This week, we invite our first guest to join us in discussing stress in times of confinement. Alisa Tijerina helps us explore experiences and observations related to recognizing and managing stress when we can't leave the house, (or our workplace).

We’ve included a transcript of our conversation below:

Erica: Hello and welcome to the Two Piers Podcast, Season One, Episode Five. I'm your host, Erica D'Eramo, and today we will be talking about stress. We also have our first guest today, which, with social distancing, has been a technological challenge, but we're making it work. So, joining us is Alisa Tijerina. Welcome, Alisa!

Alisa: Hi, Erica. Thank you. Happy to be here.

Erica: So, Alisa has some experience with stress, and particularly stress in the, uh, in a confined environment. So, yeah, Alisa, do you wanna tell us a little bit about yourself?

Alisa: Um, yeah. So, I have worked in oil and gas for multiple years now too many to even count. Um, and I've lived all over the world and have worked in confined spaces. I've worked on an offshore, oil rig, and I've worked in the middle of the desert. I've worked in the Arctic. So, lots of confined spaces, high hazard industry, and, of course, lots of stress.

Erica: Yes. So great opportunity to contribute to contribute to this podcast. So April is stress Awareness Month and we thought it would be appropriate to discuss stress in the context of confinement as much of the world right now is still under a stay at home order and will likely be for some time in the future. So, in this podcast, today will be sharing our experiences between Alisa and myself and what has worked for us, and what has worked for some other folks as well so that you can potentially find some gems that you can utilize.

Alisa: And of course, we will share the things that have failed for us as well because there's been a lot of that.

Erica: Yes - "what does not work." But a caveat here: so, we are not psychologists, and we can only share our lived experiences, and some other resource is that we found that will hopefully be of use to you. So, what is stress? And is it bad? Kind of, this is, this is a fundamental question. So, Medline is a site hosted by the National Institute of Health, and it's, it's really helpful. It provides a definition for us of stress. So, stress, as defined by them, is a feeling of emotional or physical tension. It can come from any event or thought that makes you feel frustrated, angry or nervous. Stress is your body's reaction to a challenge or demand. In short bursts, stress can be positive, such as when it helps you avoid danger or meet a deadline. But when stress lasts for a long time, it may cause harm to your health. So, Alisa, how do you feel about that definition?

Alisa: Makes sense! Yeah, totally makes sense. I, uh, I like the positive stress. I like the adrenaline of the short burst. And I do definitely think that it makes me, um, perform better, under stress, but as long as it's in the short burst time frame. No, I really do - I thrive on that. I mean, that's like the, that's the adrenaline rush. That's the, "I've got a deadline. We're gonna you know, we're gonna stay up. We're gonna do this! We're gonna finish it. It's gonna be awesome. We're gonna rock it." You know that. That's -that is, um you know, it's an upper. I feel like I perform well under those conditions.

Erica: Yea, I mean, that's how, like, that's how amusement parks and carnivals make their money, right? Because I know that at a certain point, humans do like that kind of, um, short burst of adrenaline, which is stress.

Alisa: Absolutely. But the thing about amusement parks is that, you know, that ride's gonna end, right? So, you're not gonna be... I think I would be... I would have chronic stress if I knew I was going on a roller coaster for 10 years or whatever it was that would be horrible. But for that two minutes, "Great! I'm on it. Yes - let me right again."

Erica: And, of course, there's an element to that of control, and it's our choice, and our agency hasn't been taken away,

Alisa: ...and we're confident that it will end, and we will be back, yeah, back on our feet and able to eat a funnel cake.

Erica: Yeah, but today we'll be primarily talking about chronic stress, right? Chronic stress is the opposite of that. So that's the one where we do not have an end date to it. It's not associated with a specific event. It doesn't, like, peak and then pass. Chronic stress is just sort of that noise that exists in the background. And we know that chronic stress has all sorts of implications to it. And those can be physical. They can be health related. It could be high blood pressure, heart disease. There's all sorts of health related issues connected to chronic stress, but it can also be relational. It can take a toll on our relationships. It can take a toll on our performance, our careers, etcetera... Do you have any examples of how chronic stress...

