International Menopause Awareness Day

In this episode, we're joined by Sarah Utley of Momentm, a fellow coach and DEI professional who discusses the impacts and implications of menopause from both a personal perspective, as well as a workplace and societal point of view. By 2025, projections estimate that 1 billion people will be experiencing menopause and yet understanding and awareness are still lacking. While menopause will be a part of life for nearly half the population, many employers do not take into account ways in which they can support their employees and create an inclusive environment that retains talent at the peak of their careers. We discuss this and more in our episode! To learn more about Sarah's offerings in the realm of DEI and coaching, visit her site at www.momentmpeople.com.

Transcript below:

Erica D'Eramo 0:08

Hello, and welcome to the Two Piers podcast. I'm your host, Erica D'Eramo. We are joining you with a bonus episode in between seasons two and three. So we ended last season with an episode around hybrid work and returning to the workplace with Ruth Cooper-Dickson from Champs Consulting. It's a great episode, we recommend you check it out. So this bonus episode came about because Monday, October 18th is International Menopause Awareness Day, which ties into our efforts in creating diverse, equitable and inclusive workplaces. We were discussing this topic with Sarah Utley, a fellow coach and DEI professional, who's agreed to join us from across the pond to share her personal story. She'll also give us some background about why this topic is so important, some of the societal context around it, and what companies, organizations and individuals can do to help raise their awareness around the topic of menopause. As well as, understand how they can better support those in their lives and in their workplaces when looking at this issue. About half the population will experience menopause in their life and that includes cis women, trans men and some non binary folks as well. Lastly, before we get started, you may notice the audio quality on my end isn't its usual quality. And here at Two Piers, we're striving to combat perfectionism. So, we appreciate you sticking with us through this Airpods episode.

Sarah, thank you so much for joining us. Welcome to the podcast.

Sarah Utley 1:53

Hello, Erica. Thank you so much. Really, really happy to be here and talk about something that's incredibly impactful and personal for me and important for us to start talking about more broadly within society and within organizations. So, I've spent my my career in in human resources and I'm a qualified coach, and I'm looking into pivoting my business more into coaching. I'm passionate about supporting organizations to develop a coaching culture and coaching capabilities, as well as, working with individuals to help them maximize their potential. I am one of those younger women who experienced perimenopause in my 30s, which is less common. I've had both physical and mental health impacts as a result of menopause. I'm still experiencing that, I'm 46 now. Exhaustion for me has been the main physical impact along with sometimes lack of concentration. But the main thing really, for me has been feeling mentally disconnected, and often feeling tense and anxious and nervous, for no explained reason, kind of came out of nowhere. I didn't really link the two until I went to see a specialist about erratic periods. Then she asked me generally well, how are you feeling? What else is going on in your life? I kind of vomited out this whole, "I just feel awful. I just feel tired. I'm feeling nervous and anxious. I go into meetings and I'm just not myself anymore. I feel dislocated." She said, "Well, you know, you're probably going through the menopause." I was so surprised because I was 34. I didn't think at that age that I would be experiencing perimenopause. But, the more research I've done, the more I realized that that is not as uncommon as I thought it was originally. Fluctuation in your hormones can be so disruptive to your sense of well being. You've got these hormone receptors in your brain and they start to dip and that impacts the production of all those great feel good hormones like serotonin and dopamine. That can increase the symptoms of anxiety. Then you've got that stress hormone cortisol, which is highest in the morning and that helps. Estrogen actually helps control the spike in that, so when you lose estrogen, you just get this peak of cortisol and nothing really to counteract that. So, it's been really helpful for me to understand the chemicals in your brain more, and you take for granted a lot of the things in life that you experience until you start losing something. And so, it's almost like this, my loss of estrogen, slowly throughout my life, is becoming more and more impactful. But luckily, I have a lot of support around me. I'm on HRT, which is quite controversial still. But for people experiencing menopause under 50, it can be a really good thing to be doing for a lot of health reasons. So that's straight into my story and the impact of menopause on me.

Erica D'Eramo 5:44

Yeah, thank you for sharing that personal story. And thank you for sharing it with me outside of the context of this podcast, too. I guess for the sake of our listeners, this discussion came about because you and I share that passion for coaching in the workplace, creating a coaching culture in the workplace. And also, we share the passion for creating representative workforces that are both diverse, inclusive, and equitable. So, this topic, you know, in relation to those efforts really fit in well, and I appreciate you raising it with me and giving us an opportunity on the awareness day to raise awareness about it. So, in your words, how would you describe why this topic is so important? You know, what are some of the implications of it?

Sarah Utley 6:40

Well, as I just described, estrogen plays a massive role in women's health and well being. For women, personally, estrogen contributes to calcium in bones. With the loss of estrogen, you therefore have more risk of osteoporosis and brittle bone disease. Estrogen helps maintain cholesterol, which I found really surprising. I've experienced an increase in my cholesterol despite eating healthily and being fit. That is because my estrogen is just at such a low ebb now. Therefore, the loss of estrogen impacts coronary heart disease, and makes you more at risk of that. It also keeps, estrogen helps keep your bladder healthy, which again, I didn't know about. So a lot of women can experience bladder problems when they go through the menopause, that frequent need to urinate, which you kind of think, my goodness, why is this happening to me, and then you put two and two together, and it kind of all makes sense. For industry and society, I can only talk about what's happening in the UK. But there's roughly about 72% of women who are in employment, and four and a half million are aged between 50 and 64 and that is the fastest growing economically active group. That happens to be the age group of the people that are most likely to experience menopause. Many of these women are at the height of their careers. Shockingly, one in four women report considering leaving their jobs due to the impact of menopause symptoms. You know, that's really shocking when you hear that. I think there are some statistics to suggest that in the UK, 14 million workdays are lost a year as a result of the menopause. So it has huge consequences for organizations and society: retention of talent, productivity and performance, employee well being and in the UK, you know, sick pay, as well. So huge societal, and organizational impacts and individual impacts.

Erica D'Eramo 8:58

Yeah, I think you gave me a statistic that by 2025, approximately, 1 billion people are estimated to be experiencing menopause. While a lot of the framing of this is kind of around women and women's issues, we recognize too, that this is affecting trans men. This is affecting non-binary people, it's affecting partners of people experiencing menopause. So, while it's often framed as a women's issue, it's really throughout our society and across you know, the gender spectrum. This affects humans and relationships and workplaces. I think this age bracket is really, really interesting because that is sort of where many of us are at our peak experience, our peak knowledge, our peak wisdom that we can be contributing so much to the workplace and so much sure our colleagues. One of the that things you and I discussed was how, oftentimes, when we talk about these issues, when we talk about pregnancy, any sort of reproductive health, when we talk about taking time away from the workplace, or any sort of accommodations that can help retain this talent. Sometimes we're met with the eye roll of like, uh, more concessions for women, like women takes so much effort. This is why we shouldn't have women in the workplace, this is why we should just write them off on like a multitrack. Anyone whose initial reaction is to think like, "Oh, this is so much effort," I would say that the challenges for everyone morph and change throughout their career, regardless of gender. It is a real wasted opportunity to not try to retain that peak talent. These individuals that you have invested so much in, whose challenges are just shifting and morphing, right? We have challenges early stage career, we have challenges mid stage career, and by the end when we feel like we've got it all figured out, and we're sort of coasting, well, the challenges change, right? So, that's typical. That is, again, that affects men and women. So, for people experiencing menopause, that's like a different challenge for them. It feels like there's so much opportunity there to better support people that are going through these challenges so that we can continue to have access to their brilliance, to their ideas, to the cohesiveness that they add to our teams.

Sarah Utley 11:47

I totally agree, Erica. It is so simple to just think of this as an older women problem. But it's not. There are so many young women and just think how disruptive it is, if you're in your 30s, to be experiencing something so profound on your fertility, you might not have thought about having children and going through early menopause takes away that opportunity or makes it harder. The psychological or mental impact of that must be quite profound. So, it's not just women over the age of 50, we are talking about young women. We're also talking about men who have transitioned, as you mentioned, and women who've had cancer treatments such as chemotherapy can trigger menopause through the treatment they have. Anyone living with a woman, whether that's in a lesbian or heterosexual relationship will vicariously experience the menopause almost a double whammy. So, you know, and anybody who manages women in the workplace, is going to experience menopause. So it's societal, we should all have an interest in this. I'm passionate about changing the narrative, making this more accessible, normalizing this, so that we all feel confident to talk and tell our stories. Because, I have been profoundly changed by my experience of menopause for the better. Because, I have experienced levels of anxiety. That has taught me a lot about myself and I've reached out for help and support and learned a lot about myself, that have shaped my journey now. Part of the passion for coaching is to give back. I know the power of coaching and what it can do for individuals. So, I'd like other people to experience what I've experienced too, to help them.

Erica D'Eramo 13:56

Yeah, I think a very interesting, I guess, anecdotal observation that I had was that I have heard about the increased need for awareness and discussion of menopause in the workplace and that, so far, has been from men who have a partner or a loved one who is experiencing menopause and have said to me, you know, you work in diversity, equity and inclusion. This is a topic that is grossly under covered, under represented and not discussed enough. It really affects people who are experiencing it and might be blindsided by it, like it might not coincide with our work plans with whatever plans that they had. So it's been men that have raised it to me, which just, is a little reminder that perhaps when it comes to issues that typically affect women or that disproportionately affect women, they can often have this taboo, right? Because we're discouraged from showing vulnerability or showing these weaknesses that perhaps can get used against us and we don't want to be seen as requiring more effort or more investment. So, it's fascinating to me. My hypothesis is that that is why it's been mostly men who have raised this to me, because they did not feel that same anxiety about being seen, as you know, more difficult. So yeah, I haven't had women raising this to me about, you know, in the context of work, just men. So, keep raising it to the to the folks out there who have the privilege and the space to raise awareness, even if you're not directly experiencing this or directly affected. If somehow you're in a bubble that does not interact with any women, then still raise it, right? Because it does affect society. Often your voices can be taken very seriously if you're not seen as having a vested interest. I will say that, the allies and advocates are very important. Also, those are individuals who often disproportionately sit in higher ranks of management. So we need to have men as a part of this conversation. It can't just be seen as a women's issue.

Sarah Utley 16:29

That goes for the whole spectrum of inclusiveness. Whether we're talking about gender, ethnicity, disability, neurodiversity, menopause is equally important and requires a shift in mindset, a narrative and ally ship. I don't want to exclude men from any of that conversation. You know, my husband lives with me, he experiences me and my menopause every day. Actually, his insights could be incredibly impactful for an organization looking at what they do to raise awareness, how they create that conversation, how they build programs that support women, and have men as allies for those programs. It won't work unless we're all singing off the same hymn sheet, unless we fundamentally believe in that inclusive culture.

Erica D'Eramo 17:39

Yeah, I totally agree. So, we discussed some of the personal elements and some of the organizational elements a little bit, we touched on that. But, what do you think are some ways are that organizations can better support their talent and continue to retain that talent when they are experiencing menopause?

Sarah Utley 18:10

I like to reframe that to what can organizations do to create that inclusive culture and where women can bring their whole selves to work. You've touched on a lot of stuff already, but, raising awareness and building engagement events around days such as World Menopause Day. Investing in employee resource groups, where women can come together in a safe, psychologically safe, space to talk about things that are important to them and raise awareness within their teams, within the broader organization about menopause, and have men and leaders sponsor and advocate for those groups. Sharing personal stories is also a great way to raise awareness. Organizations can also better support talent experiencing the challenges of menopause by training managers, so that they have the skills to foster that inclusive culture. For me, those skills are listening, that underrated skill of listening, that we all take for granted. But, not everybody is very good at listening. But giving your time to sit down and genuinely invest in listening to another person can, in itself, be of such great value. Having empathy, showing your own vulnerability as a man or a line manager, giving and receiving feedback and dealing with difficult conversations. I think those are all the ways that we can support having better quality conversations about menopause and other inclusive topics. I am enormously passionate about coaching culture and coaching capabilities and what that can bring to an inclusive environment as well. Some organizations are writing specific menopause policies, others are ensuring that their flexible working policies are inclusive to enable women experiencing menopause to be able to take time off at short notice. The online fashion store ASOS will be allowing women to work flexibly, as well as take time off at short notice while going through the menopause. It's been in the press recently and it's one of several new policies they're introducing aimed at supporting employees who are going through health related life events. There's a number of other organizations in the UK, HSBC UK, First Direct and M&S Bank, who've recently announced as first employers in the UK to be awarded an accreditation called menopause friendly accreditation. That accreditation basically recognizes inclusive employers who build awareness and understanding around menopause and take well being of their colleagues really seriously. So there's lots of stuff that organizations can be doing to create conversations around menopause.

