Macroeconomics & COVID-19

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Transcript below:

Erica D'Eramo 0:04

Hello, and welcome to the Two Piers Podcast, Season Two. I'm your host, Erica D'Eramo, and today I'll be joined by special guest Sandy Leeds. We'll be discussing some of the macroeconomic impacts of the COVID-19 pandemic, particularly on both women and communities of color. And we'll also explore some ways for us to increase our understanding of the markets.

Sandy is a faculty member in the finance department at the University of Texas at Austin. He teaches an acclaimed Macro Markets class, which is pretty renowned amongst the business students. While Sandy is a proud Crimson Tide fan, we do happen to share a Longhorn connection. Prior to joining the faculty at UT, Sandy managed money for a private money management firm. He was one of four portfolio managers responsible for approximately $1.6 billion of assets and he holds the Chartered Financial Analyst designation. But that's not all. In addition to money management experience, Sandy also has significant legal experience. He's a member of the Texas State Bar and has tried over 100 cases. He also participated in the regulation of the securities industry and is a published co-author of Investment Analysis and Portfolio Management.

One of the reasons that I wanted to have Sandy on the podcast is because of his efforts to make the understanding of markets and their movements accessible to people who may not have the opportunity to pursue an MBA. Sandy puts out a free weekly market update that analyzes and distills movements and happenings in the markets; you can sign up for that newsletter at sandyleeds.com. He also hosts a Macro Markets course that, while not free, has open enrollment, so no university affiliation is required. So Sandy, welcome to the podcast. Thanks for joining us.

Sandy Leeds 1:59

Thanks, Erica. Thanks for inviting me. I'm excited to be here.

Erica D'Eramo 2:02

So we have been seeing over the past year, some of these major impacts of COVID-19, on the markets, on the economy, and really some profound and unfortunate impacts on women and communities of color when it comes to employment and engagement in the workforce. So with the Two Piers mission, that is to create diverse and reflective workforces by unlocking, cultivating and supporting talent. These impacts are, you know, something that we wanted to explore a bit more, and we thought that you would have a great perspective on it.

Sandy Leeds 2:42

Well, it's great. I mean, these are, these are really important issues to me. So I love what you're doing.

Erica D'Eramo 2:48

Thanks. So I mean, one of the things we've seen in the news headlines a lot lately is around the metrics and statistics on women's employment numbers, and us kind of backsliding, something like 30 years with some of the the numbers that we're seeing of women in the workforce. So I was hoping that you might be able to kind of explore that with us and talk about what, what is what is the problem that we're seeing here?

Well, I think that the really big picture problem is that women have been more impacted by the pandemic than men. It's somewhat unusual, actually, that typically in a recession, men are impacted more, because you tend to see very cyclical things drop, you tend to see construction drop, which is dominated by men. You see, manufacturing slowdown, again, tends to be more heavily dominated by men, particularly in the past, but, but certainly, still a fair comment. But when you look at this, this pandemic, if you compare the jobs report that we got the first Friday of February, which tells us about our January employment, and you compare to one year earlier, the prior January, which was really pre pandemic, for the US and for the US labor market, women have lost about 5.2 million jobs since then, and men have lost about 4.4 million jobs. And so women have been impacted more. And the reasons for this are number one, obviously the service industry or the service sector, that women dominate the service sector and the service sector often requires close contact, and that's what's been shut down the most. And the other issue is that women bear a disproportionate amount of the responsibility for kids, for the home, for parents. And that's not to say that it should be that way, but rather that is what we're seeing. And so, you know, the result is when our schools are closed, it's, it's impacting women, even more. And, you know, one of the things that, that I always tell people is, you just look at, like the really basic idea of when you have people who are divorced, or people who never got married and have kids, the vast majority of the time, not all the time, but the vast majority of the time, what you see is that the kids end up with the mom. And, and then, you know, even when people are together, what you, you know, what you tend to see, and I asked my students this do long before the pandemic, I would say, how many of you would say your primary caregiver was your mother, rather than your father? And, you know, certainly the majority, and things of things have certainly changed over time, you know, I can look back to I was born in 1964. And, and I think back to, I lived in a very middle class, neighborhood, and, you know, up in New York, and Yonkers and, and it was all the dads that went to work, you know, I mean, I was out in the street playing, you're probably when I was 19. So when I was six years old, 1970 b, all the dads, and they'd all come home at five o'clock, and very few of the moms worked outside of the home. And so, but bottom line is that that's what we see. And so, you know, that's where the job losses have been. And, and, of course, you know, what we're worried about is just, you know, the, on a macro level, we worry that we're losing all this human capital, you know, we're losing the output of all of all these people, men and women, but you know, especially women, who's what we're talking about here, and productivity, and, you know, the problem that once you become long term unemployed, you sort of lose your connections to the workforce, you end up going back, it's harder to get a job, it's, it's harder to get fair pay, um, you know, we increase financial security, and you know, it, one of the things that that we have to worry about is that when these things happen, you sort of then re-victimize the victim. And what happens is that, then people consciously or subconsciously start to say, "Oh, well, you know, women have other responsibilities. And so they're going to be less reliable, when we need when we need people to work." Right? And that's, you know, that's, that just perpetuates problems like that. So, so, you know, we have a lot of problems. And as you said, you know, bringing it back 30 years, I think a lot of those views were going away, or hopefully, they're improving slowly, I think, you know, the younger generation, so much different than, than the older generation, but I think, you know, those, those the problems, and I think this really has furthered them or brought us back to them.

So we've kind of taken the mommy track and exacerbated it.

Sandy Leeds 8:09

Yeah, I think. Absolutely. And I mean, you I think one of the things that's, that's interesting is, when you look at wage inequality, you know, gender inequality with wages, um, you know, it's interesting to see, like, what the research shows about that, you know, it shows that, you know, obviously, the, the disruption in career when you take, you know, a year or two years off, or, you know, many women take five years off until you know, until the kids ready to go to school, that type of thing. That's certainly one issue. But, you know, other issues that we see are that, employers, whether or not a woman is intending to have kids start to assume that they will. Right? And, and that's, you know, the, you know, probably the most problematic, but, you know, it's sort of interesting, though, excuse me, because what you see is, um, in that research, a lot of other things that, you know, are sort of gender based, and that is that, like, particularly married women tend to not accept a job that requires moving. And, but then they move because the husband accepts a job somewhere else. And then what you have is someone who is trying to get a job without a job, right? When, when you move because of your spouse, and that's really difficult, and it's really difficult to get the correct match as far as skill set and economics and to get what you were making before. And you know, those are those are all you know, really big problems. And they, you know, if you think about it now, for a lot of people, men and women, but particularly women, you're going to have sort of being long term unemployed and looking for a job without a job. And and again, we know that's all problematic. That's all been part of the wage inequality that we've seen in the past.

Erica D'Eramo 10:10

Yeah, I think, I guess it was Einstein that said, there's no force greater than compounding interest. And I always think about that when I think about five years out of the workforce and missing out on those raises for five years, and then you extrapolate that across an entire career. And what is that? What does that do to the income inequality and kind of the final tally number of what somebody makes? And so when it comes down to who is going to take a break to take care of the kids, and you're looking at the finances, I mean, historically, we're showing that that wage gap kind of comes into play and that decision making so the person who has the higher wages kind of stays in the workforce, and the person who has the lower wages, financially, it makes the best decision for them to do the primary caregiving. So it kind of exacerbates it. Yeah.

Sandy Leeds 10:56

Yeah, absolutely. That, it's, it's more than just your income, income compounding obviously, right. It's, it's just sort of that human capital in general, the relationships and you know, just everything else. All right, I think I think it's, it makes it really hard. But I grinning potential.

Erica D'Eramo 11:13

Yeah. So what do you think some solutions to this could be?

