We're kicking off our June 2023 Pride series with Dr. Steve Yacovelli, aka The Gay Leadership Dude. Steve is an expert in diversity and inclusion, change management, and leadership both in and outside of the workplace whose not-so-hidden agenda is to make the world a bit more inclusive for us all.
He’s worked internally for folks like The Walt Disney Company, IBM, Tupperware Brands, and several universities before starting his own consulting firm, TopDog Learning Group in 2008.
In this episode, Steve talks about ways that leaders, (and by leaders, he means all of us), can be more inclusive, and he explores the benefits of inclusion and the costs of organizations not getting it right. Steve also shares an actionable framework for tackling silent collusion.
Link to free resource on combating Silent Collusion (MOP+SAM)
Transcript below:
Erica D'Eramo 0:07
Hello, and welcome to the Two Piers podcast. I'm your host, Erica D'Eramo. And today we have another guest joining us, "The Gay Leadership Dude." So Dr. Yacovelli is an expert in diversity and inclusion but also change management and leadership both in and outside the workplace. He's worked internally for folks like the Walt Disney Company, IBM, Tupperware Brands and several universities before starting his own consulting firm, TopDog Learning Group in 2008. So he's been doing this for a while. Top Dog works with both Fortune 500s and not-for-profit organizations to bring about a more inclusive and effective workplace through on site workshops, virtual. or face to face keynotes, one on one and group coaching sessions and customer learning solutions. So we share that with him. Steve is also an award winning author, speaker and self proclaimed catalyst. So one of our trailblazer in changemaker folks. His latest book, "Pride Leadership: Strategies for the LGBTQ+ Leader to Be the King or Queen of the Jungle" came out in 2019. And his next book, "Your Queer Career: Workplace Advice From the Gay Leadership Dude," comes into the world in early 2023. So it's coming up!
Steve's not so hidden agenda is to make the world a bit more inclusive for us all. So we love that. Thank you so much, Steve, for joining us today.
Dr. Steve Yacovelli 1:48
Thank you so much for having me Erica. Super excited to be here.
Erica D'Eramo 1:51
Yeah, we love the work that you do. We love your ethos, and the investment you've made into the LGBTQ+ community, of which we are a part. So tell us in your own words, a little bit about yourself, and what sort of brought you to this work?
Dr. Steve Yacovelli 2:09
Yeah, thank you for asking. So, Steve Yacovelli, pronouns he/him/his and I am indeed The Gay Leadership Dude. So immediately, if you're listening, you know three things about me: that I'm gay, I self identify as a dude, and I really like to talk about leadership. And that's kind of where my career has been, for the for the most part. I had the good fortune of working for many different bigger companies before kind of doing my own gig with TopDog. I worked for Disney, as you said, I would say, basically as like an internal leadership consultant with the cruise line for several years, which was a sweet, sweet gig, I have to say. Talk about really good business travel. And then I made my way to IBM for a while as a change, change management consultant. I worked as a professor for like a hot minute, it wasn't my jam. And then eventually, I took the side hustle that was TopDog with me and my friend that we started actually 2002 and in 2008, decided to see what happens as a full time venture. And that's what I've been doing *knock on wood* ever since.
Erica D'Eramo 3:13
Awesome. And what would you say, like, what was the catalyst that made you feel like this was the area that needed to be addressed? That kind of emotionally drew you to it?
Dr. Steve Yacovelli 3:23
I, you know, I, I love that you asked this. And I've been reflecting on it for a while. And it really started when I was in fourth grade, believe it or not, because I was really trying to think like, when did I really start to understand and appreciate and have empathy for people who are different. And I trace it back to my, I was one of those nerdy gifted kids. And for the entire year of my fourth year, my fourth grade year, so we didn't have enough kids for like a big class of the fourth graders and fifth graders were together. And so we spent the entire year focusing on people with different abilities. You know, at the time, we called them handicapped, which, of course, is not what you do now. But like the whole entire year, we focused on people with different abilities. And I just that was so darn cool. And it was just like we just thought about our world, but then through the lens of somebody who uses a wheelchair or somebody who is visually impaired and things of that nature, and it was just so cool. Then we had to, as like a final exam, we had to create something that betters the lives of another person within that community. And so I know, I'm totally dating myself back in the day, remember Rubik's cubes and stuff. So I invented with my one friend, you know, a Rubik's cube for blind folks. And and we got like the I grew up in Pennsylvania. So we got like all these awards from the state of Pennsylvania and I still have the mug. Matter of fact, I'm not kidding. This was not planned. It's right here. Sitting on my desk, that I got appreciation for the Pennsylvania Federation, Council for Exceptional Children. And then we got a fancy dinner at like, Outback or something like that. I don't know what it was. But that was the moment that planted the seed for me to have empathy for people who who experienced life differently than me. And that kind of has kind of traveled all the way up until my ripe old age of 52.