Erica D'Eramo 21:37

Yeah, I think your comment about being an attentive listener in any position of authority or power is really tied a lot to our coaching culture that we are hoping to instill in organizations. I guess, for those who are not very familiar with coaching, or a coaching culture, that listening means not jumping to conclusions about what best serves the person you're speaking to. So really kind of just checking yourself. I could see people who are very well intentioned, sort of assuming that they know what will help individuals and jumping to those conclusions. That's kind of got like a bit of a paternalistic, kind of bent to it, right? So we just want to ask individuals, what do you need? What would help you fully show up and fully be present, what could give you that environment? Ask them because everyone is different. So while we can create these more inclusive policies, certainly like flexible working, we've seen from the pandemic that this can be more effective than what many managers or leaders had previously assumed. Again, that's kind of the paternalism coming in, but, we've seen that it can work, right? We've seen that some people need a mixture of that and so being open minded about what can work in your workplace can really help these conversations blossom. I guess I would add that as a manager, if you understand what it is that your team is delivering, what the end goal is, what the mission is, then it really helps to have that mindset as you have these conversations about any sort of accommodations or any sort of changes to policy because presenteeism is no longer as important if you understand what you're measuring. If you understand what your team is delivering and why they're there. So, it really opens up all sorts of opportunities when you just know what it is that your team needs to deliver. The rest of it is noise, right?

Sarah Utley 24:08

Totally right. I love the way you picked up on listening. I ran a leadership development program last week and I practiced Nancy Klein's Time to Think and it went down a treat. People really nervous that the whole thought of not speaking for five minutes and just listening and getting them to focus on what's happening in their head. And you don't realize when you've sat there, truly trying to listen, what's happening in your head, the cueing of questions and how judgmental we can be and how we are compelled to give advice and offer solutions. That for me has been a major mind shift through my coach training. For my entire career, I've been paid to give advice and provide solutions and coaching really offers you and invites you to step back, and truly believe that the person in front of you has the answers to their own questions, and having that mindset will be really helpful at all levels of an organization. For my managers to pause, give really good space for a woman who is possibly struggling to talk about something that can be very personal, very impactful and could be feeling really embarrassed but raising this topic. So yeah, listening skill.

Erica D'Eramo 25:42

Yeah, and we're highlighting it here in this discussion around menopause awareness a and I just keep thinking about how it really is so applicable to any marginalized community who shows up with vulnerability and communicates what it is that they need in an environment where they have perhaps been discouraged from showing vulnerability or from meeting too much or asking too much, because they always have an eye on that value proposition, right? Like, how am I being measured? And so, I guess, anything we're discussing here really is so applicable across just the spectrum of disability awareness, neurodiversity, fertility issues, gender issues, gender transition, all of these things that occur in the workplace. I guess are conversation around active listening, open mindedness, coaching culture, checking our biases, it all applies, right?

Sarah Utley 26:51

Sure does.

Erica D'Eramo 26:52

So Sarah, as a coach, how do you support clients that are facing this kind of shifting landscape of challenges in their careers and in their lives as they are perhaps approaching menopause?

Sarah Utley 27:06

You mentioned that women experience many career transitions and menopause is just one of those. Women experience early career challenges. If they have children returning from maternity leave, their first leadership role, menopause is a another career and life transition. I coach from a place of what can you do to live alongside the menopause more easily? Because it can't go away. For some women, they may not experience any menopause symptoms. For others, this could last for 20 years of your life, the most productive period of your life. And therefore, I coach from a place of what can we do to help you live alongside this more easily. And coaching is an opportunity for women to talk about the lived experiences of menopause, and work on things that are important to them in dealing with the challenges that that brings. That could be around well being and resilience, being more assertive, and being able to talk about menopause with their own manager, or even with the husband, having more self belief and confidence. That can all fluctuate a result of changing hormone levels. So it's working on what's important to them in a one to one context, or as part of group coaching, or team coaching, where you can create safe spaces for people to talk about things that are important to them, get to know each other, build that trust and increase team performance as well.

Erica D'Eramo 28:51

Yeah, I think having, well, obviously, having a coach can be so valuable. In so many different elements of life, it just seems really well suited for this as well, because of a lot of what we've already spoken about, right? That coaching is about sort of that self discovery that it has so much agency about it that the client gets to lead the way and choose the path that's right for them. So in a society and a world where we're constantly being told how to conform, how to make ourselves smaller or more flexible to conform into these workplaces or these cultures organizations. Coaching can really kind of help strip some of that back and show individuals what it is that they want. While a lot of my clients come to me initially thinking that I want to be happier in my job, we can sometimes pull away the in my job part and just focus on I want to be happier and sometimes it's turns out that I want to be happier in my current job is not feasible. And we can explore what other options look like if the workplace will continue to be inflexible or toxic, or not conducive to thriving. So yeah, coaching really just goes straight to what is the end goal? What is it that you want to achieve, and if that's happiness, if that's better mental health, living alongside menopause in a way that's sustainable, I think coaching is such a great, great support mechanism for that.

Sarah Utley 30:37

I agree. For me personally, I felt very dislocated, both from my own sense of self, and at times my own mental well being and that dislocation has been very unnerving. I've lost a sense of identity. So I've worked with my own coach on who is Sarah, who is my authentic self and being really bold about this is me, this is what I'm experiencing. This is what it means to people around me and how you get the best out of me. Coach has enabled me to be braver about saying this and being proud of it. If I can help other women and organizations and people impacted by menopause more broadly, to feel the same way, then, I've done my job.

Erica D'Eramo 31:46

Yeah, I think it's a really inspiring focus area for your coaching practice. So, what resources are currently available, whether that's for companies or for individuals?

Sarah Utley 31:59

There are lots of resources, more so now than what there have been let's say decade ago, but you've got to go and find them still. I can only talk, again, about the UK. Interestingly, Parliament are debating support for people experiencing menopause next week. So I'm really keen to see what comes out of the debate in Parliament and whether they change any of the laws, Employment Law within the UK. Currently, menopause itself is not recognized in law. It's not a disability. But you know, some of the the impacts of the menopause such a stress and anxiety is covered by the Disability Discrimination Act. So I'll be very keen to see what comes out of that, because that could give a really clear steer for organizations on what they actually need to do to provide the framework and compliance in this area. Reaching out to your doctor if you are experiencing physical or mental impacts of menopause. There's lots of societies online and who signpost to support services as well. Your HR team within an organization will always be there to help and provide support, and a sound board and a lot of companies offer employee assistance programs as well. I think coaching, obviously, we've found the job impact coaching a lot. That's always available as well.

Erica D'Eramo 33:37

Yeah, all great resources. For those in the US, there's also if you go to menopause.org, that's the North American menopause society, which is focused on advocacy and awareness as well. I guess it's good to know that in the US it is not current, menopause is not currently considered under Disability Employment Law. So under the ADA in the US, it does not require, what that means is that it does not require accommodations from the workplace by law. That doesn't mean that it's not the right thing to do to provide accommodations for the benefit of your own business and organization. But yeah, it's an interesting topic. I think we discussed that, my perception on this is that the conversation is more advanced in the UK than perhaps it is in the US. So, it's great that you reached out and we can raise awareness for our audience on the podcast, which we've got audience members kind of around the world. So, just to close out would you have any... I know we tend to avoid advice right? Something that you and I probably share that we avoid advising people because we'll never know their personal circumstances, everyone is so uniquely different. We fundamentally believe that everyone has their own right answers that we try to help them find. That being said, for this audience, are there any insights or kind of general advice that you would share with people that are perhaps struggling with this change in their life right now, or even for those who have loved ones that might be struggling with this?

Sarah Utley 35:36

What I say here, you're not alone. There will be someone you know who's experiencing multiples, and be brave and seek help. I think those are the two things, talking is a great healer. Whether that's through coaching or counseling, with your friends, or your partner. Be bold, be brave, find somebody to talk to, whether that's HR at work, or some woman within your life. But you're not alone. There'll be lots of other people who are experiencing this as well.

Erica D'Eramo 36:15

And how about for in the workplace, with managers or for leaders? Do you have any kind of closing comments?

Sarah Utley 36:24

For leaders, I would say, put this on the leadership agenda and talk about it. Start talking to women about it. Start listening to women and how this affects them and start normalizing it. Conversation, it all comes down to having conversations, not being afraid to have those conversations.

Erica D'Eramo 36:51

Yeah, if we look at retention numbers and we talk about retention numbers, and companies are looking at why can't we meet X and Y metrics, and why our pulse survey results so poor. Go that next level and start asking the questions and finding out what's really going on with people. Some of this might be hidden under there and just not been discussed because of past stigma around discussing health issues or issues that create the perception of vulnerability, even if it's not really vulnerability. So yeah, I think that's great talking about it, opening up the discussion, and doing away with that stigmatization.

Sarah Utley 37:48

I've heard of employers who refuse to make changes to uniforms, so that women that come forward and say, I'm going through the menopause, this uniform doesn't allow me to breathe, and therefore when I get hot flashes it's really uncomfortable. I've heard there are some employers that hadn't been willing to change their uniforms to make accommodations for that. And yet, I take real heart that there are some other organizations such as, I believe, Marks & Spencers who have just said, you can order as many different types of uniforms to suit your needs. That's just showing an awareness that not everybody wants to wear the same clothes. People go through different stages of their life and need different things from something as simple as a uniform. That can be transformative to how a woman feels about working for that employer. It can change Net Promoter scores, simple adjustments. You don't need to wear your heart on your sleeve and go all out. Incremental, small changes based on listening to what women really want, will make all the difference to lift experiences of women and colleagues random.

Erica D'Eramo 39:11

Yeah, I agree. And again, while this conversation is centered women, we also want to be inclusive to have what we mentioned trans men, non binary individuals, this affects a variety of different people. But we can say that more than 50% of the population, slightly more than 50% of the population, will at some point in some way, likely experience menopause. So, that is a massive number of people. With that, I just want to thank you and ask how people can get in touch with you if they wanted to work with you or gain your insights either through consulting for organizations or coaching?

Sarah Utley 40:07

I run a business called Momentum People. You can get in touch with me through my website or my email address, which I will leave with you, Erica. I would really welcome people reaching out to find out more about the menopause and how I can help them on their journey to live along-side menopause.

Erica D'Eramo 40:30

Great, thank you so much, Sarah. So we'll have Sarah's contact info in the podcast notes. We would invite you to follow us on our social media platforms to kind of learn more about these topics, stay engaged in the conversation. Two Piers is on Instagram, Twitter, Facebook and LinkedIn. You can always visit our website if you want to reach out and that's www.twopiersconsulting.com. We look forward to seeing you at our next podcast episode which will likely be in season three in 2022. Thanks, bye.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

Diversity on the Board

Photo courtesy of Unsplash.

Transcript Below

Erica D'Eramo 0:06

Hello, and welcome to the Two Piers Podcast. Today we will have a special guest joining us from the business world. His name is Cliffe Killam, and he recently took the helm as Chairman of the Board of the Laredo Chamber of Commerce. And he has quite the story to share with us.

So Cliffe, welcome to the podcast.

Cliffe Killam 0:38

Thank you, Erica, for for having me. Excited, excited to be here.

Erica D'Eramo 0:41

Yeah, we appreciate it. So we really want to explore some of the stories that you have to share with us. But first, I wanted to get a little background on you. So tell us a little bit about yourself.

