In this bonus episode to close out Asian Heritage Month, we're joined by Senior Scientist, Noushin Mir, Ph.D., who discusses her personal and professional journey with us and shares her insights and experiences along the way.
Noushin's story begins in Iran where she was an Associate Professor of Chemistry, and continues in the US where she now works in the private sector and continues to publish research. In this episode, we delve into the world of identity and authenticity, and what happens when our options for living authentically are narrowed. Noushin shares with us the internal and external challenges she faced both before and after moving to the US and her vision for a society in which individuals can express themselves authentically and feel included in their community. She discusses her Persian heritage and common misconceptions about what is included in the term "Asian." We also explore how workplace groups such as BRGs/ERGs can be effective.
Thank you to Noushin for sharing her deeply personal story with openness, candor, and authenticity.
Transcript below:
Erica D'Eramo 0:00
Hi there, folks, it's your host, Erica D'Eramo. I am just jumping on before the episode as I sometimes do to remind our listeners that the views expressed in each of our episodes are those of the individuals speaking. So in this case, our guest is just sharing her lived experiences, her opinions and speaking just on behalf of herself. And similarly any views that I express are those of myself and Two Piers. And so we just want to remind our listeners of that, and we hope you enjoy this next episode.
Hello, and welcome to the Two Piers podcast. My name is Erica D'Eramo, and I am the host. So today we have a very special guest joining us to share her story. And it's it's quite an incredible story. So more than just her short story. She'll also be sharing some of her insights and lessons learned and just her perspective. So joining us today is Noushin Mir, a Senior Scientist at GE Appliances a Haier company in Louisville, Kentucky. She's joining us today to discuss both her heritage and life story and to share some thoughts on the Asian Heritage Month and in celebration of Asian Heritage Month. So we are super honored to have her on the podcast and joining us today.
So Noushin is originally from Iran, where she was an associate professor of chemistry for six years before immigrating to the US five years ago. As a woman and a minority hailing from an Eastern culture, she's faced a variety of challenges in her life, which sparked her interest in topics such as feminism and Asian American heritage. So currently, she serves as a committee member of Asia Impact ERG at GE Appliances, leading multiple planning and outreach initiatives to promote awareness and appreciation of Asian culture in America. Her goal is to create a society where everyone, regardless of their background, can express their authentic selves and feel included in the community. So welcome to the podcast. Thank you for joining us Noushin.
Noushin Mir, Ph.D. 2:26
Hello, thank you very much for having me.
Erica D'Eramo 2:29
Yeah. I'm so excited to hear about your story. I mean, you shared a little bit with me already. And I just think this is going to be a really valuable episode for our listeners. So thank you so much for taking the time and joining us today.
Noushin Mir, Ph.D. 2:45
Yeah. I'm also excited to talk about my journey with you.
Erica D'Eramo 2:50
So tell us a little bit about that. So what is your your origin story?
Noushin Mir, Ph.D. 2:55
Yeah, absolutely. So as you say, My name is Noushin Mir. And if I want to introduce myself, in a very short paragraph, I am a woman and a passionate scientist, coming from an Asian culture. And as you mentioned, I'm originally from Iran, that a lot of people consider it Middle East. But I would say that when we went to school, I learned that Iran is in in Asia. So I would say I'm also an Asian. And so asking about my origin story, basically starts from my country, Iran. I was born and raised in Iran. And I lived, I lived there for majority of my life, like until I was around 33. Then about five years ago, I emigrated to the US. And main thing that always revolve around my story is me being a woman in a country like Iran, which currently has a lot of limitations for women.
Erica D'Eramo 4:02
Yeah.
Noushin Mir, Ph.D. 4:02
And that actually made me to seek my true authentic self. Actually, it's a longer story that I will go through it, probably in a minute. But if I want to just give you some highlights about it, being a woman in Iran, basically, can be really tough because you can, you cannot really be your true self. Maybe some people who have similar faith and belief with the country with their sorry, they are with the government, maybe they are living their true self. But for a lot of people that are do not have freedom to speak, and do not have freedom to express their authentic self, their body, their clothing, freedom to speech. For a lot of them being a woman is actually challenging, is a daily battle. And I would say that Initially, maybe I was one of those believers. And I had almost a little issue maybe at first. But then as I grew up and grew older, all of those challenges became more clear to me and I, as I was changing and growing, I realized that how those things affected my personality and how I wasn't really myself. So this is before my immigration, which I tried to be my authentic self. And that's why, at some point, I decided to emigrate. But after immigration, I came to this new world and being this in this new culture, very exciting. But after few years, you kind of come to this understanding that you are a little bit of outsider, because of your culture, because of your view, being a minority in this country. And that actually drew me to get more, become more interested in Asian culture and heritage and how our culture are defined in this country, and trying to bring more awareness around it. So that's why I joined Asia Impact ERG. And so recently, I have been more involved in the committee and trying to bring more awareness, at least to the environment I'm working at. So you can understand that how tough it is that you represent yourself and bring this awareness to this American culture. And so that's what I'm doing. So I can consider myself a feminist. And at the same time person who is interested in Asia culture, heritage, and tries to bring awareness in both areas.