Erica D'Eramo 5:15
Yeah, that's like your your changemaker origin story. I love it. Yeah, I feel like everyone who does this type of work, which can sometimes be a bit, sometimes it can be a bit thankless, but it's always so rewarding. But it's it certainly has its challenges. I feel like a lot of us have that sort of origin story behind it, where there was something that really drew us to it, where we saw the impact, or we saw the gap, you know, in support or the gap in services. So what would you say? You know, just like right out the gates when you're doing work in this area, what would you say some of like, the biggest myths or misconceptions are that you come across, or that you encounter?
Dr. Steve Yacovelli 6:01
One of the ones that it sadly makes me laugh, but it also makes me sad at the same time, is when I start to work with a potential client, and we call them client partners at TopDog learning group, but you know, client partner, we're having that first chat. And like, I always ask, you know, "So how would you rate your organization's level of inclusiveness and desire to create that sense of belonging?" "Oh, we are so inclusive, we have blank month." And it's like Womp womp. Lovely start friends, let's talk deeper than what the food looks like and impacts. Exactly that performative ally ship. Yay. So you know, and I think that's one of the biggest misconceptions is, there's a lot of organizations, even really massive, big ones who appear to be super inclusive. But then when you start to dig a little bit further, you're like, Oh, you're just like, get trying to get the 100 on the HRC corporate index, and you're really not walking the walk kind of stuff. And one of the ways you can tell this is where the money goes, you know, and you know
Erica D'Eramo 7:03
100 right.
Dr. Steve Yacovelli 7:04
As we're recording this, you know, the World Cup is raging. And I am flabbergasted to see how many big giant logos are sponsoring this very controversial event in a country that really doesn't like my people. It doesn't like the queer community. And yet, here's these companies that you were at all these massive conferences I was just at this year saying, "Yeah, here's some rainbow swag. We love the queers. Whoo." And then you're given all this money to sponsor an event that's in a country that deems my marriage my husband illegal. It's like, a little weird.
Erica D'Eramo 7:39
Yeah. Or like the the spend for the programming is so minimal, that they have to essentially ask people who are origin already in the marginalized communities that they're targeting to do extra labor in the workplace that they will, that's non promotable, and they won't fund it. And there you go.
Dr. Steve Yacovelli 7:59
It's funny, you know, one of the big areas we focus on is work, is supporting employee resource groups, or whatever company name, they call them affinity groups and all that good stuff. And, you know, I work with a lot of big, big Fortune 500, 100s. But I always know going into them like, "Okay, I've ran ERGs, I've also been a part of them. I know, your budget is probably blah," and they're like, "how do you know?" I'm like, because that's usually how it is, unfortunately. So I cut my keynote rates back for them, because I know that they can't afford it or, it'll like, take all of their budget. I'm like, you know, no, you need to other programmings
Erica D'Eramo 8:36
Yeah, we literally have it on our website, that we understand that the funding is a barrier to a lot of this great programming, because, yeah, I mean, so, so the myth behind that. What would you if you were to distill it down? Kind of what do you think the misconception is there, then?
