The Rooted Renegade - with Rebecca Arnold, JD, CPCC, PCC

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Rebecca Arnold is a professional, certified coach and the founder of Root Coaching & Consulting, LLC, a holistic leadership coaching firm. She’s also the author of The Rooted Renegade: Transform Within, Disrupt the Status Quo & Unleash Your Legacy (Greenleaf Book Group, June 10, 2024). The book is part call to action, part roadmap, and part step-by-step guide to creating a joyful, harmonious life that meets the challenges of our times. 

Her clients are mission-driven leaders seeking holistic success in the fields of education, medicine, law, academia, and social-impact organizations. An attorney by training, Rebecca has a background in education policy. 

But more importantly, she’s known as a “straight-talkin’, big-hearted” coach. In addition, Rebecca is a dog mom, a human mom, and a spunky wife. 

She was a Presidential Management Fellow at the US Department of Education and a special assistant to the Assistant Secretary for Career, Technical, and Adult Education. In those positions, she focused on reform initiatives for high schools and community colleges. She has worked with numerous social-impact organizations in the education and social justice arenas. She holds a JD from Northeastern University and a BA from Brown University.

The Rooted Renegade

Introduction

In this enlightening podcast episode, we delve into the realm of personal growth and leadership development with Rebecca Arnold, a seasoned professional certified coach and author. Through her captivating origin story and insightful discussions, Rebecca sheds light on the transformative power of reconnecting with our inner selves to create systemic change in both our professional and personal lives.

Rebecca Arnold's Journey

Rebecca Arnold kickstarts the conversation by narrating her journey from being a burned-out professional in the policy realm to finding her true calling as a coach. Drawing from her psychology roots, she shares how embracing her passion for coaching has not only revitalized her own career but also empowered her to guide others towards fulfillment and success.

Discovering Rooted Peace

Central to Rebecca's philosophy is the concept of rooted peace—a three-part framework for nurturing well-being in mind, body, and heart. Through her work, she advocates for a holistic approach to success, one that transcends mere external achievements and aligns with our inner values and desires.

Prioritizing Well-being and Intuition

Rebecca delves into the complexities of prioritizing well-being and intuition over external validation, challenging societal norms that glorify titles and monetary gains. Alongside Erica D'Eramo, she explores the profound impact of acknowledging mortality and realigning our life goals to foster genuine fulfillment and purpose.

Cultivating Emotional Intelligence in Toxic Environments

Navigating toxic work environments can take a toll on our emotional well-being. Rebecca emphasizes the importance of practices like mindfulness and gratitude in counteracting negativity and enhancing resilience. By fostering self-awareness and empathy, individuals can cultivate emotional intelligence even in the most challenging of circumstances.

Harnessing Emotional Awareness for Stress Management

Rebecca and Erica delve into the significance of emotional granularity—a nuanced understanding of our emotions—and its role in stress management. By honing our ability to identify and process emotions, we can unlock deeper insights and pave the way for meaningful growth and self-discovery.

Clarifying Personal Goals and Desires

In the pursuit of success, Rebecca encourages listeners to redefine their notions of achievement and articulate their true desires. Rather than fixating on external markers of success, she invites individuals to explore their passions and values, offering practical tools for personal growth and fulfillment.

Conclusion

As the conversation draws to a close, Rebecca Arnold leaves listeners inspired to embark on their own journeys of self-discovery and transformation. With her forthcoming book, "The Rooted Renegade," she promises to equip readers with fifty actionable practices for unlocking their full potential and embracing a life of rooted peace and purpose.

Through Rebecca Arnold's illuminating insights and heartfelt anecdotes, this podcast episode serves as a beacon of hope for anyone seeking to chart a path towards personal growth, resilience, and authentic leadership.

Finding Support in Industry Organizations - with Attorney Liz Nielsen

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Attorney Liz Nielsen has guided hundreds of families through the estate planning process, serving as their trusted advisor to bring peace of mind to their lives. She is the founder of Nielsen Law, a small estate planning law firm in Austin, Texas.  Liz is Board Certified in Estate Planning and Probate Law by the Texas Board of Legal Specialization. She practices exclusively in the areas of estate planning, special needs planning, and estate administration.

Liz is also President of the Travis County Women Lawyers Association. Giving back to the Austin community is very important to Liz. TCWLA is a nonprofit organization that is committed to supporting issues affecting women both as lawyers and as members of society.  Liz is also Board Vice Chair/President-Elect of AGE of Central Texas, a nonprofit organization that helps older adults and their caregivers thrive as they navigate the realities and opportunities of aging and caregiving.

Finding Support in industry Organizations

In this episode, Liz shares some of the ways that industry organizations such as TCWLA are supporting working professionals and advancing opportunities and change. She also shares her insights on what to look for when considering whether to join an organization and how to get the most benefit from your participation. Lastly, Liz shares some insights into the work she does in helping individuals and families through estate planning. She busts some myths about who this planning applies to and what it entails.

Liz Nielsen's Journey: From Environmental Science to Estate Planning

Liz Nielsen shares her personal journey, tracing her path from studying environmental science to becoming a dedicated estate planning and probate lawyer. She emphasizes her passion for assisting clients through complex legal matters, inspired by her own family's experiences navigating her grandmother's dementia.

Making Estate Planning Accessible to All

Host Erica D'Eramo and Liz highlight the widespread lack of awareness about estate planning, particularly in underserved communities. They stress that estate planning isn't solely for the wealthy; even younger individuals with assets should plan for the future to avoid complications.

Women's Rights and Advocacy in Law

The conversation shifts to women's professional organizations, focusing on TCWLA, a significant advocate for women in the Texas legal community since the 1970s. Liz shares insights into the organization's growth and its impactful advocacy efforts.

Networking Strategies for Introverts in Law

Liz discusses her involvement in TCWLA, emphasizing the group's supportive environment for introverts. She underscores the importance of finding like-minded individuals and engaging in activities beyond traditional networking.

Promoting Diversity and Mentorship

Addressing the lack of diversity in the legal profession, Liz stresses the importance of mentorship, particularly for minority groups. She advocates for inclusive professional networks like TCWLA to combat stereotypes about women not supporting each other.

Advancing Gender Equality in Legal Leadership

Liz highlights progress in women's representation in law but emphasizes the need for further advancement, particularly in leadership roles. Erica and Liz agree that achieving equity means normalizing women's presence in all levels of the legal profession.

Smart Planning for Complex Situations

Erica and Liz discuss the critical aspects of estate planning, including incapacity planning and considerations for families with special needs. Liz emphasizes the importance of seeking professional guidance to ensure comprehensive planning.

The Pitfalls of DIY Wills

Liz advises against using DIY wills, citing potential complications in probate proceedings. She encourages individuals to seek guidance from board-certified estate planning attorneys to navigate the process effectively.

Mentorship and Professional Development

Liz underscores the value of mentorship in professional organizations, highlighting its role in personal and professional growth. She emphasizes the importance of education and seeking professional assistance in estate planning endeavors.

Conclusion

In this insightful conversation with Erica D'Eramo, Liz Nielsen provides valuable insights into estate planning, professional organizations, and the importance of seeking professional assistance in navigating legal complexities.

The Stress Effect

Since 1992, April has been recognized as Stress Awareness Month. Chronic stress has been shown to negatively impact health in a multitude of ways, and enduring high levels of stress can decrease performance at both an individual and organizational level. Research also indicates that stress can impact historically marginalized communities in more extreme ways. In this podcast episode, we explore ways to recognize and address stress in both yourself and your team, and the importance of understanding how it manifests uniquely for each of us.

Transcript below:

Erica D'Eramo 0:07

Hello, and welcome to the Two Piers Podcast. I'm your host, Erica D'Eramo. Today we'll be discussing stress. So we'll explore stress from a personal and physiological standpoint, but also from an organizational standpoint. We'll discuss ways to recognize stress and ways to address it both for yourself and for your team. Thanks for joining us for this next episode of Season 3 of the Two Piers podcast.