Sandy Leeds 11:18

Yeah, it's such, it's such, these are such hard issues. But, you know, I think there are a ton of things that that we think about, I mean, I think the first thing that jumps out at everyone, and you hear from everyone say, is childcare, we need better childcare. You know, that's right now, why so many people, men and women, but again, particularly women aren't able to work right now. That, you know, we've, we've got to make childcare cheaper, we've got to make it more accessible, we've got to make it more attractive for people to work in that industry, too, right. It's a, you know, notoriously low paying job. You know, we've got to, with childcare, I'd also say, it's such an opportunity to improve our Pre-K education, which is really lacking. And, you know, it's one of the differences in, in households and I, I remember, when I started studying a lot of these issues, if you had said to me, oh, "What's more important, going to a good, you know, kindergarten, or going to a good college?" I, my thought was, "Oh, you know, you want to go to an elite college." But, you know, all the research shows, it's early education that matters, it sets you on this path to for success. And, you know, some kids are read to, you know, all the time; they grow up in a household that, that values education, if they're not, this is an opportunity to, to get them reading and to, you know, to get them to see sort of the joy of books and things like that. So I think childcare is an obvious issue, we've got to make it more accessible, and more affordable. Um, you know, we've got to, we've got to figure out how to incentivize companies to, you know, to make it easier for women to stay in, in the workforce. We've got to change the culture of companies, you know, we, we have, one of the things that we see, again, and not a comment on whether this is right or wrong, but just the fact that it is, is that, you know, women are taking all this responsibility or bear all this responsibility for you know, sick parents, kids, whatever it is. And so the result is that in a lot of these industries, that are jobs that require face time, you know, when you think about law and banking, you you don't see as many women at senior levels. And so, you know, there has to be more flexibility, you know, we have to reduce the importance of that, that face time. You know, there are little cultural issues at work that um, you know, that we have to sort of accept these gender differences that... you know, and I think this is an ironic one, but but what I always think about is that, you know, when women make mistakes, they tend to apologize, you know, funny thing, and men don't. And the, you know, these are general observations and, and I think that what you find is that apologizing is seen as a sign of weakness, right, which is insane. I mean, you know, I certainly...

Erica D'Eramo 14:31

I know, (laughter)

Sandy Leeds 14:32

You know, I certainly hope I always apologize when I make a mistake. I you know, I certainly teach, you know, all my kids, you know, my my sons and my daughter to always apologize, you know, we need transparency and financial reports, we need to understand, um, you know, the numbers of, of, you know, gender equality and wages. Um, you know, maybe what we need are incentives, tax incentives for companies. You know, we inset production in the US, why would you not incent, equality? You know, I think customers have to care, right? I mean, it has to be something that, that we care about. And I think, I think in certain fields, clients do care, right? They, they want to, they would like to do at least see diversity, they would like to see that it's not all men, you know, we, we know, I was an asset management, and we know that men and women think differently, and, you know, you're going to understand some products better than I am, I'm going to understand some products better than you do, because I use them, or you use them, right, and you see the world differently. And, you know, we all know, I don't have the numbers, you know, at the forefront, but, you know, we all know, the amount of home purchases that are done by the woman in the house, like, you know, I, you know, I'm my wife, you know, takes care of, like buying so much of the stuff I you know, I'm involved in, in so little of it, in many ways. And so, it's so important to be thinking that way. We knew that asset management, but it's got to be, it's got to be valued. You know, we've got to figure out better ways of, of, you know, helping women to get to the top, even if their career is disrupted. And, you know, I think that, that, you know, one of the things, and we've seen this at, you know, my university is that, you know, we've got to do wage surveys and make sure that wages are fair, um, you know, even in, you know, sort of liberal universities, you will find that there is inequality and, you know, inequality certainly makes people leave the workforce, if, if I'm not being treated fairly, if I'm not being respected, I will leave, I think, you know, I think one of the, you know, most important things, though, like, for a really long term perspective, is, we've got to, we've got to make women and, and, really, what I should say, is girls aware of jobs that they can get, when they get older, and when they, you know, when they go to college, and or, you know, whether or not they go to college, and after college, it's, you know, one of the things that that we tried to do, I ran this MBA investment fund at Texas for about 13 years. And one of the big problems we had was, it was all men, it was all men, you know, we would get, we would get all these applications from men, we, you know, we sometimes, we got no applications from women, sometimes we'd get one or two. And, you know, part of it was that... so, so, a woman, I worked with, Laura Starks, who's unbelievable, but you know, just just incredible what she's done. But she and I started this, this little conference for all the MBA women, right when they arrived at school, and to show them that, look, this is a field that's dying, to have women in it, um, that it's not just investment banking, where you do have to work insane hours, which, you know, again, a lot of women had already decided, look, I want to have a family and a career and banking is not going to work. Asset Management, you're not a better stock picker by, you know, working till 11 o'clock at night. And so we tried to sort of show that and we bring in, you know, very successful women from the field. But what we realized, it was already too late, it was already too late, they had gotten here. And they had already decided, you know, I mean, it's hilarious to see that, it's like, you get here, and you see the guys going to finance and the women go into marketing. It's like, you gotta be kidding me. I mean, it's, it's like 40 years ago, you know, and so, so the point is, it's too late at that point. And so we've got to start much earlier, and just sort of convincing people that look, this is a career for you. And you know, you're gonna see I mean, you see these little changes, you know, there there were, you know, women referees in the in the Super Bowl, you know, there was a woman from Vanderbilt who, you know, kicked in a college football game, those things they really do matter, I think, but but I think just on a more practical matter, you just you got to see women money managers, clients want to see it, little girls need to see it. And I think, you know, that's sort of my long tirade, but that's, you know, that's, that's, I think, what you know, what will really change things.

Erica D'Eramo 19:33

Yeah, we say the same issues in engineering as well. By the time you get to university, your pipeline has already diminished so much, nevermind by the end of university, but you raised a couple of points that I, I think are really interesting, in the context of COVID. So the face time issue, I'm wondering, with us, being forced into remote working, how much we are, perhaps, challenging the concept that you have to be in the office meeting clients face to face for X number of hours per day in order to be successful in this role. Do you think there's any opportunity for change there? Perhaps like a small silver lining on the COVID experience?

Sandy Leeds 20:19

That's interesting. You know, one of the interesting things that I've seen, you've probably seen the statistics, too, is that people are working more, people are working more from home. And I don't know, if they're just reporting that they're working more, or if they're actually working more, but I found that interesting. But, you know, I think that I think that this whole remote working is is a double edged sword. I, you know, what I'm really afraid of is, you know, a lot of these places are saying, look, you can go work from anywhere, you know, there are lots of firms in San Francisco in particular, they're saying, go work for anywhere, we're gonna adjust your pay down, if you're not in San Francisco, but but you can go live at the beach, the mountains, whatever, whatever you want to do. That sounds great. I, my real fear is this, that you are now going to be sort of a cog in the wheel, that you are, you know, are we going to promote you to a high level? Or are you you know, Erica in the mountains that handles accounts receivable, and that's sort of what you're good for. And that scares me, for everyone who's who's working remote

Erica D'Eramo 21:22

Proximity bias? Yeah.

Sandy Leeds 21:24

Absolutely. I mean, I think that you know, who's gonna get it, who's gonna get promoted, I worry will be the people who are working in headquarters. So so that scares me. But I will tell you this. I think that the the real benefit, could be particularly for women. In that, I think, as we accept remote work, I think that fits in with the flexibility. And and I think that, that, the other thing that is really helpful is if you think about that research, that I was mentioning that one of the one of the big causes of wage inequality on a gender, from a gender perspective, is the fact that women often move because of their partner. And, and they are then looking for a job without having a job. And that's just brutal to your wages, especially if you if you're at a higher level, where it's really hard to get those wages. Well, if you can at least keep your job, then from there, you can search for a job with, with the fact that you are now still making good wages, you're in a completely different position. And so I think from that perspective, it's it's a real positive, I think, the flexibility that it may offer so that we don't lose people from from the labor force, and also the fact that it will help you negotiate on a much, much better basis, I think that those things are, are possibly going to be the silver lining from all this.

Erica D'Eramo 23:01

Yeah, I think addressing that wage gap is just, and the root causes of that wage gap are, are really key to the retention factor, because of the very decisions that families have to make, right. And it becomes a compounding issue of, you know, maybe the woman isn't making as much because of wage discrimination or not, I'm not advocating for herself enough or having to take, you know, a few years off to be a primary caregiver. And then when you move that that's how the decision is made about who is the leading spouse in the lagging spouse, and so it just compounds on itself. So yeah, really interesting thoughts.

Sandy Leeds 23:43

Absolutely. I would also say this. I mean, it seems to just from my reading of the research that you're right, that that that does drive that sort of, you know, who's the higher earning and who's low earning, and so who do we move for? But I think that the research also shows that it's more than that, that it can that sometimes the husband is the lower earning spouse, but that is whose job we move forward to. I mean, I mean, I, you know...

Erica D'Eramo 23:56

Hm, societal as well as

Sandy Leeds 24:10

I think they're all issues and yeah, no, but I do think that's changing. I do think

Erica D'Eramo 24:15

Yeah. Well, I, you mentioned a comment about what I interpret as inclusivity, right, of women apologizing and that being seen as weakness, just some of these ways that we are shaped by society that represent in the workforce. And to me, I think, we hear a lot of talk about diversity and the importance of diversity. And we know better decisions are made by teams that have diverse perspectives, which you mentioned, that the idea of inclusivity to me is so important if we're going to bring these people into the workforce, but then punish them for behaving in the way that they've been socialized their entire lives. So if we truly want diverse thinking, it has to be more than just statistics, right? It has to be do we welcome people who apologize? And do we welcome, you know, humility or team building or some of these things that we typically associate with female behaviors? are we celebrating that? Or are we? Are we just really celebrating typically male behaviors and wanting our, our statistics to look a little different?