Alisa: ...has affected me? Yeah. Um, well, I would say that it took me a while to even recognize chronic stress because I thought that was just my normal. I thought, you know, I'm gonna in this intense job. I am in a job where I'm accountable for people's lives. Um, I'm the one who has to be strong for everybody. It's just it's a high stress job. Or, you know, you know, I had those experiences, and I just, I just thought that that was my normal. I didn't actually associate it with stress. I associate it with, "I have a high level of stress tolerance because I'm in a demanding job." Um, and I'm in a... and I'm essentially in a box in the ocean having to manage this demanding job. Um, so that's, you know, that confinement on top of a demanding job, you know, is it - you know, it's just, it's additive, so it's even an additional stress. It took me a while to realize that even that, that normal of a demanding job, that kind of, you know, my normal day of a demanding job was still causing stress, you know, on me. And that was the chronic stress. And when I thought I was fine; I was actually experiencing a lot of stress.

Erica: Yeah, like very high levels. Yeah. So, I want to explore a few things there. First of all, um, this idea that we - we're almost like frogs in boiling water sometimes, right? We don't - we don't even recognize the amount of stress that we're under until either it's alleviated, perhaps, and we realize, like, "Whoa, I just let this way off my shoulders." Or... until, unfortunately, something happens, so, you know, we have, like, a heart attack, or we, um we snap at somebody that we love or we make some sort of mistake or oversight that, that costs us in some way or hurt somebody else. So, what were some of the ways that you found to recognize when you were under this level of stress that had sort of become normalized to you?

Alisa: Hmmm. Good question. The analogy you used with the frog in the boiling water? I think that just hits the nail on the head. Right? So, if you think about just kind of going back to that analogy putting the frog directly in boiling water, that's the acute stress, putting it in the cold water and then boiling it. That's the chronic stress. I mean, that's a that is, seriously, a perfect analogy.

Erica: So how are some ways that you identify when you are feeling or when you're experiencing chronic stress? Because if, if you're anything like me, it takes something to, like, put the light bulb on that, "Oh. Oh no. I am stressed! And I've probably been operating under, like, a huge amount of stress for a while now."

Alisa: Absolutely. So, I...

Erica: Is it, like, physical? Is it relational? Is an emotional? What is it for you?

Alisa: So, there's... Yeah. So, all three. Yes, yes, yes. Um, but first of all, I would say that it took me years to figure this out, and it was not all of a sudden that I was like, "Oh, this is how I feel." And, "Oh, I'm stressed." No, no, no. I mean, we're talking like 15... like not not even like, one year, two years... I mean, 15 years

Erica: In your career, as an adult...

Alisa: In my career as an adult to figure this out. Um, which I mean, I consider myself pretty smart and 15 years to learn something...

Erica: Yeah, and accomplished

Alisa: 15 years to learn something? Oh, my God. Like that's a long time. Um, personally, I get - I hold stress in my stomach, and I've known that since I was a kid. Um, you know, anxiety and stress. I feel it in my stomach. I end up, um, you know, having a stomachache, or I feel like after the bathroom, but I don't really. You know that, that that kind of physical reaction, I definitely have. I do find my heart beats faster. Um, I get colder. You know those are kind of easy physical tell tales. Um, emotional: I find that if I have chronic stress, things that normally wouldn't bother me are bothering me. I find that I'll snap at my mom at something that she's, you know, done my entire life. But, you know, today it's bothering me and that that's a bit of a trigger.