Cliffe Killam 0:56

Sure, yeah, happy to share that. I'm the president of Killam Development and Killam Oil Company. And we're a family owned, private family owned business. And I work here with my my father, we're based in Laredo, Texas. And we've been in business for over 100 years, and I'm the fourth generation. And my brother also works here as well in our field operations. And, yeah, we, you know, in terms of a little bit about me, I sort of have a little bit of a different background for the oil and gas industry. I have an undergraduate degree in English literature from Boston University, after I got out of college, worked as a field hand and kind of doing manual labor out there in the oil field. And said yeah, this is kind of a chance for me to kind of put the books down and kind of get my hands dirty. And that was a great experience, met some great people that way. And then I ended up going to the University of Texas, getting a master's degree there in a program called Energy and Mineral Resources, which at the time was housed in the petroleum engineering college and later got moved to the Jackson School of Geosciences. And that program is basically an interdisciplinary program that pulls from all the different disciplines that might be helpful to have a career in the oil and gas field. And from there, I moved to Houston, worked for a company called Wood Mackenzie, and did research and consulting there, and then got a job for a company called Harrison Lovegrove. The first day I started working there, we were, it was announced that we were acquired by Standard Chartered Bank, so became part of their corporate finance group. And we are one of the called top three, international M&A for in the upstream oil and gas business. And after that, did that for a little while, and then finally came home to, back to Laredo, and have been working here for about a decade.

Erica D'Eramo 3:00

Wow. So that's quite the journey. And I have to imagine that that journey has probably been through a lot of kind of male dominated spaces, a lot of oil and gas that I'm hearing. So that's what makes this kind of story that we wanted to talk to you about all the more interesting. So you took the helm as Chairman of the Board of the Laredo Chamber of Commerce, and you made a bit of a splash with some of your leadership decisions there. So tell us a little bit about that.

Cliffe Killam 3:35

Sure. I, I'm assuming you're referring to, I ended up appointing 10, 10 of my Board of Director appointees were all, were all female professionals, female leaders. And yeah, so really, really excited about that. You know, you know, basically every every chair gets an opportunity each year to, to make 10 appointments. And so I got my, my daughter was born on September 18th. And I was made the chairman on October 1st. And so we're, you know, so my, that was sort of in the back of my mind, and I went to the to our office over there and sitting sitting at the table with some of the staff and we were talking about, well, you know, what are some of the things I have to do now as chair and so we also have to go through these appointees. So I said, "Well, why don't we go, you know, kind of work on that?" And so as we're going through, you know, in my mind, I was trying to find, you know, people that were, you know, highly qualified professionals that also represented a diverse, diverse elements of our local economy. And so that was really what I was trying to do. And so I started kind of listing the names of people that I had worked with in some capacity on other boards are professionally and people that were highly accomplished. And so, you know, getting this cross section of the logistics industry and, you know, the real estate industry and, you know, healthcare and, you know, other other elements of, of the economy. And so, you know, we, we kind of looked kind of, as we kind of listed the names there, they just so happened to all, all six of them were were, you know, female leaders, and it wasn't really, you know, just sort of happened to shake out that way. And then that's where I kind of paused. I was reflecting on that, and I kind of looked up, and in the board room, there, you know, we have the, the Laredo Chamber has been around for over 100 years, and they have all the, you know, all the photographs of all the different previous chairs. And I asked, "Well, you know, how many, how many women have been chairs in the past?" And, you know, it's only been like, maybe, three, three or so, and, and then I was thinking about my daughter, and thinking about how she needs more female, you know, I want her to have more, you know, female role models in her life, and, and, and more, but, you know, more so. And so, yes, then we're there. Then I said, "Well, you know, in terms of the next four appointees that we have to make, you know," I said, "has anyone ever appointed 10 women before in our history, to this, to the Chamber board?" And so they said, you know, "No, that's never happened before." And I said, "Well, let's, let's make it happen." And so then I kind of asked, the staff just said, you know, you know, "I also don't want to be blinded, I don't want it to just be people that I know, you know, are there other other female leaders that are supporting the organization in some capacity on a grassroots level, that are really putting the time in that, you know, maybe I just happened to not know them very well. And that you think would be, you know, strong additions." So they made some additional recommendations. And that's kind of how we came up with our, our 10 appointees. And it's, it's really, you know, had a big a big impact. And, you know, even more so than that I, you know, could have imagined, and I can elaborate on that as well, if you'd like.

Erica D'Eramo 7:34

Yeah, absolutely. Let's explore that a little bit. But first, I want to understand why, why was it important to you to increase female representation? You kind of mentioned role models, etc. But was there anything else in that decision?

Cliffe Killam 7:53

You know, I wanted to, you know, I really, there was, there's primarily two things in my mind at the time. One was, I was thinking about my daughter, and you know so, she was sort of an inspiration for me to, and I wanted, and then in turn, use that so that she could be inspired. And I thought it was important, you know, when I was thinking, you know, 5, 10, 20 years down the road, you know, I hope that there's going to be more female chairs, photographs of them, you know, that had previously led the Chamber in the years to come. And so it's important for me to help to, you know, create some of those, you know, pathways. And then in addition, I also wanted to signal to the marketplace, that we were going to be doing things differently. And so, this was one way to basically say, we're going to we're going to do things there, you know, this is this is at the same thing I would say, too is, I mean, I, to certain degree, I, to be candid, I think I maybe didn't fully appreciate the impact that this would have in the community and at large. You know, I guess it's, you put 10 men on there, people wouldn't think twice. And so for me, I said, well, put ten women, I mean, it's, it's, I didn't really fully appreciate, you know, how that would make people feel in a positive way. And and really, it was, it's become a learning experience for me as I've had different female leaders come and confide in me and talk to me about different situations. And so it's really, it's not something that I think people often openly talk about, but I guess because of this, it really created a some additional conversations that helped me to appreciate I guess, how much of an impact it had.

Erica D'Eramo 9:57

Yeah, that's that's really kind of moving actually. So I, I'm interested in this, in this kind of selection that you went through, you spoke a little bit about your selection criteria, but I'm interested in how you think it might have differed, in this case, from how board members have been selected in the past that you ended up with a slate already kind of starting out with six members, or six selections that were already female leaders. So how do you think your selection criteria in this go around, may have differed?

Cliffe Killam 10:38

Well, you know, I don't want to I mean, what I would say is, I can share with you how I approached it, and, and I can't really speak to, you know, how other people approached it, but I can share with you mine, which was, it was important for me, to, to, the Laredo Chamber of Commerce is meant to represent as a non, it's a nonprofit that represents the business interests of, of its local economy, of the local, you know, the community that it represents. And so whatever is that kind of cross section of the economy, you want to find different folks that represent those different lines of businesses in there. So I made sure we had representation, I wanted to make sure we had representation in the logistics industry, and we in the real estate industry, I wanted to make sure that we had various educational institutions represented, higher education, as well as on a high school level that we had the, you know, hotel, hospitality industry represented, financial services. And, and so those are some of the different, you know, different industries that we had. And so I just picked different people and, you know, that either, you know, own their own business, or had been in a leadership role within a company. And, and that was sort of the criteria, and many of these ladies have, you know, I had worked with in some capacity in other nonprofits, or professionally and people that I respected and, and I thought, you know, they would add a lot of value, and really were, you know, got things done. And so that was, that was what I was looking for: people that can help. You know, you as the chair, you're, you're only there for, at least at the later Chamber of Commerce, you're only there for one year. And so I wanted to find people that would help me be more effective as a leader.

Erica D'Eramo 12:50

Yeah, that sounds like a really robust set of kind of selection criteria. So I'm, I'm curious, you mentioned that there's been a really positive impact, positive feedback. And I do want to explore that a bit more. But first, have you been confronted with any resistance around this decision?

Cliffe Killam 13:12

Um, you know, I, I wouldn't say that there was any resistance, I think was generally received extremely positive. I would say that there's maybe even a handful of people that approached me that it's not that they were resistant to it, but maybe they had a harder time putting it into, into context or into you know, perspective, and kind of understanding the decision. And so in certain ways, they've kind of said things that, you know, under, underminded, you know, sort of that decision, in a way, and again, I don't think there was any kind of, you know, malice per se, I think sometimes maybe it's just a generational thing, or it's, they just have a hard time understanding it, so, there were some comments that we're, you know, kind of oriented towards, you know, you know, sort of saying, oh, aren't aren't you, you know, you know, sort of having all these women around you, you know, isn't that such a nice, you know, sort of, you know, sort of more of a, I guess, I guess you say sexist way, you know, kind of oriented that way. And again, I think, you know, these are kind of typically older, you know, older people, I guess just sorta maybe had a hard time and I've had and it's not just from men, I've also heard from women. Very similar, you know, type of way of describing it, and I just think maybe, I don't think, you know, maybe I just sort of see you know, and see the best people, so I just I don't necessarily think they're coming in with a negative way of looking at it. I think it's just something that's a little harder for them to, you know, it's more of a generational type thing.

Erica D'Eramo 15:14

Yeah. And normalizing kind of seeing women in positions of power is, is part of the journey, I think, right, that we normalize it. And sometimes when I hear you talk about this, this story, or this, this journey that you guys have been on, it makes me think about this quote from Ruth Bader Ginsburg, and she said, "When I'm sometimes asked, 'When will there be enough women on the Supreme Court?'", basically, and she says, you know, "When there are nine." And people are shocked, and then she recounts, you know, but there, there have been nine men plenty of times, and no one ever raised a question about it. So when we normalize just seeing all men, all women, and nobody blinks an eye at it, that's when we kind of know that we've reached equality, perhaps, but just normalizing seeing women in positions of authority and power, I think, is part of the journey.

Cliffe Killam 16:11

For sure, for sure, that's, you know, we're you know, I mean, again, I go back to my daughter, you know, you know, so I mean, I want her to be this, you know, kick ass, you know, person, and let her, you know, I want her to do all the, you know, all the things that she wants to do in life and accomplish, and I think, you know, feel empowered, and to do the things that she wants to do with her life. And so, you know, I, like you said, I mean, there shouldn't be any boundaries or limitations for that. And so, I think that, you know, in order to, you know, create the world we want to live in, we got to do something about it now, you know, and so, and that's just kind of one small way, they just sort of, as you say, kind of normalize things are kind of, you know, it shouldn't be, I mean, in many ways, it shouldn't be a big deal, you know, and so and so I hope that over time that that's, you know, and, and also, I mean, I, you know, Laredo is a, I mean, it's got its own distinct culture and values. And so there's a little bit of machismo here and stuff. So, you know, I think also that kind of, you know, just sort of, you know, change, changing things up a little bit, and like you said, you know, normalizing those kinds of things.

Erica D'Eramo 17:23

It's interesting, because I think it's, it's actually pretty consistent across the US that purchasing power in many households is, in many cases held by women. Interestingly, and so, you know, what, to what extent did women's participation in the economy kind of play into your decisions?

Cliffe Killam 17:53

Um, you know, not so much. I mean, I, you know, I was really looking for accomplished executives, and, or people that represented other institutions that had leadership roles in different institutions. So, you know, like educational institutions, or maybe other nonprofits and to build those relationships. So it was, it was, it was more about, you know, finding, finding people that, that really were effective in, in making, making things happen. So that's, that's really what I was kind of looking for is that was kind of the main criteria for me was, you know, finding effective managers, leaders, people that are involved in the community, that are going to put the time in to volunteer, and ultimately, what, this is a volunteer organization, that they're going to be committed to helping us be better. And, and so, you know, this organization focuses on a lot of it is very much oriented towards government affairs. And it's on policy issues on a local level, a state level and on a federal level. And so we know we've written like, as an example, the Laredo is the largest, largest inland port in the country. $300 billion worth the trade coming through here. 18,000 trucks on the road, but Laredo also, you know, but under the previous administration, the bridges here were shut down for non-ess, quote, unquote, non-essential travel. And so you know, Mexican nationals coming to the US is a big part of our economy in terms of tourism and dollars spent, but we wrote letters in support saying, hey, look, this is really affecting the whole border region, and this is really important to us or when USMCA was happening, you know, write, you know, writing letters on that, having meetings on that. So those are the kinds of different issues, you know, with, with the, with the COVID happening now, you know, we're writing letters to and having meetings with our mayor and county judge and our governor, and talking about, you know, hey, you know, this is affecting bars and restaurants and hospitality industries and these other businesses, and, you know, what you're calling non-essential, you know, our people's livelihoods. And so, really just, you know, our job, you know, I think of the the mission of the Chamber is to, is to listen, support and advocate for our members and the business community. So that's, that's, and that was, so that's kind of, I was looking for people that were going to help, help me fulfill that mission.