Dr. Steve Yacovelli 8:56
Well, I always ask, and I just had a coaching conversation this week about this, because one of my coachees in... so I have an um, you talked about pride leadership, my book, and that actually was meant to be a textbook for an LGBTQ PLU, and ally leadership program called the Lions Program. And so one of my, it's really fun, if I, if I can, actually, that's my desire is to just do that 100%. My team are smart, they can run the rest of the TopDog, and I just do the career leadership stuff. But one of my coachees that I was having a chat with, said, "You know, I don't even know if my Fortune 100, no lie, is really that supportive of me as a trans man." And I said, "you know, what is the best, and I don't know your org chart off the top of my head, but where does the diversity inclusion function sit?" And he's just like, "I don't know," I said, "Is it is it at the C suite? Is it up as a strategy, a business development strategy, because that's where it kind of should be. If it's buried 17 layers into the human resource function, that's a telling sign right there." And and of course, this particular person is a scientist. So I used to talk in nerdy science. I said, "It's a data point," I said, "You know what to do with a data point you, you gather a bunch of them up, and then you make an assessment." I said, "So gather some of these data points up to see really how inclusive is my workplace," because if the D&I function is buried, if you know that your employee resource group is insanely underfunded, you know, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera, if the chief diversity officer has like 17 other jobs, those are telling data points of the level of interest that that particular workplace really has in fostering an inclusive workplace. So, data points are a good thing.
Erica D'Eramo 10:38
Right. Right. Because if you see it, DEI, or justice or being a part of the core strategy of a company, then you don't relegate it to being just a cost center, right, you see as literally being core to the success of the company. And so you wouldn't put like safety under HR, you wouldn't put audit under HR, right, even though those don't necessarily kind of turn a profit for the company. They're not profit centers. But you would, you certainly wouldn't relegate them under kind of the, like, warm and fuzzy stuff.
Dr. Steve Yacovelli 11:18
Exactly.
Erica D'Eramo 11:19
As part of the company. Yeah, yeah, I love that,
Dr. Steve Yacovelli 11:21
There was an article years years years ago, in Fast Company. And it was when I was actually working at a, as global head of leadership for a large company at one point. And I remember I got Fast Company in my mailbox. And the title was, "Why We Hate HR." And I just kind of spit out my coffee. I'm like, "what?!" and I read the article. It was fascinating. And it was, because you and this is not a gross generalization, of course, to all my HR professionals listening, which I hope you are. But there, at the time, was the perception that HR was just the party planners and the benefits folks, and not the real strategist and business changers, that they really are and can be. And I, that always stuck in my head, that if HR in the workplace, in your particular workplace is being seen as like, you give us benefits, and you tell us what our PTO is, and then you do celebrations. And that's it. Then that's wrong. HR should be one of the biggest differentiators between your business and biggest strategies for attracting and retaining good talent. And if you're not treating it as such, then you're, you as a business are missing the boat.
Erica D'Eramo 12:28
Yeah, I think that's why I prefer to think of the relationship between diversity, equity inclusion... there's, certainly HR is one of the key stakeholders and key implementers of a lot of the the tenets around that. But however, the organization handles organizational capability, and often that does either fall under HR or relate very closely to HR. But it, like you said, it, it kind of has to be tied into the top of the company, because it also sits in all of the other organizations as well for how that's implemented. And so, yeah, a lot of times my, my I, I do want to say my direct clients are often sitting in HR, right. And I feel so much for the folks who have been tasked with implementing this. And I see them as being the people that I can really support to drive the change. But yeah,
Dr. Steve Yacovelli 13:22
And I love that you said that, Erica, because one of the things that I am so happy on that my profession professional path led me down, was playing a lot in change management. And, you know, because I was a D, I was a learning development person, you know, by by trade, that was kind of my jam, I love making training and delivering training, it was awesome. But then I fell into the change management piece when I was an IBMer, and it completely changed how I do all of my work. So even though we're TopDog Learning Group, the first question out of my mouth with any client engagement is, how are you going to measure the impact of what we're going to talk about? And so and that's, that's so universal, that's about creating an inclusive workplace and a sense of belonging, that's about implementing a new business process that's putting a leadership training program together, they're all the same. If you approach it as this is a business, you're about to spend money, how you gonna know when it works? And what's the impact to your bottom line, even if you're nonprofit, you still have a bottom line. And so it's having that thought process and then thinking through, sure we have we have a training program. Yes, Top Dog Learning Group can do that the Gay Leadership Dude's happy to do that. But what about the other pieces? What about the change communication part? What about the executive sponsorship that's visible to the rest of the company? Like the components of a real change program are what makes workplace change in the culture and the leadership and all the other initiatives you want to do, but if it doesn't have that visible executive sponsorship and that communication, it's the it's not... training is not a silver bullet friends and that's what so many people sadly think.