Sandy Leeds 24:22

Right, I think you're absolutely right. And I and and i think that what we forget is that clients customers often want the traits that we do tend to see more in women than men, that a willingness to say, you know, I don't know everything I don't, I don't understand everything, the willingness to apologize for mistakes, empathy. You know, I was reading an article recently about a private wealth management firm that caters to women. And they basically were saying, you know, what, what women clients want is empathy. They want someone who understands what their situation is, and, and you know, that the women investors were more likely to want their money to be doing something that was good, it wasn't just about having the most money, and, you know, and, and so, you know, I think I think those are all important.

Erica D'Eramo 26:22

That's fascinating. I, one of my tests, when I, when I do approach a company, and they talk to me about their parental leave, and how it's an example of them helping women particularly, I always ask, to what extent the men in the company are taking that parental leave as well, if it's available to them. And it's fascinating to me, because men are not taking parental leave, even when it's available, even when it's paid and free. So that's, that tells me very clearly that there is a there is a price or there is a stigma around the leave itself. And so I always wonder, you know, it might be paid parental leave, but what is the non-monetary price that's being paid? Because even when we neutralize the monetary aspect, men who can take leave are not necessarily taking it?

Sandy Leeds 27:14

Absolutely. I mean, you know, it's, I think that in the older generation, right, and I put myself in, in there, and I'm not saying I think like this, but I think in the older generation that is seen, that's seen as soft, right? It's that that's not what you do to succeed. And I think that I, you know, I think I think that is changing over time. And you know, I think I actually am more encouraged about gender inequality than maybe other issues. But I that I think, I think it's moving in the right direction. But I think that, um, I think it is really tough to get guys to do that. And it's, and especially in some industries, rather than, than others, and, you know, I agree with you.

Erica D'Eramo 28:05

Yeah, so this is a message to all the men out there who have parental leave coming up, please take it because it helps reduce stigma for the women who really do want to take for parental leave as well. So it's better for everyone. And those are prime prime weeks and months with the new addition to your family.

Sandy Leeds 28:22

Erica, I'll make a quick parenting comment about that. And that is that we have, we have three kids, and you know, the the, the third one was adopted. And so basically, that meant that she was bottle fed. And she was really the only one that I got up with on a regular basis. I got up every night with her. And what a huge difference I think it made. I mean, it was great for me, but I just think it's great for the relationship. And it's one of the things I tell all my you know, students as far as my my guy, the male students is that it makes a huge difference to miss that, miss out on that sleep. It really pays off. So anyway, there's my little commercial, my parenting commercial. Thank you.

Erica D'Eramo 29:09

So beyond just some of the impacts to women working in the workforce, we've also seen impacts as far as you know, other underserved communities, communities of color, etc. They've been particularly hard hit by COVID from an economic perspective, from a health perspective aspect. What are your thoughts on that topic?

Sandy Leeds 29:33

Um, you're absolutely right. I mean, I think that, you know, we we've sort of all read about the problems of that, and you say people of color, that's such a broad category, really. But when we particularly when we think about people, you know, who, if you just think of lower income, living in crowded housing and work on the front lines and not having access to health care. You know, not having assets that are benefiting as home prices are increasing and stock prices are going up. And, you know, we're seeing problems with less access to technology, so kids aren't attending school, from lower income households. You know, all those things are, are huge. And, you know, I think that I think that it's not just the pandemic, I mean, these these things have been, you know, these been issues for forever. And so, you know, I think those are the things that we're, you know, we're trying to figure out of how do we do better? And, you know, I think that a lot of these are the same sort of solutions, that, you know, we need better Pre-K, you know, for schools, we need, we need to figure out how to stop kids from from dropping out. We, you know, I think one of the biggest things is, in most parts of this country, we really do fund schools with local taxes. So if you're in a poor area, there's going to be poor funding. And, you know, we're one of just a handful of developed nations that spend less educating our low income, lower income kids than our higher income kids. That's crazy, like, how do you expect to have mobility if that's if that's what we do? Yeah, we need to make it safe to go to school. And in a lot of lower income neighborhoods, that's a dangerous walk. And, you know, we've got to, we've got to figure that out, we got to figure out minimum wage. Right. I mean, you know, that's a big issue. Right now, the Congressional Budget Office just put out a report this week about that. And, you know, it's interesting, because we know that if you make workers more expensive, you will have a loss of some jobs, right, that ultimately, you'll find that people, places will find a way to automate and that kind of thing. But the reality is, like, if you look at it, and that's what you've sort of seen that the CBO report basically says, you know, the idea of raising minimum wage is dead, because, you know, we could lose a million jobs. You know, if you look at it, it also says that, you know, we'll move like, you know, 27, will, like 10 million people out of poverty and 17 million people are likely to be better off because they were making a little bit more than minimum wage, and it's going to be raised up. And it's like, everything has a trade off, you know, everything has a trade off. And, you know, one of the things, I'll just also say that, what we've seen is that a large percentage of the country has already raised the minimum wage, right? The federal minimum wage is $7.25. But many states and cities have said, "No, you've got to pay more." We haven't seen, we haven't seen that loss of employment. And so, you know, we've got it, we've got to figure that one out. And it is it's a difficult issue, because you have really high cost standard of living in you know, San Francisco, you've got low cost of living in Mississippi, and can you you know, can you raise it to $15. And maybe it needs to be adjusted another way. But, you know, I think that's a big issue. I think, I think you you've got to have people in power, who want to help force change, I think of David Swensen is a very famous money manager, he manages Yale's endowment, and he's sort of seen as the, the guru in that field. And, you know, basically, he, you know, sometime in the last few months, he basically said, "Look, when we farm out money to money managers, we're going to be looking for diversity, you know, we we need to promote this." You know, we need role models, just like, like we talked about with the the gender issues, and, you know, you've sort of talked about engineering, but, you know, we need to do a better job of early explaining careers, you know, I think we need to get people of color near the money, right, that that to help, you know, wealth accumulation. I saw some statistics about financial planners, the CFP designation for financial planners, which I don't have, but, but just sort of looking at it. And it's like, I saw that 23% of financial planners are women, of course, you know, women make up just over 50% of our population. Black CFPs, 1.7%, you know, Black Americans...

Erica D'Eramo 34:18

That's striking.

Sandy Leeds 34:19

Yeah, black Americans, 13%, right, of our population, Hispanic CFPs, two and a half percent. That's 18% of our population, right? I mean, you've got to, you know, you, that that's a huge thing. You got to promote this wealth accumulation. And you've got to be near people who understand it, and know how to do it. And so that's really important. You've got to promote, not just like hiring, but training and mentoring and retaining and how many people are getting to senior levels. You know, we again, we need more transparency on all these things, and we need to make sure that, one of the things I I think that has certainly improved is we're getting a lot of lower income kids a lot of kids of color into colleges, but then from there, are they getting the same opportunities? You know, just I just look in the business school, when when you grew up with a dad, who was a banker, maybe a mom, but more likely a dad, who was a banker, or you know, whatever, you know how to dress, right? You know how to act in these interviews. Those are the things that if you didn't come from that, how would you know? I mean, I can literally remember I mean, this is this sounds so funny. This is, you know, this sounds like Saturday Night Fever or something but, but which that's probably, you know, a reference way before your time, Erica, but but the bottom line is, like, I remember when I was a first year law student, and I was interviewing, and after my interview, I was in the same city as my older sister who's five years older, she was like a second mother to me. And we're sitting at dinner, and she looked across to me, I was in a suit. And she said, "Alright, you have got to wear an undershirt underneath your shirt." And I was like, Yeah, I didn't, know, it's like, you know, she was lucky, I didn't have like, my collar open with my gold chains. But the bottom line is, that that's what you need. Right? And, and, you know, like, I was fortunate, because I had her five years ahead. And, you know, she was the one who told me "Look, in college, you've got to take classes from these three teachers, because they're nationally known, you've got to excel in those classes, you know, get to know them, and have them write your letters of recommendation, because that's the only way you're going to get into a top law school." Right? Who knew? I would have never known that, right. I didn't want to know any teachers. You know, I just I was just getting through. And so, you know, we need that kind of mentoring. Especially because a lot of us, you know, didn't have it unless, unless we were lucky enough to have, you know, a sibling that went ahead of us. And, you know, and I think something like you said earlier, at the end of the day, people have to appreciate that, that diversity results in more creative solutions, that it attracts clients. You know, just just from a business perspective, you have to remember that people of color are going to be the majority by 2045. And, you know, I think it's just, it's a matter of, I think most people, it's, it's not a matter of wanting to discriminate, or anything like that, I think it's a matter that most of us just tend to like people who are just like us, you know, that they look like us, they act like us, they have the same backgrounds, like, you know, you meet someone, it's like, oh, this is my long lost brother. And you know, and that's a tough one that, you know, and I think, you know, you see places like the NFL trying to say no, you know, you've got to interview others, you know, people who don't look like your brother. And yeah, you know, it's tough. But I think that when you have these natural tendencies to do that, and I think we all do that.