Erica D'Eramo 20:55

Yeah, so really action oriented?

Cliffe Killam 20:58

Yes.

Erica D'Eramo 21:00

So what benefits have you seen so far, what impacts have you seen, I guess, of the, this kind of fresh slate of, of appointees?

Cliffe Killam 21:10

One of the things that I'm super excited about, and I was not expecting was that you the, the women that I appointed on there, you know, they got super fired up, and kind of, you know, it kind of really galvanized them. And so now, we're creating a Women Leadership Program as part of the Chamber. And so I'm really excited about that. They are, they're bringing in the other female members that are part of the Chamber. And so what they're doing is, they're looking at creating mentorship programs for female professionals, they're looking at also doing a speaker series to bring in different, you know, female leaders and thought leaders to come into town and speak to a female audience, but also a broader, you know, broader audience as well, but already, you know, kind of thematically on on some of those different issues. And then also looking at creating some fundraising events as well around recognizing female business leaders, and community leaders. So this has sort of emerged, it's this kind of really, you know, this, this import, now important part of the Chamber, and I'm absolutely thrilled about it, because it's, it's, it's my hope, and I think that will be is that this is now going to be a part of what we do in perpetuity. And so we're going to work really hard to maintain that. So I hope that, you know, my daughter will be able to be, you know, mentored through this program, you know, you know, 20 years from now and be able to, you know, go to some of these different, you know, lecture series, and all these other things are happening. So we're, you know, they've really, it's been really embraced by the membership. And it's actually helped us to recruit more female members and professionals. And so it's just this this virtuous cycle has been created. So it's really, it's really been very cool.

Erica D'Eramo 23:27

That's awesome to hear. That's really heartening. I think a lot of times when we hear stories like this, or just any effort towards increased diversity, and representation, there's always the challenge of like, is this a philanthropic effort? Are we doing this to be nice to women? And so I wanted to hear a little bit more about that, like, what are the actual business impacts of this? And it sounds like this is not just to be nice to women, right? This is actually improving the accessibility of the Chamber of Commerce and improving the operations. Have you seen any examples of kind of the way you've done things previously, versus the way you're doing them now changing?

Cliffe Killam 24:16

Well, I think that yeah, I mean, I would not I, you know, I, I'm, I'm, you know, I really just wanted the best, the best people to be part of the organization. And that's really, for me, that's the only thing I really kind of mattered, it sort of ended up happening that this sort of thematically, you know, kind of came together. And it's been really great to see that, you know, as I mentioned, you know, this Women Leadership Program has been created. I would say that, the, they're the, the, a lot of the female board members are, I think, just really fired up and really vested in there. And I think it also has inspired some of the, you know, male board members too and got them excited to see, hey, we're, we're changing things up. So I think, you know, overall, it's really just kind of helped to create more commitment and more more drive into getting things done and, and, you know, like many businesses and nonprofits across the country, I mean, it, COVID has been, you know, devastating. So, I think at a time when there's been a health crisis in our country, in certain ways, you know, economic crisis, and, and, and has also affected, you know, families and people in so many other ways, the isolation and so forth. I mean, I think this has really, you know, given us a sense of focus and purpose. And so I think people are just really excited to make a difference through the Chamber. And that's really been one of my goals is to, you know for the Chamber to become a really, not just some kind of a ribbon cutting organization, but to really be a platform to effect meaningful, positive change. And so that's, that's really been what I've been, you know, really focused on trying to deliver on.

Erica D'Eramo 26:27

Yeah, that, I mean, that's very inspiring, you're making me want to sign up for my local Chamber of Commerce. So hopefully, you know, we, this podcast gets heard by other people who wouldn't previously consider that and would, might think to themselves, like I could be a benefit to that type of organization, and I just never thought about it before. So thank you for that. So I'm interested in what the transition onto the board looked like, a lot of times, I think, and maybe, you know, either confirm or correct for me, um, organizations, like any other type of business are often self perpetuating with sort of bringing in informal contacts or, you know, people that you knew from your you know, your, your clubs, or your school or your friends or your net, your close network, people who look like us, act like us, are in the same circles as us. And sometimes it can be a bit self perpetuating. And that's how we end up with maybe like the boys club mentality of people that already are in our circle getting appointed to some of these roles. So in this case, you went kind of beyond your circle, and brought in new people who maybe didn't have that informal network. Have you found that there were any sort of trans, there was any transition support that was helpful for people coming into this that might not have sort of been operating in this circle before?

Cliffe Killam 28:12

You know, um, not really, I would say that, not really, I would say that, you know, all these women that were appointed, I mean, they're all very accomplished and experienced, and they've been on, you know, boards before and have been in, you know, high, you know, in executive type. So, if anything, I'm asking them for advice, you know, so, you know, I'm saying, you know, this is, you know, this, this is sort of a new, newer thing for me. I mean, I, this is the first time I've been chair of a, of a nonprofit. And so, so yeah, I, no, I kind of come in with a sense of more of humility and asking them, you know, you know, you know, how can I, you know, run the meetings more effectively, or how can I, you know, you know, how am I doing, you know, and how are we doing and kind of, you know, trying to chart out these different, you know, milestones and things we want to accomplish as an organization. So, you know, more than anything, I think it's really me, you know, just kind of talking to them getting their feedback to be quite, you know, candid and so, you know, the, really that's, you know, there's been probably one or two people on there that are, though my appointees that maybe are a little bit less experienced. But, so, you know, I wanted also to strike a balance. I mean, I didn't, you know, I wanted to also have some women in there that may be, you know, they were sort of, you know, rising stars, if you will, and so, you know, they you know, give put them, you know, give them an opportunity to to you know, get involved, rather than kind of, you know, sort of having to, you know, maybe takes longer someone's, you know, life, whatever to get into some of these different organizations on a senior level. So. So there was a little bit of that, and I and I, and I'm assuming that, you know, there's a little bit of internal mentoring there and so forth, but they're also holding their own too. And they're bringing fresh, you know, fresh ideas, to, to the meetings and to kind of some of the different initiatives that we're working on. So it's been, it's been really gratifying. So if anything, I've been trying to listen and learn from them. Actually,

Erica D'Eramo 30:46

Yeah. Wow, that sounds great. And that internal mentoring can be so valuable as well.

So I'm, I'm curious soon what you think the barriers to entry were before? Like, why is this the first time that you've had a board of? Or that you've had a full slate of appointees that included so many women?

Cliffe Killam 31:11

You know, I'm you know, it's hard for me to, to answer that, you know, I think that I don't want to cast any aspersions or anything like that, or make any assumptions. But I mean, I think that I'm sure it's, as you mentioned, I mean, sometimes people make choices that they're more comfortable with, or maybe they're more used to, or this kind of cultural things, I guess, sometimes. But, you know, I really wasn't focused on, you know, why people made those decisions in the past, I was really kind of focused on, on on the future and helping to, to make a positive impact, you know, going forward. So that was really kind of the mentality I was trying to take and just just try to be, you know, positive and really try to make a make a strong impact there.

Erica D'Eramo 32:19

Yeah, that does sound very positive. So do you think that this will be a turning point, kind of for a bit of sustainable change or representation? Do you think that maybe this won't be such a rare occurrence going forward?

Cliffe Killam 32:35

Well, I hope that's the case. I mean, that's what you know, that's what I was so encouraged, by this effort to create this new Women's Leadership Program, because, you know, the idea is that that could be coming in on an ongoing program, so there's their, you know, our, our board members, and our members are putting a lot of time and energy into creating a mentorship program and, and bringing in speakers and looking at, you know, recognizing different female leaders, so, you know, putting in sort of the foundation for that, so that this becomes a strong part of the Chamber, going forward, and, and therefore, kind of institutionalizing that in a way where, you know, it will be, it's just going to be a normal part of, part of the, of the nonprofit.

Erica D'Eramo 33:36

And love that, yeah, I love that idea of kind of institutionalizing, putting in the systems in place, so that it's not just left up to our human brains that are obviously subject to our own biases or heuristics. So I think that's great.

Cliffe Killam 33:54

Yeah, I think, you know, sometimes it's, you know, just to help you create that, you know, consistency, and sometimes people don't necessarily, I mean it's not that they, it just helps to reinforce that, you know, like you said, it helps to put it, you know, kind of structurally into, into the organization.

Erica D'Eramo 34:12

Yeah, absolutely. So, were there any, you know, final thoughts that you wanted to close with? And we really appreciate your time here, and this has been really insightful. So, any any last, like leaving thoughts that you want to leave us with?

Cliffe Killam 34:29

Well, you know, I think I, you know, like I said, it's been very insightful for me to, to you know, make these choices and then seeing you know, how how it was received in the marketplace and, you know, it's really helped to help me kind of enlighten, enlighten me more. I've had a, I've had an employee, come up to me, and tell me how much, it really meant to her and it really got her excited. And also, you know, wanted, wanting to join the Chamber. And she talked to me about her sister who's a doctor in Austin and how, you know, how people always think she's the nurse, you know, or she's the, you know, assistent in some way. And so, you know, I think that that's, you know, those aren't, those aren't conversations prior to this that anybody normally had with me or, you know, shared, shared those kind of things with me. And so I wasn't really as aware of some of the different challenges that that that women may face. And so, for me, it became a really powerful experience, you know, to have different women, you know, confide in me and, and talk to me and share different stories and how it was, you know, how that decision was so meaningful to them. And I don't think I really fully appreciated the impact until afterwards. And so for me, it's been very moving. And, and so I've really wanted to sort of embrace it. And, you know, like I said, I want to be the best leader that I can be, the best father that I can be, the best husband that I can be. And so I mean, I think that, it's, you know, this is hopefully it was, it's just one on one small step. And so, and I hope that I'm really excited to see what future things happen in the Chamber and excited to help you know, you know, be a part of that.

Erica D'Eramo 36:47

Yeah, that sounds just so impactful and valuable, as a business leader, because this is one part of your life, but you're, you're a business leader, in the other parts of your life, as well. So to have access to those perspectives, just seems so valuable and enriching as you go through your career. So I'm curious for anyone listening to this, who thinks, oh, I might want to get involved in my own Chamber of Commerce, what would you recommend? And where can people find more information about the Laredo Chamber of Commerce?

Cliffe Killam 37:22

Sure, yeah. If you can just go to the laredochamber.com and you can look, you know, look us up there. And then you can also always Google the US Chamber of Commerce, and most most communities, most cities have a Chamber of Commerce. And yeah, I definitely recommend looking into that. There's a lot of great programs there to help champion you know, the business and and also get involved in, you know, different policy issues that affect businesses. And it's a, it's a great, it's a great American institution, and nonprofit. So yeah, definitely encourage everyone to, to look into it and get involved.

Erica D'Eramo 38:11

Awesome, thanks, Cliffe. For our part, we appreciate our listeners tuning into this and they can find any information that they're looking for regarding Two Piers on our website as usual, which is twopiersconsulting.com. And then they can follow us and our stories and future podcasts on any of our social media platforms. So Facebook, LinkedIn, Twitter, Instagram, we're on on all of them. And yeah, thanks for spending some time with us today. Cliffe, we really appreciate it.

Cliffe Killam 38:46

Thanks so much, Erica. Enjoyed the conversation.

Macroeconomics & COVID-19

Photo courtesy of Unsplash.

Transcript below:

Erica D'Eramo 0:04

Hello, and welcome to the Two Piers Podcast, Season Two. I'm your host, Erica D'Eramo, and today I'll be joined by special guest Sandy Leeds. We'll be discussing some of the macroeconomic impacts of the COVID-19 pandemic, particularly on both women and communities of color. And we'll also explore some ways for us to increase our understanding of the markets.

Sandy is a faculty member in the finance department at the University of Texas at Austin. He teaches an acclaimed Macro Markets class, which is pretty renowned amongst the business students. While Sandy is a proud Crimson Tide fan, we do happen to share a Longhorn connection. Prior to joining the faculty at UT, Sandy managed money for a private money management firm. He was one of four portfolio managers responsible for approximately $1.6 billion of assets and he holds the Chartered Financial Analyst designation. But that's not all. In addition to money management experience, Sandy also has significant legal experience. He's a member of the Texas State Bar and has tried over 100 cases. He also participated in the regulation of the securities industry and is a published co-author of Investment Analysis and Portfolio Management.