Erica: Yeah, those all make sense. I think for me, I tend to tense my shoulders up and so I'll get like an aching pain in my left shoulder, and that's an indicator to me that I'm chronically stressed. Or like tension headaches are another one, um, and my blood pressure goes up when I normally have very low blood pressure. But when I am under stress, that's definitely a quick, easy measure for me to tell that something is wrong. And I agree completely - I think, like, the other week we had so many different things that were going on and really some, some tragedy that I hadn't probably dealt with enough. And so, something tiny, like a LinkedIn post that was a misattribution of, you know, somebody's like poetry just kind of put me into a meltdown, and I thought, "Oh, this is a... This is a gift. This is an indicator that I am clearly stressed right now because something this small doesn't really matter in the grand scheme."

Alisa: That's really, um, interesting that you say that because that, that really... If you tie into what's going on in the world right now with Corona virus, um, and people working from home and you know, people getting sick and, um, confinement. All of that, uh, is an added stressor.

Erica: Yeah. So, in the time of Corona virus, I think where we are all dealing with various levels of anxiety, various levels of grief, even those of us who haven't lost a loved one, um, we're grieving, you know, maybe the loss of a job? Grieving the loss of opportunity or a future that we had pictured for ourselves that now doesn't look like that will happen. Um, or the loss of, you know just are normal. Normal is kind of gone for a little bit. We'll have a new normal, but we're just not there yet. So, there's some grief involved in that. And in a context like this, where all of those stressors are piling up on each other, it just feels a bit like a... like a boiler room. You know, it feels a bit like under pressure, because there's no relief path.

Alisa: It's that frog in the in the pot of boiling water.

Erica: Yeah, so you know, there are different... I'm sure there's different ways that each of us respond to chronic stress and building that awareness is probably different for each person. Right? It sounds different between you and I what are indicators are for that. And, um, I think you've done quite a bit of yoga, right? Have you found that that's... has that been kind of a tool for you at all?

Alisa: Yoga has been good because it has helped me listen to my body.

Erica: Yeah, that makes sense.

Alisa: Like you were saying about your shoulders tensing...

Erica: Yeah...

Alisa: You know they're constantly telling you in yoga, you know, "relax your shoulders, relax your shoulders."

Erica: "Are you clenching your jaw?" And you're like, "Oh, wow..."

Alisa: Yeah, I am.

Erica: "I am clenching my jaw! Thank you." Yeah, you don't even realize it. For me, I had a similar experience with meditation. So, working offshore, it was meditation that gave me that brief kind of interlude where I could put the weight down. And then I realized how heavy the weight was when I went to go pick it back up again, which is, um, very helpful for understanding just how, uh, just how maxed out you are, I think.

Alisa: I've always struggled with mental meditation. Um, I keep trying, and over the last time, this last month with the Covid 19, I have. I've downloaded Headspace, and I've been doing that daily. Um, but I'm not anywhere as near where, you know, where you are, but yoga definitely makes a difference for me.

Erica: Do you find that that has given you any tools, that you apply?

Alisa: Absolutely. So, yoga has allowed me to, um, well, first of all, let me tell you my experience with yoga. I didn't like it. At all. When I first started it, you know, probably 20 years ago, more than that, because I felt like it wasn't a workout - it was just stretching. Um, and then I would have to...

Erica: People would tell me it's boring, and I think...

Alisa: Yeah, I would have to, I would have to do my stretching, my yoga, and then I would still have to go run or, you know, exercise or go lift weights or something. So, I never really thought it was a workout. Um, but over the years, I ended up rupturing and disc in my back playing tennis and did a lot of yoga for the recovery. And when I started doing that, I realized how beneficial it was for me, and then I was, was addicted to it after that, I do, um I mean, I don't do a whole lot of it now, but I'm pretty regular. Um, but I found that by doing yoga, it allows you, you know you learn how to listen to your body. You learn how to listen to, or figure out what hurts, how you're feeling. There's a lot of, um, you know, you're focusing on just that hour, that, “Now.”

Erica: Being present.

Alisa: Being present, putting all those other worries, all those other things that are going on in your life. You're, you know, dedicating that yoga practice too, uh, to you and to, you know, just, you know, your body. So, um, I have gotten a lot out of it.