Erica D'Eramo 38:08

Yeah, I mean, there are many books written on heuristics and how biases work, and they're there in order to help us survive as a species. And also, they don't necessarily drive the best decisions for a business. So that's why we need to put more systemic processes in place so that we're not just relying upon our own biases for who gets the promotion or who gets the informal mentoring. You're, because you're right, there are so many unspoken rules. And this is across anyone who's not been in the tent, you know, in the inside club. They don't necessarily know those unspoken rules, they don't necessarily know to wear the undershirt or who to talk to or which, which, you know, club they should join, to hobnob. So. Yeah. How are we going to address that in a more systemic, repeatable way, that's not reliant on our human brains, which are, you know, wired for survival, but not necessarily, for the best overall outcome.

Sandy Leeds 39:13

I tell you another story with that. And the point of it is, I think sometimes you have to say uncomfortable things. Like when I was at a, I was at a big law firm. And when we were recruiting, what we would do is we would take a recruit to dinner, and then the next day, we would interview them, and basically the young associate, which was me, and, you know, I was one of a billion of them, but but the young associate would go pick up the recruit and take them to dinner and we'd meet a partner, often a partner and their spouse there. And I, we had this recruit of a woman and the partner said to her at dinner, "Why did you go to this other school rather than the University of Texas?" We were Dallas firm. And she said, "You know, I didn't get into Texas." And, you know, she didn't realize it, but at that point the interview was done. She wasn't getting a job. And, you know, the correct answer was, you know, "This school had this program, you know, program x, and that really attracted me. And I thought I was gonna get this really unique experience," and that kind of thing. And, you know, when I drove her back to her hotel, I told her, I said, you know, I said, "Look," I said, "Please don't repeat this," because the reality was, I would have been in a lot of trouble for telling her this, I said, "You're not going to get a job, you know, the odds are against you, because no one wants to hear that you didn't get into Texas." And I said, "You know, you're gonna, you're gonna have so many opportunities at these big firms," because he or she was on Law Review and that kind of thing. And I said, you know, here's, here's how you need to answer this. And, and, you know, I really questioned the whole drive, whether I should say this to her or not, and I did. And it was funny, because she wrote me a long, long letter, you know, handwritten letter, several months later, and, and basically, we just like, "Thank you so much, I would have repeated that, you know, so many times," and she told me all the different offers she got? And, you know, I think so sometimes you have to say those uncomfortable things to help people. And you know, it's one things I was always happy that I did. But I think that's, you know, that I was sort of doing what my sister said to me, although my sister had no trouble saying anything uncomfortable.

Erica D'Eramo 41:37

Yeah, I think this is one of the things that I worry the most about with the chilling effect of some of the, the narrative that we're hearing after the #MeToo movement. I mean, we're still in the #MeToo movement, but some of the commentary that I've heard about how men are just, like pulling back, and not engaging, rather than just engaging respectfully, it's, it's like, oh, I'm just gonna not take any risks. And it deprives people, women of women, particularly women of color, just anyone who needs that guidance, that kind of clue into what the what the silent messages are. I feel like they're being deprived of that whenever we sort of say like, "Oh, the safest thing is to just not go to dinner with that person or not have a beer with that person." They're missing out on kind of that, that little like, "Hey, this is how this needs to go. You wouldn't have known that unless I could be really candid with you." So, yeah, yeah. I mean, I think we'll, we'll have to find our way through it, I just hope that people are still willing to have the openness, the brave conversations and to be corrected, sometimes, you know, it's I mean, it, it can be uncomfortable, and sometimes we step on a line, and sometimes we get corrected, and, and we have to not, like run away with our tail between our legs and just come back and, and keep engaging and keep growing. So yeah, it's it's tough, but I'm, so I'm curious if there's any, any other thoughts you have on, you know, some of the some of the more systematic things that, from a macroeconomics point of view, we should be looking at, just with COVID now, in our hindsight, as we go forward?

Sandy Leeds 43:35

Well, I mean I think that from from a macro perspective, I think we need to figure out how we can avoid this happening again, you know, I think that, you know, from what I'm reading, the, the most important thing you can do is shut everything down right away. And, you know, in other words, and, you know, this sounds terrible, but it's, you've got to shut down for a few weeks right away, you've got to, you've got to actually close the borders, you've got to do everything, it just has to, you've got to get rid of the virus, because once it gets out, it's done. And, you know, there was nothing we could do after sort of the initial decisions. And so, you know, I think I think we've got to figure this this one out, because it certainly could, could happen. Again, I think that's, you know, I think that's a really big, big issue. You know, I think I think that this, you know, what everyone says about COVID is that it's accelerated so many of the trends, you know, the, the colleges that are in trouble are now in more trouble now. You know, we're so much more ready to do a meeting by Zoom rather than travel across the country. Um, you know, I think that, that it also may be accelerating inequality, income inequality, and maybe better said wealth inequality where, you know, those of us with houses and stock portfolios are doing great and as That's

Erica D'Eramo 45:00

Assets are going up.

Sandy Leeds 45:02

You know, I said several times in my class last semester that we would feel a lot different about this if stocks were still down 35% like they were in March. But, you know, the reality is that when it's not where um, you know, I don't really feel the pain, I don't feel if I in fact, I'm spending a lot less money right now. And, you know, I think that's an issue. I think one of the big macro issues that we're facing right now is, I think that we're doing all the stimulus spending, all these people have, the majority of our savings are much higher, and we've got $1.6 trillion more savings than we would have otherwise, because of all the government transfers. I personally think that, you know, we need to be doing a better job of giving money to the people who need it, rather than just in general sending out checks, you know, if you're making $100,000, and you're still working, I'm not sure why we should be sending checks, we need to be able to support the unemployed for longer periods of time. And, you know, I think it's easy when we have a crisis to spend money, but you got to remember that this is going to mean that we do less infrastructure spending in the future things that are going to, you know, make it easier for people who live in a low income neighborhood to have transportation to jobs, right. I mean, like things that really matter, you know, rather than just sending money to people who already have jobs, you know, I think I think part of what we're doing. And, you know, it's and this is a particularly easy time to do this, to say this, because the Republicans did it. And now the Democrats are doing it. Like, I think I think those are some of the really big macro issues that that we're seeing.

Erica D'Eramo 46:48

Yeah, yeah, the infrastructure comment is an interesting one, like, what are we doing for the long term to make, to make to dull the impact perhaps, of future crises like this, and having some of that underlying infrastructure is probably critical. So I am curious, for on an individual level, what your advice would be on how, you know, we can maybe break down some of these barriers around the perceived boys club of investment and talking about the markets and talking about our stocks, because I still find it somewhat intimidating to be honest, even after an MBA and after working in mergers and acquisitions. I, it's not a conversation I readily will jump into for fear of kind of not saying the right thing or being seen as, you know, investment illiterate. And yet, if you asked me to talk about a compressor, I could talk for days. Yeah, so what can we do for individuals like me that want increased awareness vocabulary?