Erica D'Eramo 6:52
Yeah, absolutely. That's the intersectionality part of diversity, right, that we all have these various parts of our identity that come together in different ways. And...
Noushin Mir, Ph.D. 7:06
Right.
Erica D'Eramo 7:06
...that includes, like our heritage, and, and to some extent, our politics, and yeah, and how we show up here, right? Because in Iran, you're one of many Iranians. And then, when you come here, that's, that's the part that becomes different.
Noushin Mir, Ph.D. 7:24
Exactly. Yeah, that's, that's totally right. And the interesting thing is that I learned more about as I learn more about diversity, when I joined this ERG, I realized that diversity has different aspects, and you cannot just limit it to ethnics and race or gender. You know, like me as when I was growing up, we had a handicapped brother in my family, that gave me this feeling of being an outsider, even in my own country. And now that I learn about diversity, I feel that I wasn't, I wasn't fully included, even when I was in my own country, because people looked at us differently. And we had a lot of challenges that wasn't truly appreciated by people. And so that could be a form of diversity. And it's really important to understand and know different forms of diversity when, like, if when you look at American society, you can find a lot of different forms of diversity and it's important for us to embrace them and actually appreciate them and embrace and encode them in society. That is what I learned from my journey.
Erica D'Eramo 8:37
Yeah. Tell me a little bit more about this recognition that you had mentioned around, like living authentically versus having to hide parts of your identity that. That was really fascinating to me.
Noushin Mir, Ph.D. 8:58
Yeah, absolutely. Well, probably your audience know about maybe you have ever heard about a situation in Iran. And we had a revolution, which was an Islamic revolution in 1979, which actually changed everything. So at the time, people were seeking for more freedom. And, you know, the combination of political views of people, religious beliefs, and all the things that played a role. It ended up in this revolution, which was an Islamic and religious. But at the end of the day, after the revolution, everything got worse and people lost more freedom. And that was even more and had more pressure on women. Because based on Islamic law, women cannot, you know, show their hair or body and they basically should be submissive and obedient, quiet, and a lot of decions are made by their either father or husband. And so this Islamic government was trying to, you know, take us to 1400 years ago and implement all these Islamic law, which doesn't really make sense. And so, as we moved to, from that revolution, to like today, I would say that the pressure on women is less intensive. So at first, it was so intense, there was like ones in the street who arrested women even showing like a little bit of their hair. Nowadays, I don't know if you've heard about "women, life, freedom" movement in Iran, which has changed a lot of things. And I know that a lot of women do not wear a scarf, which is something, you know, revolutionary. If I go to Iran and see this, women do not have scarf, that's something, that's a scene to me. So talking about that kind of slight, you know, decreasing pressure, I was being raised, in 90s, I would say, like going to school and all that. So still, there was a lot of pressure on girls, for example, in a school, you are not allowed to wear white socks and white shoes, that was really ridiculous. Like they were, they would come to you. Like when we were forming lines in the morning, to listen to the, I don't know, principal or something, people came and checked our socks to be black. And they also checked our nails, which was actually, I don't know why. But they check our nails, they should be short, something like military. And there was this pressure on girls to wear black, black clothes, because the idea is for you not be seen, to be hidden. You know, if you're quiet, if you're like, submissive, obedient, you're a good girl, and you're a good marriage material. That's a concept basically. So you can imagine how this forces and pressures can shape your identity and character. So I was thinking until I was like, reaching my daughter, I thought, I am an introvert and silent, quiet girl who's really shy, and do not want to talk. And that's how I knew myself. And because I was a believer, I thought everything made sense. Because we were taught that you will be safer if you cover your body, if you don't talk, if you don't show yourself. Because if you do not do that, men will approach to you and I don't know, they will harass you. And this is for your own safety. And that's what I thought. But as I grew up, I actually was a real believer, I traveled to Mecca. I was real Muslim. And so when I went there, some of the changes have started in me because I saw something like because we are Shia there were Sunni, and some things that they were saying was different from ours. And I was starting to think about these differences. Like, at first it was within my religion. But then, when I was a PhD student, I traveled to Germany. And there, that was kind of an "ah ha" moment for me, because, okay, why everybody is safe here. Unlike their clothes and their appearance, so this is not my problem. And my responsibility to keep myself safe, it is government's responsibility to put the right line in place for people to, you know, do not approach and do not harass women or girls. And nothing is wrong with me, I should not hide myself. So actually, all the changes happen there until I became a real atheist today, and so that hiding, like in my country, it doesn't matter whether it was before I changed my beliefs or after that. I always felt that I'm hiding myself, although I was believing in it or not. And it got worse when I stopped believing because I feel that I'm lying. And I'm not representing my true authentic self. And so when I was a faculty at university, I remember we had these classes where, because I wanted to be a tenure. And you know, I had worked so hard for it and I wanted to achieve it. I had a lot of publications. If you look at my Google Scholar or now I think I have 60 or more ISI papers which I put a lot of effort to publish them and I wanted to be to get my tenure. But you had to pass through these kind of cultural or religious tests and classes, you had to take these courses and sit down in these classes and talk to and listen to some clergyman talking about religion. I felt that, oh, my gosh, I cannot explain to you how much I hated those classes, because I could challenge everything that they were saying I could question everything, but I was not allowed. So again, you know, again, hiding myself,
Erica D'Eramo 15:36
Which is kind of interesting, in terms of you pursuing this, like scientific career with inquiry, and based on evidence and facts, and searching and research and, you know, justifying all of your claims, right, because, a background of chemistry, of hard sciences, everything is based on being able to repeat these experiments and show provable results, time and time again, and, you know, scientific methods. So it's interesting.
