leeds 24:10

I think they're all issues and yeah, no, but I do think that's changing. I do think

Erica D'Eramo 24:15

Yeah. Well, I, you mentioned a comment about what I interpret as inclusivity, right, of women apologizing and that being seen as weakness, just some of these ways that we are shaped by society that represent in the workforce. And to me, I think, we hear a lot of talk about diversity and the importance of diversity. And we know better decisions are made by teams that have diverse perspectives, which you mentioned, that the idea of inclusivity to me is so important if we're going to bring these people into the workforce, but then punish them for behaving in the way that they've been socialized their entire lives. So if we truly want diverse thinking, it has to be more than just statistics, right? It has to be do we welcome people who apologize? And do we welcome, you know, humility or team building or some of these things that we typically associate with female behaviors? are we celebrating that? Or are we? Are we just really celebrating typically male behaviors and wanting our, our statistics to look a little different?

Sandy Leeds 24:22

Right, I think you're absolutely right. And I and and i think that what we forget is that clients customers often want the traits that we do tend to see more in women than men, that a willingness to say, you know, I don't know everything I don't, I don't understand everything, the willingness to apologize for mistakes, empathy. You know, I was reading an article recently about a private wealth management firm that caters to women. And they basically were saying, you know, what, what women clients want is empathy. They want someone who understands what their situation is, and, and you know, that the women investors were more likely to want their money to be doing something that was good, it wasn't just about having the most money, and, you know, and, and so, you know, I think I think those are all important.

Erica D'Eramo 26:22

That's fascinating. I, one of my tests, when I, when I do approach a company, and they talk to me about their parental leave, and how it's an example of them helping women particularly, I always ask, to what extent the men in the company are taking that parental leave as well, if it's available to them. And it's fascinating to me, because men are not taking parental leave, even when it's available, even when it's paid and free. So that's, that tells me very clearly that there is a there is a price or there is a stigma around the leave itself. And so I always wonder, you know, it might be paid parental leave, but what is the non-monetary price that's being paid? Because even when we neutralize the monetary aspect, men who can take leave are not necessarily taking it?

Sandy Leeds 27:14

Absolutely. I mean, you know, it's, I think that in the older generation, right, and I put myself in, in there, and I'm not saying I think like this, but I think in the older generation that is seen, that's seen as soft, right? It's that that's not what you do to succeed. And I think that I, you know, I think I think that is changing over time. And you know, I think I actually am more encouraged about gender inequality than maybe other issues. But I that I think, I think it's moving in the right direction. But I think that, um, I think it is really tough to get guys to do that. And it's, and especially in some industries, rather than, than others, and, you know, I agree with you.

Erica D'Eramo 28:05

Yeah, so this is a message to all the men out there who have parental leave coming up, please take it because it helps reduce stigma for the women who really do want to take for parental leave as well. So it's better for everyone. And those are prime prime weeks and months with the new addition to your family.

Sandy Leeds 28:22

Erica, I'll make a quick parenting comment about that. And that is that we have, we have three kids, and you know, the the, the third one was adopted. And so basically, that meant that she was bottle fed. And she was really the only one that I got up with on a regular basis. I got up every night with her. And what a huge difference I think it made. I mean, it was great for me, but I just think it's great for the relationship. And it's one of the things I tell all my you know, students as far as my my guy, the male students is that it makes a huge difference to miss that, miss out on that sleep. It really pays off. So anyway, there's my little commercial, my parenting commercial. Thank you.

Erica D'Eramo 29:09

So beyond just some of the impacts to women working in the workforce, we've also seen impacts as far as you know, other underserved communities, communities of color, etc. They've been particularly hard hit by COVID from an economic perspective, from a health perspective aspect. What are your thoughts on that topic?