Sandy Leeds 48:04

Well, first, let me say that if you find someone who wants to talk about a compressor for several days, let let me know, so I can stay away. The, the, and the reality is, like, I don't even know what a compressor is. But the you know, I think that I tell you, this is gonna sound funny, but I think the best thing someone could do is, they could every so often watch CNBC, and when they watch CNBC, they should have a notebook. And they should write down what all the experts say. And then look at that notebook a month later, and you'll see that just as often as being right, they're wrong, that, you know, it's, it's like when you hear an expert tell you who's gonna win a game, you know, a football game or a basketball game, that kind of thing. You know, I trust that they know a lot more than I do, that they played the game and that kind of thing. They're, they're wrong just as often as they're right. And so, you know, I think that's the first thing to do to get confidence is to realize that none of us know what's going on. You know, it, no one would have told you on March 23rd, that we were going to have this huge rally, right and stocks and that's, that's when the market bottomed or how the financial crisis was gonna end or anything like that. So I think the first thing to realize is that the biggest difference is that some people can really speak with confidence and others are humble enough to realize that they don't know. And, you know, I think from there, that what you have to do is find something that you can read that doesn't take you know, 100 hours a week, and that you can just sort of keep building and I will tell you that this that like students would always say to me, what should "What should I be reading?" And one summer, you know, when I had a couple days, I took a couple days to do nothing but asked that question, like what should I tell the students to read because I grew up reading the Wall Street Journal. You know, it's just sort of what I was used to. But there's so much now there's so much online. And, you know, I think that number one you got, you got to find what you like. But I will say I'm a huge fan of Barron's, Barron's comes out once a week it comes out Saturday morning, it's it's dated Monday, um, it actually online comes out at about 10 o'clock, you know, I guess 10 o'clock, Eastern Time, nine o'clock Central roughly, I can sort of see the articles. And the reason I think that's, that's a great source is that the Wall Street Journal and Financial Times, all those places, they tell you what the news was, like what happened. Barron's tells you how the markets reacted to the news. And I think that's what we all want to learn. I think one of the other you know, one of the other best piece of advice that I give students who want to learn this stuff is: it's great to read read read, but a great thing to do is instead of reading so many articles, and not retaining that much, is outline a few articles. And when you do that, you sort of see how ideas fit together. And that's, that's sort of that really careful reading that helps you learn. And, you know, you're not going to know everything all at once. But it's just that, that inquiry that that drives you to, to a higher level. And you know, that that'd be my best advice. But I think also, um, you know, just to realize that most, no one knows what's going to happen, if any of us knew whatt was gonna happen, if any of us knew what was gonna happen to Bitcoin or Tesla, you know, or GameStop at one point, I mean, you know, we'd all be fabulously wealthy, and but every so often, some people get lucky, but it's hard to repeat. And so you sort of have to realize that they're, you know, they're just some basic concepts we have to know about diversification and investing. And, and, you know, the most important thing is to participate. And I tell you, one last thing it was study, I saw that, that basically, they asked people how knowledgeable they were about finance. And what you found was that a lot of people assess themselves as very knowledgeable. And you know that tends to be you know, that confidence tends to be a male trait. And what happens though, is that the people who are super confident, they invest, and I would argue that, even if they do dumb things, and they underperform the market by a significant amount, they're still usually earning a positive rate of return.

Erica D'Eramo 53:00

And this is confirmation bias.

Sandy Leeds 53:03

People who don't, don't invest, because they think they know nothing, they get zero. And so, you know, I think that you really have to think about the importance of that confidence and getting and getting into the game. Because there are simple things you can do with just to putting your money in index funds, having a really long term perspective. You know, I like even at my age, where my might term isn't really as long, and I'm risk averse, when I do is I think of my money and you know our money in our family as our kids money. And they have a really long time horizon. And so that lets me have that perspective that you don't really need much more than that.

Erica D'Eramo 53:46

Yeah, that's, that, and those are, that's accessible. I think a lot of people perceive that it takes wealth to learn about wealth, it takes kind of the rich dad or the, like I said, the, you know, Executive MBA experience or whatever. And, and actually, there are publications and there are ways that we can, there's TV, there's CNBC, and there are ways that we can just increase our own vocabulary, understanding and literacy around investments in the in the markets. So yeah, thank you so much for your thoughts on that. Are there are there any other kind of closing thoughts that you had or recommendations?

Sandy Leeds 54:31

I don't know that we have anything else I think, you know, these are these are such interesting issues. I you know, they're issues that I read about all the time and you know, want to learn more about and so so I appreciate you talking with me about these.

Erica D'Eramo 54:45

Well, one resource that you have not recommended but I will recommend is signing up for your kind of weekly markets review that is very informative, and just really helps me distill down the key things that I should be understanding from what's happening in, you know, in the week. So again that you can sign up for at sandyleeds.com, and, and any other kind of events or courses that you're hosting, I think you put that up there as well and inform folks, so it's a good resource.

Sandy Leeds 55:20

I do. Well thank you very much.

Erica D'Eramo 55:22

Yeah, thank you, Sandy. We appreciate it. And for Two Piers, you can find our information on any of the social media platforms. So we're on Facebook, we're on Twitter, Instagram, and LinkedIn and you can always find us at our website, which is twopiersconsulting.com.

Stress In Times of Confinement

Photo courtesy of Unsplash.

This week, we invite our first guest to join us in discussing stress in times of confinement. Alisa Tijerina helps us explore experiences and observations related to recognizing and managing stress when we can't leave the house, (or our workplace). 

We’ve included a transcript of our conversation below:

Erica: Hello and welcome to the Two Piers Podcast, Season One, Episode Five. I'm your host, Erica D'Eramo, and today we will be talking about stress. We also have our first guest today, which, with social distancing, has been a technological challenge, but we're making it work. So, joining us is Alisa Tijerina. Welcome, Alisa!

Alisa: Hi, Erica. Thank you. Happy to be here.

Erica: So, Alisa has some experience with stress, and particularly stress in the, uh, in a confined environment. So, yeah, Alisa, do you wanna tell us a little bit about yourself?

Alisa: Um, yeah. So, I have worked in oil and gas for multiple years now too many to even count. Um, and I've lived all over the world and have worked in confined spaces. I've worked on an offshore, oil rig, and I've worked in the middle of the desert. I've worked in the Arctic. So, lots of confined spaces, high hazard industry, and, of course, lots of stress.

Erica: Yes. So great opportunity to contribute to contribute to this podcast. So April is stress Awareness Month and we thought it would be appropriate to discuss stress in the context of confinement as much of the world right now is still under a stay at home order and will likely be for some time in the future. So, in this podcast, today will be sharing our experiences between Alisa and myself and what has worked for us, and what has worked for some other folks as well so that you can potentially find some gems that you can utilize.

Alisa: And of course, we will share the things that have failed for us as well because there's been a lot of that.

Erica: Yes - "what does not work." But a caveat here: so, we are not psychologists, and we can only share our lived experiences, and some other resource is that we found that will hopefully be of use to you. So, what is stress? And is it bad? Kind of, this is, this is a fundamental question. So, Medline is a site hosted by the National Institute of Health, and it's, it's really helpful. It provides a definition for us of stress. So, stress, as defined by them, is a feeling of emotional or physical tension. It can come from any event or thought that makes you feel frustrated, angry or nervous. Stress is your body's reaction to a challenge or demand. In short bursts, stress can be positive, such as when it helps you avoid danger or meet a deadline. But when stress lasts for a long time, it may cause harm to your health. So, Alisa, how do you feel about that definition?

Alisa: Makes sense! Yeah, totally makes sense. I, uh, I like the positive stress. I like the adrenaline of the short burst. And I do definitely think that it makes me, um, perform better, under stress, but as long as it's in the short burst time frame. No, I really do - I thrive on that. I mean, that's like the, that's the adrenaline rush. That's the, "I've got a deadline. We're gonna you know, we're gonna stay up. We're gonna do this! We're gonna finish it. It's gonna be awesome. We're gonna rock it." You know that. That's -that is, um you know, it's an upper. I feel like I perform well under those conditions.

Erica: Yea, I mean, that's how, like, that's how amusement parks and carnivals make their money, right? Because I know that at a certain point, humans do like that kind of, um, short burst of adrenaline, which is stress.

Alisa: Absolutely. But the thing about amusement parks is that, you know, that ride's gonna end, right? So, you're not gonna be... I think I would be... I would have chronic stress if I knew I was going on a roller coaster for 10 years or whatever it was that would be horrible. But for that two minutes, "Great! I'm on it. Yes - let me right again."

Erica: And, of course, there's an element to that of control, and it's our choice, and our agency hasn't been taken away,

Alisa: ...and we're confident that it will end, and we will be back, yeah, back on our feet and able to eat a funnel cake.

Erica: Yeah, but today we'll be primarily talking about chronic stress, right? Chronic stress is the opposite of that. So that's the one where we do not have an end date to it. It's not associated with a specific event. It doesn't, like, peak and then pass. Chronic stress is just sort of that noise that exists in the background. And we know that chronic stress has all sorts of implications to it. And those can be physical. They can be health related. It could be high blood pressure, heart disease. There's all sorts of health related issues connected to chronic stress, but it can also be relational. It can take a toll on our relationships. It can take a toll on our performance, our careers, etcetera... Do you have any examples of how chronic stress...

Alisa: ...has affected me? Yeah. Um, well, I would say that it took me a while to even recognize chronic stress because I thought that was just my normal. I thought, you know, I'm gonna in this intense job. I am in a job where I'm accountable for people's lives. Um, I'm the one who has to be strong for everybody. It's just it's a high stress job. Or, you know, you know, I had those experiences, and I just, I just thought that that was my normal. I didn't actually associate it with stress. I associate it with, "I have a high level of stress tolerance because I'm in a demanding job." Um, and I'm in a... and I'm essentially in a box in the ocean having to manage this demanding job. Um, so that's, you know, that confinement on top of a demanding job, you know, is it - you know, it's just, it's additive, so it's even an additional stress. It took me a while to realize that even that, that normal of a demanding job, that kind of, you know, my normal day of a demanding job was still causing stress, you know, on me. And that was the chronic stress. And when I thought I was fine; I was actually experiencing a lot of stress.