For the past 30 years, April has been recognized as Stress Awareness Month. It's a time in which we can raise awareness about the health impacts of stress, and how it affects both ourselves and those around us. So I wanted to start this podcast out with a personal anecdote back from 2016. So at that time, I had just wrapped up a really high stress, high stakes job working offshore, rotating internationally kind of working on a boat. And I just started a sabbatical, I had just started this company Two Piers, I'd also just gotten married, we just had like a little ceremony with friends and family up in Massachusetts kind of signed the paperwork out in a park with a town clerk, you know, nothing exorbitant. But I was also combining households at the time, now that I wasn't working offshore, we decided to renovate my house while we lived in my partner's house. I also decided to apply for some grad schools to start my MBA and explore grad school programs. Meanwhile, I was in parallel organizing the big wedding celebration that we would be holding in Houston, where, you know, our friends would travel from around the country, and it would kind of be the big party. So, I was doing all this while self managing ADHD and thinking to myself, like, oh, this is the low stress part of my life. This is the part where I've left the high stress work environment behind and now I can just focus on some personal things for a little bit. Then, all of a sudden, I started seeing these symptoms of what looked like an allergic reaction, almost like I'd eaten something that I was allergic to. And we could not figure out the source. I talked to doctors, and we tried eliminating pretty much everything from my diet. They put me on some oral steroids, and yet I was still seeing these like big red blotches that would just come out of nowhere and it persisted. I tried antihistamines, I tried Benadryl, which is an antihistamine, but you know, these all have side effects. So the steroids can make you like a little edgy or cranky, they can cause like increased appetite, decreased metabolism, the Benadryl makes you sleepy and groggy. Just a whole cocktail of things that someone who is about to have to get in a little white dress does not, does not want to deal with. And I just felt increasingly helpless and frustrated. And then we like had no answers. So it just happened to be that in those days leading up to the wedding, I offhandedly mentioned to my OBGYN during my annual appointment that I was having these like, allergy symptoms, and we couldn't figure out what it was. I'd like gone to hypoallergenic everything. And I was essentially eating just like bowls of rice at that point. She laughed and was like, "Well, it's the stress silly." And I thought like, I'm not stressed.

There's no stress, like, what I'm not even like doing anything I'm, I'm, I'm not working offshore anymore. So this is like the low stress period. And she kind of like rattled off all the things that I was doing, these major life changes that I was tackling all at once. And I realized, like, oh, right, I am stressed. It's just a different type of stress. I was so just caught up in the sheer number of things I had to get done and just entirely focused on powering through that I really hadn't even considered the magnitude of what I was trying to accomplish. And it just didn't fit in my paradigm either of what I thought stress looked like. So instead of being in an environment where people could die if I made a mistake, or we were always on edge, and the hours were really long, and there were sleep deprivation, it was a different type of stress, but stress that I had gotten used to, in a way. And now I told myself, you know, I'm just like, I'm arranging Airbnb reservations for family members, and travel plans and catering reservations and this is easier stuff. But it wasn't, it wasn't easier stuff, there were lots of interpersonal interactions going on, there was a lot to juggle, there were a lot of disparate work streams happening with pretty high stakes. So, yeah, I finally realized what the source of this reaction was, and it was my own body kind of saying, like, timeout, stop, that's enough, you're not going to acknowledge the stress unless we do something that's unavoidably recognizable here, was like putting up a warning flare to say, like, cut it out, this isn't sustainable. And it did right before the big wedding event in an unavoidable way. So, it was clear, once it was clear what the source of the stress was, or what the source of the this reaction was, I was able to take measures to kind of intervene, and I was able to sort of delegate a lot of stuff and let go of some of the perfectionism around it, and just sit my butt down and do some meditation, which really, really helped. And so in those photos from that day, I managed to get into that little cream colored Diane Von Furstenberg dress after all, and there's no big red blotches in any other photos. But, I still look back on that and think, how unaware I was of my own stress levels, and whenever I start to feel stress kind of reaching those unsustainable levels in my life, I remember like there's a potential allergic reaction around the corner that might kick in, that I'll then have to deal with in parallel, when my body just says, nope.

So what's the point of this story? What's the learning that I want our listeners to take away? Well, there are a couple, one big piece of it is the connection between mind and body, they are in fact, one in the same. So our brain's primary function is actually to maintain what's called allostasis. And you might not have heard that word before. So that's the process in which a state of internal physiological equilibrium is maintained by an organism in response to actual or perceived environmental and psychological stressors. So Lisa Feldman Barrett explains this in actually both of her books that I've read, she might have more than two books, but the two that I've read are, How Emotions Are Made, which goes very much in depth around how our brains function and the connection between emotions and physiology. And then her other book, Seven and a Half Lessons About the Brain, which is a very engaging and easily approachable book, so I highly recommend it. So she explains that the brain's primary function is not actually thinking, even though that's what we normally think of when we think of the brain. The brain's primary function is to keep you alive. So all of the signals that are transmitted, all of the chemicals that are released, the physiological changes that we then interpret as emotions, for example, my stomach feels queasy, and my blood pressure has gone up and I'm starting to sweat, therefore, this is stress. Those are the result of our brain trying to predict and prepare for whatever will keep us alive. And it does so by budgeting and then deploying the resources that we have. So the energy that we have from eating food, or the water that we have available, the hormones that we have available, but sometimes the perceived threats that we're physically prepared to tackle in that state of elevated stress, that like acute stress, are not the actual deadly threats that we think they are.

Instead, we end up with this chronic enduring stress, which ironically, does not help keep us alive. In fact, it shortens our lifespans. So stress is tied to myriad health conditions that can negatively impact not just our quality of life, but also the length of our life. So in that episode from 2016 that I just discussed, I had a case of acute stress that was layered on top of chronic stress and that manifested into a visible physical reaction. However much of the impact to our bodies and health are just not so easily recognized. But that doesn't mean they're not occurring and enduring. So according to the APA or the American Psychological Association, chronic stress can affect both our physical and psychological well being by causing a variety of problems including anxiety, insomnia, muscle pain, high blood pressure, and a weakened immune system, which you know, during a pandemic is certainly not what we want. So chronic stress, we know is tied to heart disease and even those that do not have heart disease can suffer a heart attack due to an acute bout of stress. So as we approached April this year, and I was thinking about all these amplifying stressors that play layering on top of each other, the incredible amount of stress that most people are managing just day to day already, plus we had a war kicking off in Europe, we had these terrible stories of pain and destruction and talk of nuclear war at play, COVID cases going up and down, surging, but certainly regulations are changing with mass mandates, and people are returning to the office and managing that in a new world of hybrid work or fully returned to work. And oh, April is tax season. So you know, that annual low stress time for everyone where they're getting all their stuff done. And you know, maybe you got your taxes done in January, but I don't know how many people were battling up to the last minute to get taxes done in April. So I'm sure it's just a coincidence that April was chosen as stress Awareness Month, but I certainly saw lots of seasonal stress. And the days are getting longer, which everyone tends to think of as a good thing. And I do think it's a good thing, I think seasonal affective disorder tends to hit people in the winter, when the days are short, we have a lack of sunlight, a lack of vitamin D. But as those days get longer, and our energy increases, sometimes that can lead to higher stress, it can actually lead to increased irritability for some folks and longer days and less sleep. So that light change in the positive direction, we should also be keeping an eye on.

So what can we do? I think we certainly can't change individually, we can't change outcomes of international diplomacy or stop a global pandemic. But one of the most important things we can do is to recognize the stress itself. So that was the other key element from my story from 2016 was this ability to recognize our own kind of tells or identify our own signals from ourselves or our bodies that we are under huge amounts of stress. So we all have different ways that stress will manifest and it could be behavior like biting your nails, or eating sugary foods, or it could be exhibited through poor sleep. Maybe when you're experiencing high stress, you end up doom scrolling on social media for extended periods of time.

So we can learn a lot about our current state by just stopping to take a quick inventory of our behaviors of our rhythms and the sensations and experiences that we're having within our bodies. That's something that we call interoception. So a key to this activity of like taking that inventory is at least, to the best of your ability, trying to leave behind the stories about how stressed you should be right now. So just like in my story, where I felt like, I should not be stressed right now, because I'm not doing the normal things that I would think would stress me out. These are fun things to be doing. You know, picking out tile for the kitchen renovation should be a fun activity. I had my own biases and stories around what stress should look like and that got in the way of me being able to recognize what was happening with myself. Even more recently, a few weeks ago, I realized that I was crying intermittently from things that normally wouldn't cause such a reaction. And that's pretty unusual for me. And then it dawned on me that I was managing a massive amount of stress, coming up on the end of one cue, lots of due dates and deadlines and a lot of different responsibilities in different parts of my life that we're all just kind of landing at the same time. In a moment, I remember thinking, but I don't have anything to be stressed about. And just saying the words out loud, like, I think I've reached my full capacity and I'm approaching burnout was hugely impactful for me.

