This week we are joined by Ruth Cooper-Dickson, positive psychology practitioner, trauma-informed coach and Managing Director and founder of Champs: a mental well-being consultancy. Ruth helps us explore the current state of transition facing many organizations as we see an increase in office-based work. We discuss the challenges facing both companies and individuals as they navigate this new territory and one thing can be certain: things will never return to how they used to be. Ruth brings her wealth of knowledge about positive psychology as she discusses the implications of the current transition on mental health. Whether you're a leader in an organization or an individual contributor, we've got some gems for you in this episode.

Transcript below:

Erica D'Eramo 0:12

Hello, and welcome to the Two Piers podcast season two. Today we have Ruth Cooper Dickson joining us from the UK and she is joining us to talk about the transition from working from home back into the office and what that might look like. So Ruth is a positive psychology practitioner. She is a trauma informed coach. She's also the managing director and founder of Champs which is a mental wellbeing consultancy. And we are really lucky to have her joining us today.

Erica D'Eramo 1:00

So, Ruth, welcome.

Ruth Cooper Dickson 1:02

Hello, thank you for having me, I'm excited to be here and chat to you about this.

Erica D'Eramo 1:07

Yeah, I mean, you're kind of this is absolutely your wheelhouse. And when we thought of tackling this topic, you were sort of the ideal person. So I'm really glad that you had space to join us today. So maybe it would be helpful for our listeners to hear a little bit more about you and what your your kind of practices and you're offering and, and why this is a topic of interest to you.

Ruth Cooper Dickson 1:32

Hmm, absolutely. Well, I'm the managing director, as you said and founder of Champs and we are going into our sixth year this year, this business and back when I started Champs, it was through my lived experience of mental ill health as a senior leader in an organization. As you know, how we first met many years ago, I was in a leadership role actually in in an inclusion consultancy, so that was always part of the space I'd worked in, I'd worked in the corporate sector for several decades. And my lived experience of very real burnout and breakdown following a divorce, which I now know is a traumatic experience. But at the time, it was like don't worry, I've got this, it's fine. And sort of six years ago, in the UK particularly, talking about mental ill health at work was a real taboo, it was seen as that invisible disability. And people just didn't really engage with it. So I was banging my drum talking about mental ill health at work and not many people really wanting to listen and then the dial started to shift we saw more acceptance. Very big corporates getting on the front foot with their understanding, leadership understanding that actually well being as a key business driver really sets precedent for future success and growth and performance. And we see so many research that is that happy, healthy individuals, employees are much more productive and shut... Yeah, for Champs just grew from there purely because the business started to evolve. And I myself you mentioned I'm a positive psychology practitioner. So I undertook my MSC and applied positive psychology and coaching psychology at the University of East London. And I did that full time whilst whilst building Champs. And for me, it was really twofold to undertake that qualification, one to have the academic underpinning to what what we do as a business, which is so important. And we've always been evidence based. We've always been driven by science and research. And it's not kind of that ivory towers thinking or just something we just make up. But also the fact that it was applied, it was very practical, which is an approach I've always had right back from being a project manager when I worked in engineering. So there's a real kind of flow there around why that was important to me Champs. And my colleague, Tara Kent, who's the CEO of Champs came from an organizational change leadership background. So we created something I think which is very powerful because it's positive psychology, it's well being. Myself and Tara plus our facilitators, many of them are Mental Health First Aid practitioners or instructors. So we have a real mental health ethos to what we do. And where we really kind of found ourselves in the thick of it was at the beginning of 2020, obviously with the pandemic. And it was a really interesting time for us as a business because we were actually delivering Mental Health First Aid training for a client who's based within a hospital setting. And that was right at the beginning of March. And I did the first of what should have been a series of sessions. And it was all very kind of odd. As you know, it was very kind of weird times, just at the real start here in the UK of COVID-19. And all those contracts were suddenly pulled because we couldn't do in person training. And obviously, the client was focused on what was happening internally within the hospital to support the running of the hospital. And it was all thrown up in the air. And as a small business, my first thought was let's batten down the hatches. Because I guess this is twofold, right? There's me as a business owner, and also me as the role that we do to support organizations with their well being strategy with their kind of more strategic thinking their workshops, their training, the whole package we're holistic. And it was like right batten down the hatches really look at kind of how we can mitigate any hard sort of change to Champs in terms of people losing jobs, or you know, just really figuring out what that would look like in a very quick kind of, let's evolve the business very quickly. And then we just brought everything online. And I'm really fortunate that the majority of the team really are great at being online trainers and facilitators, and they took that in their stride. Organizations, were really interested in either one group of people who were already with us who'd been on board with champs for a couple years or right since the start of my journey. Setting up champs, were immediately emailing calling what can we do, or we've already got this training booked. But obviously, we need to shift the focus, you know, focusing on keeping people well, and how they're going to settle in at home working, checking in on each other in the early days. How do you use technology to to do the self care check ins, all of that good stuff. So that was great to see. Plus, it also brought a whole load of new clients who were always had well being or mental or mental health at work on their agenda. But it wasn't a priority. It was all this is a nice thing to have. But it's not top of the leadership agenda. And suddenly it was, which was great. So it gave them that push that incentive if you like, which often we see with a trauma, if something happens in the market, the global market that pushes an agenda up to the top of the list, right, it's sometimes it takes that push to do that. So it did which was also good to see. And then some new clients who'd never even thought about well being or thought about what it meant to be well at work, having now lost our employees very quickly from people going from being in the office, to all of a sudden working at home, especially organizations that had no flexible work policies really or didn't encourage working from home. So that was the last year for us. And we really, as a business got burnt out, we were exhausted ourselves. I mean, I just saw something on an article earlier on about physician heal thyself. And, you know, we were just on our knees pretty much by Christmas of 2020. And what we came back to, was here in the UK organisations really struggling in like what we had as lockdown three that January to March months, because of winter and the pandemic and just lockdown. And it was very different to lockdowns in the summer, we had a beautiful UK summer, sort of came very early in March, April, almost coinciding with with a pandemic. And suddenly people were at home all the time. And it just felt fatigued and exhausted, as you know. So it's been, it's been a real, it's been a real journey in the last year of understanding mental health and well being at work, but in a very much more complex and nuanced way that it was sort of pre pre COVID times, I think. So I think it's been an interesting one for organizations who've probably never had this on their radar to even start thinking about. That was a very long winded answer to what your question was, but hopefully that's given your listeners a little sense about how we are what we do and kind of like really I think like lots of people, even the business we're in, but as a small business, like really had to quickly adapt and evolve and to keep to keep our doors open as well. And also to make sure my team is supported and well, to do all the support they're doing like the holding the space for others, which has been it's been a hard it's been a hard journey to navigate as a leader myself, I think.