Erica: Yeah, I think for me it's been beneficial on the mat, and I really benefit from that awareness off the mat that you start to think like, "Oh, I'm clenching my jaw." "Oh, I'm tensing my shoulders." Those little indicators that I might otherwise not be observant of or not even noticed because they're just part of my normal day to day. And for me meditation was a big part of that. Just having that 20 minutes to take the weight off my shoulders and put it down for a little bit. It then made me aware of how much I was carrying in the first place. Um, and then you can adjust, right? And during times like this, where we're all, we are all stressed to some extent or another, we can sort of dial back our expectations on performance a little bit. Maybe you are not gonna perform at 100%. Or we can expect to know to puts mitigations in place because we know that we'll snap it or mom or cry it that commercial or whatever it is that are, you know, however, it is that we express our stress.

Erica: So, we've talked a little bit about recognizing stress and how to understand when it is that we're stressed, because I don't think we can take that for granted. And I think that's one of the most important parts. But then there's also an element of how do we deal with chronic stress when we're in it? How do we mitigate it? So, what are your thoughts on that?

Alisa: So, my thoughts on how to deal with it... Um I mean, I've learned a lot of things. I've tried a lot of things over the years. I think one of the first things that's important is really to understand why you're feeling it and what kind of, what the actual root cause of that is. You know, why, you know, Are you feeling stressed or are you feeling anxious or are you feeling the way you're feeling because of, you know, because of Covid, because you're worried about your family because you're worried about your neighbors because there's something going on at your work? Um, what is it

Erica: …Or you don't have work?

Alisa: Maybe you don't have work?

Erica: Maybe you've been laid off.

Alisa: You know that there's all these stressors out in the world and I think understanding what that, what the root cause of that stressor is, is actually the first thing that you should do, because if you can name it, then you can, you can try to mitigate it?

Erica: Yeah, or even just address it and acknowledge it. I think that there's... there is some freedom in recognizing those things that we cannot mitigate right? That whole question of, once we know what the issue is stressing us out, is there something that we can do about it? If so, do it. And if not, if there's nothing you can do about it, then you can put that to the side for a period of time and, and observe. But understanding that there's nothing that you could do about it is kind of freeing in a way, sometimes,

Alisa: Yeah. I think that approaching the stress logically is really important. Because when we're stressed, your initial reaction is not, you're not necessarily thinking logically. Your emotions, you're feeling, you're feeling emotional, you're thinking, you could be thinking with your emotions. So, if you can approach it and try to, write it down, figure out what kind of what it is. You know, am I... I'm stressed because I've, um because I've lost my job. Um, and then you think, "Do I have an emergency fund?" "Do I have this or how can I? You know, how can I feed my family?" And if you can figure out ways to address those, uh, those things, then it, it helps you, um, at least you know you're addressing the thing that's you know, concerning, concerning you.

Erica: Yeah, there's been a lot published recently from kind of astronauts giving their thoughts on living with stress in isolation. And one of the things that Chris Hatfield recommends is, or one of the analogies he makes with being in space, and the current COVID crisis is that there's this, like, big, unspoken danger out there that's not clearly defined. It's just this kind of big, amorphous, frightening thing. Um, and so, you know, operating a rocket ship is like that. There's just this, there's always a constant elevated level of danger, and it's sort of nameless and quiet. And he compares that to Corona virus. And, to think, Corona virus, it's really, like, the current situations are hitting at every level of Maslow's hierarchy of needs, right? That that philosophy, that there are fundamental needs such as, you know our physical needs that need to be met and our psychological needs that need to be met and really every one of those right now, with Corona virus is, sort of, under threat. Physical needs, physical health. Um, our financial security our, just never mind psychological security. So, um

Alisa: So yeah, I think it's important to, you know, you said this big amorphous, frightening thing. Ah, so if you can name that identify, identifying it versus "Oh, my God, there's this big, amorphous, frightening thing"

Erica: In the closet.