Sandy Leeds 29:33

Um, you're absolutely right. I mean, I think that, you know, we we've sort of all read about the problems of that, and you say people of color, that's such a broad category, really. But when we particularly when we think about people, you know, who, if you just think of lower income, living in crowded housing and work on the front lines and not having access to health care. You know, not having assets that are benefiting as home prices are increasing and stock prices are going up. And, you know, we're seeing problems with less access to technology, so kids aren't attending school, from lower income households. You know, all those things are, are huge. And, you know, I think that I think that it's not just the pandemic, I mean, these these things have been, you know, these been issues for forever. And so, you know, I think those are the things that we're, you know, we're trying to figure out of how do we do better? And, you know, I think that a lot of these are the same sort of solutions, that, you know, we need better Pre-K, you know, for schools, we need, we need to figure out how to stop kids from from dropping out. We, you know, I think one of the biggest things is, in most parts of this country, we really do fund schools with local taxes. So if you're in a poor area, there's going to be poor funding. And, you know, we're one of just a handful of developed nations that spend less educating our low income, lower income kids than our higher income kids. That's crazy, like, how do you expect to have mobility if that's if that's what we do? Yeah, we need to make it safe to go to school. And in a lot of lower income neighborhoods, that's a dangerous walk. And, you know, we've got to, we've got to figure that out, we got to figure out minimum wage. Right. I mean, you know, that's a big issue. Right now, the Congressional Budget Office just put out a report this week about that. And, you know, it's interesting, because we know that if you make workers more expensive, you will have a loss of some jobs, right, that ultimately, you'll find that people, places will find a way to automate and that kind of thing. But the reality is, like, if you look at it, and that's what you've sort of seen that the CBO report basically says, you know, the idea of raising minimum wage is dead, because, you know, we could lose a million jobs. You know, if you look at it, it also says that, you know, we'll move like, you know, 27, will, like 10 million people out of poverty and 17 million people are likely to be better off because they were making a little bit more than minimum wage, and it's going to be raised up. And it's like, everything has a trade off, you know, everything has a trade off. And, you know, one of the things, I'll just also say that, what we've seen is that a large percentage of the country has already raised the minimum wage, right? The federal minimum wage is $7.25. But many states and cities have said, "No, you've got to pay more." We haven't seen, we haven't seen that loss of employment. And so, you know, we've got it, we've got to figure that one out. And it is it's a difficult issue, because you have really high cost standard of living in you know, San Francisco, you've got low cost of living in Mississippi, and can you you know, can you raise it to $15. And maybe it needs to be adjusted another way. But, you know, I think that's a big issue. I think, I think you you've got to have people in power, who want to help force change, I think of David Swensen is a very famous money manager, he manages Yale's endowment, and he's sort of seen as the, the guru in that field. And, you know, basically, he, you know, sometime in the last few months, he basically said, "Look, when we farm out money to money managers, we're going to be looking for diversity, you know, we we need to promote this." You know, we need role models, just like, like we talked about with the the gender issues, and, you know, you've sort of talked about engineering, but, you know, we need to do a better job of early explaining careers, you know, I think we need to get people of color near the money, right, that that to help, you know, wealth accumulation. I saw some statistics about financial planners, the CFP designation for financial planners, which I don't have, but, but just sort of looking at it. And it's like, I saw that 23% of financial planners are women, of course, you know, women make up just over 50% of our population. Black CFPs, 1.7%, you know, Black Americans...

Erica D'Eramo 34:18

That's striking.