Erica D'Eramo 9:45

Yeah, because as the leader, you're playing these multiple roles of facilitation, creating the communication pathways, supporting everyone making sure they have the resources they need, and that looks totally different when you're doing it remotely versus in person. Different tools, different interfaces. Yeah. I think that we're at this very intriguing point right now where as different countries are kind of coming out of the lockdowns and companies are looking at returning to work in different ways. It's this uncharted territory that the pandemic showed us that working from home was possible that there were, it was much more complex than people had previously understood. There were the people who said, like, oh, no one will be productive from home, people will just like watch TV all day, working from home is a privilege. And then they realized, oh, when people are working from home, actually, we need to be worried about the reverse, because nobody has boundaries, and we're seeing burnout. And we're seeing like, the kind of the mixing of home and, and work that means that no one ever gets relief. And so it really turned that concept on its head. And now that there is an ability to go back to an office setting, how companies navigate that is sort of a big topic of debate. And there's we're seeing a lot of a lot of decisions being made a lot of pushback one way or the other. And so this was a topic that has been coming up amongst my network and my clients, who are both leaders and kind of individual contributors. The leaders trying to navigate how do we keep the business running, you know, maybe we weren't as efficient in working from home as we could have been in the office. So we want to get back to that right away or from a from like, an individual contributor perspective, people who suddenly have to rearrange, you know, childcare responsibilities that they've had for a year now that don't suddenly go away, because they have to be in the office all of a sudden, and there's a lot of anxiety, there's a lot of anxiety on both sides of it. There's a lot of anxiety from the leadership, and there's a lot of anxiety from the individual contributors. So that sense of anxiety, you know, people sort of asking me, like, I don't know what's gonna happen, and, and how do I, how do I plan for this? It seemed like a good topic for us to discuss. So I was thinking today, we could talk about, you know, both from an organizational standpoint, what is best practice look like? What are some of the things to consider when looking at a return to work or once you're able to return to work? Do you return to an office like, what what does that look like? And then, separately, maybe looking from an individual perspective, for those of our listeners that will be subject to this kind of change? What are your thoughts on...

Ruth Cooper Dickson 13:06

I'm smiling, because it's like, that's a huge topic like it's huge, right? Let's see if we can do it justice in this short space of time.

Erica D'Eramo 13:14

We probably can't, we probably can't. I mean, we could write, I'm sure people are literally right now writing theses on these topics, right? Like...

Ruth Cooper Dickson 13:22

Yeah, I know, people who've graduated from the same program as me because I do academic research, as you know, and I'm involved in several papers at the moment and not to do one was actually from my own research taken a coaching program from last year happens to be last year. But there's I know lots of people who did their dissertation thesis off of their MSC on COVID times. So you know, living, working all the complexities around well being, positive psychology.

Erica D'Eramo 13:55

Yeah.

Ruth Cooper Dickson 13:56

Makes it interesting.

Erica D'Eramo 13:58

So I mean, I guess this would be like a little whet the palate of people who want to learn more. So I guess, what are you what are you seeing right now in your networks and kind of your space?

Ruth Cooper Dickson 14:12

It's been really interesting because I've had this conversation with a couple of my leadership team, people that that work in Champs and peers who have similar style businesses or work in a similar space, but slightly different in their offering. And the market kind of went a little bit quiet around, say for example, looking at mental health wellbeing style training workshops, about a month ago, it kind of went a little bit quiet. So we had May which is... May's Mental Health Awareness Week here in the UK, I know it's Mental Health Awareness Month in the US. So it's generally a month that's kind of given a lot of attention. But I think people had spent and the media particularly like I heard this from a PR and comms expert that the media a bit almost a bit done. In some cases where there was a lot of mental health conversation, it's almost been so much in the kind of the mainstream media as well. And I think also because of this hybrid working and understanding what's next. And actually, we saw a similar pattern here in the UK, last June, when we were waiting on the announcements from our government as to whether they would be everybody coming back into the office again, so we thought it was going to be for several months, and then everyone would be back in by summer, September latest, which obviously didn't happen. And the market went really quiet then it was almost like it was this collective breath around what's next. And it has felt a little bit like that I think in lots of respects. I also think that leadership and I mean this is my assumption that leadership and organizations have been thinking we've done so much on mental health and well being training and support the last 12, 13 months, actually, now what we want to focus on is getting people back into the office. So it's like we've done that we've done we've done that training, we've done that support, let's let's focus on leadership or kind of hybrid leadership. If you're any kind of transformational leader, authentic leader, a brilliant leader. Well being is actually at the heart of what you do anyway. Right? I mean, it kind of is pretty much part of that. Because again, going back to why I said that I started Champs and we know that all of that good stuff makes a successful organization. And mental health and well being isn't just about the check in it's more about meaningful work, it's communication, it's... you know, there's so many facets to it. It's much more than okay, we're going to deliver some Mental Health First Aid training, of course.

Erica D'Eramo 17:01

Yeah.

Ruth Cooper Dickson 17:02

So it's almost like at the moment there is this whole shift towards right, we need to focus on hybrid working. And I think leaders and organizations often because obviously leaders drive organizations and the subsequent culture that sits around that, but they're very compartmentalize. So you know, as you know...

Erica D'Eramo 17:22

Yeah, 100 percent.

Erica D'Eramo 17:22

...from your inclusion world, well, let this month we're doing race and ethnicity. This month is LGBTQI+, you know.

Erica D'Eramo 17:31

Yup.

Ruth Cooper Dickson 17:31

Next month, it's women. It's so compartmentalized.

Erica D'Eramo 17:37

You can only do one at a time.

Ruth Cooper Dickson 17:37

Yeah. We can only do one at a time.

Ruth Cooper Dickson 17:41

I just, yeah, I know. And it's so frustrating. So I do think there is this kind of, right, now we're focusing on hybrid working. And then there's a real there's a real pressure within we know, within HR teams at the moment where flexible working policies have needed to be updated, even perhaps more so from working at home. What does a return blended work, return to work look like? If we're going for hybrid working, what does this look like? What does this mean? So I guess the policies and procedures, which are often the first port of call are being reviewed and looked at and put into place, which would might include, you know, obviously, will include things like, how do we keep employees physically safe at work as well, you know, we've seen I've seen lots of LinkedIn pictures of people who've returned to their co workspaces where, you know, open plan spaces where they've got, you know, the perspex shields and everything else to get to keep people COVID safe, not mentally safe, but so there's almost like, let's push on with the policies or procedures and the practicalities of getting everybody back in, but without the bigger picture thinking like that, aside of like, what are all the other factors that are going to imp... a kind of come into play here that we need to consider? So it has been and I thought this was, you know, because as a leader, as a business owner, you start to the first, you know, the first thing you tend to do is go well, what's what's happening with us? First of all, we're like, let's do a sense check in. Is what we're offering wrong, or is it... the, you know, this isn't saying we've got no work, I'm not saying we've got no work, but it's that whole issue, the focus, there's just a sense, this intuitive sense that things have started to shift. That's what it is. And then it was me going out, say, April, April time, May, having these conversations with different people, having the conversations with the team having the conversations with the clients. And with we're running, as I said to you, before we started, I'm running a session tomorrow a webinar. We've had so many people who've signed up for this because I, oh, we were just thinking we're struggling to think about what to do or what does this mean for us? So it's so different, isn't it? Because you're right, I think when people were either working fully in the office, and then they were suddenly at home, and now there's like this gray area, because it's, it's not one or the other really.