Erica: Yeah, like very high levels. Yeah. So, I want to explore a few things there. First of all, um, this idea that we - we're almost like frogs in boiling water sometimes, right? We don't - we don't even recognize the amount of stress that we're under until either it's alleviated, perhaps, and we realize, like, "Whoa, I just let this way off my shoulders." Or... until, unfortunately, something happens, so, you know, we have, like, a heart attack, or we, um we snap at somebody that we love or we make some sort of mistake or oversight that, that costs us in some way or hurt somebody else. So, what were some of the ways that you found to recognize when you were under this level of stress that had sort of become normalized to you?

Alisa: Hmmm. Good question. The analogy you used with the frog in the boiling water? I think that just hits the nail on the head. Right? So, if you think about just kind of going back to that analogy putting the frog directly in boiling water, that's the acute stress, putting it in the cold water and then boiling it. That's the chronic stress. I mean, that's a that is, seriously, a perfect analogy.

Erica: So how are some ways that you identify when you are feeling or when you're experiencing chronic stress? Because if, if you're anything like me, it takes something to, like, put the light bulb on that, "Oh. Oh no. I am stressed! And I've probably been operating under, like, a huge amount of stress for a while now."

Alisa: Absolutely. So, I...

Erica: Is it, like, physical? Is it relational? Is an emotional? What is it for you?

Alisa: So, there's... Yeah. So, all three. Yes, yes, yes. Um, but first of all, I would say that it took me years to figure this out, and it was not all of a sudden that I was like, "Oh, this is how I feel." And, "Oh, I'm stressed." No, no, no. I mean, we're talking like 15... like not not even like, one year, two years... I mean, 15 years

Erica: In your career, as an adult...

Alisa: In my career as an adult to figure this out. Um, which I mean, I consider myself pretty smart and 15 years to learn something...

Erica: Yeah, and accomplished

Alisa: 15 years to learn something? Oh, my God. Like that's a long time. Um, personally, I get - I hold stress in my stomach, and I've known that since I was a kid. Um, you know, anxiety and stress. I feel it in my stomach. I end up, um, you know, having a stomachache, or I feel like after the bathroom, but I don't really. You know that, that that kind of physical reaction, I definitely have. I do find my heart beats faster. Um, I get colder. You know those are kind of easy physical tell tales. Um, emotional: I find that if I have chronic stress, things that normally wouldn't bother me are bothering me. I find that I'll snap at my mom at something that she's, you know, done my entire life. But, you know, today it's bothering me and that that's a bit of a trigger.

Erica: Yeah, those all make sense. I think for me, I tend to tense my shoulders up and so I'll get like an aching pain in my left shoulder, and that's an indicator to me that I'm chronically stressed. Or like tension headaches are another one, um, and my blood pressure goes up when I normally have very low blood pressure. But when I am under stress, that's definitely a quick, easy measure for me to tell that something is wrong. And I agree completely - I think, like, the other week we had so many different things that were going on and really some, some tragedy that I hadn't probably dealt with enough. And so, something tiny, like a LinkedIn post that was a misattribution of, you know, somebody's like poetry just kind of put me into a meltdown, and I thought, "Oh, this is a... This is a gift. This is an indicator that I am clearly stressed right now because something this small doesn't really matter in the grand scheme."

Alisa: That's really, um, interesting that you say that because that, that really... If you tie into what's going on in the world right now with Corona virus, um, and people working from home and you know, people getting sick and, um, confinement. All of that, uh, is an added stressor.

Erica: Yeah. So, in the time of Corona virus, I think where we are all dealing with various levels of anxiety, various levels of grief, even those of us who haven't lost a loved one, um, we're grieving, you know, maybe the loss of a job? Grieving the loss of opportunity or a future that we had pictured for ourselves that now doesn't look like that will happen. Um, or the loss of, you know just are normal. Normal is kind of gone for a little bit. We'll have a new normal, but we're just not there yet. So, there's some grief involved in that. And in a context like this, where all of those stressors are piling up on each other, it just feels a bit like a... like a boiler room. You know, it feels a bit like under pressure, because there's no relief path.

Alisa: It's that frog in the in the pot of boiling water. 

Erica: Yeah, so you know, there are different... I'm sure there's different ways that each of us respond to chronic stress and building that awareness is probably different for each person. Right? It sounds different between you and I what are indicators are for that. And, um, I think you've done quite a bit of yoga, right? Have you found that that's... has that been kind of a tool for you at all?

Alisa: Yoga has been good because it has helped me listen to my body.

Erica: Yeah, that makes sense.

Alisa: Like you were saying about your shoulders tensing... 

Erica: Yeah...  

Alisa: You know they're constantly telling you in yoga, you know, "relax your shoulders, relax your shoulders." 

Erica: "Are you clenching your jaw?" And you're like, "Oh, wow..."

Alisa: Yeah, I am.

Erica: "I am clenching my jaw! Thank you." Yeah, you don't even realize it.  For me, I had a similar experience with meditation. So, working offshore, it was meditation that gave me that brief kind of interlude where I could put the weight down. And then I realized how heavy the weight was when I went to go pick it back up again, which is, um, very helpful for understanding just how, uh, just how maxed out you are, I think.

Alisa: I've always struggled with mental meditation. Um, I keep trying, and over the last time, this last month with the Covid 19, I have. I've downloaded Headspace, and I've been doing that daily. Um, but I'm not anywhere as near where, you know, where you are, but yoga definitely makes a difference for me.

Erica: Do you find that that has given you any tools, that you apply?

Alisa: Absolutely. So, yoga has allowed me to, um, well, first of all, let me tell you my experience with yoga. I didn't like it. At all. When I first started it, you know, probably 20 years ago, more than that, because I felt like it wasn't a workout - it was just stretching. Um, and then I would have to...

Erica: People would tell me it's boring, and I think...  

Alisa: Yeah, I would have to, I would have to do my stretching, my yoga, and then I would still have to go run or, you know, exercise or go lift weights or something. So, I never really thought it was a workout. Um, but over the years, I ended up rupturing and disc in my back playing tennis and did a lot of yoga for the recovery. And when I started doing that, I realized how beneficial it was for me, and then I was, was addicted to it after that, I do, um I mean, I don't do a whole lot of it now, but I'm pretty regular. Um, but I found that by doing yoga, it allows you, you know you learn how to listen to your body. You learn how to listen to, or figure out what hurts, how you're feeling. There's a lot of, um, you know, you're focusing on just that hour, that, “Now.”  

Erica: Being present.  

Alisa: Being present, putting all those other worries, all those other things that are going on in your life. You're, you know, dedicating that yoga practice too, uh, to you and to, you know, just, you know, your body. So, um, I have gotten a lot out of it.

Erica: Yeah, I think for me it's been beneficial on the mat, and I really benefit from that awareness off the mat that you start to think like, "Oh, I'm clenching my jaw." "Oh, I'm tensing my shoulders." Those little indicators that I might otherwise not be observant of or not even noticed because they're just part of my normal day to day. And for me meditation was a big part of that. Just having that 20 minutes to take the weight off my shoulders and put it down for a little bit. It then made me aware of how much I was carrying in the first place. Um, and then you can adjust, right? And during times like this, where we're all, we are all stressed to some extent or another, we can sort of dial back our expectations on performance a little bit. Maybe you are not gonna perform at 100%. Or we can expect to know to puts mitigations in place because we know that we'll snap it or mom or cry it that commercial or whatever it is that are, you know, however, it is that we express our stress.  

Erica: So, we've talked a little bit about recognizing stress and how to understand when it is that we're stressed, because I don't think we can take that for granted. And I think that's one of the most important parts. But then there's also an element of how do we deal with chronic stress when we're in it? How do we mitigate it? So, what are your thoughts on that?

Alisa: So, my thoughts on how to deal with it... Um I mean, I've learned a lot of things. I've tried a lot of things over the years. I think one of the first things that's important is really to understand why you're feeling it and what kind of, what the actual root cause of that is. You know, why, you know, Are you feeling stressed or are you feeling anxious or are you feeling the way you're feeling because of, you know, because of Covid, because you're worried about your family because you're worried about your neighbors because there's something going on at your work? Um, what is it

Erica: …Or you don't have work?

Alisa: Maybe you don't have work?

Erica: Maybe you've been laid off.

Alisa: You know that there's all these stressors out in the world and I think understanding what that, what the root cause of that stressor is, is actually the first thing that you should do, because if you can name it, then you can, you can try to mitigate it?  