Sandy Leeds 34:19

Yeah, black Americans, 13%, right, of our population, Hispanic CFPs, two and a half percent. That's 18% of our population, right? I mean, you've got to, you know, you, that that's a huge thing. You got to promote this wealth accumulation. And you've got to be near people who understand it, and know how to do it. And so that's really important. You've got to promote, not just like hiring, but training and mentoring and retaining and how many people are getting to senior levels. You know, we again, we need more transparency on all these things, and we need to make sure that, one of the things I I think that has certainly improved is we're getting a lot of lower income kids a lot of kids of color into colleges, but then from there, are they getting the same opportunities? You know, just I just look in the business school, when when you grew up with a dad, who was a banker, maybe a mom, but more likely a dad, who was a banker, or you know, whatever, you know how to dress, right? You know how to act in these interviews. Those are the things that if you didn't come from that, how would you know? I mean, I can literally remember I mean, this is this sounds so funny. This is, you know, this sounds like Saturday Night Fever or something but, but which that's probably, you know, a reference way before your time, Erica, but but the bottom line is, like, I remember when I was a first year law student, and I was interviewing, and after my interview, I was in the same city as my older sister who's five years older, she was like a second mother to me. And we're sitting at dinner, and she looked across to me, I was in a suit. And she said, "Alright, you have got to wear an undershirt underneath your shirt." And I was like, Yeah, I didn't, know, it's like, you know, she was lucky, I didn't have like, my collar open with my gold chains. But the bottom line is, that that's what you need. Right? And, and, you know, like, I was fortunate, because I had her five years ahead. And, you know, she was the one who told me "Look, in college, you've got to take classes from these three teachers, because they're nationally known, you've got to excel in those classes, you know, get to know them, and have them write your letters of recommendation, because that's the only way you're going to get into a top law school." Right? Who knew? I would have never known that, right. I didn't want to know any teachers. You know, I just I was just getting through. And so, you know, we need that kind of mentoring. Especially because a lot of us, you know, didn't have it unless, unless we were lucky enough to have, you know, a sibling that went ahead of us. And, you know, and I think something like you said earlier, at the end of the day, people have to appreciate that, that diversity results in more creative solutions, that it attracts clients. You know, just just from a business perspective, you have to remember that people of color are going to be the majority by 2045. And, you know, I think it's just, it's a matter of, I think most people, it's, it's not a matter of wanting to discriminate, or anything like that, I think it's a matter that most of us just tend to like people who are just like us, you know, that they look like us, they act like us, they have the same backgrounds, like, you know, you meet someone, it's like, oh, this is my long lost brother. And you know, and that's a tough one that, you know, and I think, you know, you see places like the NFL trying to say no, you know, you've got to interview others, you know, people who don't look like your brother. And yeah, you know, it's tough. But I think that when you have these natural tendencies to do that, and I think we all do that.

Erica D'Eramo 38:08

Yeah, I mean, there are many books written on heuristics and how biases work, and they're there in order to help us survive as a species. And also, they don't necessarily drive the best decisions for a business. So that's why we need to put more systemic processes in place so that we're not just relying upon our own biases for who gets the promotion or who gets the informal mentoring. You're, because you're right, there are so many unspoken rules. And this is across anyone who's not been in the tent, you know, in the inside club. They don't necessarily know those unspoken rules, they don't necessarily know to wear the undershirt or who to talk to or which, which, you know, club they should join, to hobnob. So. Yeah. How are we going to address that in a more systemic, repeatable way, that's not reliant on our human brains, which are, you know, wired for survival, but not necessarily, for the best overall outcome.

Sandy Leeds 39:13

I tell you another story with that. And the point of it is, I think sometimes you have to say uncomfortable things. Like when I was at a, I was at a big law firm. And when we were recruiting, what we would do is we would take a recruit to dinner, and then the next day, we would interview them, and basically the young associate, which was me, and, you know, I was one of a billion of them, but but the young associate would go pick up the recruit and take them to dinner and we'd meet a partner, often a partner and their spouse there. And I, we had this recruit of a woman and the partner said to her at dinner, "Why did you go to this other school rather than the University of Texas?" We were Dallas firm. And she said, "You know, I didn't get into Texas." And, you know, she didn't realize it, but at that point the interview was done. She wasn't getting a job. And, you know, the correct answer was, you know, "This school had this program, you know, program x, and that really attracted me. And I thought I was gonna get this really unique experience," and that kind of thing. And, you know, when I drove her back to her hotel, I told her, I said, you know, I said, "Look," I said, "Please don't repeat this," because the reality was, I would have been in a lot of trouble for telling her this, I said, "You're not going to get a job, you know, the odds are against you, because no one wants to hear that you didn't get into Texas." And I said, "You know, you're gonna, you're gonna have so many opportunities at these big firms," because he or she was on Law Review and that kind of thing. And I said, you know, here's, here's how you need to answer this. And, and, you know, I really questioned the whole drive, whether I should say this to her or not, and I did. And it was funny, because she wrote me a long, long letter, you know, handwritten letter, several months later, and, and basically, we just like, "Thank you so much, I would have repeated that, you know, so many times," and she told me all the different offers she got? And, you know, I think so sometimes you have to say those uncomfortable things to help people. And you know, it's one things I was always happy that I did. But I think that's, you know, that I was sort of doing what my sister said to me, although my sister had no trouble saying anything uncomfortable.