Erica D'Eramo 20:18

Yeah.

Ruth Cooper Dickson 20:19

I've had a taste of that, or...

Erica D'Eramo 20:21

Yeah.

Ruth Cooper Dickson 20:22

It's just, it's very different.

Erica D'Eramo 20:25

Yeah, it's like the employees have seen, and the management too, some of the benefits of flexible working and working from home. And some of the dark sides of it as well, right, like we've seen that it's, it is complex, it is not better or worse, it is different. But employees that have gotten a taste of, you know, not having to do the extremely long commute, not having to put in all of this like non value added time and energy for I don't know, getting your getting your clothes dry cleaned, like all these little things that actually usually disproportionately affect women, I will say, Yes, a lot of these kind of expenses and time time inputs that have to go into preparing to go into the office. But being able to be more efficient and more flexible, and and manage your life while you're also managing your workload and that autonomy. Once people have been given a taste of that, and seeing that they can thrive in that environment, it's it's pretty tough to convince people that there's no value there, and you have to return to the way things used to be. Because it's more comfortable for leadership or, you know, I it's not really clear to me and I think one thing that's come into focus, for me has been sort of the the hierarchical view of working from home or flexible working as being a privilege that you have to earn in in certain workspaces like that kind of traditional view of you have to earn it. So if you're more senior, perhaps you get more flexible working opportunities than if you're more junior, versus, you know, if you need the flexible working, because you're balancing childcare, because you're balancing like an adult care, you have different elements that require flexible working, um, that I was hoping would sort of go by the wayside through the pandemic, but I'm starting to see that reemerge is like certain people will get to work flexibly or work from home. But it's not necessarily based on need. It's based on seniority, or I don't... like hierarchy, which kind of brings into question trust in the organization like is it that people aren't being trusted to deliver? Or?

Ruth Cooper Dickson 22:59

I think we know that organizations, in lots of cases, especially large, big corporates, especially those that been around for a long time are very hierarchical. Yeah, there's a promotion structure. There's who gets the big office, who gets the car, you know, there's some of the more senior you get, the better perks there are. If your face fits, you know, when we go back to like cliques, and who the in and out groups, who gets those unspoken privilege, as well. And it was really interesting in the pandemic, because we did in the last year, we did a session that was for graduates and apprentices who for for a firm who who started during the pandemic as their first job, you know, and I see you know, where you miss it. And you will know this from from where you've been in your career. But you know, when you're surrounded by experienced people, you can dip in and out of those conversations, you learn by osmosis, you pick stuff up, but also, there is a, we have all this tech now. And I think this was also what we've not, we've got this amazing technology we can use but I think one thing we've not learned to do yet and I did read a really good peer reviewed research piece on actual Zoom fatigue, as it's been coined, but you know, we don't use the tech in the right way. We've kind of we... we just kind of tried to replicate what we do in person, but online and it's like, well, that doesn't quite work. So there should be ways that people can learn and develop without having to be in the office physically, you know, they should still be able to have those opportunities. You know, I I've done all my coaching as you will have done online during the pandemic have run a research program online, I I coach people in different countries and different time zones. I mean, that was...

Erica D'Eramo 24:54

Yeah.

Ruth Cooper Dickson 24:54

That was also before the pandemic as well. So yeah, and I'm also coached by somebody who I don't see in person. So there's lots you can take from those experiences, you don't have to physically be together. I think that that is how we've, we kind of do that. And I, you know, that idea around you mentioned it before about performance of people who are working from home is much higher. And I think there's been a real, you know, where, where organizations have furloughed staff or people have been made redundant. I'm not gonna lie if I was in a corporate and I was seeing friends, peers, colleagues, lose their jobs, or be put on long term furlough, you know, would I be working my butt off to make sure that I wasn't at the top of that list? For sure. Like why, you know, you're there's going to be an inherent motivator there and an extrinsic motivator to just do it. Because...

Erica D'Eramo 25:53

Right.

Ruth Cooper Dickson 25:54

Yeah, you want to save your job, right.

Erica D'Eramo 25:55

Correlation, not...

Ruth Cooper Dickson 25:56

Yeah.

Erica D'Eramo 25:56

Yeah. So the working from home is like a correlation in some ways. Yeah. Yeah, it's not across the board. Right. It's like, some of those companies did have that, like, increased pressure, headcount, headcount cuts. And other companies that did not saw kind of different, I guess, different incentives act act on their companies, where you were able to see sort of a, what does it look like without that some of the companies that were thriving, although even those companies that were thriving in this new environment, they they just saw increased workload as well, right?

Ruth Cooper Dickson 26:35

Yeah, no, and that says a bit, then it's about going back to those boundaries. So you're not living at work, right? It's, it's how do you practice having that space to switch off? How do you and you have to, you have to take responsibility for that, and that even as a leader, that's something that I really had to work on last year and work on for my team, but it is really hard, like, it's hard. And we do this for a job. And I don't get it right all the time. But we found it tough. So if you're not in that space, or you're not that self aware, or your boss's checking in to see when you're online or why, you know, you finish, you can be sat at your desk, right from you get up 6:30 to nine o'clock at night, without people really checking in.

Erica D'Eramo 27:28

Yeah.

Ruth Cooper Dickson 27:29

You could be working, but are you productive all that time? Maybe you are for a period, but there's gonna be a point where that stops being productive, right?

Erica D'Eramo 27:38

Yeah, and I think everybody's brain works very differently. Like we had a podcast episode recently on ADHD and, and productivity and how, at least for me working in the office, because it was sort of like a sentence to me of like, you have to be here for eight hours I would really struggle to be particularly productive, like I really I would struggle to hit flow states in the office. And so I ended up just like taking a lot of my work home and doing it at home anyway, which meant I was putting in this like time in the office but then also just doing it at home where I could hit you know, I could reach flow because I didn't have the distractions of the office around. So in that regard, working from home was... I really thrived in it when I transitioned from the workplace to the home to home because then I didn't actually end up putting in the eight hours at the office and then going home and doing more right I got to like do my work during my work hours. But the boundaries issue has certainly... it's it's definitely been a challenge for a lot of the people in my network. There's no there's no getting in the car turn you know or getting on the the subway and going home. There's no like demarcation of this is the end of your work day.