Alisa: Yeah, if you could actually break that down even if you can't solve it or even if you can't mitigate it, you at least know what it is.

Erica: You can put a name to the boogeyman.

Alisa: You can put a name to the, exactly. You put a name to the boogeyman.

Erica: Yeah.

Alisa: And I think once you do that. And I think at least for me, that's always, that's been a good first step. Ah, and then the second step is trying to, um almost take your mind off of it, right? So you, you know, have a routine. You, uh, figure out what your, you know, maybe you want to eat healthy or you want to exercise or you need, um you know, you set up something where you can speak to your friends and to your family on a regular basis, you know, understanding what those things are out there that, um, you know, you personally need, like, like the hierarchy of needs, right? So what, what are certain things that I, that I need that'll make me feel better. Like when I worked offshore, I was offshore for, um, multiple weeks at a time. When I first started, it was, I had all these ambitious goals which were, "I'm gonna exercise every day. I'm gonna eat healthy. I'm not gonna go to... not gonna eat any doughnuts. I'm gonna work, you know? I'm gonna work. I gonna get all my work done, you know..."

Erica: You're going to write a book.

Alisa: “Inbox zero! I'm gonna, you know, all of these things." And those are my goals. And, you know, 1st, 1st trip out there fail, fail, fail, fail. Right? And that was a bit of a, bit of a downer. And then I realized that, you know, that was a bit of a ridiculous goal to have, you know, because the reality is "Do I need to do that?" No.

Erica: Also, you're not oper... Even if you could do that all at 100% there's no way to operate 100%

Alisa: All the time

Erica: Under that, under that kind of circumstance, where...

Alisa: But I think, so, that's... that's interesting that you say that because we say that that's 100%. But what you, when you, when I think about 100% like, it's not... This isn't a sprint. This is a marathon, right? So, you're having to... I can definitely do a sprint at 100% energy exertion for a short burst. That's my acute stressor. You know that's coming in. I'm gonna do an all-nighter. I'm gonna get this presentation out, or I'm gonna, you know, fix, you know, whatever it is. But the, the enduring kind of chronic stress, you can't. You can't live that same way. And right now, the entire world is under additional chronic stress with what's going on. So how do you, you know, how do you deal with that? Yeah, So I think having that routine of "I'm gonna eat good every day, not eat any chocolate, not eat any doughnuts, exercise every day, speak to... finish all my work, inbox zero." That was lofty. Ah, and what I ended up doing was realizing that my routine needed to have, um needed to have days where I, you know, worked hard. But I also had rest days, you know, I wasn't... I didn't ever aim to work out every day. I'd work out two days and then be off one day and then work out two days and be off one day and work out doesn't necessarily mean two hours in a gym. It meant right. I'm gonna get X amount of steps, and that's it. Um, and then there's certain days that I said, right, I'm gonna, I'm gonna be watching TV. I'm gonna watch TV. I'm gonna watch trash reality TV just to let my mind not, you know, worry about all the things that are going on.

Erica: I think that that kind of structure is really important because so many of us feel guilty or feel like we're just distracting ourselves with that relaxation period. So if you find cooking to be relaxing or if you find playing a video game to be relaxing or just surfing the Internet to be whatever it is that you find relaxing, that needs to be reinvigorating you during these times, like those, those activities are valuable. And if you cannot do that without guilt, because you think like "Oh, I should be doing something else right now, I should be writing this opus," you know, we're in... we're being quarantined. So therefore, I have to, you know, create all these whatever Pinterest projects. And they have to be perfect. And my kids have to be perfectly educated and all these goals and you don't block in any real rejuvenating time, then when you do get those little breaks, sometimes it's not actually rejuvenating. You end up feeling guilty like you should be doing something else. So, I think structure is great and that structure needs to build in the downtime as well.