Noushin Mir, Ph.D. 16:11
Yeah, I'm glad you pointed out, because I think that exactly, that really matches my, you know, everything that I learned through my life, it was evidence base, and when someone talks to you nonsense, you cannot, you know, your brain is not trained to accept that and you start to question and your scientific, maybe part of you is like, why and why and why and nobody can answer your question. And that's the point where you start to doubt everything. And finally, like, someone like me give up.
Erica D'Eramo 16:51
And I'm assuming, as well, in, in those environments, that that question of "why?" might not be received with the same with the same welcome that it would be received, say in a chemistry lab?
Noushin Mir, Ph.D. 17:06
Right. Absolutely.
Yeah.
Erica D'Eramo 17:09
So those kind of forces...
Noushin Mir, Ph.D. 17:11
Good point.
Erica D'Eramo 17:12
...being in opposition. So I'm, I'm curious what, when you chose to study in Germany, what prompted that decision?
Noushin Mir, Ph.D. 17:24
Oh, I actually a lot of different factors, I would say. So, living in Iran, at first, for me, at least, I didn't have anybody around me to travel abroad. So abroad for me was like an alien, you know, land that I was like, I can not go there. It was something out outside of my realm. You know, I never thought
Erica D'Eramo 17:50
That your universe didn't include
Noushin Mir, Ph.D. 17:51
Yeah, exactly. I couldn't think that I, I've heard that. Okay, people go to US or go to different countries. But those people looked really you know, stranger to me. And I never thought that I would be traveling or immigrating. Because it wasn't my family, my relatives, none of them did that. And even the university, I was studying my PhD, nobody around me did research visit or anything like that. I would say that, you know, this movement started around when I was a master or PhD student where everybody kind of realized that there's a way outside the country that you can go and study some, study abroad. And I think a few of my friends around me, they kind of figured out and learned a way to do that. And as I saw, like, one of my close friends emigrated to Canada. That was like, oh, okay, so it's possible, like he she wasn't rich, she wasn't too much talented are more talented than me. So I am an adventurous person, to be honest, I kind of look to different people. Oh! If you have it, I want to have it too. And that was the starting point. But I was the first person in my university, like I was a PhD student and was the first person to go this pathway and nobody knew how to do it, like paperwork and everything. They didn't know anything. So I had to go through a lot of hustles to learn how to do it. And one of the privileges I had was that you know, again, because I look look to other people and my friends are really inspiring around me. Because of when one of my friend was learning English. So I started learning English at young ages. And I thought, okay, I should learn English. I don't know why, but I just need to learn. And because I knew how to speak English, I was able to send emails to professors and kind of get admission. So that's how I got into it, but it was just for me it was exploring at the time. I didn't have any intention to emigrate or anything. And as I said, when I went to Germany, that was a moment, I felt a free, pure freedom. And a pure freedom is something that if you have it, you cannot get back to your previous status of being imprisoned. So, yeah, I would say that,
once the shades come off, there's no putting them back on.
Oh my gosh, exactly. It's so true. So you never can. You never can accept whatever others are telling you that this is the world that you shall live in. Because you have already discovered a new land, you cannot go back to your previous
Erica D'Eramo 20:43
Evidence to the contrary,
Noushin Mir, Ph.D. 20:44
Right? That's true.
Erica D'Eramo 20:49
So how would you say like this seeking of your authentic self, how, what has that journey been like?
Noushin Mir, Ph.D. 20:57
I think that seeking authentic self for me started when I, my beliefs have started to change. So as soon as my beliefs started to change, I felt that all my life has been built on a lie, to be honest with you. Because my mom was really trying to raise me as a religious person. And I always thought that this is, this is the right pathway for me, because this will end to God and you know, all the good things and my safety and security, to be a good person, you know. And when I, my scientific brain started to question and started to understand better about evolution, and everything in place and how it formed, and the universe around me suddenly changed. And for a long time, actually, I was angry with my mom, that why did you do that to me, because I couldn't understand her. But at the end of the day, maybe after one or two years, she told me, she told me really honestly that I didn't know either. I'm not as educated as us. So I don't know what you're talking about the universe, stars, galaxies, talk of evolution, these are your thing, I don't know about it. And I felt that she tried her best to make a good person out of me. And that was enough for me. But that was the point when, okay, when you start to challenge yourself and your beliefs, and then the system around you, which has the same beliefs and is forcing you to be like them. That is something. Yeah, that is something that is really frustrating and overwhelming when you you're not. And this started for many people, was their whole life. But for me, maybe the last years that I was in Iran. Many people like in their family, they don't have this kind of beliefs, and they have to live it in a country where they force it. So yeah, that was, I would say that conflict, this is a very important word for me, when you have conflict in what you believe, and what you do, it is, it is toxic to your well being. And you should find a way to escape from it if you can. Because if you have conflict, and you put a mask every day, and just act like you're not, this is toxic for your mental house, for your personality for your growth, and you never can find the right place where yours and maybe it doesn't show right now, but it will affect your health actually, in the long term, I believe.