So being able to stop taking inventory, and just recognize what is versus what should be, can be really helpful in at least understanding where we're at on that scale of stress. And when we've moved from sort of peak operating for intermittent stress into the enduring chronic stress that is now reducing our quality of life and reducing our quality of work and having negative impacts. So while you know coming to that realization is not a cure in and of itself, it is the key to be able to make a change. So that's the key empowering information to be able to then make changes in your life and not just continue with the status quo. So you can start to monitor for when those sorts of, I'll call it a tell, those tells arise, even just when your pace quickens or you can feel your blood pressure increase, and I mentioned interoception. So that's when we are aware of the feelings within our body, and a lot of times yoga practitioners will discuss interoception, but it's being able to understand the small changes in your own physiology that normally you're not even thinking about. Once you can pick up on that, then you can make those adjustments and adjustments can take a wide range of forms. So it might be physical, you might notice that you're feeling elevated stress and you wanna go get some fresh air or go take a walk, maybe play fetch with your puppy, that's a great stress reliever. Or you know, play with your cat. Pets are huge stress relievers, when they're not stressed inducers at three o'clock in the morning. But you can also make environmental changes. So you can increase how much full spectrum light that you have in your workspace, you can put your noise cancelling headphones in and add some uplifting music, if you work better with music. Music and rhythm can be huge stress reducers. Maybe dancing is the way that you can reduce stress. It can also be psychological, we can reframe our situations and maybe understand the true likelihood of negative outcomes. So that threat that we're perceiving that's causing that fight or flight mechanism to kick in, what's the real likelihood that something bad will happen? And what does that really look like? That can take some of the weight out of it. Or perhaps, we stopped trying to control an outcome that isn't ours to control so that you know, there's mechanisms in the reframing that we can use. That's something that we do a lot in coaching is we can reframe things and understand what the true root source of the stressor is, and then how we want to understand it going forward.

But we can also make some big changes. If chronic stress is something that has been a battle for months or years, then it could be that you can say no to big projects, you know, no new projects, I'm already at capacity or no to people. And surrounding yourself with people who understand that and are okay with that can really improve our quality of life. And sometimes it's at a point where we understand that it's time to leave a job or a relationship that's no longer serving us and is the source of our chronic stress. And I recognize that's not always possible. That requires resources, privilege, etc. But a first step is even recognizing where the source of our chronic stress is coming from and what the impact is to our longer term lifespan and quality of life. So another thing to keep in mind, as we look at how we react and respond to stress is that our stress patterns can really be shaped by our past experiences, especially when those include trauma. So in their book What Happened to You?, Dr. Bruce Perry and Oprah Winfrey, do a great job of exploring stress patterns and stress response. I listened to that book on Audible and I thought it was wonderful to hear the discussion back and forth. They provide a PDF that has diagrams to walk through it, but I also think the paperback could be another great resource. So they discussed how individuals who have experienced unpredictable, extreme and or prolonged stress, particularly in their developmental years, may also experience sensitized stress responses. So that means that they're fight, flight or freeze reaction is just triggered more quickly. So if we think of like a curve, it looks more like a logarithmic curve that rises fast and then plateaus versus a linear curve, that's like a straight line in a upward direction. So this type of response, one point was the body's way of keeping that individual safe in the face of unpredictable danger. But it's not so easily turned off when it starts kicking in prematurely or causes a stress response that's no longer appropriate or helpful for us. So we see similar impacts with PTSD. And Dr. Bessel van der Kolk, actually explores this extensively in his book, The Body Keeps the Score. And I mentioned this because it can be really helpful to work with a trained certified therapist to address any past trauma that is negatively impacting how we experience and process stress in our day to day lives. That's not for everybody, not everyone is experiencing those sensitized stress responses due to trauma. But if you are, then definitely there is work to be done that a therapist can help with.

So we've talked about this from a personal perspective, but how about from an organizational perspective. Staying tuned into the stress levels of your team and your employees is critical, but we have to remember that each of us will exhibit and manage stress in our own unique way. So, if you as a team manager are an extrovert, and you think that the way for the group to blow off steam after a big deliverable is to have an off site or like a Zoom happy hour, you'll just need to be mindful that any introverts on your team are probably under increased stress due to that activity, and it's adding about a massive stressor instead of alleviating stress. Similarly, for the extroverts on the team, if they've been working from home extensively for enduring periods of time, that could be leading to feelings of isolation, and thus increased stress. So many times the narratives and myths we have around the value of the grind or toughing it out or putting in the elbow grease, they can actually do a disservice to us in recognizing and addressing stress. And yet, we know that chronic stress levels lead to decreased productivity, difficulty concentrating, increased interpersonal conflict and tension. And then, oversights and mistakes. So while we might mythologize and kind of hold up the grind and putting in the long hours as being somehow like, emblematic of a good worker, it can cloud our vision with recognizing stress and performance on the team. So allowing the stress to then continue to the point of burnout just results in more like days away from work cases, more medical leave higher turnover. And none of that is good for the bottom line. None of that is good for team cohesiveness or for furthering the mission of your organization.

And we also know that members of marginalized and underrepresented groups may not just experience additional higher levels of chronic and acute stress, but they also might have less leeway in addressing that stress in the workplace or showing vulnerability because they're facing biases and stereotypes that will limit the ways in which they feel they can talk about that stress or voice those concerns or be vulnerable. So getting to know each member of your team as an individual and establishing psychological safety and understanding how they cope with and manage stress are all critical leadership skills and frankly responsibilities of any leader. That doesn't mean that we need to entirely change the way the team works for each and every individual but, being able to treat everyone in the way that they will operate best will inherently be better for the team.

So if you are looking for support in dealing with a stressful work environment, or if you want to learn more about establishing healthy work practices in your team, you can get in touch with us at twopiersconsulting.com and you can schedule a free consultation and we'll talk about how we can help you. Our coaches and consultants are here to help you on an individual level and on an organizational level to help you thrive. We look forward to seeing you on the next episode of the Two Piers Podcast.

Selecting the Right Coach

In our first episode of Season 3, we're joined by fellow Two Piers coach Dr. Anthony Luevanos. In this episode, we explore how to go about selecting a coach - what to look for, what matters, and what might matter less than you'd think! We answer some of the common questions we encounter and share our own insights and lived experiences. This is also a great opportunity to get to know Anthony a bit better and understand his coaching style and who he works with as clients.

Transcription Below:

Erica D'Eramo 0:05

Hello and welcome to the Two Piers podcast, season three. We'll be kicking off this season today with an exploration of what to look for in a coach. So we get this question a lot and figured it was worth a discussion. In order to help kind of explore this, we have a special guest joining us today. So, fellow coach Anthony Luévanos who also coaches with Two Piers Consulting.

Welcome, Anthony.

Anthony Luévanos 0:45

Thank you. I appreciate it. It's good to be here. So glad I get to join you on the season three podcast this so much fun.

Erica D'Eramo 0:55

Yeah, I always love having good guests on it really makes podcasting a whole lot of fun. So, Anthony and I have kind of talked about this in the past about what we like in a coach, what we see as valuable in a coach, but with the amount of times that we've fielded this question, we thought, you know, why not have a discussion? He and I might have kind of different points of view on this. So yeah, Anthony, what are your thoughts just to kind of kick off?

Anthony Luévanos 1:28

Sure. Well, I think one of the very first things that you always think about is whether or not to do the research, or whether or not to do, just get one under your belt. So, there are definitely those two different ways and maybe even more, but you could do the all the research you want on a particular coach and then get to that coaching experience, and then realize, oh gosh, this isn't working, or never have done the research, get one under your belt and realize that this is the one you just don't want to stick with the rest of your life. So there's nothing like getting that experience in there firsthand to establish that coaching relationship. But also, you could do a hybrid and do a little bit of research and get one under your belt, and then move on from there.

Erica D'Eramo 2:25

Yeah, I think a lot of coaches offer kind of either a free consultation or get to know me session in advance. So that would definitely be something that I would recommend taking them up on that offer. I know at Two Piers, we offer a free 45 minute consultation first. That really is for people to get a feel for our vibe, our style for us to explain what they should expect out of coaching and how we coach and for them to make a decision at that point, if it sounds like a match or if it doesn't sound like a match. That happens on both sides too. So, I certainly want a client to use that time to decide if they feel like I'm a good match for them as a coach. And similarly, if I sense that, you know, I'm not the right coach for that client, I'll let them know. It might be, you know, that actually, Anthony might be a better match for them as a coach based on style or background. So...

Anthony Luévanos 3:30

And you know, sometimes you just run into these coaches that are just amazing. I mean, they can switch from coaching style to coaching style and they are great adapters at whatever you throw at them. So, that's why I say you can do the research or all the research you want, but getting that first under your belt and getting familiar with the coaching process and the experience is, I think, essential for all clients. You may run into that coach in that rare occasion that can adapt to you and adapt to what you need, and really have a great positive experience and get some really great stuff. So don't sell a coat short if you've done all your research and you're thinking well, this particular coach may not really fit my style, who I am, my personality but I would say cut the coach a little bit of slack, experience the coaching firsthand and see how it goes. Sometimes there's the off chance that you can go on a blog or read a profile on one of these coaching certification agencies or associations and kind of get a little bit of background. But that experience really doesn't do justice to what that coach can bring. Let's be honest, all coaches on their profiles, depending on how often they check those profiles and then how often they update their description online. Coaches change over time and some coaches, they constantly are in that space of learning and evolving as coaches. So just remember that when you're shopping around for a coach.