Alisa: I think that you made a good point about the rejuvenating activities. Right, so there's times that I would find where I would just spend an hour on Facebook or I would spend an hour on Instagram, and that was a time draw. But it wasn't rejuvenating for me, and I had to... it took me a little while to realize what are my rejuvenating activities? And those are the ones that I should actually invest, invest in

Erica: and see it as an investment. And, yeah, it's not a waste. It is. It's actually an investment that pays returns

Alisa: that's going to allow me to perform better on those.

Erica: Yeah, on the other activities.

Alisa: Yeah, but I did have to limit, like, the things that I just felt were, you know, were wasteful cause I get, I mean even now, like I could spend three hours just flipping through random things on Facebook or on the Internet.

Erica: And do you feel better afterwards?

Alisa: No, I don't.

Erica: If you did, then that's fine. No shame on flipping through Facebook.

Alisa: Exactly.

Erica: Great.

Alisa: Yeah, if you did, it's fine. But that's the, that's a bit about understanding yourself, understanding how you feel. You need to know what caused, like, so this is gonna be totally nerdy, and I will share this to you. Ah, and to the, uh, web listeners. Um, one of the things that I find relaxing is I can mess with Excel if I'm messing with, like an Excel spreadsheet.

Erica: Yes, you are an engineer.

Alisa: I know. I know, right? If I'm messing with an Excel spreadsheet, I do find that, like, oddly relaxing. That's really weird. Maybe...

Erica: We're not gonna shame engineering enthusiasm here.

Alisa: That's true. Anyways, I find that relaxing so I could sit there and, like, mess with that for two hours and then come out and be like, you know, rejuvenated. It's all about just understanding what those things are for you. Cooking is another one for me. I really like cooking. So, um, I find, uh, finding new recipes looking online for different things and then trying em out. I find that to be really relaxing.

Erica: Yeah. I share your enthusiasm about cooking. That is definitely relaxing for me. And yet so many people I know, if I gave them a recipe to execute, they would not find that relaxing. That would be a stressor for them. Right? And maybe that's one of the challenging things right now that we're separated from each other and from our networks is that previously, if there was something that was really stressing me out that I wasn't very good at, I could sort of trade with somebody on that, I could say like, "Hey, can..." I could outsource it. I could either hire somebody to do it or I could barter, you know, um, and now that's becoming more and more difficult. So, there are things that we're having to do for ourselves, like cut our own hair, which is...

Alisa: Very difficult.

Erica: Difficult. Yeah... And so

Alisa: Or you could just do like me. I'm not cutting my hair and not dying my hair.

Erica: I'm growing out a pixie cut with hats, so...

Alisa: We're good?

Erica: Yeah. So that's the key, though, right? It's figuring out what you can let go of, and there are things that are, we just need to have some self-forgiveness, I think, and some self-compassion during this time. We won't get everything done and the stuff we do get done, it might not be perfect.

Alisa: Absolutely. I think not just during this time, though, like, right now, yes, especially important because everybody's under more chronic stress than normal, but I think also we are so hard. And we just in general, general, we, people are so hard on themselves and you're, you know, constantly trying to, you know, improve this, or do this, self-help book on this, you know, keeping up with the Joneses. Or you know what, whatever it is, the promotion at work. Um, we're very, people are just very hard on themselves. And we do need to, you know, give ourselves a break.

Erica: Yeah, maybe that's ah, that's some lessons we can carry through after this: hand washing and self-compassion. Two things we need to not stop doing when Corona virus passes.

Alisa: Oh my gosh, I know, I totally... the amount of times that I wash my hands now! I think we should have been doing this before.

Erica: Well yeah.

Alisa: Um, that much... Um, but my hands are super dry now, but it's OK. Going to keep washing

Erica: Also need to moisturize... So, uh, we've talked about sort of recognition. We've talked about adding structure. What are some of the other tactics that you find are helpful with managing say chronic stress?