One of the reasons that I wanted to have Sandy on the podcast is because of his efforts to make the understanding of markets and their movements accessible to people who may not have the opportunity to pursue an MBA. Sandy puts out a free weekly market update that analyzes and distills movements and happenings in the markets; you can sign up for that newsletter at sandyleeds.com. He also hosts a Macro Markets course that, while not free, has open enrollment, so no university affiliation is required. So Sandy, welcome to the podcast. Thanks for joining us.

Sandy Leeds 1:59

Thanks, Erica. Thanks for inviting me. I'm excited to be here.

Erica D'Eramo 2:02

So we have been seeing over the past year, some of these major impacts of COVID-19, on the markets, on the economy, and really some profound and unfortunate impacts on women and communities of color when it comes to employment and engagement in the workforce. So with the Two Piers mission, that is to create diverse and reflective workforces by unlocking, cultivating and supporting talent. These impacts are, you know, something that we wanted to explore a bit more, and we thought that you would have a great perspective on it.

Sandy Leeds 2:42

Well, it's great. I mean, these are, these are really important issues to me. So I love what you're doing.

Erica D'Eramo 2:48

Thanks. So I mean, one of the things we've seen in the news headlines a lot lately is around the metrics and statistics on women's employment numbers, and us kind of backsliding, something like 30 years with some of the the numbers that we're seeing of women in the workforce. So I was hoping that you might be able to kind of explore that with us and talk about what, what is what is the problem that we're seeing here?

Well, I think that the really big picture problem is that women have been more impacted by the pandemic than men. It's somewhat unusual, actually, that typically in a recession, men are impacted more, because you tend to see very cyclical things drop, you tend to see construction drop, which is dominated by men. You see, manufacturing slowdown, again, tends to be more heavily dominated by men, particularly in the past, but, but certainly, still a fair comment. But when you look at this, this pandemic, if you compare the jobs report that we got the first Friday of February, which tells us about our January employment, and you compare to one year earlier, the prior January, which was really pre pandemic, for the US and for the US labor market, women have lost about 5.2 million jobs since then, and men have lost about 4.4 million jobs. And so women have been impacted more. And the reasons for this are number one, obviously the service industry or the service sector, that women dominate the service sector and the service sector often requires close contact, and that's what's been shut down the most. And the other issue is that women bear a disproportionate amount of the responsibility for kids, for the home, for parents. And that's not to say that it should be that way, but rather that is what we're seeing. And so, you know, the result is when our schools are closed, it's, it's impacting women, even more. And, you know, one of the things that, that I always tell people is, you just look at, like the really basic idea of when you have people who are divorced, or people who never got married and have kids, the vast majority of the time, not all the time, but the vast majority of the time, what you see is that the kids end up with the mom. And, and then, you know, even when people are together, what you, you know, what you tend to see, and I asked my students this do long before the pandemic, I would say, how many of you would say your primary caregiver was your mother, rather than your father? And, you know, certainly the majority, and things of things have certainly changed over time, you know, I can look back to I was born in 1964. And, and I think back to, I lived in a very middle class, neighborhood, and, you know, up in New York, and Yonkers and, and it was all the dads that went to work, you know, I mean, I was out in the street playing, you're probably when I was 19. So when I was six years old, 1970 b, all the dads, and they'd all come home at five o'clock, and very few of the moms worked outside of the home. And so, but bottom line is that that's what we see. And so, you know, that's where the job losses have been. And, and, of course, you know, what we're worried about is just, you know, the, on a macro level, we worry that we're losing all this human capital, you know, we're losing the output of all of all these people, men and women, but you know, especially women, who's what we're talking about here, and productivity, and, you know, the problem that once you become long term unemployed, you sort of lose your connections to the workforce, you end up going back, it's harder to get a job, it's, it's harder to get fair pay, um, you know, we increase financial security, and you know, it, one of the things that that we have to worry about is that when these things happen, you sort of then re-victimize the victim. And what happens is that, then people consciously or subconsciously start to say, "Oh, well, you know, women have other responsibilities. And so they're going to be less reliable, when we need when we need people to work." Right? And that's, you know, that's, that just perpetuates problems like that. So, so, you know, we have a lot of problems. And as you said, you know, bringing it back 30 years, I think a lot of those views were going away, or hopefully, they're improving slowly, I think, you know, the younger generation, so much different than, than the older generation, but I think, you know, those, those the problems, and I think this really has furthered them or brought us back to them.

So we've kind of taken the mommy track and exacerbated it.

Sandy Leeds 8:09

Yeah, I think. Absolutely. And I mean, you I think one of the things that's, that's interesting is, when you look at wage inequality, you know, gender inequality with wages, um, you know, it's interesting to see, like, what the research shows about that, you know, it shows that, you know, obviously, the, the disruption in career when you take, you know, a year or two years off, or, you know, many women take five years off until you know, until the kids ready to go to school, that type of thing. That's certainly one issue. But, you know, other issues that we see are that, employers, whether or not a woman is intending to have kids start to assume that they will. Right? And, and that's, you know, the, you know, probably the most problematic, but, you know, it's sort of interesting, though, excuse me, because what you see is, um, in that research, a lot of other things that, you know, are sort of gender based, and that is that, like, particularly married women tend to not accept a job that requires moving. And, but then they move because the husband accepts a job somewhere else. And then what you have is someone who is trying to get a job without a job, right? When, when you move because of your spouse, and that's really difficult, and it's really difficult to get the correct match as far as skill set and economics and to get what you were making before. And you know, those are those are all you know, really big problems. And they, you know, if you think about it now, for a lot of people, men and women, but particularly women, you're going to have sort of being long term unemployed and looking for a job without a job. And and again, we know that's all problematic. That's all been part of the wage inequality that we've seen in the past.

Erica D'Eramo 10:10

Yeah, I think, I guess it was Einstein that said, there's no force greater than compounding interest. And I always think about that when I think about five years out of the workforce and missing out on those raises for five years, and then you extrapolate that across an entire career. And what is that? What does that do to the income inequality and kind of the final tally number of what somebody makes? And so when it comes down to who is going to take a break to take care of the kids, and you're looking at the finances, I mean, historically, we're showing that that wage gap kind of comes into play and that decision making so the person who has the higher wages kind of stays in the workforce, and the person who has the lower wages, financially, it makes the best decision for them to do the primary caregiving. So it kind of exacerbates it. Yeah.

Sandy Leeds 10:56

Yeah, absolutely. That, it's, it's more than just your income, income compounding obviously, right. It's, it's just sort of that human capital in general, the relationships and you know, just everything else. All right, I think I think it's, it makes it really hard. But I grinning potential.

Erica D'Eramo 11:13

Yeah. So what do you think some solutions to this could be?

Sandy Leeds 11:18

Yeah, it's such, it's such, these are such hard issues. But, you know, I think there are a ton of things that that we think about, I mean, I think the first thing that jumps out at everyone, and you hear from everyone say, is childcare, we need better childcare. You know, that's right now, why so many people, men and women, but again, particularly women aren't able to work right now. That, you know, we've, we've got to make childcare cheaper, we've got to make it more accessible, we've got to make it more attractive for people to work in that industry, too, right. It's a, you know, notoriously low paying job. You know, we've got to, with childcare, I'd also say, it's such an opportunity to improve our Pre-K education, which is really lacking. And, you know, it's one of the differences in, in households and I, I remember, when I started studying a lot of these issues, if you had said to me, oh, "What's more important, going to a good, you know, kindergarten, or going to a good college?" I, my thought was, "Oh, you know, you want to go to an elite college." But, you know, all the research shows, it's early education that matters, it sets you on this path to for success. And, you know, some kids are read to, you know, all the time; they grow up in a household that, that values education, if they're not, this is an opportunity to, to get them reading and to, you know, to get them to see sort of the joy of books and things like that. So I think childcare is an obvious issue, we've got to make it more accessible, and more affordable. Um, you know, we've got to, we've got to figure out how to incentivize companies to, you know, to make it easier for women to stay in, in the workforce. We've got to change the culture of companies, you know, we, we have, one of the things that we see, again, and not a comment on whether this is right or wrong, but just the fact that it is, is that, you know, women are taking all this responsibility or bear all this responsibility for you know, sick parents, kids, whatever it is. And so the result is that in a lot of these industries, that are jobs that require face time, you know, when you think about law and banking, you you don't see as many women at senior levels. And so, you know, there has to be more flexibility, you know, we have to reduce the importance of that, that face time. You know, there are little cultural issues at work that um, you know, that we have to sort of accept these gender differences that... you know, and I think this is an ironic one, but but what I always think about is that, you know, when women make mistakes, they tend to apologize, you know, funny thing, and men don't. And the, you know, these are general observations and, and I think that what you find is that apologizing is seen as a sign of weakness, right, which is insane. I mean, you know, I certainly...

Erica D'Eramo 14:31

I know, (laughter)

Sandy Leeds 14:32

You know, I certainly hope I always apologize when I make a mistake. I you know, I certainly teach, you know, all my kids, you know, my my sons and my daughter to always apologize, you know, we need transparency and financial reports, we need to understand, um, you know, the numbers of, of, you know, gender equality and wages. Um, you know, maybe what we need are incentives, tax incentives for companies. You know, we inset production in the US, why would you not incent, equality? You know, I think customers have to care, right? I mean, it has to be something that, that we care about. And I think, I think in certain fields, clients do care, right? They, they want to, they would like to do at least see diversity, they would like to see that it's not all men, you know, we, we know, I was an asset management, and we know that men and women think differently, and, you know, you're going to understand some products better than I am, I'm going to understand some products better than you do, because I use them, or you use them, right, and you see the world differently. And, you know, we all know, I don't have the numbers, you know, at the forefront, but, you know, we all know, the amount of home purchases that are done by the woman in the house, like, you know, I, you know, I'm my wife, you know, takes care of, like buying so much of the stuff I you know, I'm involved in, in so little of it, in many ways. And so, it's so important to be thinking that way. We knew that asset management, but it's got to be, it's got to be valued. You know, we've got to figure out better ways of, of, you know, helping women to get to the top, even if their career is disrupted. And, you know, I think that, that, you know, one of the things, and we've seen this at, you know, my university is that, you know, we've got to do wage surveys and make sure that wages are fair, um, you know, even in, you know, sort of liberal universities, you will find that there is inequality and, you know, inequality certainly makes people leave the workforce, if, if I'm not being treated fairly, if I'm not being respected, I will leave, I think, you know, I think one of the, you know, most important things, though, like, for a really long term perspective, is, we've got to, we've got to make women and, and, really, what I should say, is girls aware of jobs that they can get, when they get older, and when they, you know, when they go to college, and or, you know, whether or not they go to college, and after college, it's, you know, one of the things that that we tried to do, I ran this MBA investment fund at Texas for about 13 years. And one of the big problems we had was, it was all men, it was all men, you know, we would get, we would get all these applications from men, we, you know, we sometimes, we got no applications from women, sometimes we'd get one or two. And, you know, part of it was that... so, so, a woman, I worked with, Laura Starks, who's unbelievable, but you know, just just incredible what she's done. But she and I started this, this little conference for all the MBA women, right when they arrived at school, and to show them that, look, this is a field that's dying, to have women in it, um, that it's not just investment banking, where you do have to work insane hours, which, you know, again, a lot of women had already decided, look, I want to have a family and a career and banking is not going to work. Asset Management, you're not a better stock picker by, you know, working till 11 o'clock at night. And so we tried to sort of show that and we bring in, you know, very successful women from the field. But what we realized, it was already too late, it was already too late, they had gotten here. And they had already decided, you know, I mean, it's hilarious to see that, it's like, you get here, and you see the guys going to finance and the women go into marketing. It's like, you gotta be kidding me. I mean, it's, it's like 40 years ago, you know, and so, so the point is, it's too late at that point. And so we've got to start much earlier, and just sort of convincing people that look, this is a career for you. And you know, you're gonna see I mean, you see these little changes, you know, there there were, you know, women referees in the in the Super Bowl, you know, there was a woman from Vanderbilt who, you know, kicked in a college football game, those things they really do matter, I think, but but I think just on a more practical matter, you just you got to see women money managers, clients want to see it, little girls need to see it. And I think, you know, that's sort of my long tirade, but that's, you know, that's, that's, I think, what you know, what will really change things.