Ruth Cooper Dickson 29:03

And you're physically leaving the building aren't you you're physically going somewhere. I think those people... I know I did it in the third lock down when it was winter because it was too dark to go out in the morning and in the early evening. So in the daytime, I would definitely make sure I took a break outside because I could be in all day. But even now I mean yesterday I work from home and I'm still working from home at the moment but I am going back into London just through personal preference to have a day in London every so often. Just because I enjoy traveling and seeing people and having something different about my week. But yeah, yesterday I didn't leave the house until I needed to leave the house at eight o'clock at night. And I was like oh my god I've only just left the house today. Because I didn't need to go outside, I didn't go out and train or do anything that I needed to do. It was my kind of rest day from training. So didn't leave the house, sat sat on the balcony but didn't didn't leave physically leave the house at all yesterday. And it's it's kind of sad, when you think like that?

Erica D'Eramo 30:07

Yeah, right. And so we don't want like, we don't want either extreme right? We don't want people... this like really rigid, rigid structure of presenteeism and all that. And we don't want isolation and people kind of burning out on their own without that balance. So I guess what are you seeing organizations doing that you would consider best practice as they kind of enter into this brave new world?

Ruth Cooper Dickson 30:37

Well, I did read the the FT article that you shared with me from last month, actually, which was really interesting to see that Dropbox have decided against using a hybrid model, which I thought was really interesting. So they're going virtual first policy, because they're worried about inclusion disparities. And...

Erica D'Eramo 30:57

Yup.

Ruth Cooper Dickson 30:58

...in regards to performance and career trajectory, which is a lot of the stuff we've spoke about, about that in group. And having, you know, cliques form. There was definitely clients who shared experiences of cliques, in the early stages of when all people could return to a cut to a more skeletal staff level. So they were encouraged if they wanted to come in, it was safe to do so. But there was those who are in the office, those who weren't in the office. So I have yet to see real beacons of best practice. I think it's too early to say that I think, where organizations are really trying to... our clients are trying to support their leaders through this process. They're aware that this is going to cause problems. So we were, you know, working with them on different kind of support mechanisms. And kind of more leadership development practices, which encompass well being at the heart of kind of thinking about how they lead in a hybrid model. But I have yet to see the effects of like, what is best practice? And I think that's going to take a little bit of time, but I think it's those who've actually said, we don't know how this is going to... so they've not made some big assumptions. They've they've not said, yes, we've got this right, because I think you probably haven't yet.

Erica D'Eramo 32:45

Right.

Ruth Cooper Dickson 32:46

And it's gonna take some time. And also those who aren't listening, I think the ones that are taking their time are also finding the space to listen to the individuals, like the individual contributors, as you said, to find out what people want so then they're doing the surveys, they're having the conversations, they're figuring out what works best. They're seeing how that's going to work, there's more support there than just you need to come back into the office now, or we're working from home. And that's it. So it's kind of... it's kind of...

Erica D'Eramo 33:21

Flexible.

Ruth Cooper Dickson 33:21

...a bit more collaborative. Yeah, there's a bit more of there's more communication. So that's kind of where it's seen as I think it'll be interesting to see how those all go well both sides will kind of work because I think if you're just saying, right, you've got to come back.... I don't know, I'm finding one particular client as well, an organization that I know of, they've you know furloughed staff out. And they've really struggled with the staff returning back into the environment, you know, having had quite significant... where we where we've seen people who've been furloughed for quite a significant period of time, because, you know, academic evidence shows good work leads to good mental health. Now, if you're not in the workforce on any level for a significant... so imagine, like everybody who's just worked from home, during the pandemic, you're still working you still have those connection, those touch points, that meaning and purpose that is driven by who you are, you know, often we ask people, what they, what they do who they are, and they talk about their job, right, first, more than often.

Erica D'Eramo 34:31

Identity.

Ruth Cooper Dickson 34:32

Yeah. So those people who've been furloughed, I mean, imagine the amount of change their brain is going to require to switch back. I mean, that's, that's quite hard. You know, it's an unscheduled sabbatical whether they've loved it or hated it, or wherever it's been. That's a big that's a huge shift. That's going to be quite huge.

Erica D'Eramo 34:54

Especially. Yeah, I guess, especially if they they did not have agency in that decision that it was sort of done to them, like the decision was made for them.

Ruth Cooper Dickson 35:09

Yeah.

Erica D'Eramo 35:09

And so that can that can really change how that experience feels. Yeah, confidence, like getting your feet back under you.

Ruth Cooper Dickson 35:21

I mean, I know when I did my first talk, so it was a live talk at a client's but there was no audience. And we did that in April. So I actually did the journey. Because had been since September, I had it, I hadn't done it, I actually did the journey, end of March time back into London, just to get a feel for it. Because I know what I'm like in terms of my anxiety disorders, just kind of, I didn't want the first time I went back into the workplace, to, to deliver something to be on show if you like or be on my stage and on my game, so I wanted to do that route.

Erica D'Eramo 36:04

A dress rehersal.

Ruth Cooper Dickson 36:05

Yeah, just like, yeah, dress rehearsal, and just go in. And, you know, had a couple of meetings, but nothing that was a big deal, and then came back and then took so much out of me. And then...

Erica D'Eramo 36:17

Yeah.

Ruth Cooper Dickson 36:18

...get it... being aware of that. And then going back in again to do the event. Kind of a bit more prepared to know what to expect, but just the energy. And then you and I've chatted about this offline about the amount of energy it takes to do stuff in person versus remotely, you know, and introvert extroverts that kind of, is a big, that's a big part for for managers to... leaders to consider, you know, what, I, there was a, there's article I posted on on LinkedIn yesterday that talked about, especially if your employees suddenly were in the office, and then they were out of the office, very quickly, they will have gone through some metamorphosis over that period of time. So even if you think they are the same person, they aren't, they will have changed on some level, most people will have changed on some level.

Erica D'Eramo 37:08

Yeah, that's fascinating, and we'll have put in these support structures, like formally or informally, that will have embedded in our lives. And in many cases, not even be aware that we've done it, right.

Ruth Cooper Dickson 37:22

Yeah.