Alisa: I find that there's a, that there's certain folks that really rejuvenate me. Um, certain people that I've been friends with forever, I have really good relationships with. And, ah, when I talked to them, um, we totally get each other and, and we help each other. Um ah, lot of my friends... I moved around the world a lot and ah, a lot of my friends are very, uh, easy to, um just pick up the phone and you don't have to... Yeah, maybe I haven't talked to you in a year, but when we do talk, it's just like we, you know, saw each other yesterday, so that is really nice. And I do find that I have to... that having those relationships and having those trusted people and making time for those trusted people, um helps me calm down. It makes, it gives me perspective in a world that's going crazy. Um, because, you know, I care about them they care about me. We help each other. Just that. Just that emotional support I find really kind of, Earth... You know grounds me, um, and is helpful.

Erica: Yeah, that raises a good point about support networks. I really feel right now for the people who... You know, you and I have both worked offshore, where for weeks on end you are on this kind of postage stamp of a facility you can't leave. The only way out is on a boat or a helicopter, and you're not with people that you chose to be with, you're with people that are your colleagues. And sometimes those colleagues are great, and you have great relationships. Sometimes not. Um, but regardless, they're not your loved ones, and you didn't choose to be with them. So right now, I really feel for people who are either, um isolated and don't have those connections or people who are quarantining with individuals who either they have not chosen to be with or, they've chosen it but it's not a healthy relationship. You know, we're seeing rates of domestic violence just skyrocket right now, and people that are quarantined with abusers. Um, so, for people who don't have an escape or don't have that external network, we want to encourage them to reach out to the resource is that are available. There are crisis lines. There are, there are help resources for those who maybe don't have somebody to talk to you. So, yeah. Thank you for sharing your insights with us today on, um, chronic stress in confined environments, and what that looks like, how to identify it, and maybe someone used to deal with it. Do you have any, kind of parting thoughts?

Alisa: I do have one other way that, um I handle stress in confinement. Um, and it's trying to gamify things.

Erica: Yeah, I used to do that...

Alisa: Yeah. I mean, I know there's a lot of people who aren't, you know, I mean, I'm confined by myself with two dogs, and, you know, I know other folks are with their, you know, spouses or their children or their you know, grandparents or their relatives. Some are with their coworkers offshore, there you know, there's all sorts of people that are confined? Yeah, all sorts of arrangements. But however you can, like, make, try to make something fun out of what you're doing. Even if you're making little games for your dogs like I'm doing, which cracks me up, I'm not sure they find it amusing.

Erica: Yeah, I mean, it might be that doing the dishes is like your 100-point task for the day, you know, and giving yourself that reward - I think that's... that's important. Sometimes we just assume that doing the dishes or shampooing your hair today is it's just kind of table stakes. And in reality, maybe times are tough and like our, our whole schedule and cadence has kind of gone out the door. So just give yourself credit for those things, whether you do it in an Excel spreadsheet like I used to do. Maybe not for shampooing my hair, but, you know, like I used to give different activities different points, Um, or if you do it with stickers or gold stars or whatever it is, those little games can kind of ...

Alisa: Make a difference

Erica: Make the wins more visible and not get taken for granted. Yeah,

Alisa: Absolutely

Erica: So. So one kind of similarity I noticed, interested in your thoughts on, between offshore and this current situation is that it, it's been pretty disruptive to just sort of physiological cycles. You know, biological cycles, like sleeping, eating. We kind of can eat at any time. I don't know how often I've looked at the clock and been like. Oh, no, I've missed lunch entirely.

Alisa: Or me where I need to social distance from the refrigerator because I have a snack every hour.

Erica: Yeah, or just sleeping. I know so many people with, um, sort of not getting as much sunlight have really had disruptions to their sleep. So they're their circadian rhythm gets thrown off. They're, like, staying up all night, sleeping all day or, um, or just not sleeping because they're stressed or they're sleeping too much because they have more flexibility in their schedule. They don't have somewhere to be. And that can really have an impact. So, um, do you have any advice on how you've handled that when you were offshore?