Erica D'Eramo 5:45

Yeah, I completely agree, I think there's no, there's no guarantee from doing any of the background research that it's going to be a match as far as style goes. Just like for those of us that have experienced the online dating world, you could find a perfect profile that looks like it's going to be an exact match. But, there's something about chemistry that really makes a big difference. I don't think I know of too many coach, I don't think I know of any coaches that don't have something in place to kind of accommodate for a mismatch in chemistry. So, I would certainly recommend if you don't get a complimentary session or kind of a get to know you session, if you're going straight into a paid coaching engagement, make sure that the coaching agreement has something in there to accommodate for if it's not a match. If you get through that first session, do they have a refund policy? Will they allow you to cancel the engagement. You don't need to have something go wrong in a coaching session for it to just not feel like a match, because it's very, it's very unique and very personal. So yeah, I agree, getting one under your belt is kind of critical to making sure that it's the right coach for you.

Anthony Luévanos 7:16

Oh, for sure.

Erica D'Eramo 7:17

What are some other...Yeah, sorry, go ahead.

Anthony Luévanos 7:19

No, I was just thinking, you know, you don't want to get into a coyote ugly situation and you're just trying to chew your arm out of that bear trap, you're like out of the bear trap, like, oh, my gosh, I just committed six sessions or bought six sessions with this person. So yeah, that's a good point, Erica. But yeah, like you were asking some other aspects is, you know, what do you want to get out of the coaching experience? Yeah, what do you envision for your experience? Some of the things that you can think about, or do you want to set goals for yourself? Are you looking for a partner in a visioning process? Do you want to challenge yourself in some aspect of life? Are you trying to solve a problem, think through a situation? Even as basic as overcoming intergroup conflict and trying to get some ideas and having that coach just help you dig deeper, to get just a different perspective on life experiences and how to think through these things. So, those are those are important points when you start considering what coach or a type of coach you want to work with so that you can have an opportunity really to move throughout these different situations. I mentioned before, a coach can really, great coaches can really adapt to different scenarios and they can really help you move through these spaces. So often, you're in a situation and there are lots of coaches and some coaches specialize with particular clients that have a particular outcome, or they're thinking about something that they want to get done through the coaching experience. So just remember that when you're reading a profile and when you're interacting with somebody, make sure that that is a good fit for the expected outcomes that you have.

Erica D'Eramo 9:36

Yeah, yeah, I think that, especially as coaching is becoming more well understood and people are understanding that, you know, coaches partner with their clients, we're seeing a bit less of this, but oftentimes, there's just a really basic misunderstanding of what coaching provides and people are expecting that they'll meet a coach and get a lot of advice. Sometimes that's what they want and sometimes we know advice can not be as helpful as we expect it to be. So that's another thing to get clear with your coach on at the beginning, what is it that you're looking for? Because I know that if I made a client or potential client who says like, I just want you to give me career advice, I'll usually take that opportunity to take a pause and understand what are you hoping to seek by getting my advice? Because in a coaching context, we generally don't give advice, right? That's one of the things that people are often surprised about that we tend to avoid giving advice because we deeply believe that our clients know best, their own situation and know best what is right for the and so we help them uncover that. But being clear about what your outcomes are and what your goals are, will be really helpful in that coach understanding A if they're a right fit for you, and B, what that engagement might look like, what the arc of the engagement might look like and how they can be helping you to measure milestones, measure progress against that. So yeah, those are definitely important as you're starting on your coach discovery adventure.

Anthony Luévanos 11:27

For sure and I keep thinking about this, there's an image in my head that I keep going back to every time I have a coaching session and that image is the difference between someone with a flash, between following someone with the flashlight, the coach, being the one with the flashlight, and kind of leading and lighting the way versus the coach being behind the client and kind of lighting the way for the client wherever the client wants to go.

Erica D'Eramo 12:00

Yeah.

Anthony Luévanos 12:00

So, you know, it's a subtle difference but it's very important in terms of how you treat the how you treat the client or coachee, how you treat them and how the experience for the client goes. Because as a coach, you always want to be that person that says, where do you want to go with this conversation? What do we want? What do you want to accomplish at the end of this, so that the client can have some autonomy on or over where they'd like to take the conversation and how to move through X, Y, and Z?

Erica D'Eramo 12:43

Yeah, yeah. I mean, that kind of brings us on to topics of like, style and structure, actually. So, we've touched on style a little bit in chemistry, but I think coaching style to me is a really, maybe one of the most important factors for me when I'm seeking coaches, because, believe it or not, like most coaches have a coach, I think it's really good as a coach for me to also have a coach because I get to sit in the client's seat quite a bit, it keeps my skills honed, it keeps me empathetic towards my clients. So yeah, what I look for in a coach is really style above all else. That blends a bit into structure, how do they like to structure things, but I think what works for me won't necessarily work for other people and vice versa. So there's no right or wrong style, necessarily. I guess there are some styles that don't really adhere to what the ICF would consider coaching. But it's not a bad thing if you meet a coach and their style doesn't match yours, their style will match someone else's needs. So, just to be real with that, because I think so often in this world, we're taught to adapt to the hierarchy, adapt to the people that we're working with. In this case, I don't know that that's quite as important. It's important for the coach to be able to adapt, but for the client to be able to adapt to a coach's style is less important, actually, I think finding a style that works naturally is the most important. There's a lot of styles out there and some of the coaching databases like ICF will often ask how do you describe your style as a coach? And if they're looking to match people, they'll say, what style of coaching do you prefer? So what do we mean by style, I guess. So, Anthony, what do you think of when I talk about coaching style?

Anthony Luévanos 15:05

Well, I mean, honestly, just think of your attitude and your approach, kind of meeting the client where they are and just kind of getting a general feeling for how hard to press in, when to pull back, going at the pace of the client. That's important whenever you're thinking about, okay, well, this client seems the need to be challenged, they need a more direct approach. When you're coaching it does seem that coaches often find themselves moving from one place to another, depending on the particular topic or maybe even the general clients disposition. And so, attitude is really important when you're coaching a client. So when you're selecting a coach, understanding, you kind of have at the outset to have an understanding of what that coaches style is, whether they're more direct and firm or just non direct and gentle, unstructured versus structured. So oftentimes, we always hear coaches say that they have just a solid set of questions and those are the questions that they ask. I mean, that works, for some situations, but an unstructured approach is just as effective with clients.

For me, yeah, I would definitely advise clients or potential clients to look for those little things in terms of style. Because depending on what you need, whether you need some motivation or you need some inspiration, or you need someone that just practical, you need someone to guide you through that again, that process of thinking through a more practical situation, then, yeah, definitely. I would say, look at that coaches client comments, perhaps the coach has some quotes that clients have given them to kind of get a sense of what that coach is like. While one client may say one thing about this particular coach's style, another client might experience the same coach in a different way. And again, that will definitely show you, give you a deeper understanding of how that coach can adapt to different clients.

Erica D'Eramo 17:57

I think that's one of the other reasons it's important to like you said, get one under your belt, because while you might meet a coach, and like getting to know you meeting, and they might say that they have a quite gentle style, you'll really just be able to tell in the session itself. We're all a bit subjective about our styles. So even for me, understanding my style sometimes comes through seeing client testimonials, where they'll say things like, very supportive or created a very open safe space for me. And I think like, oh, that's great. Okay. I'm glad that that's how my style is coming. But it's easier to see it from the outside than the inside, necessarily. But yeah, I think, you mentioned supportive versus challenging, some clients really like to be challenged. They like that tension that directness, and other clients, especially if they're getting a lot of that challenge from their current work environment, they need something a bit warmer and more supportive and understanding like where you're at right now, how you like to be challenged, how you like to be held accountable. Whether you want your coach to do more of the same of what you're used to or whether you want them to provide like a breath of fresh air and maybe a different style than what you're used to encountering at work or in your life, understanding that can be really, really helpful.

You mentioned structured versus unstructured and I think that there will usually be some level of cadence, some level of arc to the conversation in a client session or in a coaching session, but how structured that is and how much it varies from one session to another is quite dependent on the coach I think. So, for clients who really want to, they want to just land in the day and talk about whatever is top of mind that day and just kind of fly by the seat of our pants like stream of consciousness. I'm cool with that, if that's what they need in the moment, and if that's what works for them. But I know some coaches will really work to make sure that they stick to a structure. So if you're someone who likes that, who likes to structure who needs that, it's to kind of be brought back to home base and stick to it. Knowing that is really good because if you're not like that and you want to just sort of do stream of consciousness and the coach is bringing you back consistently, that kind of friction can really be challenging in a coach client relationship, I think.

Anthony Luévanos 20:52

Oh, gosh, yeah. I mean, I enjoy structure just as much as you know, I guess the next person. But I also like where more of the Tai Chi of coaching experience, you know, you go with the flow, and you do again, you reach that arc, and you come to a conclusion eventually. But it's important to know, again, I go back to what I said before, what are your expected outcomes? What do you want out of this coaching experience and that in hand, or that in mind, shop for a coach, if you want to do the research shop for a coach, but, definitely just get one on your belt. And I'm telling you, it's better if you don't overthink it and just get one in, because then you'll know, okay, well, that didn't go so great or maybe I just, I wasn't sure really what I wanted to get out of this experience, but at least you got one or you know what to expect in that coaching space. So, just get one under your belt, that's all I have to say.