Erica: Yeah, or even just address it and acknowledge it. I think that there's... there is some freedom in recognizing those things that we cannot mitigate right? That whole question of, once we know what the issue is stressing us out, is there something that we can do about it? If so, do it. And if not, if there's nothing you can do about it, then you can put that to the side for a period of time and, and observe. But understanding that there's nothing that you could do about it is kind of freeing in a way, sometimes,

Alisa: Yeah. I think that approaching the stress logically is really important. Because when we're stressed, your initial reaction is not, you're not necessarily thinking logically. Your emotions, you're feeling, you're feeling emotional, you're thinking, you could be thinking with your emotions. So, if you can approach it and try to, write it down, figure out what kind of what it is. You know, am I... I'm stressed because I've, um because I've lost my job. Um, and then you think, "Do I have an emergency fund?" "Do I have this or how can I? You know, how can I feed my family?" And if you can figure out ways to address those, uh, those things, then it, it helps you, um, at least you know you're addressing the thing that's you know, concerning, concerning you.  

Erica: Yeah, there's been a lot published recently from kind of astronauts giving their thoughts on living with stress in isolation. And one of the things that Chris Hatfield recommends is, or one of the analogies he makes with being in space, and the current COVID crisis is that there's this, like, big, unspoken danger out there that's not clearly defined. It's just this kind of big, amorphous, frightening thing. Um, and so, you know, operating a rocket ship is like that. There's just this, there's always a constant elevated level of danger, and it's sort of nameless and quiet. And he compares that to Corona virus. And, to think, Corona virus, it's really, like, the current situations are hitting at every level of Maslow's hierarchy of needs, right? That that philosophy, that there are fundamental needs such as, you know our physical needs that need to be met and our psychological needs that need to be met and really every one of those right now, with Corona virus is, sort of, under threat. Physical needs, physical health. Um, our financial security our, just never mind psychological security. So, um

Alisa: So yeah, I think it's important to, you know, you said this big amorphous, frightening thing. Ah, so if you can name that identify, identifying it versus "Oh, my God, there's this big, amorphous, frightening thing" 

Erica: In the closet.  

Alisa: Yeah, if you could actually break that down even if you can't solve it or even if you can't mitigate it, you at least know what it is.

Erica: You can put a name to the boogeyman.

Alisa: You can put a name to the, exactly. You put a name to the boogeyman.

Erica: Yeah.

Alisa: And I think once you do that. And I think at least for me, that's always, that's been a good first step. Ah, and then the second step is trying to, um almost take your mind off of it, right? So you, you know, have a routine. You, uh, figure out what your, you know, maybe you want to eat healthy or you want to exercise or you need, um you know, you set up something where you can speak to your friends and to your family on a regular basis, you know, understanding what those things are out there that, um, you know, you personally need, like, like the hierarchy of needs, right? So what, what are certain things that I, that I need that'll make me feel better. Like when I worked offshore, I was offshore for, um, multiple weeks at a time. When I first started, it was, I had all these ambitious goals which were, "I'm gonna exercise every day. I'm gonna eat healthy. I'm not gonna go to... not gonna eat any doughnuts. I'm gonna work, you know? I'm gonna work. I gonna get all my work done, you know..."

Erica: You're going to write a book.

Alisa: “Inbox zero! I'm gonna, you know, all of these things." And those are my goals. And, you know, 1st, 1st trip out there fail, fail, fail, fail. Right? And that was a bit of a, bit of a downer. And then I realized that, you know, that was a bit of a ridiculous goal to have, you know, because the reality is "Do I need to do that?" No.

Erica: Also, you're not oper... Even if you could do that all at 100% there's no way to operate 100%

Alisa: All the time

Erica: Under that, under that kind of circumstance, where...

Alisa: But I think, so, that's... that's interesting that you say that because we say that that's 100%. But what you, when you, when I think about 100% like, it's not... This isn't a sprint. This is a marathon, right? So, you're having to... I can definitely do a sprint at 100% energy exertion for a short burst. That's my acute stressor. You know that's coming in. I'm gonna do an all-nighter. I'm gonna get this presentation out, or I'm gonna, you know, fix, you know, whatever it is. But the, the enduring kind of chronic stress, you can't. You can't live that same way. And right now, the entire world is under additional chronic stress with what's going on. So how do you, you know, how do you deal with that? Yeah, So I think having that routine of "I'm gonna eat good every day, not eat any chocolate, not eat any doughnuts, exercise every day, speak to... finish all my work, inbox zero." That was lofty. Ah, and what I ended up doing was realizing that my routine needed to have, um needed to have days where I, you know, worked hard. But I also had rest days, you know, I wasn't... I didn't ever aim to work out every day. I'd work out two days and then be off one day and then work out two days and be off one day and work out doesn't necessarily mean two hours in a gym. It meant right. I'm gonna get X amount of steps, and that's it. Um, and then there's certain days that I said, right, I'm gonna, I'm gonna be watching TV. I'm gonna watch TV. I'm gonna watch trash reality TV just to let my mind not, you know, worry about all the things that are going on.  

Erica: I think that that kind of structure is really important because so many of us feel guilty or feel like we're just distracting ourselves with that relaxation period. So if you find cooking to be relaxing or if you find playing a video game to be relaxing or just surfing the Internet to be whatever it is that you find relaxing, that needs to be reinvigorating you during these times, like those, those activities are valuable. And if you cannot do that without guilt, because you think like "Oh, I should be doing something else right now, I should be writing this opus," you know, we're in... we're being quarantined. So therefore, I have to, you know, create all these whatever Pinterest projects. And they have to be perfect. And my kids have to be perfectly educated and all these goals and you don't block in any real rejuvenating time, then when you do get those little breaks, sometimes it's not actually rejuvenating. You end up feeling guilty like you should be doing something else. So, I think structure is great and that structure needs to build in the downtime as well.

Alisa: I think that you made a good point about the rejuvenating activities. Right, so there's times that I would find where I would just spend an hour on Facebook or I would spend an hour on Instagram, and that was a time draw. But it wasn't rejuvenating for me, and I had to... it took me a little while to realize what are my rejuvenating activities? And those are the ones that I should actually invest, invest in

Erica: and see it as an investment. And, yeah, it's not a waste. It is. It's actually an investment that pays returns

Alisa: that's going to allow me to perform better on those.  

Erica: Yeah, on the other activities.  

Alisa: Yeah, but I did have to limit, like, the things that I just felt were, you know, were wasteful cause I get, I mean even now, like I could spend three hours just flipping through random things on Facebook or on the Internet.  

Erica: And do you feel better afterwards?

Alisa: No, I don't.

Erica: If you did, then that's fine. No shame on flipping through Facebook.  

Alisa: Exactly.  

Erica: Great.

Alisa: Yeah, if you did, it's fine. But that's the, that's a bit about understanding yourself, understanding how you feel. You need to know what caused, like, so this is gonna be totally nerdy, and I will share this to you. Ah, and to the, uh, web listeners. Um, one of the things that I find relaxing is I can mess with Excel if I'm messing with, like an Excel spreadsheet.  

Erica: Yes, you are an engineer.

Alisa: I know. I know, right? If I'm messing with an Excel spreadsheet, I do find that, like, oddly relaxing. That's really weird. Maybe...

Erica: We're not gonna shame engineering enthusiasm here.

Alisa: That's true. Anyways, I find that relaxing so I could sit there and, like, mess with that for two hours and then come out and be like, you know, rejuvenated. It's all about just understanding what those things are for you. Cooking is another one for me. I really like cooking. So, um, I find, uh, finding new recipes looking online for different things and then trying em out. I find that to be really relaxing.

Erica: Yeah. I share your enthusiasm about cooking. That is definitely relaxing for me. And yet so many people I know, if I gave them a recipe to execute, they would not find that relaxing. That would be a stressor for them. Right? And maybe that's one of the challenging things right now that we're separated from each other and from our networks is that previously, if there was something that was really stressing me out that I wasn't very good at, I could sort of trade with somebody on that, I could say like, "Hey, can..." I could outsource it. I could either hire somebody to do it or I could barter, you know, um, and now that's becoming more and more difficult. So, there are things that we're having to do for ourselves, like cut our own hair, which is...

Alisa: Very difficult.  

Erica: Difficult. Yeah... And so  

Alisa: Or you could just do like me. I'm not cutting my hair and not dying my hair.

Erica: I'm growing out a pixie cut with hats, so...  

Alisa: We're good?  

Erica: Yeah. So that's the key, though, right? It's figuring out what you can let go of, and there are things that are, we just need to have some self-forgiveness, I think, and some self-compassion during this time. We won't get everything done and the stuff we do get done, it might not be perfect.