Alisa: Absolutely well, so the food thing I stayed I personally still struggle with cause I go to the refrigerator every hour or a snack. But offshore I didn't have that issue because we had set mealtimes. Um, in terms of the sleep pattern, though, I do find similarities between offshore and what's going on right now. I, um there you're getting up earlier. Working long hours. I would end up working out after, I'd, you know, after a workday. So, then I wasn't tired. And then I struggled to go to sleep, and then I had to get up earlier and that I was even more tired. Yeah. So, um, I you know what I would do is work out a little bit earlier, then eat dinner, and then try to do it. I did find screen time, looking at your phone or the TV or the computer right before you're gonna, right before you go to bed, I mean, they, lots of folks, you know, say that, but I definitely find that if I don't look at the screen before I go to bed, it's easier for me to go to sleep. I never could take any kind of Tylenol PM or anything like that offshore because you have to be alert. You wake up at 2 am. Exactly. So, I never did any of that. But I did find that at least if I shut my devices down If I start reading, um, you know, I'll read and then I'll usually end of falling asleep. And I've been doing the same thing here, right? Not watching TV. I mean, I watch TV, but then I'll go to bed and read a little bit. Don't go straight from TV to screen toe bed.

Erica: Yeah, I've had to set, like a "go to bed alarm" that just starts the process of going to bed.

Alisa: Yeah, I've got one of those.

Erica: I think sunlight for whoever can get some sunlight, even if you can't go outside for a walk, you know, just sitting by a window during lunch or just some way to get your brain to sync with the sunlight. And this is for people who are working day shift. Anyone who's working night shifts, somehow... that brings its own challenges. But there's SAD lights available, you know, these full spectrum lights are available. I have one of my office. So when I know I have to do early morning calls, I set the light and, um and that really helps me, but definitely putting some structure in. I think we take it for take it for granted sometimes until kind of schedule is all sorts of messed up. And that has an impact, you know, the sleep deprivation, the like, food... waiting till you're hangry until you finally, like, go get something to eat that can really take a toll as well. And it just amplifies those emotions.

Alisa: Yeah, I totally agree. I don't have a sun light. I uh, I've seen them before. Um, try one of those. I do find also, I just having lived in Alaska for so long, I, um, have now for the last couple of years, I take a lot of vitamin D. Um, even when, uh, yeah, I Even when I do get son, I still take vitamin D. I just find that I was deficient, definitely for the multiple years I was in Alaska. So now I, um, get a lot of benefit from that.

Erica: Vitamin D and vitamin B or the two that I, um, that I found really help me offshore, and I kind of have cut back on them right now, but, um, when I'm not getting enough sunlight I definitely think vitamin D, and vitamin B for me, were really helpful. So that kind of wraps our discussion on stress and chronic stress in confined environments. Is there anything else you wanted to share?

Alisa: Um, just to say thank you. This was very interesting. I've listened all your podcast so far. So, um, I know there's been four, and this is the fifth but very excited to see the future of the Two Piers podcasting and thanks for having me on, and I am just, I know this is crazy times in the world, and it's crazy times for everybody, and I do find that I just get randomly emotional. Um, and I imagine everybody else is going through that, too, so I know we're not going through that alone, um, and it's good to be able to talk about the things that we do to help us get through those times.

Erica: Well, thank you for being my first guest and for bearing with us as we sort out the technical challenges of doing this in the time of social distancing, um, so we appreciate it, and we can't wait to have you back for another podcast at some point in the future.

Alisa: Fantastic. Thank you.

Erica: Thanks. So, and as always, you can find us on the various social media platforms. So we're on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram and Lincoln, and you can see what we're all about on our website at www.twopiersconsulting.com. So, if you think you could use support in your work environment or if your company is looking to improve diversity and inclusion, please reach out to us, schedule a free consultation and we'll be able to help you. And as far as the podcast goes, please leave us a rating. Leave us a review and tell us what you think or reach out directly. We'd love to get your feedback, so we'll see you back here shortly for the next podcast.