Erica D'Eramo 22:09

Yeah, and I don't think you need many coaching sessions to understand if the coach is the right coach. You'll know the first coaching session, whether you have chemistry and whether their level of structure works for you. So you know, it really is like one session, you'll have a good feeling of whether it's a match. I do think over time I've probably moved towards more structure with my clients because I find that it's tended to lead to better outcomes for them. But it really is dependent on the goal. So kind of to circle back to what you said about what do you want to get out of the coaching, if my client really just needs a space to unpack, to understand their own thought process, to feel heard, to verbalize things that they hadn't verbalized before, that might look less structured. If they want to come out of the session with a prioritized list of five things to do, then that session might have more structure and we'll have a halfway checkpoint and we'll revisit, are we still on track? I do that in all my sessions anyways, but, I think that the type of goal will lend itself to more or less structure. So yeah, so probably finding a coach that can be flexible within that is is going to be important.

Anthony Luévanos 23:49

I wanted to ask you how important is background?

Erica D'Eramo 23:55

Well, I would say that background, like a coaches background as in what their career path was, or them having shared lived experiences with us, it certainly plays a role in that. I think it can allow us to become comfortable more quickly, it can help to increase psychological safety if we feel like that person has a similar journey or similar challenges to what we've experienced. I would say that it can be a bit of a red herring sometimes as well. So if we feel like we need a coach who has lived that same experience to us, that could really narrow our field quite a bit, especially if they're very unique experiences. Like me, for me, having worked overseas, worked on offshore facilities, if I had been looking for a coach who had had exactly that experience, I might have been looking for a long time. The reality is that while I certainly would feel like that person knew what I was talking about, if I use some of the jargon or the lingo, I have had coaches who have none of those shared experiences that have coached me extremely well. So often, we unnecessarily kind of limit that scope of potential coach, if we're looking for that. That's my thought on background.

Anthony Luévanos 25:40

Yeah, no, that's a good point, it really is a good point, because, I go at it from two different, I guess, ends and similarly to you, I mean, background matters to me, dependent upon my outcomes, my expected outcomes. If I need to think through a situation, I might lean towards someone more with some similar experiences, maybe not the same. But I don't totally kick out and someone that doesn't have the same background only because, again, it depends on what I'd like out of the coaching session. I tend to think that sometimes get taking yourself out of the element, out of that space, where, okay, this person is in the field of, you know, marketing and they have so much experience there. But I'm in science and while that may come into play at some point, I don't totally think that a coach with a different background than the client is going to get less quality from that particular coach. They may actually help that client to think through some issues in a different way.

Erica D'Eramo 27:16

Exactly. Yeah, I think the similar background piece is very much a double edged sword to me. So sure it can help to accelerate that psychological safety piece, you're using the same language, often, you're kind of used to thinking of things, you can make references, and know that that person will understand it. Yet, it can be really challenging when your coaches had, as a coach, maybe speaking as a coach, it can be really challenging when your client has had a lot of the same experiences that you've had to not get in the box with them, like we say, in coaching, right? To not try to fix the problem. There can sometimes be a higher risk of a client deferring to the coach and asking for advice. Because there is that potential differential of seniority or differential of experience in that field. So we end up kind of being pulled towards that consultant mindset instead of the coach mindset, just because it's very easy to say, well, what did you do, if that person's lived it? I find that as I'm doing coaching for longer, I'm getting more used to that, and it's okay if somebody says, well, what did you do? And I understand how to answer that question without giving them advice. But I do think that it can, yeah, I can have its upsides and its downsides. Because if you want to consultant then that person and if that person is going to act as a consultant in that moment, then it should be really clear, right? I'm taking my coach hat off, now. I'm gonna put my consultant hat on. That starts to muddy the waters a little.

Anthony Luévanos 29:11

Yeah and I want to go back to what you had said earlier. I mean, providing that safe space, sometimes this is an essential piece of how you want to experience your coaching session. There's so often times where clients can come to us with some with some traumatic experiences, and the only way that they feel safe sharing or thinking through this situation is by having someone with some similar experiences and being able to identify in a coach is professional. Erica, I mean, I know that when they would come to that place of hey, what did you do? Well, let's get what you want out of this experience. And good coaches adapt to that situation, they'll know, okay, wait, hold on, I'm not here to really provide mentoring or go into a consulting role here during this coaching session. But, sometimes you need someone that you that you feel safe with, and safe with sharing, because there's some commonalities there in terms of experiences on the job and personal experiences. I don't know, what do you think? I mean, is that a legitimate thing to think about when you're shopping around for a coach?

Erica D'Eramo 30:56

Yeah, I think. I think it's kind of like I'm an experienced client now as well, too, in a way, right? We've sat in the clients seat so much that if I encounter a coach who is like... I'm not going to ask a coach for advice, right? So in that regard, I don't end up encountering that. But I do think I've encountered coaches very early. In fact, I had kind of a negative experience when I first looked for a coach just because I couldn't find anyone that seemed to specialize in my area of what I was looking for, which was support for sort of first level leaders, for women working offshore. Again, very niche, very narrow, but I just found like an executive coach. So, I just remember, describe, and the person was a really good coach, and I enjoyed working with them. And also, when I explained kind of like, what life was like working offshore, just like normal life, that was not something they'd encountered before. And I remember them sort of saying, like, well, that just sounds like you should probably quit and find something else. And I thought, like, oh, you just don't get it. I mean, as a coach, they probably shouldn't have said that. But that part was like, right, okay, I probably need to find somebody who's at least not going to be like, whoa, that's so foreign to me that I think you should change careers. So, so yeah. That's my feelings on background, it can be helpful to have like a framework to understand that you share with your client to understand what their career looks like, and what their lived experiences are. I sometimes love getting fresh perspective from somebody who has never been there as long as it's maybe delivered in the right way.

Anthony Luévanos 33:13

Yeah, and you bring up a good point, you know, kind of our next point is experience level. How important is experience level?

Erica D'Eramo 33:22

So yeah, I think that for experience level, I've met some really just life changing coaches that are at the beginning of their coaching journey that I'm really glad to have had an opportunity to work with and be coached by. So I don't think that experience level is necessarily a must have, I think you can find a good match. Often, coaches who are at the beginning of their journey might be more accessible in terms of their availability, in terms of their fee structure, even. Oftentimes with more experience comes the ability to charge higher rates. I mean we should all be compensated for the value in the experience that we bring. So I don't have any issue with that. I think it's an art and a science. I've seen that some coaches that have more experience under their belt, while it's not a guarantee that they'll have fine tuned that in fact, sometimes they kind of fall back on like... I've met coaches who have so much experience but maybe have never gone through ICF accredited training or certification to sort of fall back on their experiences. Like, well I don't need to do any more learning, I've already done it. I have 20 years under my belt. I mean, I find that those haven't been a match for me. So that's something to keep an eye out for. But certainly, like my mentor coach has a great deal of experience and she, her coaching is an art form, like, she's an artist, and she is very inspired in what she does and inspiring and what she does. She really has it tuned in, and that she has that gut instinct at this point. So, so yeah.

Anthony Luévanos 35:25

I was just gonna mention for our viewers or listeners, ICF is the International Coaching Federation. It's a certifying body for professional coaches. So, you can have different levels of certification, ACC, PCC and MCC. But yeah, that's a really good point, more experience doesn't guarantee a great coaching session, less experience may provide you with the fresh perspective. It's sometimes, again, a good thing to get a good session in with someone that doesn't have quite as much experience, not spend a pretty penny. But yeah, be sure that you're aware of the cost involved in hiring someone that looks like they have lots of experience and will cost you a lot of money.

Erica D'Eramo 36:25

Yeah, again, I think like having a first session, you'll know. And that's why it's good to understand your coaching agreement and understand, if you are signing on with a very experienced coach who has many hours and high profile clients under their belt, but it's not a match, what does that look like in terms of being able to cancelling engagement? Or get a refund? Or what is the commitment there? So, so yeah, I'm kind of a complicated, complicated one. So, the other thing we get asked about a lot is niche. What kind of coach are you? I often get asked are you at a life coach? Are you a career coach? What kind of coach are you? So I mean, what are your thoughts on niche?

Anthony Luévanos 37:20

Me, I would say that I'm a universal guide. Yeah, that goes into anywhere from starting up a new venture in life, to learning how to deal with the situation and being flexible in that space is really important to me as a coach, but then also as someone looking for a coach, I would say, finding someone that has diverse experience, or a variety of experience, would be a great thing to consider when you're shopping around for a coach, because you just never know, again, life happens during any one of the coaches that you run into, and they may carry with them a great variety of perspective. My niche again is anywhere from executive level leaders to a parent just trying to think through a situation. I hold them both at the same level of esteem. I think maybe, I may not be thinking through this as much as I should, but I may not be a good coach for someone that is maybe a astronaut. You never know, I mean, but, depending on the topic, depending on the situation, depending on the expected outcomes. I mean, I could be, it just really depends, but, niches is kind of one of those things where, as you mentioned earlier, how important is background? While it might play some a role in the coaching session, it's not the thing that should that usually drives clients towards particular coaches, or that coaches typically think, well, I only specialize in these types of clients. A good coach is adaptable. But, some coaches take clients that have particular needs and that's okay.