Erica D'Eramo 37:22

...that may be serving us quite well, and we'll be a bit challenged by like a full return to work. I think some of the things that I'm seeing and hearing, that seemed like, seemed to be good practice that I'm interested to see how it how it will turn out is continuing to maintain sort of that like flat distribution of information that existed when COVID hit. So companies realized, like, we don't have this trickle down in the office anymore. So we'll have like global webcasts with our CEO, or we'll have a lot more accessibility to the top, because it's just more efficient to like, do the recording once and get it out there. And town halls became, you know, like global or regional instead of people being kind of broken up into teams. And that I think maintaining that could be really helpful in tackling some of that hierarchy and cliquishness that will come into play from a hybrid model where certain people get access to the information sooner than other people. So making sure that access to information isn't poorly, I don't know distributed, or preferentially distributed, I guess, I should say. And then there's a lot of talk about like schedules, which is interesting to me, because in the energy industry, historically, there was a lot of like what they call flex Fridays, at least in the US. And it was a big, kind of it was seen as like a really big perk in the energy industry that everybody gets to pick a flex Friday. I know when I started back in 2002 or so you got to pick which flex Friday was your flex Friday, and then you would just work additional hours throughout the week, but you got every other Friday off whichever one you wanted. And then that kind of shifted because they realized, well, the people who were in the office on the Friday where other people aren't in the office aren't really having a productive Friday. And so it kind of makes that Friday a wash. So they would they sort of shifted to everyone takes the same flex Friday off like this team is always, you know, this is your Friday off and that's your Friday working. And people grumbled about that a little bit, but at least they knew what their Friday off was going to be and they could still kind of get stuff done on that Friday. And then they move to like getting rid of flex Fridays altogether. I don't think anybody really... maybe some people still do flex Fridays, but it's pretty uncommon now. And that people really did struggle with that, because they had embedded that in their lives like that would be the day that they went and did their doctor's appointments, you know, that would be the day that you go run to the bank and like, and access these businesses, and it was seen as a big perk. So now there's a lot of talk, you know, in all industries about, okay, we'll do flex working, but it's not really gonna be flex working, it'll be like, you get to choose two days a week that you can work from home, but they have to be the same two days for the whole team. And, or, you know, or maybe it's on more of like a weekly basis, you get to, you know, the whole team has to be in the office during one week, or I think they're trying to balance the flexibility of giving people some time to work from home that they found useful with the, the downside of having too many people disparate, and never having the team come together face to face. So I think Catalyst has put out some information about, they've done some really great research in the future of work around best practice here and sort of making that wavelength a bit longer. So it's not necessarily two days a week, but it might be, you know, this one week, per quarter, we want to bring the team together for some team building for some, you know, some bonding, but giving people more flexibility in the long term. Because that can be that can be tough. Two days a week means you're sort of still, you can't like group that time together, you know? So I mean, I guess what, do you have any thoughts on the cadence of like, how a hybrid model could work? Or, you know, from, from a wellness perspective, from a mental health perspective of that, like, brain switching that has to happen?

Ruth Cooper Dickson 42:02

I think it's going to take, like we've just spoke about, some trial and error to find out...

Erica D'Eramo 42:08

Yeah.

Ruth Cooper Dickson 42:08

...if it fits and expecting that expecting that.

Erica D'Eramo 42:10

Yeah.

Ruth Cooper Dickson 42:11

I think when we pretend everything is, everything is going to be okay. And it will just slot into place. And it's not going to happen, right. I mean, there might it might do some organizations, but I, but big corporates, you know, they're gonna have to figure out like, how it's going to work and try stuff and see how it fits and, you know, stick with it for a period of time and see what kind of response they get, and then look to alter it. So this is kind of almost I don't think there's this one size fits all I, I actually really admire Dropbox was saying what they've done and say, well, we're just going to do virtual, you know, we're not going to go for this hybrid work model, you know, we're going to go for virtual, because even if, you know, you consider co workspaces or people kind of having that opportunity to get together, then you're still going to create those cliques, and you know, people that can do that or want to be able to do that, but then there's, there's gonna have to be organizations that are, you know, that they will say, people have to come into the office. So I think there's going to be more of a focus around understanding, like you said, the comms piece, making sure that is flat. And it's, it's fair that if, you know, if you're having a session, a meeting that people dial in as well like understanding, then you know how to deliver. And that is hard, because I've delivered training workshops, where I've got people in person in the room with me and people on a video camera or webcam, either in the same country or other countries. So it's hard to do that you have to be such an inclusive facilitator, and really think about your audience to make sure you're bringing people in. So you know, leaders in the teams who are in the room need to think about those people who are sat online and how they're engaging with those people. So there's gonna have to be some, there's going to have to be some kind of support and training there in place. But I also think there's got to be an understanding around, this is going to still create some anxiety for lots of people to settle into what was. You know, we've only we've, we've we've taken 12, 13, 14 months, 15 months, to get to where we are now. So it's going to probably take that amount of time, you know, we're talking weeks and months, not days and weeks to kind of get back into that sense of this is the new routine, right? So we're talking to end of 2022, not end of 2021, possibly, of alienness. Because we were always so far advanced on tech, and the ability to create virtual teams and the ability to be more collaborative with our work and to think more differently about how as as humans can inbuild self care and well being, to be more productive and to be healthier and happier and to enjoy our work, but we've just not got there yet, like we've we've kind of this has given us the opportunity it is a real opportunity it's an opportunity to shape how for leaders and organizations to shape the future of their business, going into the future, but also for individuals to really reflect and think about... And of course, I'm not saying everyone's gonna go, right, I don't want to do this anymore. But what do you want to shape your work to look like? You know, how is that important to you? What does what have you really taken from the last 13, 14 months? What do you want to see more of now? What do you want to see less of? You know, because some people will be I really want to be around people, I want to be back in the office. So if your organization goes, oh we're all virtual, then maybe that organization isn't for you anymore, likewise...

Erica D'Eramo 42:59

Yeah.

Ruth Cooper Dickson 44:18

...if you're a virtual person, you might say, I need to look for something else. Like maybe it's a different sector, maybe it's a different role...

Erica D'Eramo 46:13

Yeah.

Ruth Cooper Dickson 46:14

...maybe there's... Sorry.

Erica D'Eramo 46:16

No, go ahead.

Ruth Cooper Dickson 46:17

I was gonna say, um, what about all those people who shifted, who were furloughed, who might have been doing something completely different for the last 12, 13 months, you know, to had to survive to keep the money coming in. Maybe that's really changed their perspective of work. Like there's a real sense around, I remember doing a module in my undergrad degree back in the late '90s, called the realities of work. And I think this is what we're really starting to see, this is organizational change and development right at its finest. It's, it's going to be so interesting to see, like you said about people writing theses right now, I think it's going to be such an interesting place to look back on in 5, 10 years from now and go, wow, after the pandemic, look what happened to the world of work, look how it shifted and changed.

Erica D'Eramo 47:08

And I think that's the that is the piece around the reality that people are still coming to terms with that it has changed forever. And some companies will try to go back to the way it used to be. And some will be more successful than others, I think, and some of that will have to do with the age of their workforce, perhaps or the makeup of their workforce. But I do think that how companies proceed over the next kind of 24 months will become sort of their brand offering to their employees, right? That will be a competitive differentiator as far as acquiring talent. And, again, not good or bad. But differentiator right. So the people like me who love flexible working, love working from home love autonomy. They'll be they'll get to choose to the extent they have the ability to or have the privilege to choose, they'll choose those employers that really celebrate that way of working. And that's kind of a differentiator that's it existed before, certainly, but just not to the extent I think it will going forward. And so companies are going to have to compete for talent in a way that they haven't had to before. That's my prediction.