Erica D'Eramo 23:54
Acting, so I mean, it's almost more than just the inauthenticity, right? It's like the acting outside of your, your fundamental value system. And when your act, when your actions are not in line with your values that leads to that conflict that you're talking about.
Noushin Mir, Ph.D. 24:12
Right. Yeah, right, exactly. And thing is that maybe even in a country, such as United States, which we have freedom, maybe a lot of people feel that they should hide their true authentic self because of survival because they don't want to make their boss angry. Or you know, because of politics, to be honest. But this is something that we should try our best to be our true self. And that is something which is really give us this kind of comfort and ease and mental, you know, mental ease and mental health actually to to be ourselves.
Erica D'Eramo 24:55
I mean, there's probably there's costs on both sides of it, right? So As you mentioned, sometimes being our authentic selves, there are costs to that, or there might, it might limit your opportunities, especially like before immigrating, right, it sounds like being your true authentic self, would not just limit opportunities, but maybe be downright dangerous to your survival. And also not being authentic, there are costs to it. And so I guess for everybody, it's like a different judgment to make.
Noushin Mir, Ph.D. 25:30
Yeah. And that's actually it's a trade off, I think, you just see what you're trading off. When I was in Iran, I felt like I am trading off my security, my life my survival, because I could be imprisoned. If I wasn't, I was my true self. But here, you should see what you are giving up to gain that true, authentic self.
Erica D'Eramo 25:52
Yeah. And vice versa, what you're giving up by not, right. Yeah, there's, there's kind of a thought leader named Jodi-Ann Burey, who has a TED Talk on, you know, bringing your whole self to work. And I recommend anyone take a look at it. And she kind of talks about the myth of bringing your full self to work, just that a lot of companies will say like, we want you to bring your whole self to work. But then when you show up as your authentic self, if you don't conform to the mold, then you pay a price. And so especially if you're if you're a person of color, if you're a woman, if you're, you know, if you've immigrated to the US. So I think that it's an interesting exploration. And so that kind of bridges me to asking when you did move, and you were, you know, working to be more authentic and live within your value system, what were some of the the challenges that you faced once you arrived here?
Noushin Mir, Ph.D. 26:54
Yeah, that's actually a good question. So basically, I don't know if you can call it being authentic self. Because if I want to be my authentic self, right now, I should start speaking Farsi to you. And that's something which we should kind of realize the difference. Or maybe we can call it adaption, you know, adaptation, to the situation that we are going to leave our rest of our life because everything is changing. So you are facing a new culture, new language, you should learn new with slangs. And probably a lot of time, you have to hide your authentic self. Like, for example, in my country, there are movements going on, a lot of actions. We are protesting here. And I go to work. And I should ask, okay, how was your weekend? You know, this is a common question you asked in the morning, on Monday, and people expect you to say, "Oh, I had a good weekend, I chilled out." But that's not true. Because you were all, your brain, and mind and heart this was with your people. So that is something really challenging for me here. To try to be my authentic self, and at the same time to adapt with the culture.
Erica D'Eramo 28:14
I love that comparison to language actually, when you say like you should, you know, if you were being truly authentic, you'd be speaking Farsi to me, because actually, when I don't know if this is still true for you, but I do find when I'm trying to speak another language, that is not the language I normally dream in. It is so much more exhausting for me at the end of the day, like if I've been trying to, if I've been speaking in a different language for like hours at a time, I am physically exhausted. That probably has a lot to do with like my fluency level, I'm sure, but still, it's that switching that creates so much more energy expenditure.
Noushin Mir, Ph.D. 28:58
Right? Yes, exactly. But I mean, language is a barrier for sure for every immigrant to this country. But at the same time, there are some cultural barriers that you have to overcome,
Erica D'Eramo 29:11
Right? Like that extrapolating of Sure, language is just something that we can talk about, like easily as an example. But to extrapolate that to all of the code switching that happens when somebody asks you how your weekend was right? And you have to like, decide, do I tell them the reality that I was checking WhatsApp or whatever, right? Like constantly for news or, you know, do I paste over it and give a happy barbecue story?
Noushin Mir, Ph.D. 29:42
Right. Exactly. I liked the barbecue example. Exactly. That's what what you have to decide at the moment because, you know, a lot of time you want to share it with your colleagues but like many other things you prefer not to bother people around you. And so just find someone that really understand you. And you end up having more connection with your own people rather than, like native American people or other cultures. And that's something that, you know, it's a barrier, because you want to be in your comfort zone, you want to be in your community. But at the same time, you are missing out on the opportunity to connect with people from this country and involve and be encoded better in the culture learn more.