Erica D'Eramo 19:33

Yeah, we say the same issues in engineering as well. By the time you get to university, your pipeline has already diminished so much, nevermind by the end of university, but you raised a couple of points that I, I think are really interesting, in the context of COVID. So the face time issue, I'm wondering, with us, being forced into remote working, how much we are, perhaps, challenging the concept that you have to be in the office meeting clients face to face for X number of hours per day in order to be successful in this role. Do you think there's any opportunity for change there? Perhaps like a small silver lining on the COVID experience?

Sandy Leeds 20:19

That's interesting. You know, one of the interesting things that I've seen, you've probably seen the statistics, too, is that people are working more, people are working more from home. And I don't know, if they're just reporting that they're working more, or if they're actually working more, but I found that interesting. But, you know, I think that I think that this whole remote working is is a double edged sword. I, you know, what I'm really afraid of is, you know, a lot of these places are saying, look, you can go work from anywhere, you know, there are lots of firms in San Francisco in particular, they're saying, go work for anywhere, we're gonna adjust your pay down, if you're not in San Francisco, but but you can go live at the beach, the mountains, whatever, whatever you want to do. That sounds great. I, my real fear is this, that you are now going to be sort of a cog in the wheel, that you are, you know, are we going to promote you to a high level? Or are you you know, Erica in the mountains that handles accounts receivable, and that's sort of what you're good for. And that scares me, for everyone who's who's working remote

Erica D'Eramo 21:22

Proximity bias? Yeah.

Sandy Leeds 21:24

Absolutely. I mean, I think that you know, who's gonna get it, who's gonna get promoted, I worry will be the people who are working in headquarters. So so that scares me. But I will tell you this. I think that the the real benefit, could be particularly for women. In that, I think, as we accept remote work, I think that fits in with the flexibility. And and I think that, that, the other thing that is really helpful is if you think about that research, that I was mentioning that one of the one of the big causes of wage inequality on a gender, from a gender perspective, is the fact that women often move because of their partner. And, and they are then looking for a job without having a job. And that's just brutal to your wages, especially if you if you're at a higher level, where it's really hard to get those wages. Well, if you can at least keep your job, then from there, you can search for a job with, with the fact that you are now still making good wages, you're in a completely different position. And so I think from that perspective, it's it's a real positive, I think, the flexibility that it may offer so that we don't lose people from from the labor force, and also the fact that it will help you negotiate on a much, much better basis, I think that those things are, are possibly going to be the silver lining from all this.

Erica D'Eramo 23:01

Yeah, I think addressing that wage gap is just, and the root causes of that wage gap are, are really key to the retention factor, because of the very decisions that families have to make, right. And it becomes a compounding issue of, you know, maybe the woman isn't making as much because of wage discrimination or not, I'm not advocating for herself enough or having to take, you know, a few years off to be a primary caregiver. And then when you move that that's how the decision is made about who is the leading spouse in the lagging spouse, and so it just compounds on itself. So yeah, really interesting thoughts.

Sandy Leeds 23:43

Absolutely. I would also say this. I mean, it seems to just from my reading of the research that you're right, that that that does drive that sort of, you know, who's the higher earning and who's low earning, and so who do we move for? But I think that the research also shows that it's more than that, that it can that sometimes the husband is the lower earning spouse, but that is whose job we move forward to. I mean, I mean, I, you know...

Erica D'Eramo 23:56

Hm, societal as well as

Sandy Leeds 24:10

I think they're all issues and yeah, no, but I do think that's changing. I do think

Erica D'Eramo 24:15

Yeah. Well, I, you mentioned a comment about what I interpret as inclusivity, right, of women apologizing and that being seen as weakness, just some of these ways that we are shaped by society that represent in the workforce. And to me, I think, we hear a lot of talk about diversity and the importance of diversity. And we know better decisions are made by teams that have diverse perspectives, which you mentioned, that the idea of inclusivity to me is so important if we're going to bring these people into the workforce, but then punish them for behaving in the way that they've been socialized their entire lives. So if we truly want diverse thinking, it has to be more than just statistics, right? It has to be do we welcome people who apologize? And do we welcome, you know, humility or team building or some of these things that we typically associate with female behaviors? are we celebrating that? Or are we? Are we just really celebrating typically male behaviors and wanting our, our statistics to look a little different?

Sandy Leeds 24:22

Right, I think you're absolutely right. And I and and i think that what we forget is that clients customers often want the traits that we do tend to see more in women than men, that a willingness to say, you know, I don't know everything I don't, I don't understand everything, the willingness to apologize for mistakes, empathy. You know, I was reading an article recently about a private wealth management firm that caters to women. And they basically were saying, you know, what, what women clients want is empathy. They want someone who understands what their situation is, and, and you know, that the women investors were more likely to want their money to be doing something that was good, it wasn't just about having the most money, and, you know, and, and so, you know, I think I think those are all important.

Erica D'Eramo 26:22

That's fascinating. I, one of my tests, when I, when I do approach a company, and they talk to me about their parental leave, and how it's an example of them helping women particularly, I always ask, to what extent the men in the company are taking that parental leave as well, if it's available to them. And it's fascinating to me, because men are not taking parental leave, even when it's available, even when it's paid and free. So that's, that tells me very clearly that there is a there is a price or there is a stigma around the leave itself. And so I always wonder, you know, it might be paid parental leave, but what is the non-monetary price that's being paid? Because even when we neutralize the monetary aspect, men who can take leave are not necessarily taking it?

Sandy Leeds 27:14

Absolutely. I mean, you know, it's, I think that in the older generation, right, and I put myself in, in there, and I'm not saying I think like this, but I think in the older generation that is seen, that's seen as soft, right? It's that that's not what you do to succeed. And I think that I, you know, I think I think that is changing over time. And you know, I think I actually am more encouraged about gender inequality than maybe other issues. But I that I think, I think it's moving in the right direction. But I think that, um, I think it is really tough to get guys to do that. And it's, and especially in some industries, rather than, than others, and, you know, I agree with you.

Erica D'Eramo 28:05

Yeah, so this is a message to all the men out there who have parental leave coming up, please take it because it helps reduce stigma for the women who really do want to take for parental leave as well. So it's better for everyone. And those are prime prime weeks and months with the new addition to your family.

Sandy Leeds 28:22

Erica, I'll make a quick parenting comment about that. And that is that we have, we have three kids, and you know, the the, the third one was adopted. And so basically, that meant that she was bottle fed. And she was really the only one that I got up with on a regular basis. I got up every night with her. And what a huge difference I think it made. I mean, it was great for me, but I just think it's great for the relationship. And it's one of the things I tell all my you know, students as far as my my guy, the male students is that it makes a huge difference to miss that, miss out on that sleep. It really pays off. So anyway, there's my little commercial, my parenting commercial. Thank you.

Erica D'Eramo 29:09

So beyond just some of the impacts to women working in the workforce, we've also seen impacts as far as you know, other underserved communities, communities of color, etc. They've been particularly hard hit by COVID from an economic perspective, from a health perspective aspect. What are your thoughts on that topic?

Sandy Leeds 29:33

Um, you're absolutely right. I mean, I think that, you know, we we've sort of all read about the problems of that, and you say people of color, that's such a broad category, really. But when we particularly when we think about people, you know, who, if you just think of lower income, living in crowded housing and work on the front lines and not having access to health care. You know, not having assets that are benefiting as home prices are increasing and stock prices are going up. And, you know, we're seeing problems with less access to technology, so kids aren't attending school, from lower income households. You know, all those things are, are huge. And, you know, I think that I think that it's not just the pandemic, I mean, these these things have been, you know, these been issues for forever. And so, you know, I think those are the things that we're, you know, we're trying to figure out of how do we do better? And, you know, I think that a lot of these are the same sort of solutions, that, you know, we need better Pre-K, you know, for schools, we need, we need to figure out how to stop kids from from dropping out. We, you know, I think one of the biggest things is, in most parts of this country, we really do fund schools with local taxes. So if you're in a poor area, there's going to be poor funding. And, you know, we're one of just a handful of developed nations that spend less educating our low income, lower income kids than our higher income kids. That's crazy, like, how do you expect to have mobility if that's if that's what we do? Yeah, we need to make it safe to go to school. And in a lot of lower income neighborhoods, that's a dangerous walk. And, you know, we've got to, we've got to figure that out, we got to figure out minimum wage. Right. I mean, you know, that's a big issue. Right now, the Congressional Budget Office just put out a report this week about that. And, you know, it's interesting, because we know that if you make workers more expensive, you will have a loss of some jobs, right, that ultimately, you'll find that people, places will find a way to automate and that kind of thing. But the reality is, like, if you look at it, and that's what you've sort of seen that the CBO report basically says, you know, the idea of raising minimum wage is dead, because, you know, we could lose a million jobs. You know, if you look at it, it also says that, you know, we'll move like, you know, 27, will, like 10 million people out of poverty and 17 million people are likely to be better off because they were making a little bit more than minimum wage, and it's going to be raised up. And it's like, everything has a trade off, you know, everything has a trade off. And, you know, one of the things, I'll just also say that, what we've seen is that a large percentage of the country has already raised the minimum wage, right? The federal minimum wage is $7.25. But many states and cities have said, "No, you've got to pay more." We haven't seen, we haven't seen that loss of employment. And so, you know, we've got it, we've got to figure that one out. And it is it's a difficult issue, because you have really high cost standard of living in you know, San Francisco, you've got low cost of living in Mississippi, and can you you know, can you raise it to $15. And maybe it needs to be adjusted another way. But, you know, I think that's a big issue. I think, I think you you've got to have people in power, who want to help force change, I think of David Swensen is a very famous money manager, he manages Yale's endowment, and he's sort of seen as the, the guru in that field. And, you know, basically, he, you know, sometime in the last few months, he basically said, "Look, when we farm out money to money managers, we're going to be looking for diversity, you know, we we need to promote this." You know, we need role models, just like, like we talked about with the the gender issues, and, you know, you've sort of talked about engineering, but, you know, we need to do a better job of early explaining careers, you know, I think we need to get people of color near the money, right, that that to help, you know, wealth accumulation. I saw some statistics about financial planners, the CFP designation for financial planners, which I don't have, but, but just sort of looking at it. And it's like, I saw that 23% of financial planners are women, of course, you know, women make up just over 50% of our population. Black CFPs, 1.7%, you know, Black Americans...

Erica D'Eramo 34:18

That's striking.

Sandy Leeds 34:19

Yeah, black Americans, 13%, right, of our population, Hispanic CFPs, two and a half percent. That's 18% of our population, right? I mean, you've got to, you know, you, that that's a huge thing. You got to promote this wealth accumulation. And you've got to be near people who understand it, and know how to do it. And so that's really important. You've got to promote, not just like hiring, but training and mentoring and retaining and how many people are getting to senior levels. You know, we again, we need more transparency on all these things, and we need to make sure that, one of the things I I think that has certainly improved is we're getting a lot of lower income kids a lot of kids of color into colleges, but then from there, are they getting the same opportunities? You know, just I just look in the business school, when when you grew up with a dad, who was a banker, maybe a mom, but more likely a dad, who was a banker, or you know, whatever, you know how to dress, right? You know how to act in these interviews. Those are the things that if you didn't come from that, how would you know? I mean, I can literally remember I mean, this is this sounds so funny. This is, you know, this sounds like Saturday Night Fever or something but, but which that's probably, you know, a reference way before your time, Erica, but but the bottom line is, like, I remember when I was a first year law student, and I was interviewing, and after my interview, I was in the same city as my older sister who's five years older, she was like a second mother to me. And we're sitting at dinner, and she looked across to me, I was in a suit. And she said, "Alright, you have got to wear an undershirt underneath your shirt." And I was like, Yeah, I didn't, know, it's like, you know, she was lucky, I didn't have like, my collar open with my gold chains. But the bottom line is, that that's what you need. Right? And, and, you know, like, I was fortunate, because I had her five years ahead. And, you know, she was the one who told me "Look, in college, you've got to take classes from these three teachers, because they're nationally known, you've got to excel in those classes, you know, get to know them, and have them write your letters of recommendation, because that's the only way you're going to get into a top law school." Right? Who knew? I would have never known that, right. I didn't want to know any teachers. You know, I just I was just getting through. And so, you know, we need that kind of mentoring. Especially because a lot of us, you know, didn't have it unless, unless we were lucky enough to have, you know, a sibling that went ahead of us. And, you know, and I think something like you said earlier, at the end of the day, people have to appreciate that, that diversity results in more creative solutions, that it attracts clients. You know, just just from a business perspective, you have to remember that people of color are going to be the majority by 2045. And, you know, I think it's just, it's a matter of, I think most people, it's, it's not a matter of wanting to discriminate, or anything like that, I think it's a matter that most of us just tend to like people who are just like us, you know, that they look like us, they act like us, they have the same backgrounds, like, you know, you meet someone, it's like, oh, this is my long lost brother. And you know, and that's a tough one that, you know, and I think, you know, you see places like the NFL trying to say no, you know, you've got to interview others, you know, people who don't look like your brother. And yeah, you know, it's tough. But I think that when you have these natural tendencies to do that, and I think we all do that.