Ruth Cooper Dickson 48:23

Yeah, I think that's it, that is such a such an important part of well being because when we spoke to organizations before COVID, around more strategic consultancy, of understanding their well being strategy, you know, what do you have on your website around mental health and well being, you know, more broadly, instead of just a the obligatory statement, like how do you invest in your employees mental health and well being? How do you work at which, obviously, inclusion sits at the heart of that, and that was, for me was always a big thing, as you know, that well being was a wrapper that sits around who we are. So you know, how do you use that from a strategic brand perspective? And if you can confidently say, on your website with testimonials from employees on I don't know, Glassdoor and other websites where people can find out about what it's like to work for a company that people are really talking about. There's a real ethos here that this is what's believed in. It was really interesting because when you were talking, I was thinking about Champs, and we have we have a lot of we have a lot of women that work in Champs, and we have a lot of mums that work at Champs as well. And I wonder if that's partly and I'm not a mother but partly down to the culture that I've created around you know we the flexibility. So I got rid of our office space in 2019 in the heart of London, because we just really weren't utilizing it and actually we did co working and we got together as a team once a month to sit and work on a Monday all together. And we all traveled in. And that worked for us. And it's been hard not to see them. And then we have started to see a couple of them now in person. But we almost were like ahead of that, I guess, around how I wanted to the culture that I wanted to create and even in the last week. So last week here in the UK was a beautiful week, it was half term week. So some of the some of the team had got kids off and, I was off, but I was tapping in and out of work. And we had our usual team meeting, but actually, the ethos was like, it's a bit of a quiet week for clients just you don't need to take holiday, but just be around if needed. Like, it's, we've been through enough, like I recognize my team have been through enough and I'm exhausted. So they're definitely exhausted. So let's while we can take some of this time to refresh, and hopefully, you know, things, you know, things will as cyclical as they are and as things kind of start to, you know, we've got stuff in the diary. But as that builds again, and you know, just take that breathing space while we can. But you've got to do it, you've got it, you know.

Erica D'Eramo 51:14

This is where to get really deep for a moment, I really do think this is where true leadership like quality leadership becomes so valuable, because if your mission is clear, and if what your team contributes, is clear, then the physical location of where they are, may or may not matter, but you have trust, and you understand what they are actually contributing, versus what I call kind of the lazy version of leadership or the type of leadership that just doesn't have line of sight to that. The only analog that they can measure performance with is kind of bums in seats, as I call it. So like face time in front of the computer or face time through conversation, perhaps, but it's not necessarily output. So if you really know what you're contributing and what the mission is, and how well you're accomplishing the mission, then a lot of this other these other arbitrary measures sort of fall by the wayside because you don't need that's not part of your performance management. Like how present somebody is. I mean, present as in like physical presence...

Ruth Cooper Dickson 52:29

Yeah.

Erica D'Eramo 52:30

..is is not actually important.

Ruth Cooper Dickson 52:33

And also when knowing when the people are online. As a, you know, sometimes I think, oh, my goodness, I don't actually always know when people are online, I can check diaries, but it goes back to that T word, right, trust. That just knowing...

Erica D'Eramo 52:52

Yeah.

Ruth Cooper Dickson 52:53

...that you trust people to do their job. You trust the outputs that you see. I we don't work on Fridays at Champs as in the office is closed, people have a choice if they want to catch up with admin, if they want to do things they can, but no external emails go out. No internal team meetings happen unless it's mega urgent, you need a one to one with somebody but that's, I think happened once in a time, twice that I know of. So it's a day of sometimes I know some of the team like to work in the morning on a Friday just to wrap up the admin for the week. But that's it, like I don't, I like to work on a Sunday afternoon for a few hours. So I would rather do my time on a Sunday afternoon sort of four or five o'clock in the evening, just to get ready for the week, week ahead, than be online on a Friday. So if that's my choice. People are very different. And I give that give that permission to choose how you want to work. That's probably how everyone in the team is it's it's a choice, you show up because of the the mission and the values and the work that we do. And people care about the work that they do and the output that they give to our clients. And we know the client is king, but there's also boundaries around that.

Ruth Cooper Dickson 54:13

Yeah.

Ruth Cooper Dickson 54:14

You know, which is why we don't, which is why we don't generally you won't get emails ridiculously late at night, or at weekends from us on a Friday because there's boundaries around us even if somebody does want to work on a Sunday. If I do an email on a Sunday, it's send later it's not send an email on a Sunday.

Erica D'Eramo 54:31

Yeah, yeah, that's some that's some good practice right there with the setting of the expectations. That's something that I had to learn over the course of years that even verbally, like you don't have to work late, you don't have to work long hours if I am displaying other behaviors, people will mirror my, the leader's behaviors...

Ruth Cooper Dickson 54:56

It was so funny...

Ruth Cooper Dickson 54:57

...versus what they say.

Ruth Cooper Dickson 54:57

...both, there's two people in my team who I know who joined and they both fairly early on when starting emailed out on a Friday, one on a Sunday and both were oh my gosh, I'm so sorry I emailed a client I was like I don't even need to shout at you like, oh there was an email that did go out kind of my usual direct bluntness of you emailed a client on a Friday. Let's not let that happen again. And people know right, they're like, no we don't email on a Friday.

Erica D'Eramo 55:30

Yeah.

Ruth Cooper Dickson 55:30

You've got to set that you have to set it and you have to, you have to also set it so I don't have what I don't have work emails on my phone, I took them off in lockdown one never put them back on, unless I travel into London, and I might put the Outlook app onto my phone, but I don't have my work emails on my phone. So the only way I could check my emails, if I log onto my laptop. I don't use WhatsApp for work. My team contact me by Slack. If I'm on holiday, I delete slack. And they know that if they need to get hold of me by WhatsApp, somebody has to have been... someone has to have something really serious to have to warrant a WhatsApp message.

Erica D'Eramo 56:06

Yeah. I mean, so these are some of the when we talk about best practices, you know, for leaders, I think these are some of the best practices, especially when you're looking at hybrid models because setting those boundaries and being clear that it's not an it's it's not a fake boundary. It's not like, Oh, we don't work on Fridays, but then the people who really try hard they do come in and work on Fridays, you know, like, No, we do not work on Fridays. Or we, if you do it better be secret, like don't let anybody see you doing it because we don't want to we don't want to set that example.