Erica D'Eramo 14:51
Yeah, I think the change management lens is a really powerful one because so often when we ask people like "Well, what is the what is the vision? Like what's the end state that we're trying to implement? What's the change that you want to see?" And there's just like, often blank stares. Because I think a lot of times people come to questions around DE&I based on wanting to do the right thing, but not necessarily envisioning what that changed state looks like, and what the... So then what's your argument for change? What's your motivator for change? And like, that's sort of the initiating factor for any major change and change management theory. Right? It's like the why, why are we going to do this? What are we doing?
Dr. Steve Yacovelli 15:30
Yeah, and I think the urgency Yeah, like what's, what's what's, what's the business reason, and that's when I ever I start any of our workshops. Especially with with folks who I know are more voluntold to be in my sessions, you know. There's some awesome executive wanted to go down the road, the world of inclusion, awesome sauce. And then I have all these executives. And and, you know, I'm not going to generalize and say a lot of times where middle aged white dudes, but my client base that's not uncommon. And so I start with, "You know, what, if you think about it, there's a continuum on why we as a workplace want to go down this path. On one side, it's, it's the legal things, it keeps us out of hot water. So there's that. On the complete opposite side is, you know what, it makes the world better. And I'm there hopefully, maybe some point friends in the room, you will to get there too. But in the middle is the business case. And that's where we start." I said, if you can just come along with me, and just agree that this is going to be good for your bottom line, that's where we're going to start and then maybe down the road, you'll be able to see the value in this makes the world a hell of a lot better. And so they're like, "Okay," and that's kind of how I hook them and get them on that journey. And then I hahaha, switch.
Erica D'Eramo 16:39
The "Why not both?" meme, right? Like, it's, it is both, it will both make the world a better place. And also, you're not a philanthropy, right? Like a lot of these? Well, the not for profits are but they have already right. But the the ones that are a business entity, it's like, "Well, if that's your only reason is because it's the nice thing to do, or the ethical thing to do. I mean, probably taking all of your profit and donating that to nonprofits would be the nice thing to do. But you're not doing that, right? Because you're accountable to the shareholders. So now that we've established that, like, what's the list of priorities?" and I think sometimes it can feel uncomfortable for people to relate this to the bottom line, because it is tied in to ethics and morality in some ways, and doing the right thing as human beings. But we don't set ourselves up for success if we don't acknowledge, like, what some of those business drivers are, that we need to also meet those needs.
Dr. Steve Yacovelli 17:32
Well, and if you reflect on how some of the biggest changes have happened in this country alone, it went down the money, you know, when when all the, while there's continual attacks on our community through state legislators and all that stuff but some of those past ones, it took, you know, the Disneys of the world to be like, "you know, what, I think we might want to pull our funding and go elsewhere," and people were like, "Oh, wait a minute, you're taking your money?" And so that pink dollar for lack of better term is super loud. And groups like an Out and Equal, groups like the National Gay Lesbian Chamber, know this and push it in, which I love. And I'm actually affiliated with both those I get no kickback. This is not a commercial, but their their strategy is through the purse strings of a workplace. And I'm like, "You know what, that's not a bad place to go."
Erica D'Eramo 18:20
Yeah, 100% I, and I think that there are risks to be mitigated when we take that lens. And I know, like HRC has faced some criticism, too around sort of targeting the high wealth communities, maybe and now maybe as we look back, it's like, well, trans people, trans people of color, in particular, needed to be brought along there. And so yeah, so as we like, understand what those levers are, I think we can use them more effectively, and try to mitigate the risks that come with it.
Dr. Steve Yacovelli 18:53
And I think as a white, gay cisgendered dude, I see where I sit in that opportunity. And I try to amplify those voices, you know, and I never would call myself like a trans ally. I try to be but I wouldn't label myself as such, but, but I think that's the opportunity and when you have groups that, they're now seeing that, thank goodness. But I think it's been way long, long, long, long, long overdue for for a lot of the the queer advocacy groups to finally get better at including a lot of others besides the white cisgendered gay dudes.
Erica D'Eramo 19:30
Right. Yeah, that intersectionality piece is... I think, realizing that the in that Rubik's Cube, right, you can't just solve for one side of the equation. You have to be doing it integrated the whole time, because we end up in a situation where we are now, right where we've really reversed in some ways in many states as far as the protections that some groups have. So it's great that we have gay marriage at a federal level. Trans kids are, you know at risk of you being taken from their families in Texas at the same time. So, yeah,
Dr. Steve Yacovelli 20:03
Yeah.
Erica D'Eramo 20:05
So, okay, so what do you think, focusing on the positive, then, what do you think organizations can and should be doing to tackle some of those challenges that we talked about?
Dr. Steve Yacovelli 20:16
One of the things that I'm excited about with the work that we do at TopDog is, is I focus our energy, and I say, it's "we" so it's myself, I do have a team of awesome TopDoggers, consultants. But, you know, we really tried to focus on inclusive leadership. And so our main story is, is targeting the leader. And that can be the senior executive, the middle manager, or the shiny new out of the wrapper leader, and actually, in Pride Leadership, and all of our stuff, leadership is actually having influence. So as we say, here in this out, that's "all y'all," you know, so leader is everybody, but to really think through the strategies that we can package to be consciously inclusive leaders. And I think that's, that's what I get excited about and, and repackage it in the ways to think and speak up and act out. And so what that means is, thinking starts with the individual human, you know, where are your unconscious biases, what are some of the words and actions that you do, that maybe aren't as inclusive as they could be? And so we help folks start to unpack that, you know, be a little bit more mindful in understanding what they're saying and how they're acting on that individual level. So that's the thinking. The Speak Up is where we tell leaders, or help leaders see kind of the immediate circle around them. And so it's things like mitigating silent collusion, so you know, your people who are listening, who maybe are familiar with that term, true story, actually, Erica, it's kind of fun. I was in Atlanta, and it was myself and one of my TopDoggers, Laurie, and we were closing out a change management project we were doing, and as my, the two of us and then 48 other folks in the room from the client side, and it's basically like, "Yay, we did it, woohoo! We're awesome." And at the very, very head of the table is the senior executive who sponsored the project and, and you know, he's there and his gender is important the story, and we're just about to start the meeting and the voices are dying down. When you hear that senior executive say, stupidly loudly, "Well, you know, all women drive," and everyone just kind of stopped, kind of looked at the head of the table and was just like, but no one said a word, no one said one word. And I was about to actually say something. And Laurie kicked me on the table. She just said, "Wait," and I'm like, okay, so we sat there, it seemed for like, like 30 minutes. And obviously, it wasn't, but everyone just kind of looked at Bob, we'll say Bob's the executive, and, and so finally, this young gentleman who was kind of against the wall, wasn't even at the table was fairly new to the project, I think new to the company too just folded his arms and went, "daaaammmn" and just sent this massive signal. And it's, I love this story, because it's so darn true. Sent his massive signal that, "You know what? I'm not on board with that statement that was just said." And that's, that's how you beat silent collusion because at the moment where no one said anything, we were all tacitly agreeing. And so that's one of the things that that I think every leader should be mindful of: to not encourage or silently collude with those stupid disparaging statements being said. So in the work that we do we teach the Mop Sam method and actually we'll put a link to the show notes for free training we created on the Six Strategies to Beat Silent Collusion, so Mop Sam, is it's a cheeky little memory thing I created where I show an image of this Hungarian Puli mop, which if you've ever seen those dogs, they look like they've dreadlocks, they're beautiful.
Erica D'Eramo 23:43
Oh, yeah,
Dr. Steve Yacovelli 23:43
They call they call them mop dog. And then I said this is Sam and he's he's a Hungarian Puli him up or mop dog for short. So if you take his name and you take his breed Mop Sam, six strategies to remember in that moment when someone says a disparaging comments, what can you do? So like the A in MOPSAM, is you ask a question, and so what we what we could have done and actually what did eventually happen after the the gentleman went "damn" is where we, we, you ask the question like "Bob, what did you mean by that statement?" And you just, you know, you're just pointing it out, you know, go "BOB! What did you mean by that statement??!!" Because then Bob's all defensive, shield's up kind of thing. So, you know, it's like those ways that you can speak up to kind of refute some
Erica D'Eramo 24:20
Curiosity. Just want to put a plug in I'm like a big curiosity person, but yeah, yep, yep. Ask the questions. I love that.