Erica D'Eramo 41:37

Yeah, I think this is one of the things that I worry the most about with the chilling effect of some of the, the narrative that we're hearing after the #MeToo movement. I mean, we're still in the #MeToo movement, but some of the commentary that I've heard about how men are just, like pulling back, and not engaging, rather than just engaging respectfully, it's, it's like, oh, I'm just gonna not take any risks. And it deprives people, women of women, particularly women of color, just anyone who needs that guidance, that kind of clue into what the what the silent messages are. I feel like they're being deprived of that whenever we sort of say like, "Oh, the safest thing is to just not go to dinner with that person or not have a beer with that person." They're missing out on kind of that, that little like, "Hey, this is how this needs to go. You wouldn't have known that unless I could be really candid with you." So, yeah, yeah. I mean, I think we'll, we'll have to find our way through it, I just hope that people are still willing to have the openness, the brave conversations and to be corrected, sometimes, you know, it's I mean, it, it can be uncomfortable, and sometimes we step on a line, and sometimes we get corrected, and, and we have to not, like run away with our tail between our legs and just come back and, and keep engaging and keep growing. So yeah, it's it's tough, but I'm, so I'm curious if there's any, any other thoughts you have on, you know, some of the some of the more systematic things that, from a macroeconomics point of view, we should be looking at, just with COVID now, in our hindsight, as we go forward?

Sandy Leeds 43:35

Well, I mean I think that from from a macro perspective, I think we need to figure out how we can avoid this happening again, you know, I think that, you know, from what I'm reading, the, the most important thing you can do is shut everything down right away. And, you know, in other words, and, you know, this sounds terrible, but it's, you've got to shut down for a few weeks right away, you've got to, you've got to actually close the borders, you've got to do everything, it just has to, you've got to get rid of the virus, because once it gets out, it's done. And, you know, there was nothing we could do after sort of the initial decisions. And so, you know, I think I think we've got to figure this this one out, because it certainly could, could happen. Again, I think that's, you know, I think that's a really big, big issue. You know, I think I think that this, you know, what everyone says about COVID is that it's accelerated so many of the trends, you know, the, the colleges that are in trouble are now in more trouble now. You know, we're so much more ready to do a meeting by Zoom rather than travel across the country. Um, you know, I think that, that it also may be accelerating inequality, income inequality, and maybe better said wealth inequality where, you know, those of us with houses and stock portfolios are doing great and as That's

Erica D'Eramo 45:00

Assets are going up.

Sandy Leeds 45:02

You know, I said several times in my class last semester that we would feel a lot different about this if stocks were still down 35% like they were in March. But, you know, the reality is that when it's not where um, you know, I don't really feel the pain, I don't feel if I in fact, I'm spending a lot less money right now. And, you know, I think that's an issue. I think one of the big macro issues that we're facing right now is, I think that we're doing all the stimulus spending, all these people have, the majority of our savings are much higher, and we've got $1.6 trillion more savings than we would have otherwise, because of all the government transfers. I personally think that, you know, we need to be doing a better job of giving money to the people who need it, rather than just in general sending out checks, you know, if you're making $100,000, and you're still working, I'm not sure why we should be sending checks, we need to be able to support the unemployed for longer periods of time. And, you know, I think it's easy when we have a crisis to spend money, but you got to remember that this is going to mean that we do less infrastructure spending in the future things that are going to, you know, make it easier for people who live in a low income neighborhood to have transportation to jobs, right. I mean, like things that really matter, you know, rather than just sending money to people who already have jobs, you know, I think I think part of what we're doing. And, you know, it's and this is a particularly easy time to do this, to say this, because the Republicans did it. And now the Democrats are doing it. Like, I think I think those are some of the really big macro issues that that we're seeing.

Erica D'Eramo 46:48

Yeah, yeah, the infrastructure comment is an interesting one, like, what are we doing for the long term to make, to make to dull the impact perhaps, of future crises like this, and having some of that underlying infrastructure is probably critical. So I am curious, for on an individual level, what your advice would be on how, you know, we can maybe break down some of these barriers around the perceived boys club of investment and talking about the markets and talking about our stocks, because I still find it somewhat intimidating to be honest, even after an MBA and after working in mergers and acquisitions. I, it's not a conversation I readily will jump into for fear of kind of not saying the right thing or being seen as, you know, investment illiterate. And yet, if you asked me to talk about a compressor, I could talk for days. Yeah, so what can we do for individuals like me that want increased awareness vocabulary?