Erica D'Eramo 30:33
Yeah. Yeah, again, I'm sure a series of trade offs and there's there must be like a balance, I guess that's right for each individual. So what would you say some of the cultural distinctions have been or differences have been that you've, you've seen in your kind of observation?
Noushin Mir, Ph.D. 30:58
Yeah, that's actually a very interesting topic that we also discuss it a lot of time in our Asia Impact ERG. And we have a lot of events around that. And that's mainly, I will say, hierarchy. Because in Asian culture, you have this hierarchy in place, especially in corporate culture, where the more obedient person you are, the like, the more likeable you are. And then that comes with the culture because the more you listen to your boss more like you, and it is exactly the opposite here. Here, they want you to talk to speak up. And it's more based on equity culture than hierarchy, which brings a lot of challenges to people from Asia, because they come with the same mindset that okay, I shall listen, I should not talk or should not speak up. But then after a while, they realize that they are losing opportunities because of that, because people think that they don't have any opinion. And here, managers and leaders are always trying to motivate and give you the opportunity to speak up, but you have to overcome your shyness and whatever you learn in your life as a value, to be able to grow. And so you have two barriers. One is yourself, that doesn't allow you to speak up, you get nervous and you and you know, the language is also in place, you have to overcome the language barrier and yourself and your self confidence. And then you have to compete with other people with native language and more maybe abilities to speak up. And, you know, they're easy to talk. So this is one of the main main differences in the culture.
Erica D'Eramo 32:58
And I mean, we're making very broad generalizations here that I'm sure are not applicable to all like, quote, Eastern, Western, whatever. And I remember when we were talking about Eastern and Western, and you mentioned like, Eastern compared to what, Western compared to what? Yes, yes, that you will definitely there is this one tool called to Hofstede's cultural dimensions, that's interesting. And so I'll just mention it here in case somebody, you know, anyone wants to look into this a bit more, I think they even have like a website, Hofstede Insights, where you can kind of put in different countries and see where they measure on different dimensions like hierarchy, or kind of communal versus independent and, and stuff like that. So some trends there based on these larger regions, like North America or Asia, but like you say, Asia is so, such a vast, right, like, continent, I guess?
Noushin Mir, Ph.D. 34:08
Yeah, exactly. And that's, that's a good point. I wanted to mention that, like people from South America, maybe they have more things in common than us, because at least they speak same language except Portuguese. But we speak a lot of different languages, we have a lot of different cultures, which at the same time, makes it exciting, but challenging because we have the challenge to connect to each other. You know, and, and that's actually something that we always talk about it and see, okay, how different we are even like you consider a country like India. They don't speak the same language is now in all areas. That is really interesting and fascinating at the same time, by the same time you have more barriers in place.
Erica D'Eramo 34:58
Yeah, I mean, Just to think through like the cultural differences, even even if you were to look at the cultural differences in like Far East Asia, right between, say, Mainland China versus Japan versus, you know, then like Southeast Asia, all of these areas have very different cultural elements. But I also, there are probably some broad similarities in certain challenges. And so the one that you bring up about, like, the expectations being different around hierarchy, or kind of speaking up is, is an interesting one. And it's not like there's good or bad or right or wrong, it's that the expectations are different here. The like, norms are different here.
Noushin Mir, Ph.D. 35:49
Yeah, absolutely.
Erica D'Eramo 35:51
I still remember when I, at one point in my offshore career, got feedback that I was being very American, and not respecting the British culture in the fact that I would speak up and give my opinion to my bosses. Who were British. And I had to laugh because even there, right, like, even though the UK is a European set of countries, they similarly have like, very strong hierarchy expectations. And, you know, tied to class. So,
Noushin Mir, Ph.D. 36:32
Yeah, I'm glad you mentioned that, because maybe there are you kind of felt how we felt in Iran or in Asian culture. Like, whenever you speak up, you find yourself as a rebellion. Or it's kind of an image that you build around yourself whenever you want to speak up, and maybe be your authentic self. And it is actually kind of the look you get from people is kind of a punishment for you to stop you there. And not to go further.
Erica D'Eramo 37:05
Yeah. And then the rules change when you come to the US and
Noushin Mir, Ph.D. 37:09
Absolutely.
Erica D'Eramo 37:11
So how did that realization happen for you? Like, how did how did you come to that realization about, you know, speaking up, or the different expectations that you found when you
Noushin Mir, Ph.D. 37:21
I think it was when I first joined industry? Because when I came to us first I was doing a postdoc position in Virginia, and then after a year, I was going to decide about my career, do I want to stay in academia? Or do I want to move to industry? And at that point, I felt the industry suits my desires better, because I am more, you know, my research and discoveries more towards applications. And so I felt that, okay, industrial might be a better place for me. So I applied for a job. And I got this position in this company, in Atlanta, Georgia. And there, I had a very inspiring leader, who actually, he really cared about me being women in this male dominant industry. And he put a mentor for me, a lady who kind of became my lead, my mentor, and everything he did was really kind of bringing, bringing this awareness to me that, okay, I should speak up. And so he, as soon as I joined, although my job wasn't leadership and managing. After a few months, he gave me this responsibility to supervise some more people. And that was a moment that he pushed me through, you know, managing meetings, speaking, although I, I found my English terrible at the time, I didn't feel enough self confidence to, you know, to lead a meeting that everybody else is native American, and how I want to speak how all my English pronunciation would be wrong. But giving me this space actually taught me that I am valuable in this hierarchy. I mean, there's there's limited hierarchy here. And wherever I am positioned that I am valuable, and they need me to speak up, even though my language isn't as them, even though my accent is different. But they need myself as a individual to give my opinion, and that was really important to them. So that was a moment for me to kind of come to this understanding that this is a different culture, I should act differently.
