This week, we welcome our trusted friend and advisor, Kamilah Cole, to join us in a discussion of intersectionality. We explore the history and evolution of the term, how it shows up in our lives, and how we can be more mindful of intersectionality as we strive toward diversity, equity and inclusion in the workplace.

Transcript below:

Erica D'Eramo 0:05

Hello, and welcome to the two peers podcast season two. Today we are joined by our guest, Kamilah Cole. So Kamila is a paralegal with experience in corporate law firms. She's originally from Baltimore City and has 30 plus years of experience living at some of the busiest intersections of identity.

Erica D'Eramo 0:34

So full disclosure, Kamilah is one of my dearest and most trusted friends. We met way back in our college days when Kamilah served as the President and I served as the Vice President of a sorority called Lambda Delta Omega, which was specifically for lesbian, bisexual, transgender and ally women. Not only that, we also served on the Student Senate together, so we were quite busy. Kamilah now serves, you know, more than 20 years later, serves as an advisor and board member for Two Piers.

Erica D'Eramo 1:06

Today, we'll be exploring the topic of intersectionality: some of the history around the term and what it means as well as how it manifests in the workplace, especially in terms of fostering diversity, equity, and inclusion. So welcome, Kamilah.

Kamilah Cole 1:20

Hi! Hello Erica.

Erica D'Eramo 1:21

Hi!

Kamilah Cole 1:21

How are you?

Erica D'Eramo 1:22

Good. It's good to have you on finally.

Kamilah Cole 1:25

Yes.

Erica D'Eramo 1:27

So yeah, thanks for joining us today. Um, I feel like this is a topic that you and I have discussed over the years. And it's a topic that I thought was really good for us to discuss now, particularly with Pride Month upon us and all of the, all of the attention we're seeing around one certain type of identity and intersection. And yeah, I thought, you know, you'd have some good thoughts to share with us.

Kamilah Cole 1:56

Yeah, thank you for having me. I love intersectionality. It's, it's a fun topic to talk about can't wait to get in it.

Erica D'Eramo 2:04

Yeah, it's really impactful too.

Kamilah Cole 2:05

Yeah.

Erica D'Eramo 2:06

So how would you describe like the just the kind of textbook definition of intersectionality as we, as as defined today.

Kamilah Cole 2:15

So the dictionary defines intersectionality as the interconnected nature of social categorizations, such as race, class and gender, as they apply to any given individual or group regarded as creating, overlapping and interdependent systems of discrimination or disadvantage.

Erica D'Eramo 2:33

That's a lot of words.

Kamilah Cole 2:34

That is a lot of words.

Erica D'Eramo 2:36

Yeah,

Kamilah Cole 2:37

Take a deep breath there.

Erica D'Eramo 2:41

All right. Okay. And the history of intersectionality which is kind of used, it's used a lot now, I feel like I you see it and hear it quite a bit. Although I'm not sure if people really know where it came from, or what the history of it was, and, it, it dates back to 1989. And a professor named Kimberly Crenshaw, Kimberly Williams Crenshaw, who used the term in a 1989 paper that was quite, you know, highly regarded, and widely read from the University of Chicago legal forum called Demarginalizing the Intersection of Race and Sex: A Black Feminist Critique of Anti-discrimination Doctrine, Feminist Theory and Anti-racist Politics. Also, also, a lot to say, yeah,

Kamilah Cole 3:39

Thank you, Professor Crenshaw, for bringing intersectionality to us, to the masses.

Erica D'Eramo 3:45

Yeah, I mean, I think it came about originally, really to describe, like, specifically around race and gender.

Kamilah Cole 3:56

Mm hmm.

Erica D'Eramo 3:57

Because, I mean, let's face it for like, a lot of history, feminism has been about white women.

Kamilah Cole 4:04

Yeah. Yeah.

Erica D'Eramo 4:06

And has not actually described the experiences of Black women

Kamilah Cole 4:11

Anyone else?

Erica D'Eramo 4:12

Yeah. Well, anyone else?

Kamilah Cole 4:13

Anyone else?

Erica D'Eramo 4:15

Yeah, let's not forget that the suffrage movement actually relied heavily on racism, right. I mean, Elizabeth Cady Stanton and Susan B. Anthony outright opposed the passage of the 15th amendment and relied on arguments, very racist arguments for why white women should get to vote to like, outweigh the black vote. So

Kamilah Cole 4:41

Exactly.