Erica D'Eramo 38:08

Yeah, I mean, there are many books written on heuristics and how biases work, and they're there in order to help us survive as a species. And also, they don't necessarily drive the best decisions for a business. So that's why we need to put more systemic processes in place so that we're not just relying upon our own biases for who gets the promotion or who gets the informal mentoring. You're, because you're right, there are so many unspoken rules. And this is across anyone who's not been in the tent, you know, in the inside club. They don't necessarily know those unspoken rules, they don't necessarily know to wear the undershirt or who to talk to or which, which, you know, club they should join, to hobnob. So. Yeah. How are we going to address that in a more systemic, repeatable way, that's not reliant on our human brains, which are, you know, wired for survival, but not necessarily, for the best overall outcome.

Sandy Leeds 39:13

I tell you another story with that. And the point of it is, I think sometimes you have to say uncomfortable things. Like when I was at a, I was at a big law firm. And when we were recruiting, what we would do is we would take a recruit to dinner, and then the next day, we would interview them, and basically the young associate, which was me, and, you know, I was one of a billion of them, but but the young associate would go pick up the recruit and take them to dinner and we'd meet a partner, often a partner and their spouse there. And I, we had this recruit of a woman and the partner said to her at dinner, "Why did you go to this other school rather than the University of Texas?" We were Dallas firm. And she said, "You know, I didn't get into Texas." And, you know, she didn't realize it, but at that point the interview was done. She wasn't getting a job. And, you know, the correct answer was, you know, "This school had this program, you know, program x, and that really attracted me. And I thought I was gonna get this really unique experience," and that kind of thing. And, you know, when I drove her back to her hotel, I told her, I said, you know, I said, "Look," I said, "Please don't repeat this," because the reality was, I would have been in a lot of trouble for telling her this, I said, "You're not going to get a job, you know, the odds are against you, because no one wants to hear that you didn't get into Texas." And I said, "You know, you're gonna, you're gonna have so many opportunities at these big firms," because he or she was on Law Review and that kind of thing. And I said, you know, here's, here's how you need to answer this. And, and, you know, I really questioned the whole drive, whether I should say this to her or not, and I did. And it was funny, because she wrote me a long, long letter, you know, handwritten letter, several months later, and, and basically, we just like, "Thank you so much, I would have repeated that, you know, so many times," and she told me all the different offers she got? And, you know, I think so sometimes you have to say those uncomfortable things to help people. And you know, it's one things I was always happy that I did. But I think that's, you know, that I was sort of doing what my sister said to me, although my sister had no trouble saying anything uncomfortable.

Erica D'Eramo 41:37

Yeah, I think this is one of the things that I worry the most about with the chilling effect of some of the, the narrative that we're hearing after the #MeToo movement. I mean, we're still in the #MeToo movement, but some of the commentary that I've heard about how men are just, like pulling back, and not engaging, rather than just engaging respectfully, it's, it's like, oh, I'm just gonna not take any risks. And it deprives people, women of women, particularly women of color, just anyone who needs that guidance, that kind of clue into what the what the silent messages are. I feel like they're being deprived of that whenever we sort of say like, "Oh, the safest thing is to just not go to dinner with that person or not have a beer with that person." They're missing out on kind of that, that little like, "Hey, this is how this needs to go. You wouldn't have known that unless I could be really candid with you." So, yeah, yeah. I mean, I think we'll, we'll have to find our way through it, I just hope that people are still willing to have the openness, the brave conversations and to be corrected, sometimes, you know, it's I mean, it, it can be uncomfortable, and sometimes we step on a line, and sometimes we get corrected, and, and we have to not, like run away with our tail between our legs and just come back and, and keep engaging and keep growing. So yeah, it's it's tough, but I'm, so I'm curious if there's any, any other thoughts you have on, you know, some of the some of the more systematic things that, from a macroeconomics point of view, we should be looking at, just with COVID now, in our hindsight, as we go forward?

Sandy Leeds 43:35

Well, I mean I think that from from a macro perspective, I think we need to figure out how we can avoid this happening again, you know, I think that, you know, from what I'm reading, the, the most important thing you can do is shut everything down right away. And, you know, in other words, and, you know, this sounds terrible, but it's, you've got to shut down for a few weeks right away, you've got to, you've got to actually close the borders, you've got to do everything, it just has to, you've got to get rid of the virus, because once it gets out, it's done. And, you know, there was nothing we could do after sort of the initial decisions. And so, you know, I think I think we've got to figure this this one out, because it certainly could, could happen. Again, I think that's, you know, I think that's a really big, big issue. You know, I think I think that this, you know, what everyone says about COVID is that it's accelerated so many of the trends, you know, the, the colleges that are in trouble are now in more trouble now. You know, we're so much more ready to do a meeting by Zoom rather than travel across the country. Um, you know, I think that, that it also may be accelerating inequality, income inequality, and maybe better said wealth inequality where, you know, those of us with houses and stock portfolios are doing great and as That's

Erica D'Eramo 45:00

Assets are going up.

Sandy Leeds 45:02

You know, I said several times in my class last semester that we would feel a lot different about this if stocks were still down 35% like they were in March. But, you know, the reality is that when it's not where um, you know, I don't really feel the pain, I don't feel if I in fact, I'm spending a lot less money right now. And, you know, I think that's an issue. I think one of the big macro issues that we're facing right now is, I think that we're doing all the stimulus spending, all these people have, the majority of our savings are much higher, and we've got $1.6 trillion more savings than we would have otherwise, because of all the government transfers. I personally think that, you know, we need to be doing a better job of giving money to the people who need it, rather than just in general sending out checks, you know, if you're making $100,000, and you're still working, I'm not sure why we should be sending checks, we need to be able to support the unemployed for longer periods of time. And, you know, I think it's easy when we have a crisis to spend money, but you got to remember that this is going to mean that we do less infrastructure spending in the future things that are going to, you know, make it easier for people who live in a low income neighborhood to have transportation to jobs, right. I mean, like things that really matter, you know, rather than just sending money to people who already have jobs, you know, I think I think part of what we're doing. And, you know, it's and this is a particularly easy time to do this, to say this, because the Republicans did it. And now the Democrats are doing it. Like, I think I think those are some of the really big macro issues that that we're seeing.

Erica D'Eramo 46:48

Yeah, yeah, the infrastructure comment is an interesting one, like, what are we doing for the long term to make, to make to dull the impact perhaps, of future crises like this, and having some of that underlying infrastructure is probably critical. So I am curious, for on an individual level, what your advice would be on how, you know, we can maybe break down some of these barriers around the perceived boys club of investment and talking about the markets and talking about our stocks, because I still find it somewhat intimidating to be honest, even after an MBA and after working in mergers and acquisitions. I, it's not a conversation I readily will jump into for fear of kind of not saying the right thing or being seen as, you know, investment illiterate. And yet, if you asked me to talk about a compressor, I could talk for days. Yeah, so what can we do for individuals like me that want increased awareness vocabulary?

Sandy Leeds 48:04

Well, first, let me say that if you find someone who wants to talk about a compressor for several days, let let me know, so I can stay away. The, the, and the reality is, like, I don't even know what a compressor is. But the you know, I think that I tell you, this is gonna sound funny, but I think the best thing someone could do is, they could every so often watch CNBC, and when they watch CNBC, they should have a notebook. And they should write down what all the experts say. And then look at that notebook a month later, and you'll see that just as often as being right, they're wrong, that, you know, it's, it's like when you hear an expert tell you who's gonna win a game, you know, a football game or a basketball game, that kind of thing. You know, I trust that they know a lot more than I do, that they played the game and that kind of thing. They're, they're wrong just as often as they're right. And so, you know, I think that's the first thing to do to get confidence is to realize that none of us know what's going on. You know, it, no one would have told you on March 23rd, that we were going to have this huge rally, right and stocks and that's, that's when the market bottomed or how the financial crisis was gonna end or anything like that. So I think the first thing to realize is that the biggest difference is that some people can really speak with confidence and others are humble enough to realize that they don't know. And, you know, I think from there, that what you have to do is find something that you can read that doesn't take you know, 100 hours a week, and that you can just sort of keep building and I will tell you that this that like students would always say to me, what should "What should I be reading?" And one summer, you know, when I had a couple days, I took a couple days to do nothing but asked that question, like what should I tell the students to read because I grew up reading the Wall Street Journal. You know, it's just sort of what I was used to. But there's so much now there's so much online. And, you know, I think that number one you got, you got to find what you like. But I will say I'm a huge fan of Barron's, Barron's comes out once a week it comes out Saturday morning, it's it's dated Monday, um, it actually online comes out at about 10 o'clock, you know, I guess 10 o'clock, Eastern Time, nine o'clock Central roughly, I can sort of see the articles. And the reason I think that's, that's a great source is that the Wall Street Journal and Financial Times, all those places, they tell you what the news was, like what happened. Barron's tells you how the markets reacted to the news. And I think that's what we all want to learn. I think one of the other you know, one of the other best piece of advice that I give students who want to learn this stuff is: it's great to read read read, but a great thing to do is instead of reading so many articles, and not retaining that much, is outline a few articles. And when you do that, you sort of see how ideas fit together. And that's, that's sort of that really careful reading that helps you learn. And, you know, you're not going to know everything all at once. But it's just that, that inquiry that that drives you to, to a higher level. And you know, that that'd be my best advice. But I think also, um, you know, just to realize that most, no one knows what's going to happen, if any of us knew whatt was gonna happen, if any of us knew what was gonna happen to Bitcoin or Tesla, you know, or GameStop at one point, I mean, you know, we'd all be fabulously wealthy, and but every so often, some people get lucky, but it's hard to repeat. And so you sort of have to realize that they're, you know, they're just some basic concepts we have to know about diversification and investing. And, and, you know, the most important thing is to participate. And I tell you, one last thing it was study, I saw that, that basically, they asked people how knowledgeable they were about finance. And what you found was that a lot of people assess themselves as very knowledgeable. And you know that tends to be you know, that confidence tends to be a male trait. And what happens though, is that the people who are super confident, they invest, and I would argue that, even if they do dumb things, and they underperform the market by a significant amount, they're still usually earning a positive rate of return.

Erica D'Eramo 53:00

And this is confirmation bias.

Sandy Leeds 53:03

People who don't, don't invest, because they think they know nothing, they get zero. And so, you know, I think that you really have to think about the importance of that confidence and getting and getting into the game. Because there are simple things you can do with just to putting your money in index funds, having a really long term perspective. You know, I like even at my age, where my might term isn't really as long, and I'm risk averse, when I do is I think of my money and you know our money in our family as our kids money. And they have a really long time horizon. And so that lets me have that perspective that you don't really need much more than that.

Erica D'Eramo 53:46

Yeah, that's, that, and those are, that's accessible. I think a lot of people perceive that it takes wealth to learn about wealth, it takes kind of the rich dad or the, like I said, the, you know, Executive MBA experience or whatever. And, and actually, there are publications and there are ways that we can, there's TV, there's CNBC, and there are ways that we can just increase our own vocabulary, understanding and literacy around investments in the in the markets. So yeah, thank you so much for your thoughts on that. Are there are there any other kind of closing thoughts that you had or recommendations?