Ruth Cooper Dickson 56:35

Yeah. And this there'll be internal, out of offices on a Friday often say things like, Hi, I'm I'm taking some downtime from the screen and phone today, if you need me, Whatsapp or Slack me. Somebody might say, you know, there's, I'm working this, I'm around this morning, or I'm not around today, I'll be online, but on Sunday, or whatever it is. So there's, there's generally a consensus that the you might be catching up on stuff, and that's okay. It'd be really rare any leader would ask for something on a new request on a Friday, there might be stuff that's already happened in the week for somebody to work on on a Friday that they might want to tie up or wrap up on a Friday morning, for example, that they do it. But it would be you know, there's it's really rare that I would email say, Kate, my admin in my team and say, Oh, can you do this on a Friday morning, because my assumption is generally she is not, my assumption is she is not working. So therefore if she's doing her own little tidy up admin, that's for her to do. It's not me adding to her workload on a Friday.

Erica D'Eramo 57:40

And I think that that is so contrary to how a lot of people have been brought up through the business world to view what quote unquote, good work ethic is, right? Like, we've taken, again, what I what I consider sort of arbitrary metrics that aren't key to delivering the mission like response that, you know, responsiveness is always one that you should be able to drop everything at any hour of the day or night and reply to your manager for even like the smallest little thing. And you can get that and build that into your organization, but at what cost? Right. And? And is that really serving your mission? If you if you're a fire department? Yes, it is serving your mission, right? Like, there are some jobs that are all about responsiveness, security is one of them, right? But...

Ruth Cooper Dickson 58:25

Yeah.

Erica D'Eramo 58:26

...in most cases, like updating the slide deck for the executive team, it just means like you either didn't do your work in advance, or it's poor planning rather than, but it's seen as, like loyalty to the company or loyalty to the to the manager. And I just think that we lose so much potential talent that way by picking these outdated measures that we measure people by that aren't true to the purpose. And that's not why you hire those people. Right? I don't want to hire people who I need to check if they're online at the right time. Like do you provide quality work and insights? If yes, then I want you on the team?

Ruth Cooper Dickson 59:06

Exactly. There is not. There is not enough. Yeah, there's nothing like that. Which is really interesting. Because when you said that about coming through the ranks, I think all the times I spent in the corporate world. Why probably I have a different approach. But maybe that is because of my lived experience. But also just the fact I wanted to create something that was very true and authentic to how I am and how the business now is. And we would be going against everything... we know it's not all rose tinted glasses. We know that even though like I said, we got burnt out at the end of last year because there was so much work and we were just kind of like supporting others, we've we always put our own needs on the back burner to some extent around, you know, processing what was going off because we were supporting others, like many other frontline workers, I guess, in that sense. So you know, we're not we're not exempt of that, but actually, where we can say that these are the practices we hold and so when things are busy, like you say, when there's when our mission is to support organizations or support individuals to help ingrain a culture of positive mental health in a pandemic, of course, we're all hands to deck because that's our job like the firefighter, right? That's our job. So they're actually how do we recoup back from that, and this year has about a softness, a compassion, an ability to really look after each other to look after ourselves to understand we're all probably chronically fatigued, to know what's happening next to think ahead of the next 12 months, rather than the next five years, like, just take a breath, reset and recalibrate before we kind of move forward.

Erica D'Eramo 1:00:50

Yeah, I do hope that some of these large organizations that are making what seem like big decisions, and some of them feel like knee jerk decisions, you know, a lot of companies are like accelerating their return to work expectations, maybe they said, end of 2021. Now, a lot of at least in the US, a lot of companies are targeting September, like Labor Day is a big day in the US for like full 100% back to the office, which is in September. And I, I do hope that companies take that with them that like compassion and softness. I'm hopeful I think the ones that will have more staying power, they'll have more success, will have to incorporate that. And that growth mindset of like, we're figuring it out. This is our hypothesis for what it's going to work. If it doesn't work, we will pivot and we'll try something else. Versus like, there is a right way, there is a wrong way, we are betting that this is the right way. And we're going to put all our chips on the table, you know, I think that there, that could be a risky, that could be a risky strategy. So. So for any individuals out there whose companies maybe aren't taking best practice into account, do you have any thoughts on how they can be kind of protecting their own mental well being as they transition and are facing, you know, anxiety, changing schedules, changing demands?

Ruth Cooper Dickson 1:02:21

Recognize that it is affecting you I think, is first and foremost, don't dismiss how you feel because how you feel is valid. No one can tell you how you feel, right? So that's first and foremost is know, that's how you feel and that's valid. Second, where you might be transitioning back into the workplace. And if you've got to, and, you know, as we talked about before, that, that's how you earn your money. And, you know, maybe there is some bigger picture stuff, which I'll mention in a minute. But, you know, think about that dress rehearsal, think about as you would do, kind of preparing yourself mentally, physically to get back into that. So it's doesn't feel so different. So if you can, for example, work from a coffee shop, and maybe not go back into work at the moment, but you're going back into work in September, maybe if you work from somewhere else. So it's a transitionary phase, you maybe go out of the house a couple of days a week and work from somewhere a little bit different, maybe even it was for a few hours, but grab a coffee and take your laptop and work if you can do that, for example, if that's a possibility. Think about if you're if you have mental ill health diagnosis already. So know how, how to support yourself, what triggers to expect. But also if you don't, and you are feeling anxious, then think about those support systems. And we touched on this before about the US particularly, you know, there's a very strong kind of link towards having therapy or seeking that therapeutic intervention, less so probably in the UK, but coaching support, any, you know, whatever your support network is, is to use that.

Erica D'Eramo 1:04:00

Yeah.

Ruth Cooper Dickson 1:04:00

Speak to your manager, if you can. I often think employees, individuals often make a lot of assumptions, especially if they're feeling unwell mentally, or they're not feeling 100% or they're anxious or unsure. A lot of that time is misguided, you know, because we don't give a leader or manager an opportunity to have that conversation. So don't take don't make a big assumptions. And don't tell the story from your own narrative, like think about potentially how you could explore having a conversation with your manager or leader. If you have to go back and you don't want to go back. And you know, there's obviously there's HR to have a conversation with but there is a bigger question here, which was alluded to before about is this the right job still for you? Is this the right sector for you? Is this the right organization for you? There's some bigger questions that are going to drop out of what you've been through. So if that's the case, what does that look like and start to explore that with a coach or a career guidance counselor or somebody you can just give you that kind of different perspective and, and kind of give you a holding space to have those kind of conversations. Because it might just be the adjust... I say it might just be, it could just be the readjustment to a new routine. And that is going to feel weird, unnatural, yucky, horrible bring up a load of stuff, which are normal rational emotions to kind of experience right going through a big change. So also give yourself patience and space to kind of, you know, maybe if this is on your mind, I'm thinking that this might not be the right role for me anymore, the right organization, the right job, you don't have to make that cutthroat decision right now. Otherwise, that said, you know, maybe give it till the beginning of the new year, and then say, you know what, I've been doing it for six months, and it still doesn't feel right. It's time that I took this leap. Set yourself a milestone for then, rather than thinking, I've got to be in it forever, right? This is it, I've got to go back and it's going to be awful. How about, let me see how I feel in one month, three months, five months, six months, and then start to think this... you know what, this still doesn't feel right, I need to kind of look at my options, or think about what this means for me. So.