Sandy Leeds 48:04

Well, first, let me say that if you find someone who wants to talk about a compressor for several days, let let me know, so I can stay away. The, the, and the reality is, like, I don't even know what a compressor is. But the you know, I think that I tell you, this is gonna sound funny, but I think the best thing someone could do is, they could every so often watch CNBC, and when they watch CNBC, they should have a notebook. And they should write down what all the experts say. And then look at that notebook a month later, and you'll see that just as often as being right, they're wrong, that, you know, it's, it's like when you hear an expert tell you who's gonna win a game, you know, a football game or a basketball game, that kind of thing. You know, I trust that they know a lot more than I do, that they played the game and that kind of thing. They're, they're wrong just as often as they're right. And so, you know, I think that's the first thing to do to get confidence is to realize that none of us know what's going on. You know, it, no one would have told you on March 23rd, that we were going to have this huge rally, right and stocks and that's, that's when the market bottomed or how the financial crisis was gonna end or anything like that. So I think the first thing to realize is that the biggest difference is that some people can really speak with confidence and others are humble enough to realize that they don't know. And, you know, I think from there, that what you have to do is find something that you can read that doesn't take you know, 100 hours a week, and that you can just sort of keep building and I will tell you that this that like students would always say to me, what should "What should I be reading?" And one summer, you know, when I had a couple days, I took a couple days to do nothing but asked that question, like what should I tell the students to read because I grew up reading the Wall Street Journal. You know, it's just sort of what I was used to. But there's so much now there's so much online. And, you know, I think that number one you got, you got to find what you like. But I will say I'm a huge fan of Barron's, Barron's comes out once a week it comes out Saturday morning, it's it's dated Monday, um, it actually online comes out at about 10 o'clock, you know, I guess 10 o'clock, Eastern Time, nine o'clock Central roughly, I can sort of see the articles. And the reason I think that's, that's a great source is that the Wall Street Journal and Financial Times, all those places, they tell you what the news was, like what happened. Barron's tells you how the markets reacted to the news. And I think that's what we all want to learn. I think one of the other you know, one of the other best piece of advice that I give students who want to learn this stuff is: it's great to read read read, but a great thing to do is instead of reading so many articles, and not retaining that much, is outline a few articles. And when you do that, you sort of see how ideas fit together. And that's, that's sort of that really careful reading that helps you learn. And, you know, you're not going to know everything all at once. But it's just that, that inquiry that that drives you to, to a higher level. And you know, that that'd be my best advice. But I think also, um, you know, just to realize that most, no one knows what's going to happen, if any of us knew whatt was gonna happen, if any of us knew what was gonna happen to Bitcoin or Tesla, you know, or GameStop at one point, I mean, you know, we'd all be fabulously wealthy, and but every so often, some people get lucky, but it's hard to repeat. And so you sort of have to realize that they're, you know, they're just some basic concepts we have to know about diversification and investing. And, and, you know, the most important thing is to participate. And I tell you, one last thing it was study, I saw that, that basically, they asked people how knowledgeable they were about finance. And what you found was that a lot of people assess themselves as very knowledgeable. And you know that tends to be you know, that confidence tends to be a male trait. And what happens though, is that the people who are super confident, they invest, and I would argue that, even if they do dumb things, and they underperform the market by a significant amount, they're still usually earning a positive rate of return.

Erica D'Eramo 53:00

And this is confirmation bias.

Sandy Leeds 53:03

People who don't, don't invest, because they think they know nothing, they get zero. And so, you know, I think that you really have to think about the importance of that confidence and getting and getting into the game. Because there are simple things you can do with just to putting your money in index funds, having a really long term perspective. You know, I like even at my age, where my might term isn't really as long, and I'm risk averse, when I do is I think of my money and you know our money in our family as our kids money. And they have a really long time horizon. And so that lets me have that perspective that you don't really need much more than that.