Alisa: Absolutely. I think not just during this time, though, like, right now, yes, especially important because everybody's under more chronic stress than normal, but I think also we are so hard. And we just in general, general, we, people are so hard on themselves and you're, you know, constantly trying to, you know, improve this, or do this, self-help book on this, you know, keeping up with the Joneses. Or you know what, whatever it is, the promotion at work. Um, we're very, people are just very hard on themselves. And we do need to, you know, give ourselves a break.

Erica: Yeah, maybe that's ah, that's some lessons we can carry through after this: hand washing and self-compassion. Two things we need to not stop doing when Corona virus passes.  

Alisa: Oh my gosh, I know, I totally... the amount of times that I wash my hands now! I think we should have been doing this before.  

Erica: Well yeah.  

Alisa: Um, that much... Um, but my hands are super dry now, but it's OK. Going to keep washing

Erica: Also need to moisturize... So, uh, we've talked about sort of recognition. We've talked about adding structure. What are some of the other tactics that you find are helpful with managing say chronic stress?

Alisa: I find that there's a, that there's certain folks that really rejuvenate me. Um, certain people that I've been friends with forever, I have really good relationships with. And, ah, when I talked to them, um, we totally get each other and, and we help each other. Um ah, lot of my friends... I moved around the world a lot and ah, a lot of my friends are very, uh, easy to, um just pick up the phone and you don't have to... Yeah, maybe I haven't talked to you in a year, but when we do talk, it's just like we, you know, saw each other yesterday, so that is really nice. And I do find that I have to... that having those relationships and having those trusted people and making time for those trusted people, um helps me calm down. It makes, it gives me perspective in a world that's going crazy. Um, because, you know, I care about them they care about me. We help each other. Just that. Just that emotional support I find really kind of, Earth... You know grounds me, um, and is helpful.  

Erica: Yeah, that raises a good point about support networks. I really feel right now for the people who... You know, you and I have both worked offshore, where for weeks on end you are on this kind of postage stamp of a facility you can't leave. The only way out is on a boat or a helicopter, and you're not with people that you chose to be with, you're with people that are your colleagues. And sometimes those colleagues are great, and you have great relationships. Sometimes not. Um, but regardless, they're not your loved ones, and you didn't choose to be with them. So right now, I really feel for people who are either, um isolated and don't have those connections or people who are quarantining with individuals who either they have not chosen to be with or, they've chosen it but it's not a healthy relationship. You know, we're seeing rates of domestic violence just skyrocket right now, and people that are quarantined with abusers. Um, so, for people who don't have an escape or don't have that external network, we want to encourage them to reach out to the resource is that are available. There are crisis lines. There are, there are help resources for those who maybe don't have somebody to talk to you. So, yeah. Thank you for sharing your insights with us today on, um, chronic stress in confined environments, and what that looks like, how to identify it, and maybe someone used to deal with it. Do you have any, kind of parting thoughts?

Alisa: I do have one other way that, um I handle stress in confinement. Um, and it's trying to gamify things.  

Erica: Yeah, I used to do that...  

Alisa: Yeah. I mean, I know there's a lot of people who aren't, you know, I mean, I'm confined by myself with two dogs, and, you know, I know other folks are with their, you know, spouses or their children or their you know, grandparents or their relatives. Some are with their coworkers offshore, there you know, there's all sorts of people that are confined? Yeah, all sorts of arrangements. But however you can, like, make, try to make something fun out of what you're doing. Even if you're making little games for your dogs like I'm doing, which cracks me up, I'm not sure they find it amusing.  

Erica: Yeah, I mean, it might be that doing the dishes is like your 100-point task for the day, you know, and giving yourself that reward - I think that's... that's important. Sometimes we just assume that doing the dishes or shampooing your hair today is it's just kind of table stakes. And in reality, maybe times are tough and like our, our whole schedule and cadence has kind of gone out the door. So just give yourself credit for those things, whether you do it in an Excel spreadsheet like I used to do. Maybe not for shampooing my hair, but, you know, like I used to give different activities different points, Um, or if you do it with stickers or gold stars or whatever it is, those little games can kind of ... 

Alisa: Make a difference  

Erica: Make the wins more visible and not get taken for granted. Yeah,  

Alisa: Absolutely  

Erica: So. So one kind of similarity I noticed, interested in your thoughts on, between offshore and this current situation is that it, it's been pretty disruptive to just sort of physiological cycles. You know, biological cycles, like sleeping, eating. We kind of can eat at any time. I don't know how often I've looked at the clock and been like. Oh, no, I've missed lunch entirely.  

Alisa: Or me where I need to social distance from the refrigerator because I have a snack every hour.

Erica: Yeah, or just sleeping. I know so many people with, um, sort of not getting as much sunlight have really had disruptions to their sleep. So they're their circadian rhythm gets thrown off. They're, like, staying up all night, sleeping all day or, um, or just not sleeping because they're stressed or they're sleeping too much because they have more flexibility in their schedule. They don't have somewhere to be. And that can really have an impact. So, um, do you have any advice on how you've handled that when you were offshore?

Alisa: Absolutely well, so the food thing I stayed I personally still struggle with cause I go to the refrigerator every hour or a snack. But offshore I didn't have that issue because we had set mealtimes. Um, in terms of the sleep pattern, though, I do find similarities between offshore and what's going on right now. I, um there you're getting up earlier. Working long hours. I would end up working out after, I'd, you know, after a workday. So, then I wasn't tired. And then I struggled to go to sleep, and then I had to get up earlier and that I was even more tired. Yeah. So, um, I you know what I would do is work out a little bit earlier, then eat dinner, and then try to do it. I did find screen time, looking at your phone or the TV or the computer right before you're gonna, right before you go to bed, I mean, they, lots of folks, you know, say that, but I definitely find that if I don't look at the screen before I go to bed, it's easier for me to go to sleep. I never could take any kind of Tylenol PM or anything like that offshore because you have to be alert. You wake up at 2 am. Exactly. So, I never did any of that. But I did find that at least if I shut my devices down If I start reading, um, you know, I'll read and then I'll usually end of falling asleep. And I've been doing the same thing here, right? Not watching TV. I mean, I watch TV, but then I'll go to bed and read a little bit. Don't go straight from TV to screen toe bed.

Erica: Yeah, I've had to set, like a "go to bed alarm" that just starts the process of going to bed.  

Alisa: Yeah, I've got one of those.  

Erica: I think sunlight for whoever can get some sunlight, even if you can't go outside for a walk, you know, just sitting by a window during lunch or just some way to get your brain to sync with the sunlight. And this is for people who are working day shift. Anyone who's working night shifts, somehow... that brings its own challenges. But there's SAD lights available, you know, these full spectrum lights are available. I have one of my office. So when I know I have to do early morning calls, I set the light and, um and that really helps me, but definitely putting some structure in. I think we take it for take it for granted sometimes until kind of schedule is all sorts of messed up. And that has an impact, you know, the sleep deprivation, the like, food... waiting till you're hangry until you finally, like, go get something to eat that can really take a toll as well. And it just amplifies those emotions.

Alisa: Yeah, I totally agree. I don't have a sun light. I uh, I've seen them before. Um, try one of those. I do find also, I just having lived in Alaska for so long, I, um, have now for the last couple of years, I take a lot of vitamin D. Um, even when, uh, yeah, I Even when I do get son, I still take vitamin D. I just find that I was deficient, definitely for the multiple years I was in Alaska. So now I, um, get a lot of benefit from that.

Erica: Vitamin D and vitamin B or the two that I, um, that I found really help me offshore, and I kind of have cut back on them right now, but, um, when I'm not getting enough sunlight I definitely think vitamin D, and vitamin B for me, were really helpful. So that kind of wraps our discussion on stress and chronic stress in confined environments. Is there anything else you wanted to share?

Alisa: Um, just to say thank you. This was very interesting. I've listened all your podcast so far. So, um, I know there's been four, and this is the fifth but very excited to see the future of the Two Piers podcasting and thanks for having me on, and I am just, I know this is crazy times in the world, and it's crazy times for everybody, and I do find that I just get randomly emotional. Um, and I imagine everybody else is going through that, too, so I know we're not going through that alone, um, and it's good to be able to talk about the things that we do to help us get through those times.

Erica: Well, thank you for being my first guest and for bearing with us as we sort out the technical challenges of doing this in the time of social distancing, um, so we appreciate it, and we can't wait to have you back for another podcast at some point in the future.  

Alisa: Fantastic. Thank you.  

Erica: Thanks. So, and as always, you can find us on the various social media platforms. So we're on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram and Lincoln, and you can see what we're all about on our website at www.twopiersconsulting.com. So, if you think you could use support in your work environment or if your company is looking to improve diversity and inclusion, please reach out to us, schedule a free consultation and we'll be able to help you. And as far as the podcast goes, please leave us a rating. Leave us a review and tell us what you think or reach out directly. We'd love to get your feedback, so we'll see you back here shortly for the next podcast.