Erica D'Eramo 39:45
Yeah. So it wasn't just execution. It was like your your difference in thought and the ideas and brainpower that you brought that
Noushin Mir, Ph.D. 39:54
Exactly right, right.
Erica D'Eramo 39:57
Yeah, that's great that he, you know, provided the support while pushing you outside your, your comfort zone.
Noushin Mir, Ph.D. 40:03
Comfort zone, yes. And that was interesting. Like I was I remember I was in this meeting, and I was pronouncing your word incorrectly throughout the meeting. I didn't know about it. But that was very interesting. Nobody really told me until after meeting, wasn't it, I kind of suspected, maybe I'm telling this wrong. And I checked, it was totally wrong. So I check all the dictionaries, like maybe it's in British accent is correct. But it was totally wrong. But the fact that they never told me was actually really supportive of them, you know, they led me to learn myself. And still they, I'm accountable. I'm a person that they kind of make me accountable. And they trust me. This is very important, I think for every manager, everybody, everybody in the organization to consider.
Erica D'Eramo 40:59
Yeah, yeah, it's one thing to be given, to be told that you are leading a group of people or an effort, but then have somebody second guessing you are coming in and micromanaging, that's not really what it looks like. It's kind of make your mistakes and and learn from mistakes the hard way sometimes, right? Yeah. Absolutely. So eventually, you started to become involved in the Asia Impact ERG that you mentioned earlier. So what brought you to that? And do you want to tell us a little bit about your involvement?
Noushin Mir, Ph.D. 41:37
Yes, sure. I joined in GE about two years ago. So we moved to Kentucky, Louisville, Kentucky. And at first, it was COVID time, and I was feeling really alone, because I had already adapted to my previous company's culture found many friends there. But then coming here, bigger company. I was feeling really lonely, to be honest. And then this volunteering opportunity came up with Asia Impact. And they wanted, it was actually the same time last year. For AAPI Month, they have a lot of events, and they needed volunteers. So I happily volunteered and helped them and I found this group of people really welcoming and as a family. So I connected to them. And I decided to apply for committee membership. And then I became a committee member. And through the past year, I had spent so much time with these people, they're really welcoming to, let's say, it's actually within my comfort zone. So that's the first reason maybe I joined. But then I became more and more interested in understanding diversity and inclusion, and how I can bring this awareness to the company about Asian culture. So we almost hold everything, all the events that we have in Asia, different countries. Because I think that's one part, which is more, let's say advertising, to American people to learn about our celebrations and our culture food, which is always really something people are interested. So we had Diwali. We had Chinese New Year, and many small events in between. And then it came to March, which is Persian New Year, and I am one of the few Iranian people in my organization. And that was a time that I said, "Okay, we also have a celebration, I usually recognize it." And they happily accepted. But actually, I was the main person responsible for holding this event. And we held this Persian New Year celebration in the company in March. And during that event, I actually taught people how to dance do Persian dance. Yeah, if you're interested in the video is on my LinkedIn page, you can go and watch. Well, that was something that everybody really enjoyed. And they were like, Oh, how did you teach, teach us how to dance. They were really amazed with it. I felt that okay, I'm really contributing here. I'm actually showing them something that they never experienced, and they didn't know anything, they haven't heard about our new year, which is something big in our country and is rooted in our ancient Persian culture. So this is awareness. Maybe just 40 or 50 people were in that event, but still it is an awareness and that I can create here. Which feels really good.
Erica D'Eramo 44:51
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, it makes sense when I lived in Azerbaijan. Actually, Nowrus was a big celebration as well, but you know, Azerbaijan is very geographically and culturally close, I think. Yeah, even the language, I think was originally, like, descended through the Iranian branch.
Noushin Mir, Ph.D. 45:10
Yeah. You have actually like part of Iran is is called Azerbaijan as well.
Erica D'Eramo 45:16
Oh, right, yeah.
Noushin Mir, Ph.D. 45:17
They have the same language with Azerbaijani people.
Erica D'Eramo 45:20
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, looking at how languages flow through the different regions is a fascinating thing. So in terms of the, the ERGs, or sometimes they are also called BRGs. But it sounds like there is a lot of community that you found, which I, that was my experience as well, and programming as well. And how do you... How do you think that companies can best leverage their ERGs? Or I don't think I like that word leverage, necessarily, because I have mixed feelings about ERGs. She's, I think that sometimes companies lean on them too much for like unpaid labor that's not properly rewarded, or, you know, or acknowledged or appreciated, but how best do you think, you know, companies can support ERG's and have them support have the ERGs be supportive of the overall, you know, effort around diversity, equity and inclusion?
Noushin Mir, Ph.D. 46:26
Oh, well, I think the ERG concept actually is something really helpful. We didn't have it in my previous company, we were actually starting the first ERG when I was there. And I never got to really experience it, but I was one of the initiators, then I had to move this to this new role, to this company. But when I joined here, I found like, multiple different ERGs, from women to Asia Impact with Latine, Latino culture impact. And I think we have maybe seven or eight of them. So I believe that ERGs are some, you know, core areas in every business, that can kind of bring a comfort zone to people to join, because when you join a company, you don't know where to start, you don't know how to connect to people as like, especially if it's a big company. But these ERGs are like small islands, that you can join and start to build up your connections. And I think it's really helpful. But at the same time, a lot of people find their comfort zone and stay in there forever. So that's something, I feel that it is organization's responsibility to push people, you know, to other connect to other ERGs or other people in the organization. So just bringing events or holding events around one ERG, and always seeing the same people in that ERG doesn't allow you to connect to other people. So that's one thing, I feel that there should be something there, or, we don't have something like that here. So I feel that in our case, ERGs are like islands. But maybe there's something that organization can do about it, and prevent that segregation in the entire organization.
Erica D'Eramo 48:34
Yeah, I've seen some really powerful events that have been put on by, like ERGs coming together. So I think, so one of the events that I spoke out was actually co hosted by initially offered it to the women's group, but ironically, I think they just had like a lot going on. So it was the Latin American and Hispanic group and the like, mature, more mature group, I think the they used to be called gray matters, but I don't remember what they're called right now. But those two groups paired together to put on this event around authentic leadership. And I just thought it was so great to have that interaction around. You know, one was based on age and experience level, and the other was based on heritage and ethnicity. So not even like the same dimensions of diversity and they kind of cross collaborated, and I see that more and more and I think it's wonderful.
Noushin Mir, Ph.D. 49:32
Yes, I think we also have similar things here. But I still believe that there's room for improvement.
Erica D'Eramo 49:41
Yeah. Cross-polination,.
Noushin Mir, Ph.D. 49:43
Yes, for this cross functionalization in the organization. Another thing I would say that I've seen maybe around me, is that HR should have a better you know, in every organization, I'm talking I should have a good, maybe supervision on that. Because a lot of time you see that people do not, you know, some people participate in ERGs, but some not because their managers actually do not encourage them to do that, because it's okay, you don't want to spend your time something other than work. And that's something cultural, which I feel could be improved.
Erica D'Eramo 50:26
That is the biggest risk that I see around ERGs is that the people who really care to make a difference end up doing this unpaid labor on behalf of the company to try to bring in talent, because it is a talent recruitment and retention tool, right?
Noushin Mir, Ph.D. 50:43
Right.
Erica D'Eramo 50:43
When people come and visit the company and they see groups that celebrate them as individuals and their, in their identities, then they're drawn to join the company, they know they'll have a place there. So it's a benefit to the company. But then when that participation is not only not rewarded through money, or bonus or acknowledgement, but it's almost sometimes seen as like, "Oh, you're doing your extracurricular stuff, because you're not really serious about your real job." Right? It's like almost a...
Noushin Mir, Ph.D. 51:15
Right.
Erica D'Eramo 51:15
Sometimes it can be a danger if you don't have a line manager that is aligned with that. And wants you to be involved with that. Yeah,
Noushin Mir, Ph.D. 51:25
Yeah.
Erica D'Eramo 51:26
So So I guess I absolutely hear what you're saying then that HR and or some level of leadership needs to be really clear about how it's prioritized and valued within the company.
Noushin Mir, Ph.D. 51:40
Exactly. Yeah.
Erica D'Eramo 51:42
Yeah. So what would you say some... It sounds like we've kind of talked about some of the ways that company is, and organizations can be inclusive and supportive through ERGs. what would you say some, some other barriers might be that people might not be aware of in terms of either immigrating to the US or just facing those cultural differences.
Noushin Mir, Ph.D. 52:15
Yeah, I think, probably, if we want to highlight the important ones, a lot of them's, you know, revolve around language, and how we want to speak up, because that's, that's one of the main issues that we have here. Language, you know, is the tool that we connect to people and so we have to learn it correctly, and we have to be able to use it. One of the examples is public speaking skills, that is something really lacking in my culture, to be honest with you, because at school, we don't have a lot of opportunity to talk and to present, unlike here, which I see a lot of folks graduating from college or high school do easily speak and present, represent. So I feel that there are two areas here, it can be worked on. First, any individual can work on it. Like for my experience, there are these Toastmaster classes that I took, which is a really great organization to, for you to be in a friendly environment, and work on your public speaking skills, which is really good for your leadership skills and your career growth. So that's individual part, with you know, besides working on your English or accent, you could take some take some of these courses in your organization such as Toastmaster and from an organization perspective and managers and leaders, again, speaking from my own experience, the fact that leaders that I had always pushed me through and I was gave me the space to overcome the, you know, mental barriers I had about myself or improving myself confidence. That was the thing that I really needed. Because I remember my leader always said that you cannot be a manager until you are a manager. And that means that you should really experience it. Instead of just reading books and just practicing, you should be in the position and that what it takes for an organization is to have a little bit of risk, you know, to trust you and give you the space to practice and maybe make mistakes and learn from it and then start to grow and find your place in the elbow position. So I feel like these two factors are really important, your personal development and also organization that gives you the opportunity to do that.