Erica D'Eramo 53:46

Yeah, that's, that, and those are, that's accessible. I think a lot of people perceive that it takes wealth to learn about wealth, it takes kind of the rich dad or the, like I said, the, you know, Executive MBA experience or whatever. And, and actually, there are publications and there are ways that we can, there's TV, there's CNBC, and there are ways that we can just increase our own vocabulary, understanding and literacy around investments in the in the markets. So yeah, thank you so much for your thoughts on that. Are there are there any other kind of closing thoughts that you had or recommendations?

Sandy Leeds 54:31

I don't know that we have anything else I think, you know, these are these are such interesting issues. I you know, they're issues that I read about all the time and you know, want to learn more about and so so I appreciate you talking with me about these.

Erica D'Eramo 54:45

Well, one resource that you have not recommended but I will recommend is signing up for your kind of weekly markets review that is very informative, and just really helps me distill down the key things that I should be understanding from what's happening in, you know, in the week. So again that you can sign up for at sandyleeds.com, and, and any other kind of events or courses that you're hosting, I think you put that up there as well and inform folks, so it's a good resource.

Sandy Leeds 55:20

I do. Well thank you very much.

Erica D'Eramo 55:22

Yeah, thank you, Sandy. We appreciate it. And for Two Piers, you can find our information on any of the social media platforms. So we're on Facebook, we're on Twitter, Instagram, and LinkedIn and you can always find us at our website, which is twopiersconsulting.com.

Welcome to Season Two!

Transcript:

Erica D'Eramo 0:07

Hello, and welcome to the Two Piers podcast and our first episode of Season Two. I'm your host, Erica D'Eramo, and today's episode will be a short one. When we last spoke, it was spring of 2020, at the end of April, actually, and little did we know what the rest of 2020 had in store for us.

Our final episode of season one discussed stress in times of confinement, and for most of us 2020 still had plenty of challenges, isolation and turbulence left to it. The Summer of 2020 saw nationwide, in fact, international demonstrations, protesting the deaths of unarmed Black citizens at the hands of law enforcement and others. We learned the names of some of those lost such as George Floyd, Breonna Taylor, and Ahmaud Arbery, joining those that have already entered our societal awareness like Eric Garner, Michael Brown, Tamir Rice, Philando Castile, Trayvon Martin, Sandra Bland, and countless others. We saw awareness increasing about institutional racism and the American carceral system. We saw lots of companies declare that Black Lives Matter and commit to doing more. Less than a year later, after a summer of societal upheaval and promises of change, it's not entirely clear how much the system has actually improved. 2020 also saw the passing of Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg, one of our icons, and a presidential election that felt like it lasted for months.

So what have we been doing in our corner of the world? And what are we up to now? 2020 was a year of change and growth for us as we redoubled our commitment to our mission of creating diverse and reflective workforces, based on equity and inclusion. While we're hopeful about the promises that many companies have made committing to lasting change, we're looking forward to seeing some of the follow through on their words, and we're here to help make it happen. While we dearly miss in-person events, such as conferences and workshops, we've actually enjoyed the flexibility that we've gained by transitioning many of our offerings to virtual platforms. Events that had previously been scheduled for Houston, and in-person events, such as the Women Offshore annual conference, or a recent corporate workshop that we held on Self Advocacy, were instead opened up to a global audience with attendees from all over the world who brought their own unique experiences and perspectives. And some of it has been a learning curve for sure, I can safely say that I can now facilitate several hours' worth of workshops via Zoom without putting anyone to sleep, but it has been a process.

So what do we have in store for you in Season Two? Well, we've got some great guests joining us to explore a wide range of topics such as the impacts of COVID-19 on underserved communities, or one chairman's story of diversity on the board. We even have an episode about blockchain for those of us that want to learn a little bit more. We're looking forward to sharing this next season with you. And as always, we invite you to reach out via our website at twopiersconsulting.com or via any of our social media channels like Facebook, Twitter, LinkedIn, or Instagram. Thank you for joining us, and we'll see you over at Episode Two.

Two Piers Talks International Women's Day

Photo courtesy of Unsplash.

Hello and welcome to the Two Piers Podcast, season one, episode three. I’m your host, Erica D’Eramo. Today we will be discussing International Women’s Day. We’ll touch on the history and purpose behind this celebration, as well as this year’s theme and the underpinning six missions. We’ll also explain how you can personally get involved.

International Women’s Day occurs on March 8th each year. This year it’s on a weekend, which means you’ll probably be hearing about it in various forms throughout this preceding business week whether on LinkedIn or Social Media, or through events at your company or community. 

You may be wondering about the story behind International Women’s Day, and perhaps you think it’s a recent phenomenon. In reality, IWD has a long history that dates back more than a century. Only in recent years have we started to see more recognition in the US, due in large part to our more globally connected society and the impact of corporate events and social media. 

My first experience with International Women’s Day was while I was living in Azerbaijan and working in the Republic of Georgia, both of which were formerly part of the Soviet Union. IWD was an important Soviet holiday and it remained important in the post-soviet era. My experience in the early 2000’s in Baku and Tbilisi was that IWD was predominantly focused on displays of respect and gratitude toward women. I did find this a bit ironic, as the women were often responsible for any cooking or cleaning required for an IWD celebration, at least at the sites where I was working, but it was a fun day with lots of flowers and chocolates and odes to women’s greatness. I also experienced International Women’s Day while I was working in Angola. It was similarly celebrated with flowers and chocolate, and displays of respect toward women. The similarities made sense to me, as Angola has had a historical relationship with the Soviet Union and now modern day Russia. I found IWD to be similar in some ways to Valentine’s Day, but without the romantic element. Instead, it was a display of affection, support, and sisterhood for the women in those societies.

As mentioned previously, International Women’s Day has a long history, dating back more than a century. The early 1900s saw organizing and activism by women fighting for better working conditions and voting rights which laid the groundwork for IWD. In 1908, there was a protest of 15,000 women in NYC. The following year, the Socialist Party of America declared February 28th National Women’s Day. Then, in 1910, at the second International Conference of Working Women in Copenhagen, a woman named Clara Zetkin proposed what we now recognize as International Women’s Day. This proposal was unanimously approved and IWD was born. 1911 saw International Women’s Day honored in Austria, Denmark, Germany and Switzerland with more than a million people attending rallies. By 1913, it was being celebrated in Russia. The following year, in 1914, the official date was changed to March 8th, (on the Gregorian calendar) and it has remained as that date even since. 1914 International Women’s Day celebrations saw rallies across Europe, including in the UK, where Sylvia Pankhurst was arrested in London while on her way to speak to a crowd at Tragalgar Square about women’s suffrage. Sylvia was the daughter of Emmeline Pankhurst, who features in a great Drunk History episode, by the way.

Another interesting fact is that the Russian revolution was kicked off in 1917 with protests associated with International Women’s Day. Women began protesting on March 8th for bread and peace, and less than a week later, the Czar had abdicated. IWD would maintain a high prominence throughout the Soviet era.

By 1975, the UN had begun recognizing International Women’s Day. The website was created in 2001, and the online presence and corporate sponsorship and involvement has grown over the years with the expansion of social media and ESG focus. 

So what is the purpose of this day? Honestly, the purpose varies depending on the country and context. In some areas, the day is seen as an opportunity to celebrate women and demonstrate respect. In other areas, it’s seen as a day for protest and galvanizing action. The global campaign is directed primarily at raising awareness regarding the issues facing women, and increasing access to resources.

Sometimes I get asked whether International Women’s Day is inherently sexist. Well, we at Two Piers certainly don’t think so. Firstly, we believe the entire world benefits from gender parity and that enabling women to access their potential will reap benefits for all humans. Secondly, we also recognize International Men’s Day on November 19th, which raises awareness about the issues facing men and works to dismantle biases and myths that impact men. Forcing people into boxes is harmful and inefficient for society, regardless of gender. 

Each year, a primary theme is set and this year’s overarching theme is “Each for Equal.” According to the website: “The IWD 2020 campaign theme is drawn from a notion of 'Collective Individualism.' We are all parts of a whole. Our individual actions, conversations, behaviors and mindsets can have an impact on our larger society. Collectively, we can make change happen. Collectively, we can each help to create a gender equal world.”

Along with the theme, there are also six missions that are identified, in which “celebrating women's achievements and increasing visibility, while calling out inequality, is key.” We’ll touch on each of the six missions here. 