Erica D'Eramo 4:42

So like white feminism didn't have a great run there for a while.

Kamilah Cole 4:49

And a complicated track record? For sure.

Erica D'Eramo 4:51

Yeah, yeah. So So yeah, I think this, I don't know which wave of feminism it was. I think I think that this introduction in 1989 of the term kind of started to get some attention. And by the 2000s, it really started to get picked up and standing intersectionality. And while the genesis was around like race and gender, now it's expanded really to, to talk about, like humans as our whole selves, and all the different ways that they are marginalized, or all the different ways they they experience the world.

Kamilah Cole 5:29

Exactly. You know, humans, I think are way more complex than we give ourselves credit for. and way more capable of being so multifaceted. But we do like to boil ourselves down to very simple, simple things, simple sort of categories. And I think, you know, intersectionality has, is really gaining traction as people really come to embracing this, like, we're more than just a race or sex, our orientation, you know, things of that nature. But yeah,

Erica D'Eramo 6:13

Yeah. And I think this is a really important topic for us at Two Piers, because the work that we're trying to do to tackle inequality in the workplace, and to really promote diversity, equity and inclusion in the workplace. What we often encounter is companies and organizations that have really good intentions, perhaps they set goals. And they have, you know, projects and efforts and work streams to address the, you know, DEI initiatives. But when looking at it through a very segmented lens, as a task force around race, a task force around LGBTQ, a task force around gender, it leaves so much of the lived experiences of the employees kind of out of the picture.

Kamilah Cole 7:14

Exactly. And I do think that I was gonna say, especially in the workplace, you see how, especially in corporate spaces, the workforce tends to be segregated by race and class in this very white at the top, and the, you know, black and brown at the bottom, sort of way in, in terms of like, for my firm, for instance. And most of the times I've been to people on the sort of service level, the assistants, and all of those are alway, always tend to be predominantly Black and brown, and predominantly women I find, and so whereas like, the attorneys tend to be white and male. So, no surprise there. But, you know, I just found that it, it some times holds people back, because those, you know, people are not allowed to sort of ascend different levels all the time. And people are often, I've been at places where they hire like, like-colored people, like, you know, other women, because they're like, well, they'll be more comfortable, they'll fit in with the whole the rest of them.

Erica D'Eramo 8:37

Culture fit.

Kamilah Cole 8:38

Culture fit. Yeah, yeah. So yeah, I mean, I think intersectionality if you're talking about the diversity and inclusion efforts that a lot of a lot of employers are trying to implement, or at least on paper, you don't see enough talk about I think, intersectionality and how the workforce is made up of these complex people who have many different needs and different lives and identities as well.

Erica D'Eramo 9:14

Yeah. I mean, I want to revisit this a little bit later through, you know, in terms of how this manifests in the corporate space. I think a lot of times, it gets boiled down, you know, these different boxes that we put people in, become sort of check boxes in the corporate world, like, "Oh, look, we're doing okay, on diversity, because we have these candidates and they check these boxes." And in reality, it's really more like a kaleidoscope, like you're putting one lens in front of another and you're creating a totally different outcome. So you can have Black, yeah, right. Like you can have a Black man and a white woman and you don't have you're completely missing out on the lived experiences of Black women in that case, who live with very different types of marginalization and, and stressors and tensions in their lives that white women will never understand. And Black men will never understand. Like, just as one of the most dominant examples out there, right? One of the most common examples out there.

Erica D'Eramo 10:26

But I did want to give listeners, like, some examples around some more examples. So just give some color to intersectionality. Because I think we do recent, huh. To give some illustration, to the, to this concept, because, um, I find that is, because race and gender are usually what we talked about, that some of the other elements of intersectionality are maybe less familiar. And so giving people you know, other touch points to think about. So, I mean, race and gender. That is, that's a whole actually, there's a whole different terminology even there as well, right?

Kamilah Cole 11:17

Yeah, exactly. There's... as a Black woman, an expert on this topic, no, I kid. But gender and race is where you sort of, "baby's first intersection," that's where you, you know, like, that's the easiest, that's the easiest, like, sort of tangible example of how people live at these intersections. As a Black woman, I deal with a lot of misogynoir, which is defined as a hate, you know, a hatred, a dislike for Black women. And it's sort of takes sexism to another level and sort of adds in this intersectional approach, and is a way to, like shine a light on like, you know, there are instances in which there are ways I should say, in which Black women have to navigate around the world in ways that other people do not. And also in it also is about the ways that Black women are discriminated against, especially if they're darker, if they're bigger if they are any, any shade of LGBTQIA.

Erica D'Eramo 12:39

Yeah, misog..., misogyn, misogynoir.

Kamilah Cole 12:42

It's a little it's a little, it's a little bit for the tongue. You know, it's a little tongue twister. But you know, it's it's the misogyny, that Black women, Black femmes face, I would say even Black, non-binary people face in a way. Because we, a lot of people view the world in very binary terms, you know, so yeah, you definitely see that come up a lot. But there's so many, you know, there's a lot more.

Erica D'Eramo 13:17

Yeah, there is a lot more. I mean, I'm, I'm just curious. How do you describe your intersectionality? What intersections do you live at?

Kamilah Cole 13:28

Oooohh. Well,

Erica D'Eramo 13:30

I say I'm curious. I would like you to...

Kamilah Cole 13:32

I'm about to drop some secrets on you. No, no. Yeah, I think you'll I think you won't be surprised by any of these. As I said, I live at the corner of Black and lady. So I'm a woman, I also identify as queer, mostly lesbian, sometimes gay, sometimes, you know, but, uh, I definitely have that intersection as well. I'm also a first generation American. So I grew up with an immigrant family. And immigrant life in America is its own... Trying to think of a nice way to say it, but it's its own thing. You know,

Erica D'Eramo 14:26

Its own experience

Kamilah Cole 14:30

...experience. And I also also deal with, you know, I live with mental health issues. And that's another that's definitely something I feel as though in corporate spaces, you don't really get to talk about how that affects people's lives, how that affects, you know, how they operate within the workspace. And yeah, that's definitely At least a another intersection that I that I live with. What about you? What intersections do you have?

Erica D'Eramo 15:09

Well, well before I share my intersections, I do want to say like the mental health, and neuro neuro diversity, which I feel like is somewhat related, like how our brains are working?

Kamilah Cole 15:24

Yes,

Erica D'Eramo 15:25

Um, we have we actually have an upcoming podcast episodes talking specifically around that and like the transition we're going through right now, but how that manifests in different cultures and like the acceptance of that in different based on, you know, like, especially in different immigrant communities that, you know, might have varying levels of acceptance, or support. Same with orientation, right, like, yeah, so let's see, my, I guess some of my intersections would certainly be white lady, queer lady. I also would identify as neurodiverse I deal with ADHD. Um, I say deal with because I don't know, it's like my superpower as well as my like. Yeah, something that challenges me. And I don't know, what are my other intersections?

Kamilah Cole 16:41

You don't want children? But sometimes, it feels like being a motherless woman is, especially in the workplace. It can it can cause problems either way.

Erica D'Eramo 16:58

Yeah, I mean, I've definitely taken less traditional life choices in some ways. So yeah, but I think that the way it's interesting, right, because I am, I am also married to a man. And so as a white woman who I mean, I don't know as far as gender goes, I I'm not super femmy. I'm not super butch. I'm kind of just like, somewhere in the middle. There's a lot of assumptions around my queerness. And that I must be straight. And cis, and I do identify it cis, but it's just there are a lot of assumptions that get made. So

Kamilah Cole 17:47

Yeah,

Erica D'Eramo 17:48

Yeah.

Kamilah Cole 17:49

Yeah, no one ever knows I'm gay, it's horrible. It's unfortunate.

Erica D'Eramo 17:57

Are you joking?

Kamilah Cole 17:59

No, I'm not joking.

Erica D'Eramo 18:00

Really? Oh, it's just I've known you so long, I just...

Kamilah Cole 18:03

I know. I know. I've known me so long that sometimes when people when someone reads me and st may ask me something like, Oh, do you have a boyfriend? I'm like, why would you ask me that? Like, I'm just shocked. Like, what are you talking about? I don't have a boyfriend. But I'm like, Oh, you don't know me? You haven't known me for the last 20 years like you.

Erica D'Eramo 18:23

Amazing. I love it. So yeah, I mean, like actual actually like that sexual orientation, cultural heritage, that is an a big intersection for people that we don't think about all the time. Especially in Pride Month, you know, like, what different people are dealing with right now.

Kamilah Cole 18:46

Exactly. That also made me it. You know, in terms of the the workplace, the beginning of the year is always, you know, we start the onslaught of everybody gets their own month, right. And so we get Black History Month, I'm sorry, January, I don't know what it is. But I don't think it's everything. But you know, we start with Black History Month and then there's Women's History Month

Erica D'Eramo 19:13

As you say that we're gonna, we're gonna hear from the people.

Kamilah Cole 19:15

People I am so sorry, whoever's month is January, I'm sorry. But um, you know, the Black people get February and women get March and want to say April was Asian?

Erica D'Eramo 19:32

Nope, nope. The Asian folks and the Mental Health Awareness folks have to share May.

Kamilah Cole 19:38

See, that's not even right. It's not even right. But um, it's just so funny to me, because it's like, we celebrate these things at work. And I think like, when we're celebrating Black History, I'm like, Okay, this is great. But then we celebrate Women's History, and it tends to be very white women focused like we can't talk about brown outside of February. And it just it just like further shows how we live our lives so segmented like, okay, you get to celebrate your blackness this month, and then you get to celebrate your if you're a woman this month, and then if you're also Asian, which you could also be all three of those things in your like. Gotta wait till May. And if you have mental health, go ahead and celebrate that too, because it's also May. It's just like this very, it's like this

Erica D'Eramo 20:38

sort of taxonomy, right? I know.

Kamilah Cole 20:43

And it's no, it just feels like, just another way that we don't. We don't really experience ourselves as full, and complete humans.

Erica D'Eramo 20:57

Yeah, I mean, I do want to since we mentioned Pride Month, and intersectionality, I do want to give, I do want to take a moment to pay tribute to Marsha P. Johnson and Sylvia Rivera, who were kind of the original, some of the original leaders of the Pride movement, like the Stonewall protests,

Erica D'Eramo 21:21

Mhmmm,

Erica D'Eramo 21:22

and who lived at very complicated intersections in life as trans Black and brown women.

Kamilah Cole 21:32

Yes. Who were also struggling economically, you know, living like really with housing insecurity. And I think that's another, that's another intersection that we really need to make sure isn't forgotten, because you could, it's pretty deadly to be poor in this country. So that is definitely an intersection that a lot of people find themselves.

Erica D'Eramo 22:04

Yeah. I mean, class. So there's, the book I'm reading right now is called Caste. I'm a little late to the game, but I wanted to be able to give this one the focus that it deserved, and, and it it talks a lot about I mean race and caste being very much related in the United States, but that there is this economic, social hierarchy that is more complex than just race. So in the US like race is, one of the ways that we determine, it's like one of the primary ways that we determine caste, but it's it's just it is a, I mean, if this is a topic that interests people, if intersectionality interests people, I highly recommend that book because it definitely takes a more complex look at how this manifests through class, socio economic status, intergenerational wealth, and kind of trauma and oppression. Really light stuff. Real light reading? So what are some other? So what are some other intersections that we see a lot, that maybe we aren't thinking about?

Kamilah Cole 23:24

Disability, especially, like, it's also something especially since not all disabilities are visible, you know? That's definitely an intersection people find themselves at and also a place where, you know, the workplace can get really hairy, it can get really inaccessible, or just in general, not a friendly place to be so.

Erica D'Eramo 23:55

Yeah, I mean, if you even just look at, like, the strong Black woman kind of trope, right, that we've placed on an entire population of people that makes it very hard to show vulnerability to show depression and like, like somehow depression isn't affecting Black women who are bearing like,

Kamilah Cole 24:27

Yeah,

Erica D'Eramo 24:27

more burden than a lot of other people. So yeah, I mean, and, and also, like we said, how it is treated and accepted. Culturally, especially like in first generation, families. I'm, I'm now third generation Italian American. But I can say that like, depression, alcoholism, ADHD, some of that stuff was just like, it was not talked about you needed to buckle up and toughen up and just live in misery. Right? And now. Now it's becoming like, more accepted in in, I don't know, like my, my networks to talk about these things and to be vulnerable, but there are still plenty of populations in this country and everywhere where mental health issues are seen as a weakness or a flaw.

Kamilah Cole 25:29

Definitely.

Erica D'Eramo 25:30

Yeah. So I mean, one topic that came up to me, or that came up in a recent conversation that I was having was with a good friend of mine. She and her wife have kids, and she was talking about how, you know, especially during the pandemic, like, how they decided which person was going to do primary child care and scale back her hours at work and how in their case, you know, you can end up with both female parents on like a mommy track when they have kids, right, both of them facing a gender wage gap, both of them facing more difficulty in securing loans or financing or mortgages. And facing that discrimination. So in that way, kind of like sexual orientation, gender, and class had a really interesting intersection that I don't I don't know why it hadn't really occurred to me until then that like, Oh, yeah. I mean, you're both facing the wage gap. Yeah. And the mommy track?

Kamilah Cole 26:36

Track. Yeah.

Erica D'Eramo 26:38

Mm hmm.

Kamilah Cole 26:39

And that's another thing, you know, you during the pandemic, when there were, a lot of people got to work from home. But there were also a large number of people whose job just could not go remote, you know, and then that puts them in this really precarious situation where their kids aren't going to school, they still have to go to work in a pandemic. And I can imagine that, I mean, I, you know, how many 1000s of stories of that had there have there possibly been, you know, during the, like, really thick parts of the pandemic that, you know, we don't really talk about, like, these are the things that women are going through, especially women of color, who are making less and also potentially raising up children, you know, as well on that less money. Um, yeah, so,

Erica D'Eramo 27:38

Yeah, I mean, we we definitely saw COVID exacerbate issues. Well, I mean, in women's engagement in the workforce dropped to levels that we haven't seen since 1980. We lost like 30 years of progress with women's participation in the labor market. And we know that COVID hit communities of color are particularly hard in particularly devastating ways. So yeah,

Kamilah Cole 28:06

Yeah. Yeah.

Erica D'Eramo 28:09

Okay, I have another interesting one, ethnicity and race.

Kamilah Cole 28:13

Mm hmm.

Erica D'Eramo 28:15

Those are the same thing. Right?

Kamilah Cole 28:16

They are not.

Erica D'Eramo 28:17

Oh, tell me more!

Kamilah Cole 28:21

Well, your ethnicity is more about the country, the place the region that your people are from. I remember growing up, a lot of people were moving towards using the term African American to describe every single, dark, brown person that they met. And so but my mother, for instance, never identified as African American. And I actually have never liked the term African American. But my mother,

Erica D'Eramo 28:59

For you or for everyone?

Kamilah Cole 29:00

For me.

Erica D'Eramo 29:02

For you. Yeah.

Kamilah Cole 29:03

I can't speak for everyone. I don't know all the people. I'm

Erica D'Eramo 29:09

Just clarifying

Kamilah Cole 29:10

Just clarifying, yeah. But I remember being sort of shocked when my mother said, I'm not African American. And I was like, Oh, that must have been in like, middle school or early high school. I was like, Oh, yeah, no, that makes sense. You're not from America. But she did identify as Black. So her ethnicity is Jamaican, and her race is Black.

Erica D'Eramo 29:41

Emmanuel Acho's book, Awkward Conversations With A Black Man, kind of talks about this because his family also identifies, like, he also is, I think, first generation from an immigrant family and he kind of responds to like, questions he gets and one of the questions is around like, Can I, should I use the term African American should I use the term Black? And he's kind of like, well, you should just ask people how they identify. You just don't know. You just do know, we can't assume. But

Kamilah Cole 30:16

I think you should always just ask.

Erica D'Eramo 30:19

Yeah.

Kamilah Cole 30:20

I mean if you want. If it matters to what you your dealings with this person, I suppose you know, if you're in line,

Erica D'Eramo 30:28

If it's, if it's germane. Yeah. Like, we're not advising for anyone to just go around asking like, Hello, are you identify as Black or African American?

Kamilah Cole 30:40

If you're in line at your local Target, please don't do such things.

Erica D'Eramo 30:44

Please don't.

Kamilah Cole 30:44

But yeah,

Erica D'Eramo 30:45

Yeah.

Kamilah Cole 30:46

But I think people are afraid. You know, in an effort, I think there's always been this concerted effort to get people to not talk about race, because there's this fallacy that if you talk about it, it will exist, but it already exists. In one shape or the other. So, you know, I encourage people to not be afraid to just ask.

Erica D'Eramo 31:16

Yeah, like, respectfully,

Kamilah Cole 31:18

Respectfully like, and I like to I like to lead with, I identify as X, Y, and Z. How do you identify that's a great way to get into somebody's business and find out...

Erica D'Eramo 31:32

Yeah,

Kamilah Cole 31:33

...what they are

Erica D'Eramo 31:33

Again, like if it's germane,

Kamilah Cole 31:35

Yeah,

Erica D'Eramo 31:35

I think, right? Like, if it's, if you're trying to be respectful, and you need to use a term, just don't don't be assuming. This comes this also applies to like orientation. Right? I mean, let people self identify. Yeah, but don't expect them to educate you. That's my caveat. Right? Like, if you're gonna ask them how they identify.

Kamilah Cole 32:05

Yeah, if you need more information Google is free.

Erica D'Eramo 32:13

Google is free. Yeah. I mean, and not just Google, right. There are so many really good resources out there. Doing research this day. These days. Yeah, yeah, books, podcasts. There's Yahoo, or YouTube? Um, yeah, there's plenty of resources...

Kamilah Cole 32:37

Definitely.

Erica D'Eramo 32:38

So. So you asked me how I identify like, I think it's interesting, too, because we, you and I have talked about how white is an intersection too, right? Because when we assume that white is not, we assume white as the default.

Kamilah Cole 32:56

Mm hmm.

Erica D'Eramo 32:57

And everyone else is the other. And so I think like, for me, it's important to recognize how my whiteness shows up and what that means as far as like, especially in terms of privilege. Yeah. And the implications of my actions sometimes. Yeah, thanks for thanks for asking me. So we wanted to talk about how it manifests in the workplace. We talked about a little bit of that with Pride Month and are like different designated months where you get to be the certain thing.

Kamilah Cole 33:32

Yeah.

Erica D'Eramo 33:33

More of that thing than other months?

Kamilah Cole 33:35

Yes. Um, yes.

Erica D'Eramo 33:38

I think what another area I see it come through, or lack of intersectionality, I guess, is around kind of these BRGs or business resource groups or employee resource groups, where they will sometimes elevate voices of people, you know, who are wearing multiple different hats and identities, but often the focus is around, like coming together around this one trait and how that exists in the company and how they can support each other in that one way. And it can sometimes disregard intersectionality, right, like women's groups. I have heard about certain companies where, say, you know, like, the women's group might host something around uh Black History Month, and it's led by white women. And not you know, and not a Black woman has been consulted on on this or asked for their input. So, I think we need to be a little careful.

Kamilah Cole 34:56

Exactly. I also see it come up in the ways of like, Hmm, I found in corporate spaces, if there is a chance to connect you with a mentor or a mentee, there is definitely a push to connect you with someone who is just like you, but maybe is not actually just like you.

Erica D'Eramo 35:22

Like at all,

Kamilah Cole 35:24

At all. For instance, I would say for instance, if I entered a new workplace, and they tried to connect me with someone who was very religious, I wouldn't have a problem with it. But I could see if they wanted to hold my hand and pray. And I said, No. And they were upset, you know, like that could cause an issue. And we may both be Black people, we may both be Black women, but like, that is an area that could potentially cause some rift between us, you know, if somebody's, not a rift, Wow, that sounds really horrible. Um not like a fight. But you know, like, I just think that,

Erica D'Eramo 36:10

Yeah.

Kamilah Cole 36:12

That's an example cuz I know of some people I've know of workplaces where it was, a lot of it was all Black people, and a variety of ages of Black people. And so the culture really skewed very religious, and there was regular praying together, in like, before meetings, and events. And so if you're someone like me, who doesn't ascribe to organized religion, that may feel uncomfortable, but, you know, everybody out, you data, that's an intersection that the people in that room would not think about, necessarily, right? And how that sort of manifests?

Erica D'Eramo 37:03

Yeah, because you are, these are like, we're going farther down the iceberg, right? Like, the, the visibility of some of these differences. And sometimes we wear indicators of what our religious affiliation is, or spiritual affiliation. And sometimes we are very out in the workplace, or we give indications of that. But oftentimes, you don't know you don't know about the people's disabilities, you don't know about their religion, you don't know about their orientation, or gender identity? Don't know.

Kamilah Cole 37:39

No, you do not know. And also, you know, especially in terms of like, gender, you don't know where they are in the, you know, like, what am I saying, people intersections, or are moving living breathing things? And so some, you know, I'm likely always going to be Black, but I may not always identify as a woman. I may not, you know, I think we also need to be open to the possibility that people's identities shift over time and in in different ways.

Erica D'Eramo 38:18

Yeah. I mean, and, and what's going on in the world, sometimes can force sort of a prioritization, I guess, of like, how you would rank that those identities like how, you know, if I said, "How do you identify?" just the very order in which you describe those different identities can change over time? Yeah. I think like way back when, when I was a bit younger and naiver? More, more naive, naiver? More naive.

Kamilah Cole 38:57

More naive.

Erica D'Eramo 38:57

Um definitely more naive. Um, I think I like asked you kind of, what do you see as your primary identity? Like if you had to choose sides, like what would it be? Would it be like queer? woman? Black like, and, yeah,

Kamilah Cole 39:19

And there was a time when I was also younger and naivier, more naive, that I would have probably maybe told you Black because I felt like I had to choose Black. There has been a notion, I mean it still persists that you are within the Black community that you are you could potentially be, you're Black first before everything else. And certain certainly in the perception of other people. You are Black first before anything else because people perceive you. People use their eyes typically to determine who you are whatever, at least, like get a guesstimate of who you are. And so, but now, now that, thank you to Professor Crenshaw, I have a word. It's called intersectionality. I don't have to guess I live right.

Erica D'Eramo 40:20

And be all the things.

Kamilah Cole 40:21

...in the right place, I am all the things at the same time all the time, to varying degrees. And I think that's beautiful. You know, I think that

Erica D'Eramo 40:29

Yeah. I mean, so when we were researching this a little bit, um, and we saw the quote from bell hooks, where she she kind of said, the emergence of intersectionality, is it it challenged the notion that gender was the primary factor determining a woman's fate, right, that it might be other things like race, that might be the primary determinant of a woman's fate at that time. And that evolves over time, right. Like, that's different societal shifts and stuff can certainly impact what is going to most affect people at any given time. I want to just to revisit in the workplace intersectionality. I think one of the other areas, and maybe this occurs, you know, in BRGs, maybe this is sort of what I'm thinking about, but when we speak on behalf of people that we think, are just like us, we speak for, you know, when I, if I were to speak for women, right, I am absolutely not able to speak on behalf of most women, actually, yeah. Well, there's one woman I can speak on behalf of, but I mean, I'm just saying, like, to the experiences, the experiences I've had are those of a white woman existing, you know, a financially secure, housing secure white woman. And I think it can be well intentioned. And I think it can be really detrimental. And so an alternative of speaking on behalf of people would be to elevate their voices, right, to like, raise up those voices, make sure those voices are being heard.

Kamilah Cole 42:25

And allowing people to I mean, I think I think, you know, in the workplace, we just really need to consider as many of people's like, identities as possible, you know, like, elevating people, and then sort of, I mean, I think it's, I think you want to stay clear of tokenism. You know, so really honoring that people are, are more than one thing, usually more than two things even. So,

Erica D'Eramo 43:01

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, quite a few. Okay, so for anyone who wants to know more about this topic and educate them a bit more themselves a bit more like where where would you recommend they go?

Kamilah Cole 43:12

Currently, I'm reading an awesome book by Heather McGee. It's called The Sum of Us: What Racism Costs Everyone and How We Can Prosper Together. And it's really focused around the toll that racism has had on people especially in America. And how we can move forward, move on and

Erica D'Eramo 43:37

yeah,

Kamilah Cole 43:38

work well together.

Erica D'Eramo 43:39

When you say the some of us You mean "s u m" or "s o m e,"

Kamilah Cole 43:43

I mean "s u m" the some of

Erica D'Eramo 43:46

Like the mathematical sum. Yeah. My recommendation would be a YouTube series called hashtag RaceAnd, and it's presented by an organization called Race Forward and they have various videos that discuss like "race and" and the different intersections that people kind of face. And there's lots of great voices on Twitter, like one of my favorites that kind of discusses his different intersections is Michael W. Twitty. I love following him for the food, but also his kind of analysis of like religion and orientation and queerness and blackness and and Ijeoma Oluo

Kamilah Cole 44:30

Ijeoma Oluo.

Erica D'Eramo 44:32

Yeah, she's an incredible author, and also has really good commentary on these topics, on Twitter as well. And if you want to work with Two Piers and kind of look at how your organization handles intersectionality and where you could improve some of your offerings or if you need support or resources, then you can find us at twopiersconsulting.com or on any of the social media platforms, so Instagram, Twitter, Facebook and LinkedIn. And with that, thank you so much, Kamilah for coming on and giving us your candid insights.

Kamilah Cole 45:13

Thank you for having me Erica.

Erica D'Eramo 45:15

Really appreciate it.