Sandy Leeds 54:31

I don't know that we have anything else I think, you know, these are these are such interesting issues. I you know, they're issues that I read about all the time and you know, want to learn more about and so so I appreciate you talking with me about these.

Erica D'Eramo 54:45

Well, one resource that you have not recommended but I will recommend is signing up for your kind of weekly markets review that is very informative, and just really helps me distill down the key things that I should be understanding from what's happening in, you know, in the week. So again that you can sign up for at sandyleeds.com, and, and any other kind of events or courses that you're hosting, I think you put that up there as well and inform folks, so it's a good resource.

Sandy Leeds 55:20

I do. Well thank you very much.

Erica D'Eramo 55:22

Yeah, thank you, Sandy. We appreciate it. And for Two Piers, you can find our information on any of the social media platforms. So we're on Facebook, we're on Twitter, Instagram, and LinkedIn and you can always find us at our website, which is twopiersconsulting.com.

Women in Leadership Conference - Recap

Photo courtesy of Unsplash.

Hi! Welcome to the Two Piers podcast. I’m your host, Erica D’Eramo. During our second episode of season one, we’ll be recapping the 20th annual Rice Women in Leadership conference. 

Ally Cedeno, founder of WomenOffshore kicked it off with a rousing welcome. She and her team did an incredible job pulling together speakers and content that struck a great balance. The sessions were realistic and honest, while remaining inspirational and energizing. We can’t cover all of the speakers and panelists, but we’ll try to cover a large portion of it. 

The opening keynote was masterfully presented by Ann Fox, a Marine Corps veteran and the president and CEO of Nine Energy Services. Her humor, humility and honesty made for a powerful, and at times heart-wrenching discussion. She reminded us that having a diverse set of perspectives can make the difference between life or death at times. 

From there, we had a choice of four morning panel sessions - I attended the Founders Corner: From Vision to Adventure. The panelists included Jillian Fink, CEO and Co-founder of OcciGuide, a medical device company; Kathleen Perley, CEO and Co-founder of Decode Digital, Diana Murakhovskaya, co-founder and General Partner, The Artemis fund, and Erin McClarty, Founder, Erin McClarty, PLLC. Side note: we’re big fans of Erin over here at Two Piers and we’ve been working with her for some time now. 

We learned from Diana that in 2019, only 2.8% of VC money went to companies founded by women, however 19% of all exit value comes from female founders. We clearly have some work to do.

One key theme was around what constitutes success versus failure.

Kathleen discussed the definition of a win and identifying the right KPIs or key performance indicators. In fact, testing out ideas and knowing something’s not right - that can be a win. Erin focused us on identifying what success was for us, and whether we’re working toward that. One helpful tactic is to identify what you’re “not” going to be. 

There was also a theme around structure, including blocking out time and setting boundaries, with yourself, your clients and your loved ones. It’s important to set aside time for reflection and strategy. Within your daily structure, we must make sure there’s a focus on what makes money, with an understanding that it needs to be both short term and long term revenue. The panelists also discussed setting aside a separate space or office to work in. Finding a coworking space or partner can also help add structure. 

One great question from the audience that we felt was particularly insightful: for over-achievers that are not used to having risks, how do we face potential failure? Erin suggested that communities such as the one at the Women in Leadership Conference, create the space to fail and share. Kathleen credited her academic struggles with dyslexia for teaching her how to get comfortable with failure and move on quickly. It doesn’t hold her back. Jillian recommended doing your research such that you have the confidence to go your own way. 

In parallel with the Founders Corner, was the Lessons Learned in Leadership panel. This included the following panelists:

• Lynda Clemmons, VP sustainable solutions at NRG discussed the value of listening to where people are at

• Sruba De, Vice President, Global Retail Insights & Solutions, Mastercard Advisors, discussed what makes a good leader: powerful communicator, ability to influence, thriving outside comfort zone. Sruba also discussed the importance of having our own set of personal directors: someone believes in you, mentor to sponsor, biggest critic. These should be people that have directly seen us work.

• Tandra Jackson, Managing Partner, KPMG discussed servant leadership and putting the client first

• GiGi Lindberg, VP and Commercial Relationship Manager, BBVA and Founder and CEO, Meritaj discussed tactics for, and importance of, responding rather than reacting. 

Midway through the day, we took a break for a networking lunch and met some of our fellow attendees. 

The afternoon included a selection of workshops, and Two Piers facilitated a session on Tough Conversations. So why this topic? Difficult conversations affect everyone. Fundamentally, we have a few choices - we can try to avoid them, we can handle them poorly, we can handle them well. We all know people that can handle them well. We discussed our intended learning outcomes:

• Recognize what makes difficult conversations difficult

• Identify tools to prepare for them

• Understand ways to navigate confrontation and de-escalation 

• Determine how to close out and resolve these interactions 

We won’t re-work the workshop here, but keep a lookout for a future podcast dedicated to navigating conversation. We had some great questions from the end, and have picked up some ideas for how to make the content even more valuable. 

While we were in the Tough Conversations workshop, Delifina Govia was facilitating her workshop called “How to Live for 300 Years - Maximize Your Personal and Professional Life” Delfina is a partner at Veritas Total Solutions, and we’re big fans of her here at Two Piers. Her interactive workshop focuses professionals on balancing their personal and professional lives. This was far from a lecture - it was a working session that even involved a bit of math. If you missed out on her workshop at the Women in Leadership Conference, she’ll be hosting a free, extended version of the workshop on March 6th to celebrate international Women’s Day.

Following the afternoon workshops, there was a panel discussion on The Frontier of Diversity and Inclusion in Business. The panelists included:

Deborah Byers - E&Y’s Americas Industry Leader and also E&Y’s Americas Oil and Gas leader

Janelle Daniel - VP HR, Community Relations and Sustainability at Transocean

Amy Dalton - SVP Americas, BCD Travel

Larry Perkins - Assoc. VP HR and Diversity Organizations MD Anderson

The panelists discussed where they saw the future of diversity, and it’s clear they all see it as a central tenet of doing business. 

Deborah raised the issue of unspoken rules and suggested we acknowledge them and either eliminate them or get them into the limelight. 

Janelle discussed the implications for industrial environments and the need to address technical environment, such as adequate PPE or suitable changing facilities. 

Larry observed that MD Anderson has always been good on paper. We loved his assertion that diversity is a fact, whereas inclusion is an act. We also need to lift as we climb and bring future generations with us.

Deborah noted that it takes 20% of a workforce to change before we start noticing a difference. You can look great on paper but we need to focus on the right roles. 

For the closing keynote, Sandy Asch discussed the Roar Leadership Experience. She stressed  the importance of being purposeful, transparent, calm and courageous. She also spoke powerfully about velcroing yourself to your purpose. This can help you stay on track, and also  energize you when you hit challenging times.  

We wrapped up the day with a reception hosted by Dean Peter Rodriguez, whom we want to thank for his support this year and in years prior for the Women in Leadership Conference. Another shout out to Ally Cedeno and her team for a great lineup and excellent content. 

Thank you for joining us on our second podcast. You can expect another installment in two week’s time. In the meantime, you can find more content on our social media feeds on LinkedIn, Twitter, Instagram and Facebook. As always, feel free to reach out via our website: twopiersconsulting.com.

Have a great week and we’ll meet you back here soon.

Welcome to our Two Piers Podcast!

We’ve included a text version of our podcast for accessibility.

Our introductory podcast gives an overview of who we are and what we do, along with some context and background regarding our philosophy. We  promise to keep these podcasts funny, engaging and relevant because your time is precious, as is space in your brain and on your playlist. So this is for you to use.

First, some background about myself. My name is Erica D’Eramo and I’m the founder and CEO of Two Piers. My career started with a Mechanical Engineering degree from Penn State University. I’ve spent nearly two decades in the energy industry, working domestically and internationally, in field-based roles and office roles, including engineering, operations management and finance. I saw, first hand, the challenges facing women, particularly those starting out in field-based roles. Following a three-year offshore rotational assignment in Angola, I decided to take a sabbatical and start this project, (Two Piers), to provide resources and support directly to women working in male dominated environments. During that sabbatical, I also conducted a study called Spot the Difference which was sponsored by BP and executed in conjunction with QuayFive - a consultancy based out of the UK.  We worked with 12 different FTSE 300 companies spanning multiple industries, each with international reach. We examined the career choices and motivations of employees and how they differed based on gender. We also examined the effectiveness of diversity and inclusion initiatives. There were some very interesting findings, which we will discuss further in a future podcast. 

So why gender diversity as a focus? For us, it relates back to engineering. We here at Two Piers hate to see waste, especially when it comes to human potential. Not only are we putting up unnecessary barriers for more than 50% of our potential workforce, but we also make it more  difficult for them to fully contribute when we have non-inclusive workplaces, or we evaluate them against how well they can conform to a masculine norm. Additionally, we see waste in the stressors this can put on team dynamics when the workforce begins to believe that gender outweighs meritocracy. This sows discord, distrust and disenchantment. We also feel that gender diversity is deeply misunderstood. Efforts to diversify a workforce and create a more inclusive environment are often seen as philanthropic initiatives as opposed to strategic business imperatives in today’s competitive, fast-changing world. In addition, gender is simply one facet of diversity, however it is more visible than many other aspects of diversity, and thus can act as an analogue to open the door to conversations on ethnicity, nationality, sexual orientation, socioeconomic diversity, neurodiversity, etc… We at Two Piers want to foster an intersectional conversation about diversity and gender.

So how are we tackling it? We are taking a two-pronged approach. We are committed to alleviating the current pain points of gender imbalance for those currently in the workforce by supporting individual women through workshops, coaching and resources such as this podcast. Some examples of focus areas are:

• Navigating pitfalls of masculine workplaces

• Setting and asserting boundaries

• Handling difficult conversations and confrontations

• Individualized coaching and planning

Some might ask whether a focus on equipping women with tools and tactics is paramount to victim blaming. Why should women change to fit the environment, as opposed to the environment changing? Well we fundamentally believe that women should not, in fact, have to change, however, we like to use the analogy of going to Mars. In the short term, we need some special toolkits  in the first place - you can consider these our psychological oxygen tanks, until there are enough successful women and enough systemic change to create the atmosphere that we want and need. To turn a blind eye out of squeamishness is to reject reality and set people up for failure. At the same time, equipping women with survival tactics is not enough. We need to address the systemic root causes by working with organizations.

The organization and corporate work that we do focuses on creating systemic and sustainable change. It also supports and sustains the resources that we provide to individuals. When working with organizations, we first focus on understanding the true baseline using leading and lagging indicators. We also examine the effectiveness of current initiatives and what some of the unintended consequences may be. From there, we determine an action plan and measures for how to reach the group’s goals. We don’t just look at the numbers and percentages, but rather take a more holistic approach. 

So why a podcast? We wanted to make some of our resources and content easily and readily accessible, particularly for those individuals who can benefit immediately. Perhaps it’s difficult to attend a workshop in person, or perhaps someone’s not not ready to ask for help or scheduling a coaching session. Podcasts can remove some of those barriers to access. It also gives businesses an opportunity to sample our offerings and see whether our ethos is a good fit for their company.

Podcast episodes will focus on two different areas. We will look at strategic topics and systemic issues around gender diversity in the workplace, including how we can affect change and how organizations can create diverse and inclusive environments. We will also have podcasts focused on more tactical subjects for professional women. Topics will range from  travel tips to taxes, pet adoption to car buying. We will look at what works for working women.

We want to thank you for joining us for episode one of season one of Two Pier’s podcast. Be sure  to follow us on social media. You can find us at LinkedIn, Twitter, Instagram and Facebook, or on our website at twopiersconsulting.com. We’ll be putting on a workshop this Friday at the annual Women in Leadership Conference at Rice University, here in Houston, TX. The interactive workshop is  focused on navigating challenging interactions and confrontation. It’s one of our favorite topics! Tune in next Wednesday (Feb 19) for a recap with insights from the event.

We’d love to hear  from you. Reach out to hear more about our offerings or provide suggestions on  requested content you want to hear about. Have a great week! We’ll meet you back here soon.