Erica D'Eramo 1:06:16

Yeah. And working with a coach, like you mentioned, can really help you find ways to, to even like prototype some of your ideas. There's a book called Design Your Life and they talk a lot about that like prototyping before you make these big changes. What are ways that you can test it out? Because the grass... some, you know, sometimes the grass is greener, then we get to the other side and we're like, oh, this is also awful. All this like freedom I envisioned is actually very lonely and solitary.

Ruth Cooper Dickson 1:06:46

Well that's it right? Yeah. Definitely. My my friend Harriet Minter has written a book called Working From Home: How to Build a Career You Love. I think that's what it's called, I think that's the second part of the title, how to build a career that you love. And again, how, for those of us, the small minority who are working from home, predominantly, although we would be perhaps on client sites, in coffee shops and co workspaces before the pandemic, we were much more used to doing working from home, right. So yeah. How do you curate what like you say that prototype of what would that actually look like? Where... do I like to be around people? Would I rather be in a nice co workspace where, okay, I'm not in a office, but I have an opportunity to travel in somewhere a couple of days a week and be around people and still grab that coffee and do a little bit of a commute, maybe not the full two hours, maybe it's a 45 minute or half an hour drive or a 20 minute walk. But it's something that's not, it's very different. And again, if your organization is forward thinking and they're trialing different options, maybe if you present, if yours is flexible, and you say well, actually, there's a co workspace, which is around the corner from my house, I can travel in there in 15 minutes, I could work from there three days a week, and there's private conference rooms, I can book out for meetings and video calls. And maybe they might go for that, like, this is the thing, right? There's an opportunity for you to also... that should be exciting to curate that. So it's not all you know, it's also about taking... people forget, they can take control. And I know, people have responsibilities, and they've got childcare and mortgages and the pressures and complexities of life, but you've gone through a pandemic. So that's that's the hardest part right now is the time to kind of think about, well, what does this look like? Like what? What is your meaning and purpose? Like? What do you want to have in your life more of or what do you want to have less of? You know the big coaching questions. What do you want more of? Or what do you want less of?

Erica D'Eramo 1:08:48

Yeah, yeah. I think this is a good opportunity as well to talk to the managers and the leaders out there about when your employees are struggling, or they are going through this like what can the leaders and the and the managers be doing to keep an eye on that to be taking care of their own mental health perhaps?

Ruth Cooper Dickson 1:09:10

You touched on it before with the boundaries about role modeling. So there's gonna have to be a real piece from leaders and managers to role model the best practice. And not doing what they kind of expect their leader or manager to do, right. So it goes all the way up to the top. The more senior leaders that hopefully listen to this that it can set a precedent then others follow suit. So try and role model those best practices. You won't get it right they'll be times you mess up, but that's okay. Forgive yourself. Compassion... compassionate leadership is also about strength. People think compassionate is just softness, it's also having strength in that to hold that space for your teams and your people. So listening as you know, active listening, listening non judgmentally. Like why does Erica want to not come into work? She doesn't have childcare responsibility. She's at the top of her game, blah, blah, blah, like, why wouldn't you want to be in the office? You know, actually, this isn't just about what you might know of Erica on a surface level in terms of her responsibilities and commitments, this is much more deeper than that. So actually not listening, listening with that kind of non judgmental ear of understanding, signposting mental health support where needed, whether that's your employee assistance provision, or health care insurance or therapy or whatever, you have... coaching, internal coaching, external coaching support, which would be massively beneficial.

Erica D'Eramo 1:10:36

I agree.

Ruth Cooper Dickson 1:10:37

And also asking, what can I do to help you? Like what do you need from me? What would help you? Because I think leaders and often managers forget to ask that question. They kind of are like taking all this stuff in from an employee who sometimes might be the first time they've even articulated this out loud, or they're worried to death about having this conversation. So they get all tongue tied, and it all comes this big one big ramble or they kind of just blurt it all out with no kind of thought, thought through. And so just saying, like, well, maybe go away and have a think about what it is that you need from me, like going back to my point before about maybe say to your manager, this is some of the options I'm thinking, like, what do you think or? You know, ask them what you need, what they need from you as well. Like, that is a good starting point to kind of work from.

Erica D'Eramo 1:11:30

Yeah. Yeah. Being open minded.

Ruth Cooper Dickson 1:11:31

Yeah. Because if they just want to download to you, they might just want to download. So that's very different to actually there is something you could do to help and support me with this. Or it might just be I just want you to know how I'm feeling as my manager.

Erica D'Eramo 1:11:46

Yeah.

Ruth Cooper Dickson 1:11:46

Which is a pretty big thing in itself, but just... they may not need anything from you. But sometimes just asking that question gets the employee thinking, oh, okay, I hadn't really thought about that. What what could you do for me? What would work here? Especially like you say, if somebody has to return to work? Like, what does that look like? Or what else can they do? So.

Erica D'Eramo 1:12:08

Yeah, I mean, this I this is why I'm a big believer in leaders going through some level of coaching training, because those open ended questions, those powerful questions, the what questions and the how questions, can really just open up so much information to you as a leader that gives you access to these opportunities that you know, your team can be doing.... really performing, if you can tap into that and support your employees in the way that they need to be supported, not necessarily the way that you enjoy being supported. So yeah, really, really good stuff in there. So Ruth, if people want to know more about what Champs has to offer and and resources that they have workshops, coaching, etc., where should they go? What what should they look for?

Ruth Cooper Dickson 1:12:56

You can find our website champsconsult.com. And we are also on all social media channels, which are all listed below in your show notes. So you've got all the links there, and you can reach out to us. If you go to the website, you can also download a free quickstart well being strategic guide, which is really handy and helpful. So it's a good starting point for for your journey.

Erica D'Eramo 1:13:22

Yeah, great. So I'll, I'll definitely advise our listeners to keep an eye out for webinars that come through. Ruth and her team have really great resources. And they are certainly friends of Two Piers Consulting, so. In fact, I probably owe a lot of the genesis of Two Piers to Ruth because it was sort of our conversations way back when that made me realize I I really wanted to do this. So thank you so much for taking the time to talk to us about this kind of transitional world that we're in right now and and how it's gonna look. We really appreciate it.

Ruth Cooper Dickson 1:14:02

We need to do one next year and do a update as to where we're at, what we what we've seen happening.

Erica D'Eramo 1:14:07

Year in review, check our assumptions.

Ruth Cooper Dickson 1:14:10

Thank you for having me.

Erica D'Eramo 1:14:11

Yeah, absolutely. And thanks to everyone for joining for our our latest podcast episode. And for Two Piers, you can find us online at twopiersconsulting.com, or on all of the social media channels. So we're on LinkedIn, Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram, and we look forward to seeing you at the next episode.