Dr. Steve Yacovelli 24:28
And then the act out is is the bigger picture. So what can every leader do to say, "How are we being inclusive or exclusive in all the work that we do?" So I'm in HR, what do my forms look like? Do they, are they binary gender, or are they more inclusive with that are different policies on bereavement? Are we biased toward parents of human kids or do we factor in non human children? I do not have human kids in this life. I have had two canine children. They are my world. So do bereavements policies reflect that? You know all these bigger and smaller things that we can do, to make sure that everything that we do as a business is as inclusive as possible, kind of falls under that "act out" piece of it. So "think in, speak up, and act out."
Erica D'Eramo 25:16
I love that. And I just, I want to reflect on how much I wish that at the beginning of my leadership journey, I had access to those tools, because it just would have made such a difference in having like having to navigate that and figure it out. Especially in my previous career, I worked offshore. I remember working when I was working in Angola, where culturally and I think even legally, LGBTQ identities, community is very much repressed. And not only that, just like the oil industry, right? So I was only, only usually the only woman offshore, probably the only out queer person? And facing just a lot of that, sort of like toxic masculinity out there. And I did not have all of those tools at my disposal. So I think that they're, it's hard to tell sometimes where those leaders are sitting who can really leverage that. So I love that your training is free, because those people will not always be sitting within a Fortune 500 company, or if they are, they might be so embedded in the organization, that they don't have line of sight to ask for those kinds of training and resources.
Dr. Steve Yacovelli 26:37
I think you're, you know one of the other things that that I am very, very big on is, especially now in this quote, unquote, post COVID world, whatever that really means. You know, it's the way we look at how we do work is wicked different. And I can say that because you're in Boston, wicked different in a great, great way, though. One of my another coachee that I had this week. They're really frustrated. And they're like, I feel like I work for this massive Fortune 500 pharma company, but my man, my manufacturing site is so exclusive. She's like, I'm, I'm you know the, the lone lesbian, flying the flag, and I'm the, you know, the one put on the spot, and I have to do all the education, and she's like, it's exhausting. And I was like, you know, you can always pick up your toys and leave, unless you're an indentured servant to that particular job, which I hope you aren't, you know, we don't have to stay there. And that's, that's, of course, a very personal decision. But it's like, you know, you're not, if you're not feeling appreciated, and talk about you know, the risk of not being inclusive, as a workplace, you know, we know, we know who's inclusive, we know who's giving money to the politicians who are creating policy against our lives. And then rainbow washing all June saying look at how inclusive we are, we know, we're not dumb, we, we're a way connected community. So you know, if this person's individual is like, you know, I just am really frustrated. I said, "You have two choices, you can fight the fight, right, but it's exhausting. And especially if you are one of a few, and you have a couple allies, and that's it, or you know what, find a place to be appreciated elsewhere. And that's yes, easier said than done, but have grace on your own body, because the fight isn't just for you is for all of us. And sometimes you got to tap out, take a rest, and then come back in and when you're ready and energized to keep going."
Erica D'Eramo 28:31
That was the big theme at the conference I recently attended in Boston, the Massachusetts Conference for Women. Viola Davis was one of the speakers she she talked about this a lot, but pretty much all the keynotes, it came up that, especially I think, when you're younger and full of verve, and you don't necessarily see how much the the deck is stacked. It can be really tempting to put everything into changing an organization. But fundamentally, unless you are at the pay grade to change the organization. It's not your job to change it. So you can decide at what point like you're ready, but it's not giving up, right? You only have so many resources to invest and you want to invest them wisely for impact. And if you're investing them and you're not seeing any return on that investment in the terms that you want, then you take those investments and you move them elsewhere, just like you would with any money investment, you know?