Erica D'Eramo 40:13

Yeah, I think for me it's interesting, because I think there's a lot of pressure on coaches to choose a niche, and to "niche down". But that's more about having a message that is accessible and palatable to clients. In my opinion.

Anthony Luévanos 40:34

Yeah.

Erica D'Eramo 40:35

Because we don't know how, if you just say I'm a coach, okay, what kind of coach and what do you coach, right? Because we have various definitions of coaches in this world. I'm not a soccer coach, or a football coach. But I don't like differentiating between being a life coach or career coach, I mean, because I find that those two are never really separable. If somebody wants to work on their career goals with me, their life will become a part of that conversation and vice versa. So I think that the framing is often for clients, that being said, career transition coaches who specialize in a certain period of time, they might have a network that is helpful for you, they might have skills in reviewing your resume and updating it, they might have these other elements of almost consulting that they can thread into their practice. A health coach probably would also have certain elements of that, so they might have tools that they use to help their clients achieve their goals. So I can see those types of niches being important, but oftentimes, the coach will be whatever type of coach you need on that day. So even if they're a career coach, show up and you just say, my cat died today, they're not going to be like, well, let's talk about your career anyways, right? You're going to need to process what's going on in your life at that moment. So with that? Yeah. Thank you for helping to explore some of these elements of how to find, select, keep a coach. I know that it's been a journey for me to understand what my preferences are, and in what I like and value from my coaches, so I thought this would be a good one for us to talk about.

Anthony Luévanos 42:44

Yeah, yeah, really. I mean, I honestly, I just, I keep thinking, you know, being kind of the the adapter, like the coaching ninja, so to speak. I think that term is played out, but the Navy Seal of coaching, if you will. But, yeah, it's important to consider all these aspects that we just talked about today, because they do play a major part. Once you get a coach, it's a way to get to where you want to go a lot faster.

Erica D'Eramo 43:19

Yeah, I agree. I think, for me, having a coach in my life has been really important in achieving my goals. It's been transformational for me and I really want to offer that to my clients as well. I do offer that to my clients. So certainly, I look forward to working with more clients that feel like I'm a good match for them. That's always important to me that my client feels like I'm a good match for them and that I help them achieve those goals. Yeah. So for Two Piers Consulting, we appreciate you joining us for this podcast episode. If you want to learn more about our services or keep up with us on social media, you can find us at twopiersconsulting.com and you can book a get to know you session or a free consultation with either Anthony or myself if you feel like we might be a match for you for coaching. You can also follow us on the social media channels. So we're on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, and LinkedIn at Two Piers Consult. So we look forward to seeing you in our next episode. Thanks

International Menopause Awareness Day

In this episode, we're joined by Sarah Utley of Momentm, a fellow coach and DEI professional who discusses the impacts and implications of menopause from both a personal perspective, as well as a workplace and societal point of view. By 2025, projections estimate that 1 billion people will be experiencing menopause and yet understanding and awareness are still lacking. While menopause will be a part of life for nearly half the population, many employers do not take into account ways in which they can support their employees and create an inclusive environment that retains talent at the peak of their careers. We discuss this and more in our episode! To learn more about Sarah's offerings in the realm of DEI and coaching, visit her site at www.momentmpeople.com.

Transcript below:

Erica D'Eramo 0:08

Hello, and welcome to the Two Piers podcast. I'm your host, Erica D'Eramo. We are joining you with a bonus episode in between seasons two and three. So we ended last season with an episode around hybrid work and returning to the workplace with Ruth Cooper-Dickson from Champs Consulting. It's a great episode, we recommend you check it out. So this bonus episode came about because Monday, October 18th is International Menopause Awareness Day, which ties into our efforts in creating diverse, equitable and inclusive workplaces. We were discussing this topic with Sarah Utley, a fellow coach and DEI professional, who's agreed to join us from across the pond to share her personal story. She'll also give us some background about why this topic is so important, some of the societal context around it, and what companies, organizations and individuals can do to help raise their awareness around the topic of menopause. As well as, understand how they can better support those in their lives and in their workplaces when looking at this issue. About half the population will experience menopause in their life and that includes cis women, trans men and some non binary folks as well. Lastly, before we get started, you may notice the audio quality on my end isn't its usual quality. And here at Two Piers, we're striving to combat perfectionism. So, we appreciate you sticking with us through this Airpods episode.

Sarah, thank you so much for joining us. Welcome to the podcast.

Sarah Utley 1:53

Hello, Erica. Thank you so much. Really, really happy to be here and talk about something that's incredibly impactful and personal for me and important for us to start talking about more broadly within society and within organizations. So, I've spent my my career in in human resources and I'm a qualified coach, and I'm looking into pivoting my business more into coaching. I'm passionate about supporting organizations to develop a coaching culture and coaching capabilities, as well as, working with individuals to help them maximize their potential. I am one of those younger women who experienced perimenopause in my 30s, which is less common. I've had both physical and mental health impacts as a result of menopause. I'm still experiencing that, I'm 46 now. Exhaustion for me has been the main physical impact along with sometimes lack of concentration. But the main thing really, for me has been feeling mentally disconnected, and often feeling tense and anxious and nervous, for no explained reason, kind of came out of nowhere. I didn't really link the two until I went to see a specialist about erratic periods. Then she asked me generally well, how are you feeling? What else is going on in your life? I kind of vomited out this whole, "I just feel awful. I just feel tired. I'm feeling nervous and anxious. I go into meetings and I'm just not myself anymore. I feel dislocated." She said, "Well, you know, you're probably going through the menopause." I was so surprised because I was 34. I didn't think at that age that I would be experiencing perimenopause. But, the more research I've done, the more I realized that that is not as uncommon as I thought it was originally. Fluctuation in your hormones can be so disruptive to your sense of well being. You've got these hormone receptors in your brain and they start to dip and that impacts the production of all those great feel good hormones like serotonin and dopamine. That can increase the symptoms of anxiety. Then you've got that stress hormone cortisol, which is highest in the morning and that helps. Estrogen actually helps control the spike in that, so when you lose estrogen, you just get this peak of cortisol and nothing really to counteract that. So, it's been really helpful for me to understand the chemicals in your brain more, and you take for granted a lot of the things in life that you experience until you start losing something. And so, it's almost like this, my loss of estrogen, slowly throughout my life, is becoming more and more impactful. But luckily, I have a lot of support around me. I'm on HRT, which is quite controversial still. But for people experiencing menopause under 50, it can be a really good thing to be doing for a lot of health reasons. So that's straight into my story and the impact of menopause on me.

Erica D'Eramo 5:44

Yeah, thank you for sharing that personal story. And thank you for sharing it with me outside of the context of this podcast, too. I guess for the sake of our listeners, this discussion came about because you and I share that passion for coaching in the workplace, creating a coaching culture in the workplace. And also, we share the passion for creating representative workforces that are both diverse, inclusive, and equitable. So, this topic, you know, in relation to those efforts really fit in well, and I appreciate you raising it with me and giving us an opportunity on the awareness day to raise awareness about it. So, in your words, how would you describe why this topic is so important? You know, what are some of the implications of it?

Sarah Utley 6:40

Well, as I just described, estrogen plays a massive role in women's health and well being. For women, personally, estrogen contributes to calcium in bones. With the loss of estrogen, you therefore have more risk of osteoporosis and brittle bone disease. Estrogen helps maintain cholesterol, which I found really surprising. I've experienced an increase in my cholesterol despite eating healthily and being fit. That is because my estrogen is just at such a low ebb now. Therefore, the loss of estrogen impacts coronary heart disease, and makes you more at risk of that. It also keeps, estrogen helps keep your bladder healthy, which again, I didn't know about. So a lot of women can experience bladder problems when they go through the menopause, that frequent need to urinate, which you kind of think, my goodness, why is this happening to me, and then you put two and two together, and it kind of all makes sense. For industry and society, I can only talk about what's happening in the UK. But there's roughly about 72% of women who are in employment, and four and a half million are aged between 50 and 64 and that is the fastest growing economically active group. That happens to be the age group of the people that are most likely to experience menopause. Many of these women are at the height of their careers. Shockingly, one in four women report considering leaving their jobs due to the impact of menopause symptoms. You know, that's really shocking when you hear that. I think there are some statistics to suggest that in the UK, 14 million workdays are lost a year as a result of the menopause. So it has huge consequences for organizations and society: retention of talent, productivity and performance, employee well being and in the UK, you know, sick pay, as well. So huge societal, and organizational impacts and individual impacts.