The first mission is Women in Tech: To celebrate digital advancement and champion the women forging innovation through technology. The site discusses the need for more women in tech, and has some great videos and articles outlining exciting technologies that are shaping the world for the better. This includes food waste reduction, interface design for better inclusivity, and “Smart Dust” a quantum computing technology to tackle drug diversion and abuse. There’s also a section that explores the implications of gender bias in AI. Frida Polli, CEO of Pymetrics has a thought provoking challenge “Can you imagine if all the toddlers in the world were raised by 20-year-old men? That’s what our A.I. looks like today. It’s being built by a very homogenous group." If we think about the implications across all the sectors utilizing AI, it’s pretty astounding.

The second mission is Women and Sport: To celebrate women athletes and applaud when equality is achieved in pay, sponsorship and visibility. We at Two Piers are big supporters of the US Women’s National Team in soccer (or football as the rest of the world calls it). We recommend Googling the USWNT’s lawsuit for pay equality. There have been some great articles over the past few weeks, including one from SB Nation explaining the current arguments behind the suit, and another from ESPN detailing the support from the US Men’s National Team union.

The third mission is Women at Work: To champion women of all backgrounds who dare to innovate, lead, and uplift others towards a more equal and inclusive workplace. The Global Gender Gap Report for 2020 is available from the World Economic Forum. There are lots of great infographics and a whole bunch of detailed analysis. There’s also a very disappointing extrapolation: at current rates, we are still an astounding 99.5 years away from gender parity. We need to do more.

The fourth mission is Women Entrepreneurs: To support women to earn and learn on their own terms and in their own way. This one hits close to home, as Two Piers is the product of female entrepreneurialism. One article discusses the shift from freelancer mindset to founder mindset: Seth Godin of “The Inner Entrepreneur” defines the difference between being a freelancer and an entrepreneur. He explains that "Freelancers get paid for their work. If you're a freelance copywriter, you get paid when you work. Entrepreneurs use other people's money to build a business bigger than themselves so that they can get paid when they sleep.” Some of the benefits for women as entrepreneurs are economic and creative independence in which women can take control of their own work. Other benefits include finding balance, whether work-life balance or balance between interests, and it allows you to channel your motivations and passion. 

The fifth mission is Women’s Health: To assist women to be in a position of power for making informed decisions about their health. We know from extensive studies that gender bias exists in medicine, whether in the exam room and doctor’s perception of women’s pain, or in research studies that exclude women. One area of medicine that gets explored on the IWD site is heart disease. The British Heart Foundation's briefing, 'Bias and Biology', revealed these four findings:

• women are less likely to recognize symptoms of a heart attack than men

• a woman is 50% more likely than a man to receive the wrong diagnosis

• women are less likely than men to receive life saving treatments

• women are less likely to be given medicine to stop a second heart attack

You can be aware of the following five signs of a heart attack in women:

• chest pain or discomfort that happens suddenly and persists, like pressure, tightness or squeezing

• pain can then spread to the left or right arm or to the neck, jaw, back or stomach 

• sickness, sweating, light-headedness or shortness of breath

• sudden anxiety similar to that of a panic attack

• excessive coughing or wheezing

We encourage you to be on the lookout for these signs.

The sixth and final mission is Women Creatives: To increase the visibility of women creatives and promote their work for commercial projects. The International Women’s Day site includes highlights of female artists and the IWD 2020 Typography Contest. If you’re a female creative, we highly recommend you check it out.

So you might be wondering how you, personally, can engage or get involved. Firstly, check out the website at www.internationalwomensday.com You can learn more about what’s going on this year, and can even find and attend an existing event. If you’re thinking of hosting your own event, the website has all sorts of resources to get you set up and on your way. You can also use the hashtags on social media to both follow and amplify. This year’s are #IWD2020 and #eachforequal.

So that wraps up our coverage for International Women’s Day this year. We’re looking forward to celebrating, and you can watch our social media channels for more information and resources on IWD 2020. In our next podcast, we’ll be sharing some exciting news about Two Piers and our plans for the next year. I’m so excited and want to shout it from the rooftops, but I’m going to save it for later this month. As always, be sure to follow us on social media. We’re on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram and LinkedIn, where we share lots of great content and resources. If you’re interested in our coaching, workshop or consulting offerings, you can find out more on our website at www.twopiersconsulting.com, and inquire directly.

Thanks for joining us for this third episode of our podcast, and we’ll meet you back here soon with our new announcement.