Dr. Steve Yacovelli 29:29
Yeah, I, I would the only thing I would I would maybe slightly lightly push back on is that we all can be change agents, you know. And so yes, the biggest impacts are going to come from those that C suite that that you know, that's really the job, but something as small as you know what I'm going to put my pronouns in my email signature and to heck with corporate policy and CEO you can do those tiny little flags of change. There's little nuggets that can at least show you know, I think, sorry, I'm a Star Wars nerd. I think I like the Rebel Alliance, you know, their fight up against the Galactic Empire, but they still had those little pockets of "meh! I'm gonna do it." And I think we all can do that. But, but to your point, yes, if if you're doing these little bits of defiance or inclusiveness, and they're still falling on deaf ears, and it still feels icky then absosmartly, you need to find the place that that appreciates the value that you and your authentic self are, and stick with them. Because that's, that's where workplaces are starting to hit, be hit. When this this competitive market for employees, it's massive, and it's getting worse in a great way. It is so... if you're a high performer, you're like a rock star, and you can pick up your toys, and virtually go elsewhere. And that's where a lot of companies are starting to say, "Oh crap, we do have to invest in you in the case of the work we're doing into our LGBTQ-PLU employees, and make sure that we have a leadership program that speaks to them, and we do things that are less performative allyship and really doing the change, or else they're going to go and they're going to take their awesome intellect and their abilities and skills and go elsewhere."
Erica D'Eramo 31:09
Yeah, you're right. I mean, I don't want to let people off the hook for doing what they can, especially if they come from a place of privilege.
Dr. Steve Yacovelli 31:16
Yes.
Erica D'Eramo 31:16
And I think like that, that messaging was going to towards, in particular, like women, who are often burdened with like the like, we talked about that non-promotable work. And I think there is this piece around recognizing, like, when you are already in a marginalized community of whatever that looks like, how much leverage do you have? And how much exposure do you want to put yourself in? And, and I love that you say, like you can we say this, right, assuming that you have the means to move, but oftentimes, I feel like clients don't think that that's an option.
Dr. Steve Yacovelli 31:59
Yeah.
Erica D'Eramo 31:59
Until you really explore it. And at the end of the day, there are certainly going to be financial risks. Some people can't make that change. Some people have dependents, like they're it's not an option. But so many people have so much more optionality there than they realize, to move, especially in this market, especially with their skill set. Sometimes they need to be reminded. Yeah, and there's no no risk opportunity. There's no "no risk path," right? Like, staying where you're at is not "no risk." And leaving is not "no risk." They are just different risks. So...
Dr. Steve Yacovelli 32:33
Correct. Yeah. And then that's where I always say to my coachees, you know, "You have to make this decision, but you know, at least have a think about what all those options are and where you could go or not go."
Erica D'Eramo 32:46
Right. Yeah. 100%. So you kind of mentioned when we talked a little bit about like the bottom line, or the strategic imperative around some of this, but what would you say the costs are for organizations that aren't, aren't doing this, as well as they could be?
Dr. Steve Yacovelli 33:05
It's a really, really fantastic question. And I think it's a couple different ways that you can quantify it and not quantify it. So I think when you look at like, the hard numbers, you know, it's retention, you know, and depending on who you talk to, and how you calculate the numbers, you know, obviously, it's a hell of a lot less expensive to keep an employee happy than to get a brand shiny new one. And so, you know, retention is a big strategy for really any smart business. So it's that. It's recruiting best talent too, I mean, you, you look for better talent, which allows you to bring innovation to your workplace, new ideas, different perspectives, you know, get out of that homogeny of thoughts. So so that in of itself, can can really lead to some of those other costs. When you look at, of course the litigation stuff, there's all that things about not being inclusive, you can get data where it depending on where you're sitting, whether that be in the US, certain states, certain countries, but I also think too, and this is where you can't necessarily quantify it, but it's there. It's the PR effort. You know, if you are a business and you're being seen, like a Chick-fil-A and I will absolutely call them out. Oh, who is is they're not even being well, they kind of are doing performative allyship-ish, because they're a franchise own. Like I'm sitting here in Central Florida. And I know one of the Chick-fil-A and I don't know why they would do this, but one of the Chick-fil-A franchises is owned by a queer couple, a gay couple. And, you know, that always blows my mind and it's maybe that philosophy change from within-ish. That's fine. You do you boo. But, you know, I just I think that you know, when you have a company that's so defiant on embracing inclusivity especially as it relates to the LGBTQ-PLU community, you know, it's It's like, there's a cost to that. I will never ever, ever eat a Chick-fil-A sandwich, no matter how lovely and wonderful those pickles are. I just can't do it. And I think you are seeing more and more and more of that, that boycott that that PR that ding. And yes, for every one of us anti Chick-fil-A folks, I know some might lovely straight ally friends like "But their fries are so good." I don't care, there's waffle fries elsewhere, you know, but so I get that there's that but but that you can't, like wash that PR away, or anti PR away, because it's there. And that's a cost to a business down the road or immediately. And I think businesses really need to think long and hard about saying one thing about being inclusive, and then not being it. And then I'll finish on this note. It's not just us, all of us others, quote unquote, are watching. And so when a company isn't doing cool stuff, say, for the LGBT employee resource group, I hope to heck and I know they are, that our, the, our Black and Brown brothers and sisters and siblings in their ERG are watching. The women's group is also watching. The veterans group is also watching. And so it's not just our little silos of others, all of us others are starting to work together, have empathy, have support have allyship. And that's the gorgeous power that I think companies better be aware of.