Erica D'Eramo 8:58

Yeah, I think you gave me a statistic that by 2025, approximately, 1 billion people are estimated to be experiencing menopause. While a lot of the framing of this is kind of around women and women's issues, we recognize too, that this is affecting trans men. This is affecting non-binary people, it's affecting partners of people experiencing menopause. So, while it's often framed as a women's issue, it's really throughout our society and across you know, the gender spectrum. This affects humans and relationships and workplaces. I think this age bracket is really, really interesting because that is sort of where many of us are at our peak experience, our peak knowledge, our peak wisdom that we can be contributing so much to the workplace and so much sure our colleagues. One of the that things you and I discussed was how, oftentimes, when we talk about these issues, when we talk about pregnancy, any sort of reproductive health, when we talk about taking time away from the workplace, or any sort of accommodations that can help retain this talent. Sometimes we're met with the eye roll of like, uh, more concessions for women, like women takes so much effort. This is why we shouldn't have women in the workplace, this is why we should just write them off on like a multitrack. Anyone whose initial reaction is to think like, "Oh, this is so much effort," I would say that the challenges for everyone morph and change throughout their career, regardless of gender. It is a real wasted opportunity to not try to retain that peak talent. These individuals that you have invested so much in, whose challenges are just shifting and morphing, right? We have challenges early stage career, we have challenges mid stage career, and by the end when we feel like we've got it all figured out, and we're sort of coasting, well, the challenges change, right? So, that's typical. That is, again, that affects men and women. So, for people experiencing menopause, that's like a different challenge for them. It feels like there's so much opportunity there to better support people that are going through these challenges so that we can continue to have access to their brilliance, to their ideas, to the cohesiveness that they add to our teams.

Sarah Utley 11:47

I totally agree, Erica. It is so simple to just think of this as an older women problem. But it's not. There are so many young women and just think how disruptive it is, if you're in your 30s, to be experiencing something so profound on your fertility, you might not have thought about having children and going through early menopause takes away that opportunity or makes it harder. The psychological or mental impact of that must be quite profound. So, it's not just women over the age of 50, we are talking about young women. We're also talking about men who have transitioned, as you mentioned, and women who've had cancer treatments such as chemotherapy can trigger menopause through the treatment they have. Anyone living with a woman, whether that's in a lesbian or heterosexual relationship will vicariously experience the menopause almost a double whammy. So, you know, and anybody who manages women in the workplace, is going to experience menopause. So it's societal, we should all have an interest in this. I'm passionate about changing the narrative, making this more accessible, normalizing this, so that we all feel confident to talk and tell our stories. Because, I have been profoundly changed by my experience of menopause for the better. Because, I have experienced levels of anxiety. That has taught me a lot about myself and I've reached out for help and support and learned a lot about myself, that have shaped my journey now. Part of the passion for coaching is to give back. I know the power of coaching and what it can do for individuals. So, I'd like other people to experience what I've experienced too, to help them.

Erica D'Eramo 13:56

Yeah, I think a very interesting, I guess, anecdotal observation that I had was that I have heard about the increased need for awareness and discussion of menopause in the workplace and that, so far, has been from men who have a partner or a loved one who is experiencing menopause and have said to me, you know, you work in diversity, equity and inclusion. This is a topic that is grossly under covered, under represented and not discussed enough. It really affects people who are experiencing it and might be blindsided by it, like it might not coincide with our work plans with whatever plans that they had. So it's been men that have raised it to me, which just, is a little reminder that perhaps when it comes to issues that typically affect women or that disproportionately affect women, they can often have this taboo, right? Because we're discouraged from showing vulnerability or showing these weaknesses that perhaps can get used against us and we don't want to be seen as requiring more effort or more investment. So, it's fascinating to me. My hypothesis is that that is why it's been mostly men who have raised this to me, because they did not feel that same anxiety about being seen, as you know, more difficult. So yeah, I haven't had women raising this to me about, you know, in the context of work, just men. So, keep raising it to the to the folks out there who have the privilege and the space to raise awareness, even if you're not directly experiencing this or directly affected. If somehow you're in a bubble that does not interact with any women, then still raise it, right? Because it does affect society. Often your voices can be taken very seriously if you're not seen as having a vested interest. I will say that, the allies and advocates are very important. Also, those are individuals who often disproportionately sit in higher ranks of management. So we need to have men as a part of this conversation. It can't just be seen as a women's issue.

Sarah Utley 16:29

That goes for the whole spectrum of inclusiveness. Whether we're talking about gender, ethnicity, disability, neurodiversity, menopause is equally important and requires a shift in mindset, a narrative and ally ship. I don't want to exclude men from any of that conversation. You know, my husband lives with me, he experiences me and my menopause every day. Actually, his insights could be incredibly impactful for an organization looking at what they do to raise awareness, how they create that conversation, how they build programs that support women, and have men as allies for those programs. It won't work unless we're all singing off the same hymn sheet, unless we fundamentally believe in that inclusive culture.

Erica D'Eramo 17:39

Yeah, I totally agree. So, we discussed some of the personal elements and some of the organizational elements a little bit, we touched on that. But, what do you think are some ways are that organizations can better support their talent and continue to retain that talent when they are experiencing menopause?

Sarah Utley 18:10

I like to reframe that to what can organizations do to create that inclusive culture and where women can bring their whole selves to work. You've touched on a lot of stuff already, but, raising awareness and building engagement events around days such as World Menopause Day. Investing in employee resource groups, where women can come together in a safe, psychologically safe, space to talk about things that are important to them and raise awareness within their teams, within the broader organization about menopause, and have men and leaders sponsor and advocate for those groups. Sharing personal stories is also a great way to raise awareness. Organizations can also better support talent experiencing the challenges of menopause by training managers, so that they have the skills to foster that inclusive culture. For me, those skills are listening, that underrated skill of listening, that we all take for granted. But, not everybody is very good at listening. But giving your time to sit down and genuinely invest in listening to another person can, in itself, be of such great value. Having empathy, showing your own vulnerability as a man or a line manager, giving and receiving feedback and dealing with difficult conversations. I think those are all the ways that we can support having better quality conversations about menopause and other inclusive topics. I am enormously passionate about coaching culture and coaching capabilities and what that can bring to an inclusive environment as well. Some organizations are writing specific menopause policies, others are ensuring that their flexible working policies are inclusive to enable women experiencing menopause to be able to take time off at short notice. The online fashion store ASOS will be allowing women to work flexibly, as well as take time off at short notice while going through the menopause. It's been in the press recently and it's one of several new policies they're introducing aimed at supporting employees who are going through health related life events. There's a number of other organizations in the UK, HSBC UK, First Direct and M&S Bank, who've recently announced as first employers in the UK to be awarded an accreditation called menopause friendly accreditation. That accreditation basically recognizes inclusive employers who build awareness and understanding around menopause and take well being of their colleagues really seriously. So there's lots of stuff that organizations can be doing to create conversations around menopause.

Erica D'Eramo 21:37

Yeah, I think your comment about being an attentive listener in any position of authority or power is really tied a lot to our coaching culture that we are hoping to instill in organizations. I guess, for those who are not very familiar with coaching, or a coaching culture, that listening means not jumping to conclusions about what best serves the person you're speaking to. So really kind of just checking yourself. I could see people who are very well intentioned, sort of assuming that they know what will help individuals and jumping to those conclusions. That's kind of got like a bit of a paternalistic, kind of bent to it, right? So we just want to ask individuals, what do you need? What would help you fully show up and fully be present, what could give you that environment? Ask them because everyone is different. So while we can create these more inclusive policies, certainly like flexible working, we've seen from the pandemic that this can be more effective than what many managers or leaders had previously assumed. Again, that's kind of the paternalism coming in, but, we've seen that it can work, right? We've seen that some people need a mixture of that and so being open minded about what can work in your workplace can really help these conversations blossom. I guess I would add that as a manager, if you understand what it is that your team is delivering, what the end goal is, what the mission is, then it really helps to have that mindset as you have these conversations about any sort of accommodations or any sort of changes to policy because presenteeism is no longer as important if you understand what you're measuring. If you understand what your team is delivering and why they're there. So, it really opens up all sorts of opportunities when you just know what it is that your team needs to deliver. The rest of it is noise, right?

Sarah Utley 24:08

Totally right. I love the way you picked up on listening. I ran a leadership development program last week and I practiced Nancy Klein's Time to Think and it went down a treat. People really nervous that the whole thought of not speaking for five minutes and just listening and getting them to focus on what's happening in their head. And you don't realize when you've sat there, truly trying to listen, what's happening in your head, the cueing of questions and how judgmental we can be and how we are compelled to give advice and offer solutions. That for me has been a major mind shift through my coach training. For my entire career, I've been paid to give advice and provide solutions and coaching really offers you and invites you to step back, and truly believe that the person in front of you has the answers to their own questions, and having that mindset will be really helpful at all levels of an organization. For my managers to pause, give really good space for a woman who is possibly struggling to talk about something that can be very personal, very impactful and could be feeling really embarrassed but raising this topic. So yeah, listening skill.