Erica D'Eramo 55:01
Yeah, I mean that. So the element of communication is interesting, because I mean, it almost goes beyond just the language piece, right? It's the, it's the other subtleties that you mentioned, too, which is like "when" to speak. So many cultures, it's always like the hardest thing to determine is like when, and when to not speak, I guess, as well. And a lot of times, Americans maybe aren't as aware of that second part of when to not speak when they're in other cultures, but then for managers understanding, too, that if somebody is, quote, unquote, naturally quiet, maybe they're not necessarily naturally quiet. But that is simply what they've understood. And it doesn't surprise me that in Iran, they're not holding, like competitions on public speaking, because the power structure there doesn't necessarily benefit by encouraging people to get really good at public speaking. So I think that's an interesting dynamic in cultures where there is a very, like, top down. power structure and a tight hold on power, that like public speaking, I think it's clamped down, right?
Noushin Mir, Ph.D. 56:23
Yeah. Personally, I had a lot of challenges until I was able to freely and confidently speak. And that was a journey for me, as a woman who was always motivated to be quiet and to speak, moving from that personality to a person who can stand on a stage and talk to, I don't know, hundreds of people. It takes a lot of efforts. And it needs, I think it needs both your individual contribution, and organization's support to give you the space and confidence and trust
Erica D'Eramo 57:04
and the space to have it be a little messy along the way, sometimes, right? Like maybe the word won't get pronounced properly. And that's okay. It doesn't have to do with capability, but rather just experience. So
Noushin Mir, Ph.D. 57:18
Right. Yeah,
Erica D'Eramo 57:19
I mean, thank goodness, nobody's asking me to speak publicly in Russian because I know it would be "ochen ploha," very bad. I can't even imagine the day that that might happen.
Noushin Mir, Ph.D. 57:31
You probably can if you live in Russia.
Erica D'Eramo 57:36
Right? Right. If I'm immersed Yeah, I guess, you know, that's true. The immersion part really is part of it, right? Just like you said, you can't learn to be a manager until you are a manager. So much of this is like, on the job, on the life, on life learning, in life learning. So
Noushin Mir, Ph.D. 57:53
Exactly.
Erica D'Eramo 57:54
Yeah. So we really, really appreciate you sharing your experience of, you know, coming into your authenticity and such a big move and what it's been like, transitioning into the US and that journey. Any, anything else that you would like to share with us as some parting thoughts?
Noushin Mir, Ph.D. 58:18
Oh, thank you very much for having me. It was really exciting conversation. And I feel really good for sharing. And actually, one part of the authenticity is for you to be able to share your feelings and emotions. And for me, it was possible through therapy, about six years. And I really, really, I mean, I know it could be challenging financially for a lot of people. But if you have the access to this kind of, you know, services, really use it and experience it because it can give you this opportunity to know yourself better. We always talk about authenticity, but we never consider that many of us do not really know ourselves on our authentic self. And what we want to know in our lives on until we somebody actually takes our hand and takes us to our past and talk about their unconsciousness and what what is lying there. And until we realize that, what is in our unconsciousness, where and why we are acting as we are acting today, we cannot really know ourselves and then that will be another barrier for us to be our authentic self. So that will be my final note to this piece.
Erica D'Eramo 58:29
A nice light note!
Noushin Mir, Ph.D. 59:49
Right.
Erica D'Eramo 59:51
Yeah, I absolutely second that, third it, 100% I think. Knowing ourselves is like a lifelong journey, but the assistance of a therapist is so important. And in coaching people always ask me like, "Do I need a coach or a therapist?" and I'm like, "both." I won't deal with the trauma as a coach, like, I'll be looking forward as the coach. But the therapist is going to look behind and be able to navigate that with you with support. And I, it's interesting that you mentioned that in terms of this podcast and your journey, which we're looking at through the lens of like, Asian Heritage Month. But this is a very active conversation as well in like the neurodiversity realm as people are learning to unmask, and to be more authentic. Oftentimes, the support of a therapist is really, really helpful in that unmasking process and learning like "what is your true self? what isn't your true self? what is adaptive? what is maladaptive?" So...
Noushin Mir, Ph.D. 1:00:56
Right.
Erica D'Eramo 1:00:57
Yeah, yeah, excellent landing, parting thought. Thank you.
Noushin Mir, Ph.D. 1:01:01
Thank you!
Erica D'Eramo 1:01:02
Yeah, thank you so much for joining us and for anyone else who is listening and wants to hear more or learn more about how their company can be better supporting the diversity amongst the ranks and celebrating it and having people be able to bring their full selves to work one day, you can find us at twopiersconsulting.com or on any of your typical social medias, and we look forward to talking to you next episode.