Erica D'Eramo 36:22
Yeah, yep. I definitely agree. And I think you mentioned the rainbow washing. And I think that that... those are the, those are the areas that I am looking forward to more transparency around what is actually happening because the Chick-fil-A's, it's almost part of their brand now, right? Like they lean into it. Like that's, that's like a pride point, so to speak, but... But it's like the companies that you mentioned, show up at the pride parades with these massive floats. And then you look at where they're spending their lobbying dollars. And it's like, six figure donations to people who are trying to reverse marriage equality.
Dr. Steve Yacovelli 37:06
Yep. Yeah. I'm like I, I was on a LinkedIn conversation with somebody. And they were, it was more of a globally focused LGBT focus group. And someone was talking, they were talking, of course, about the World Cup. And I posted, I quickly grabbed and posted like from the FIFA website. Here's the official big ticket sponsors. I said, one: I can name four of those who are my clients. Two: I can name like most of those who were at the Out and Equal Conference in Vegas not that long ago. And three, they're supporting the government over there? I'm like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, this is not good.
Erica D'Eramo 37:42
By the way. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I mean, for anyone listening who doesn't know this, political contributions are public. And your company likely has, if you're working for a large company, you can either find it on the internets, or for most large companies, they have a record that is available to employees for where that funding goes. So if you're curious, that information is out there, I highly suggest you go find it and then ask during the town halls, if you have the privilege to do so. And you feel like you you can get away with that without, you know, punishment, or maybe with the punishment, you know, but ask those tough questions. Yeah,
Dr. Steve Yacovelli 38:23
That's a great idea. Great idea, Erica.
Erica D'Eramo 38:26
Um, so I really appreciate all the insights you've shared today. And we'll definitely link to some of the resources that you and your team have made available, which is wonderful. Are there any kind of closing thoughts or, you know, last tidbits that you want our listeners to take away with them today?
Dr. Steve Yacovelli 38:45
I think as as we look at how we collectively create a more inclusive workplace, for all of us, regardless of who's there, I think the two things that really boil down to success, in my opinion, are the concepts of feedback and empathy. And I don't see a lot of conversation happening on how does your workplace engage in providing you know, cooperative, effective, you know, constructive feedback? And what what model are you using? How are you teaching that? And then that kind of falls into the same concept of empathy and empathetic leadership, and, and how empathetic is your leadership team? Are you as a leader? Are you sharing that feedback? Because you're like, I'm gonna tell you how you did bad? Or is it, "Hey, I want to give you the gift of feedback," as we used to say Disney and you know, say, "Here's something to make you a better human, a better employee, a better performer. And let me give you that gift." And I think those two concepts are really at the foundation for creating any sort of inclusive workplace and really have a think about what your your workplace is in regard to feedback and empathy and then maybe make some changes if it's not where it needs to be.
Erica D'Eramo 39:55
Yeah, yep, that's a great final note to end on. So, wishing you all the best in your endeavors in your changemaking and trailblazing as we, as we say, and bringing that leadership to the people who are in a position to kind of make their own change and thrive as the current leaders they are. And again, I just wish I had encountered you earlier in my career because that support and for all of our listeners, you can find links to those resources in the show notes, and we will also be tagging Steve and his team in our social media posts, and you can find those on Twitter, LinkedIn, Instagram, Facebook, you know the drill, and we look forward to catching you on the next episode.