Erica D'Eramo 25:42

Yeah, and we're highlighting it here in this discussion around menopause awareness a and I just keep thinking about how it really is so applicable to any marginalized community who shows up with vulnerability and communicates what it is that they need in an environment where they have perhaps been discouraged from showing vulnerability or from meeting too much or asking too much, because they always have an eye on that value proposition, right? Like, how am I being measured? And so, I guess, anything we're discussing here really is so applicable across just the spectrum of disability awareness, neurodiversity, fertility issues, gender issues, gender transition, all of these things that occur in the workplace. I guess are conversation around active listening, open mindedness, coaching culture, checking our biases, it all applies, right?

Sarah Utley 26:51

Sure does.

Erica D'Eramo 26:52

So Sarah, as a coach, how do you support clients that are facing this kind of shifting landscape of challenges in their careers and in their lives as they are perhaps approaching menopause?

Sarah Utley 27:06

You mentioned that women experience many career transitions and menopause is just one of those. Women experience early career challenges. If they have children returning from maternity leave, their first leadership role, menopause is a another career and life transition. I coach from a place of what can you do to live alongside the menopause more easily? Because it can't go away. For some women, they may not experience any menopause symptoms. For others, this could last for 20 years of your life, the most productive period of your life. And therefore, I coach from a place of what can we do to help you live alongside this more easily. And coaching is an opportunity for women to talk about the lived experiences of menopause, and work on things that are important to them in dealing with the challenges that that brings. That could be around well being and resilience, being more assertive, and being able to talk about menopause with their own manager, or even with the husband, having more self belief and confidence. That can all fluctuate a result of changing hormone levels. So it's working on what's important to them in a one to one context, or as part of group coaching, or team coaching, where you can create safe spaces for people to talk about things that are important to them, get to know each other, build that trust and increase team performance as well.

Erica D'Eramo 28:51

Yeah, I think having, well, obviously, having a coach can be so valuable. In so many different elements of life, it just seems really well suited for this as well, because of a lot of what we've already spoken about, right? That coaching is about sort of that self discovery that it has so much agency about it that the client gets to lead the way and choose the path that's right for them. So in a society and a world where we're constantly being told how to conform, how to make ourselves smaller or more flexible to conform into these workplaces or these cultures organizations. Coaching can really kind of help strip some of that back and show individuals what it is that they want. While a lot of my clients come to me initially thinking that I want to be happier in my job, we can sometimes pull away the in my job part and just focus on I want to be happier and sometimes it's turns out that I want to be happier in my current job is not feasible. And we can explore what other options look like if the workplace will continue to be inflexible or toxic, or not conducive to thriving. So yeah, coaching really just goes straight to what is the end goal? What is it that you want to achieve, and if that's happiness, if that's better mental health, living alongside menopause in a way that's sustainable, I think coaching is such a great, great support mechanism for that.

Sarah Utley 30:37

I agree. For me personally, I felt very dislocated, both from my own sense of self, and at times my own mental well being and that dislocation has been very unnerving. I've lost a sense of identity. So I've worked with my own coach on who is Sarah, who is my authentic self and being really bold about this is me, this is what I'm experiencing. This is what it means to people around me and how you get the best out of me. Coach has enabled me to be braver about saying this and being proud of it. If I can help other women and organizations and people impacted by menopause more broadly, to feel the same way, then, I've done my job.

Erica D'Eramo 31:46

Yeah, I think it's a really inspiring focus area for your coaching practice. So, what resources are currently available, whether that's for companies or for individuals?

Sarah Utley 31:59

There are lots of resources, more so now than what there have been let's say decade ago, but you've got to go and find them still. I can only talk, again, about the UK. Interestingly, Parliament are debating support for people experiencing menopause next week. So I'm really keen to see what comes out of the debate in Parliament and whether they change any of the laws, Employment Law within the UK. Currently, menopause itself is not recognized in law. It's not a disability. But you know, some of the the impacts of the menopause such a stress and anxiety is covered by the Disability Discrimination Act. So I'll be very keen to see what comes out of that, because that could give a really clear steer for organizations on what they actually need to do to provide the framework and compliance in this area. Reaching out to your doctor if you are experiencing physical or mental impacts of menopause. There's lots of societies online and who signpost to support services as well. Your HR team within an organization will always be there to help and provide support, and a sound board and a lot of companies offer employee assistance programs as well. I think coaching, obviously, we've found the job impact coaching a lot. That's always available as well.

Erica D'Eramo 33:37

Yeah, all great resources. For those in the US, there's also if you go to menopause.org, that's the North American menopause society, which is focused on advocacy and awareness as well. I guess it's good to know that in the US it is not current, menopause is not currently considered under Disability Employment Law. So under the ADA in the US, it does not require, what that means is that it does not require accommodations from the workplace by law. That doesn't mean that it's not the right thing to do to provide accommodations for the benefit of your own business and organization. But yeah, it's an interesting topic. I think we discussed that, my perception on this is that the conversation is more advanced in the UK than perhaps it is in the US. So, it's great that you reached out and we can raise awareness for our audience on the podcast, which we've got audience members kind of around the world. So, just to close out would you have any... I know we tend to avoid advice right? Something that you and I probably share that we avoid advising people because we'll never know their personal circumstances, everyone is so uniquely different. We fundamentally believe that everyone has their own right answers that we try to help them find. That being said, for this audience, are there any insights or kind of general advice that you would share with people that are perhaps struggling with this change in their life right now, or even for those who have loved ones that might be struggling with this?

Sarah Utley 35:36

What I say here, you're not alone. There will be someone you know who's experiencing multiples, and be brave and seek help. I think those are the two things, talking is a great healer. Whether that's through coaching or counseling, with your friends, or your partner. Be bold, be brave, find somebody to talk to, whether that's HR at work, or some woman within your life. But you're not alone. There'll be lots of other people who are experiencing this as well.

Erica D'Eramo 36:15

And how about for in the workplace, with managers or for leaders? Do you have any kind of closing comments?

Sarah Utley 36:24

For leaders, I would say, put this on the leadership agenda and talk about it. Start talking to women about it. Start listening to women and how this affects them and start normalizing it. Conversation, it all comes down to having conversations, not being afraid to have those conversations.

Erica D'Eramo 36:51

Yeah, if we look at retention numbers and we talk about retention numbers, and companies are looking at why can't we meet X and Y metrics, and why our pulse survey results so poor. Go that next level and start asking the questions and finding out what's really going on with people. Some of this might be hidden under there and just not been discussed because of past stigma around discussing health issues or issues that create the perception of vulnerability, even if it's not really vulnerability. So yeah, I think that's great talking about it, opening up the discussion, and doing away with that stigmatization.

Sarah Utley 37:48

I've heard of employers who refuse to make changes to uniforms, so that women that come forward and say, I'm going through the menopause, this uniform doesn't allow me to breathe, and therefore when I get hot flashes it's really uncomfortable. I've heard there are some employers that hadn't been willing to change their uniforms to make accommodations for that. And yet, I take real heart that there are some other organizations such as, I believe, Marks & Spencers who have just said, you can order as many different types of uniforms to suit your needs. That's just showing an awareness that not everybody wants to wear the same clothes. People go through different stages of their life and need different things from something as simple as a uniform. That can be transformative to how a woman feels about working for that employer. It can change Net Promoter scores, simple adjustments. You don't need to wear your heart on your sleeve and go all out. Incremental, small changes based on listening to what women really want, will make all the difference to lift experiences of women and colleagues random.

Erica D'Eramo 39:11

Yeah, I agree. And again, while this conversation is centered women, we also want to be inclusive to have what we mentioned trans men, non binary individuals, this affects a variety of different people. But we can say that more than 50% of the population, slightly more than 50% of the population, will at some point in some way, likely experience menopause. So, that is a massive number of people. With that, I just want to thank you and ask how people can get in touch with you if they wanted to work with you or gain your insights either through consulting for organizations or coaching?

Sarah Utley 40:07

I run a business called Momentum People. You can get in touch with me through my website or my email address, which I will leave with you, Erica. I would really welcome people reaching out to find out more about the menopause and how I can help them on their journey to live along-side menopause.

Erica D'Eramo 40:30

Great, thank you so much, Sarah. So we'll have Sarah's contact info in the podcast notes. We would invite you to follow us on our social media platforms to kind of learn more about these topics, stay engaged in the conversation. Two Piers is on Instagram, Twitter, Facebook and LinkedIn. You can always visit our website if you want to reach out and that's www.twopiersconsulting.com. We look forward to seeing you at our next podcast episode which will likely be in season three in 2022. Thanks, bye.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai