We're back for the second half of our two-part episode about Pride. Two Piers Advisory Board members Gene Valentin and Jason Gray rejoin us to discuss Pride in terms of intersectionality, identity, labels, and “cancel culture.” We also touch on some recent developments that have occurred in between recording part-one and part-two.
This is a two-part episode as part of our Pride Series this month. If you didn’t catch part-one, you can find it here.
Transcript in below:
Erica D'Eramo 0:07
Hello, and welcome to the Two Piers podcast. I'm your host, Erica D'Eramo. And this is season four. And we are back with part two of our internal Two Piers podcast episode around Pride. Returning to the podcast are Gene and Jason. And we're going to pick up our conversation where we left off last time, but maybe go a little deeper this time and talk about some some topics that don't get brought up too much in the workplace. So intersectionality people may be familiar with and certainly cancel culture. But we'll be picking apart those those topics a little bit and exploring what that means.
So thank you so much for joining Gene, Jason. Great to have you back.
Gene Valentin 0:59
Hello, friend. Hello.
Jason Gray 1:01
Thanks for having us.
Erica D'Eramo 1:02
Yeah, I feel like we probably need to start out by recognizing that last time when we recorded, we sort of predicted a few things that went down in the media. And we recorded that several weeks ago, actually. So we recorded that podcast in May, because we were on top of things. And and now it is the beginning of June. And at the time, we called out what could go wrong with corporate sponsorship and corporate allyship. And there have been some examples in the media lately.
Gene Valentin 1:43
Yeah, that intuition be be crazy. Just a little bit. Yeah.
Erica D'Eramo 1:49
Kind of called it.
Jason Gray 1:51
We had a crystal ball and in yeah, some some unfavorable news, relative to, to some of our friends in red.
Erica D'Eramo 2:01
Yeah. And I was thinking about, like, what made that situation go south so quickly? And I really think that it was that performative nature, right? It was, like all, everything became so clear when products got pulled from the market and, and, and different entities. There's been a whole bunch of examples, right? It's not just one or two companies, there have been a bunch of examples, teams, in sports, all the stuff and and people who were showing support pulled that support because of a vocal minority who was really adamant about it, and then it's like, worse than if they hadn't just stayed silent in the first place. Right?
Gene Valentin 2:47
Yeah. It's almost like, just just tell me the truth. I would have been more like, actually, no, I think had Target just kind of been like, "Yo, you know, we're not, we're not really wit it," like, I would have been like, "Okay, thanks. I know where you stand. Like, I get it." And it would have been an easier pill to kind of like swallow, I guess, is like what I'm trying to say. But now it's like, you, you said you, you were you were with us? You took it back?
Erica D'Eramo 3:19
Right
Gene Valentin 3:20
Now I feel...
Erica D'Eramo 3:21
...worse.
Gene Valentin 3:21
Yeah.
Erica D'Eramo 3:22
Yeah, worse and, and I think like the sports team, too, that was, you know, had this like long legacy of Pride events. And then they decided to cancel the events. And then there was a ton of backlash. It's like, well, if the only purpose here was to perform in a way that got you kudos, and points, and then you did it, and you were like, "oh, shoot, now other people are upset," and then you change course, immediately, if nothing is like tied to your fundamental values, if you're not willing to weather the storm. Like it's probably better to just not play in this sandbox. At all.
Gene Valentin 3:59
Yeah. 100%
Jason Gray 4:00
Yeah, I agree. I mean, I think that, you know, again, you know, when you when you look at, you know, the whole Pride culture and the whole, you know, I hate to use, like the commercialization of it, but I mean, that's kind of where our conversation last time was going was like the commercialization versus the, you know, the ideology of the entire movement. And so I think that where we were, you know, saying that we would really like for these organizations to go is to a place of like, actual allyship and actual like, we have you we are part of you, we are you, you, you are represented in us, we are represented in you. And unfortunately what we saw was, "Oh, hey, there are a couple of people who are a little bit bent out of shape about something that we've done, we're not going to do it now." You know, and I you know, at first and I you know, I I hesitated because, you know, having been somebody who worked at Target, I know, like how important like safety and security is to Target and to other employees and like I've been in like, front facing industries for for, like, you know, over 20 years, I get it, how sometimes it can be a really dangerous situation how things can sometimes really escalate and get out of control. However, the reality of the situation is, is that that wasn't really the case. And, you know, I mean, even like, you know, in taking, you know, taking the Pride section and moving it from the front of the stores, where you had predominantly, you know, in, you know, wholeheartedly merchandised, and saying, hey, you know, what, we're gonna put this in the back of the store now, like, what message are you sending? And especially like, what message are you sending young kids? And what messages are you sending to truly marginalized people who are like walking into Target thinking, like, "wow, this company's got me," and then all of a sudden, it's like, "wow, this company doesn't have me." And I think that that's where, you know, I think the, the conversation, and I know, you know how a lot of these organizations work, I would assume that there are people within the LA Dodgers, there are people within Target, there are people within American Airlines, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, who are having probably very uncomfortable conversations with themselves right now. However, it's 2023. Like, we need to be doing better by now. Like we, I mean, this, this movement isn't new, you know, like, you know, we got to get it together.
Erica D'Eramo 6:25
I mean, not challenging the narrative either. And like, and correcting some of the like blatant lies that were told around it, that just backing right down. And, frankly, if you just move the Pride section to the back of the store, who's happy now? Literally no one, because it's not the people who were protesting in the first place and like, taking stuff from like, the adult swimwear section and moving it to the kids section, and like filming it and all that, those people still aren't happy because you still have rainbows all over the back of your store,
Jason Gray 6:58
Right
Erica D'Eramo 6:58
And now that the queer folks aren't happy either, because you just relegated us to literally the back of the store. So I think that's like, yeah, that was unfortunate.
Gene Valentin 7:09
Yeah, it's only like, I don't know. It's, I think what also... eh, none of this surprised me.
Erica D'Eramo 7:18
Right.
Gene Valentin 7:18
And I think I happen and I think it also, and I don't want to like... I think really like what this also kind of brings up for me too, is the fact that like, even if like they're... that action, they're moving that entire section to the back of the store, it's still very reminiscent of like, so you'd rather be silent, rather be silent, and you'd rather watch while all of these terrible, like anti trans, like bills are being signed into law, like you'd rather just sit and watch and be silent, which is like, truthfully, worse.
Erica D'Eramo 7:53
Right? Again, if it's only underpinned by the financial gain that you stand to make, then, yeah, it's not surprising to me that they did a calculation that said, we'll probably fare better by doing this, in which case, it's... it... this is where I come back to with like, how I feel about Pride is so complex, because it is almost more damning, this whole thing has almost been more damaging and brought like a lot of voices out, that now feel empowered to spew like, hatred, in comment sections, and like, just emboldened in a way that I haven't seen in 20 years. And I think even 20 years ago, we didn't have like Instagram and TikTok comments and all that. So it's been, it's been like, pretty rough. I think, for me personally, like on an emotional level, this year has been pretty rough. I mean, it's been rough. It's been rough for a while, but
Jason Gray 8:55
It just seems more like it's like, it's almost like you can't escape the negativity when it comes to the surface. Like, no matter where you look, whether you're looking on TikTok, or Instagram or Facebook, whatever, you know, whatever social platform you're on, it's like right there, you know, like, whether it's a push notification, or if it's in somebody else's, you know, share, or it's, it's, you know, it's almost like you can't escape the, you know, the, just "in your face" aspect of it, versus previously, you know, 5-10 years ago, even sure, you may have seen it on Facebook, but that's really the only place you're gonna see something like that, because otherwise, we weren't really on platforms like we are now. And we weren't consuming social media at quite the, the you know, the pace and the the depth and quantity that we are now and so I agree. I mean, it's just been like you're everywhere you turn it's like, "oh, gosh, here's another story. Oh, here's another hateful comment." You know, oh, hey, here's another creator who's sharing the some of the you know, the ridiculous comments that they've been receiving and the negativity that's been blasted in their face. And, and so much of it is just so like, it's just just petty and hurtful. And I think, you know, people don't realize that the depth of the damage that can be done by some of those comments, you know, they just see it as like, "Oh, I'm gonna call this person out." And it's like, no, like, you're not just calling that person out, you're calling every person who's a fan of that person. And you're like, it's just this, it's just really in your face, it's, it's very jarring.
Erica D'Eramo 10:30
Which makes me feel like okay, marketing manager in whatever organization, you got to make a different decision because you felt a little heat. And then you can kind of hide behind whatever, maybe you have a LinkedIn profile, but you know, no one's probably directly interacting with you. But that amount of heat that you felt in the moment imagine like living that because that is who you are, as a human being navigating this world, like you can't just escape. So that little bit of heat that you felt that was towards an action that you took, right that that's different than like, that being directed towards your identity as a human being like, the fabric of your makeup, that hatred was directed towards, like, an action versus your core of who you are, you know, your value.
Gene Valentin 11:16
Yeah, yeah. And I think too, like there's, it's so it's, it's already like so disheartening, like, I am very privileged in my like, access to like, my health care that I need, like, because I'm trans, like, I luckily worked for an amazing like, nonprofit where that stuff was so accessible to me. That's not the case for so many like other like Black and brown trans kids and queer kids like, and disabled queer kids, like all of these things aren't like, community is not accessible, especially in these like really small towns. So of course, walking into places like these big courts and seeing a rainbow seeing people who are wearing clothes, like designed by people who look like you and have the same life experience like to then look at your phone and see, by the way, this state just passed another 26,000 different bills of like, why you shouldn't be here? Yeah, it's awful. It's a terrible feeling. And it's like, I think too, like so yeah, like this, this whole thing of them putting their their entire section in the back of the store, like, you know, we can look at it and kind of be like, "Yeah, well, you know, at least they didn't get rid of it completely." But it's like, y'all put it in the back of the store. You might as well just get rid of it. Because you already said what you needed to say.
Erica D'Eramo 12:32
Yeah, well, at that point, it's not getting any... I'm sure you know, in there, in some towns, that is the only place that you can get a Pride flag probably.
Jason Gray 12:42
Oh, I'm sure. Yeah.
Erica D'Eramo 12:43
But so like, I guess I'm still glad that that exists as a place you can go but I mean, there's there are online ordering. In fact, there's there are creators right now that will send free Pride flags. So yeah, anyone listening, if you need a Pride flag, there's plenty of accounts that will provide free Pride flags right now.
Gene Valentin 13:04
Yeah, there's like also websites, especially if you're like a local business, will, they will like promote you for like, going to them like asking for, like, whatever flags you need. And like they'll like also uplift your store as a safe space.
Erica D'Eramo 13:18
Oh, cool. That's great to know.
Gene Valentin 13:20
Yeah. That is the good side of TikTok is access to this information.
Erica D'Eramo 13:27
I have to be so careful about my social media interaction, just because I am finding that it's like taking such a toll on my mental health, to engage and just even the responses from creators that I like, when they're like, this is what I, this is what I received. And this is what my response is, but I want to be aware of it to some extent, but I also need to guard my energy so that I can focus it on productive measures, and like, making an impact and not just like, weathering the storm.
Gene Valentin 13:56
I miss flip phones, a lot.
Erica D'Eramo 13:57
Flip phones?
Gene Valentin 13:58
Yeah. Like, I just feel like when I was like 16 and I had a flip phone, I was not this this worried all the time.
Erica D'Eramo 14:07
Yeah.
Gene Valentin 14:07
You know? I could dramatically slam my phone. And end a conversation.
Erica D'Eramo 14:12
I would very, very much miss my like cooking apps.
Gene Valentin 14:18
The downsides.
Erica D'Eramo 14:22
So okay, so we needed to address that, right? Because it was like, whoever listened to our previous episode is going to hear that not knowing the timeline of when that occured. So it did occur before all this stuff happened. But this time, we want to talk about some, let's talk about some intersectionality. So we should maybe define that.
Gene Valentin 14:45
Yeah.
Erica D'Eramo 14:45
Yeah. Kimberlé Crenshaw, originally came up with that term. You want to define it for us?
Gene Valentin 14:51
I'm going to do a terrible job.
Erica D'Eramo 14:52
In your own words...
Gene Valentin 14:53
Yeah. So I...
Erica D'Eramo 14:55
Maybe how it shows up for you?
Gene Valentin 14:57
I think really, I define intersectionality... Well, I want to credit my very liberal arts college for even teaching me this. I...
Erica D'Eramo 15:07
Oh, wow, you learned it in school
Gene Valentin 15:08
I spent a lot of time in that school just really just not being present. But I was present for that part. And that was the most important thing that I left with. I feel like I define it, I define it as a quote by and I'm hoping I'm saying her name, right. Ijeoma?
Erica D'Eramo 15:08
Ijeoma Oluo?
Gene Valentin 15:10
Yes.
Erica D'Eramo 15:31
Yeah.
Gene Valentin 15:31
So I...
Erica D'Eramo 15:32
She's amazing.
Gene Valentin 15:33
She's incredible. In her book, "So You Want to Talk About Race?" she touches a little bit on intersectionality. And it's, it's a, it's placed in in the dialogue. And she mentions, in this quote, I cannot cut myself into pieces.
Erica D'Eramo 15:50
Right.
Gene Valentin 15:51
And that is how that's really the only way that I could define intersectionality is that we are composed of pieces, right? You know, I am Puerto Rican, and Mexican, and I am queer. I'm trans. These are all pieces that make up one whole, like, so that is, I feel like that's how I could describe that or at least my way.
Erica D'Eramo 16:12
Yeah. I think like the the term originally showed up in the legal discourse. And I, Kimberlé Crenshaw, coined it to describe this specific, a specific case around a company that had a discrimination lawsuit, and it was like, they proved that they didn't discriminate against women, they proved, you know, big scare quotes on this, proved that they didn't discriminate against Black people. But they were able to prove that by, like, pointing out the white women and saying, "Look, we don't... we've got plenty of women, a proportionate number of women. Look, we've got plenty of Black people." They were Black men, right? But it was specifically Black women who were being discriminated against in a way that was a combination, like layered in a way that couldn't be split apart. Right?
Gene Valentin 17:09
Yup.
Erica D'Eramo 17:09
And so then that kind of ties into the whole mysosgynoir and, and that concept, specifically, and so how it shows up today is like you said, you're, you're trans, this is totally your experience of trans and this is going to be totally different from like, a white person experience of being trans.
Gene Valentin 17:28
Absolutely.
Erica D'Eramo 17:29
Right? And, yeah, and so, all that. How about you, Jason? How does it show up for you?
Jason Gray 17:34
Yeah, I mean, for me, you know, it's certainly like, I think of it, you know, as almost like the, the old concept of like, a melting pot, but like an internal melting pot, you know, and so, like, for me, like, it's like the summation of like, everything that like, is me, you know, and so like, for me, like, you know, obviously, like, you know, I mean, you know, for those of you who are you are able to see me, I mean, you know, I'm a white male, you know, I'm gay, I live in the country, so I'm, like, you know, kind of, like, I've got, like this farmer thing going on, you know, I've got four degrees. So like, I'm well-educated, you know, so like, I've got all this stuff that isn't necessarily like, you know, isn't like a protected class, or like a class of, you know, so to speak. However, it is all like, who I am. And like, it's, it's all of those pieces that have not only shaped my lived experiences, but has, you know, has also just become who I am. And so when I think of, you know, intersectionality it's like, how can I take all of those pieces, and I blend them together? And that's who I am. And, you know, and again, you know, kind of to Gene's point, you know, you can't necessarily separate all of those out because, like, there's so many pieces there that have shaped the other piece, you know, specifically the ones that I had, you know, personal impact on, you know, obviously, you know, I'm born into certain ah, certain, you know, aspects that I can't change, but I think, you know, just really looking at it from a standpoint of like, "Hey, all of these pieces blended together, is who I am and that intersectionality is the product of me."
Erica D'Eramo 19:10
Yeah, yeah, I love the melting pot version because I always kind of think of it as like cake batter like you can't
Gene Valentin 19:16
Yeah.
Jason Gray 19:16
For sure.
Gene Valentin 19:18
Yeah.
Erica D'Eramo 19:18
You can't take the eggs out. You can't take, you know like, it is what it's a totally different product.
Gene Valentin 19:23
Yeah, I'd argue I see it as like funfetti cake batter. Little sprinkles in there. Like there's so many they're all different. It's all going in the same cake.
Erica D'Eramo 19:36
Yeah. Um, just thinking about melting pot though. I really want some fondue at some point. Fondue's had a moment. I think It had like a resurgence in the aughts.
Jason Gray 19:37
I actually have a fondue pot that somebody got me when I moved back here that I haven't even plugged in, like I've never even like it's literally brand new in the box. I need to get it out. That's a good idea. I should do that.
Erica D'Eramo 20:03
Good Pride event actually. We should make that happen.
Gene Valentin 20:08
I would love that.
Erica D'Eramo 20:11
So intersectionally with Pride. So what are our thoughts on that?
Gene Valentin 20:15
I think let us just first acknowledge the fact that like, Pride queerness, the height of that: Marsha P. Johnson.
Erica D'Eramo 20:27
Oh, yeah,
Gene Valentin 20:28
Silvia Rivera. None of this would be here without a Black trans woman and a Latin trans woman. And that is what I will say.
Erica D'Eramo 20:37
Yeah, Wait. But they weren't in the movie!
Gene Valentin 20:40
They... what? Oh my god. *laughter*
Erica D'Eramo 20:42
Didn't they cast just like, not straight, I think it might have been a gay man, but like a white dude protagonist,
Gene Valentin 20:53
They always do that, because why actually look for the person who would actually fit that entire lived experience and personality.
Jason Gray 21:01
Right. Right. Right.
Erica D'Eramo 21:03
Yeah. I mean, one of the things that I think the gay rights movement has been criticized for, while Stonewall was led by like, Black and brown trans women and, and trans men too...
Gene Valentin 21:20
Yes. Yep, 100%
Erica D'Eramo 21:22
...At that pivotal event, a lot of advocacy in the gay community, like some of the biggest organizations that have collected the most money have really sort of focused on cis white men and cis white male dollars,
Gene Valentin 21:41
I would even, I would even argue also cis white, like, lesbians, I would also even argue that they have, they also share a little bit of that pedestal as well.
Erica D'Eramo 21:42
Oh, yeah.
Gene Valentin 21:53
I wouldn't say I wouldn't say back in the day, but now more so.
Erica D'Eramo 21:57
Oh, yeah. I mean, a lot of I mean, a lot of the, unfortunately, a lot of the like, TERF movement has been around white lesbian communities. Yeah. There's one or, I won't name them. They have three letters. And some blue and yellow in the logo...
Gene Valentin 22:20
Yep!
Erica D'Eramo 22:20
And I know, I was like, really supportive in my baby queer days of them. And I would always get the sticker and put it on my car.
Gene Valentin 22:30
We all did. We all had the sticker.
Erica D'Eramo 22:33
But then when I started to see like, who made up the ranks and where the money went... I mean, here's the thing, when you're driven by the money kind of makes sense in some regards, because if we look at the pay gap...
Jason Gray 22:50
Yep.
Erica D'Eramo 22:51
Think about who is affected. What families are affected the most by the pay gap, right? If we look, yeah, so you'll have some consolidation of wealth. And a lot of folks who like, until recent advancements weren't necessarily having kids, double income, you know, like, achieving higher financial success because of a lot of the privilege that they gained through their skin color and their gender.
Gene Valentin 23:17
Yep.
Erica D'Eramo 23:19
So I can see strategically, but it just feels like that legacy is still kind of being undone now. And having to like, bring some of the voices, I think they've made a lot of headway. I think a lot of these organizations have made a lot of headway, but there's still a lot of room. There's still a way to go.
Gene Valentin 23:36
Yeah, there's still work. And that's also the point of this is that there's always work like that's, yeah, you know, you know, we don't pick up a book and we're like, we're not racist anymore. Like, you know, that is I think there's so much power in acknowledging that, like, yes, so many of these organizations have come a long way. But that does not mean that they aren't done,
Erica D'Eramo 23:54
Right. Yeah, I don't want to be super critical of like, the decisions that had to be made at the time with probably limited resources, limited social goodwill and understanding, like, where we can make a difference. I think the fight for gay marriage was an important fight, I think though that by like, quote, unquote, picking our battles, we left trans folks in the dust, and now we're seeing it with the legislation.
Jason Gray 24:20
Right, right. Well, and not only just trans folks, but just, you know, people of color in general. And I think that, you know, what, what I've seen is that over the, you know, over the course of the past couple of years, specifically, is that as the conversations have continued to become more prevalent, and as the, you know, as the the conversations relative to, you know, to to, you know, other races, you know, specifically Black, brown, Indigenous people, you know, as those conversations have become more and more mainstream, I think that I've seen more of a shift towards like, hey, as the as the LGBTQIA plus community, we need to bring these folks along with us. Because it's not just like this one or two groups with money anymore. Now it's like, hey, even if you don't have money, you still matter. And I think for a long period of time, you know, there was this, you know, that this, I thought of like, "Well, if you if you don't have money to show up at the table, like you don't get a voice." And I think that that dialogue has changed dramatically over the past couple of years, where so many more people are being brought into the fold, there's still a lot of work to be done. You know, but I think that that, you know, and again, this just may be a skewed perception that I have on it. But it seems like as those conversations have continued to, you know, grow and develop external to just the, you know, the queer piece, that a lot of those conversations have had spillover, and that spillover has now been like, Oh, hey, these other people, like have really valid and valuable lived experiences, and really valid and valuable opinions, that they can help us to move this cause now, even more rapidly than we had to be able to just say, you know, hey, we're all in this together versus like, well, this group is going to do this, and this group is going to do that. Because I think we've all learned that as you silo yourself, it's more difficult to, you know, to cover ground, you know, to do it together and collectively, is certainly a lot more productive than not.
Erica D'Eramo 26:29
Yeah, or I would almost say sustainable, because you might get those quick wins by just like, right, when we look at like, voting, right? When, when the when the white women were like fighting for the right to vote, and they were like, yeah, "Hey, sorry, Black women. Yeah, you gotta just, we can't take you on this trip, because we just got to lock in the right to vote, and then we'll come get you."
Gene Valentin 26:51
Right.
Erica D'Eramo 26:51
"We'll come and get you later." And like, it doesn't, it doesn't work like that, like, you might get that quick win. But you're undermining the entire effort by doing that, because just like this with the instability of trans rights right now, I feel like it's a slippery slope backwards, where you lose bodily autonomy for a certain group of people. And now you have precedence to be able to take bodily autonomy from more people.
Gene Valentin 26:51
Yeah.
Jason Gray 26:51
Right. For sure.
Gene Valentin 26:55
I mean, 100%. And I think too, like, I am gonna speak to that. But also, I just want to go back to like what we were just talking about too briefly like, I think, especially with like the, like, when we're talking about, like, you know, women fighting for the right to vote like, and we also saw too like with, like, the last few elections of like, white women utilizing their privilege, not in the ways that would be actually the most helpful. But then looking at these marginalized communities, especially being like, "Well, this is your fault. So now you have to fix it." Because now, of course, some of these bills that are being signed into law do now affect them. Like, y'all want to stop giving trans kids the rights to bodily autonomy for their bodies. Who's to say that soon, you know, some 25 year old girl in Beverly Hills can't get her boobs done.
Erica D'Eramo 28:12
Right.
Gene Valentin 28:13
It's a very slippery slope.
Erica D'Eramo 28:14
Also known as gender affirming care.
Gene Valentin 28:16
Oh, my gosh, that's so wild.
Jason Gray 28:18
Right. Right.
Erica D'Eramo 28:19
Yeah.
Gene Valentin 28:20
Yeah.
Jason Gray 28:20
I think that that's a good point. And where I think people, you know, and even like, with these bills, you know, like, specifically like that, you know, some of the bills that have been put forward and like Tennessee with like, the, you know, the references to like, provocative clothing, and then people were like, "But hey, what about cheerleaders? And like, what about like gymnasts? Like, I mean, their clothing is like, pretty revealing." And then they're like, "Oh, wait, we didn't think about that," you know. And so it's like, one of those things where it's like, the more you try to oppress, and the more you try to, you know, further marginalize marginalized communities, I think it's like, it just becomes more and more, you know, just pure hypocrisy and where you're looking at it from like, you know, even like, you know, just the whole construct of, you know, when you look at, like, some of the challenges that have come across through, you know, through cases of rape and incest and, you know, all all of these pieces of, you know, child predation, et cetera. And then you'd like, follow the chain back and it's like, "Wait, these are the people who are yelling the loudest about like, how we can't have any of this stuff." And then it's like, "Wait, where's this coming from? And where are we going?" It's just it's just, you know, it just it's super frustrating to watch because you know, you're watching these people who were screaming the loudest from the top, and you're like, Wait, what are you yelling about? You? what Who are you yelling at? You know, yeah, absolutely.
Erica D'Eramo 29:45
There's no consistency in the argument. Because that... because, well and for better or worse, I feel like people are getting more comfortable saying the quiet part out loud. And that quiet part is like "trans people should not exist. Women should not have bodily autonomy. And, you know, like straight cis men should get to decide these things." Those are the things that aren't going into the legislation outright. But fundamentally, if you're, if you were going to be consistent in your viewpoints, you would look at like, where are our kids getting harmed the most? And then we would do something about that.
Gene Valentin 29:45
Yeah.
Erica D'Eramo 29:50
...we would actually like, but I don't think that's of interest to the people making these arguments, actually, they, right otherwise, because it's so it's so blatant. No one's even trying to fool anybody.
Jason Gray 30:32
They're looking for, they're looking for quick wins, and they're looking for quick, they're looking for the quickest way to damage the most amount of folks, which is like, really, really damning, and like really just frightening, I mean, to watch. I mean, you know, it's like, "how can we, how can we, how can we negatively impact the most amount of people in the shortest amount of time?" is what some of this feels like?
Gene Valentin 30:54
Yeah, yep. Exactly.
Erica D'Eramo 30:56
When I'm... Right. Fundamentally, though, they, I feel like the argument is that these human beings shouldn't exist, right? Like, that's when it's the only argument that exists, like exists, when you peel away all the inconsistencies and discrepancies because like, the the drag stuff that made it through in various states now, those are written such that a trans person, because because if you don't believe that trans people exist, as as a human, then a trans person wearing what they wear every single day walking down the street, can be accused of wearing drag. They happen to walk within a block of a school.
Gene Valentin 31:44
Yep.
Erica D'Eramo 31:44
...in quote, unquote, drag. They're breaking the law.
Gene Valentin 31:47
Yeah.
Erica D'Eramo 31:47
Right? So like, their fundamental existence as a human is what is being undermined.
Gene Valentin 31:52
Exactly, exactly. And it's like, that's all... this is, this is all. I think what is especially frustrating is that this is all stuff that every non-white queer person, you know, disabled queer people, like neurodivergent folks like this is all stuff that like, we talk about, have been talking about, have been literally screaming.
Erica D'Eramo 32:19
I know.
Gene Valentin 32:19
And it's like now because it's starting to also and I, this is also a very prevalent thing here, because we need to acknowledge that white trans folks get the most airtime of, they get Elliott Paige just got a book. Like, buddy, good for you. But like, there's also a lot of other like black and brown trans people who are also famous, who didn't get that opportunity right off the bat. Like there. There is a privilege in that as well. So it's like, yeah, me and my people have been saying all of this. But it now it's starting to affect a larger demographic of people, which is white people, and it's affecting white trans people. And all of that is so hard. It's so often disheartening. But it's also extremely frustrating on this end to also see this play out.
Erica D'Eramo 33:07
Yeah. So what's the answer?
Gene Valentin 33:11
I think the answer is like, acknowledging that these are multiple elephants in the room. But you have to acknowledge the elephants in the room so that way we can actually have like, productive conversations on how to move forward for everyone to feel seen and witnessed and validated and like given the chance to exist.
Erica D'Eramo 33:30
Yeah. Given the chance to exist.
Gene Valentin 33:32
Exactly. And it's like, it's not about like, your struggle is worse than mine. Like because we all know that that's, that doesn't do anything that doesn't, that doesn't actually cause any progress. It's about acknowledging these things, and being like, "Okay, so now, this is your role in this. So how are you going to uplift me? So we can both come out winning at the end of this?"
Erica D'Eramo 33:51
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it takes a lot of like checking your discomfort, your defensiveness, like, all that kind of stuff. Right? When it's like, I don't have privilege. I got to where I am, because I fought hard for it. And I deserved all of this. Like, whoa, if that's your first reason? Yeah. Like just listen.
Gene Valentin 34:10
Right.
Jason Gray 34:11
Right.
Erica D'Eramo 34:11
Bring curiosity.
Gene Valentin 34:12
Exactly. Exactly. Bring curiosity. I love that that's like the exact sentence of this is bring your curiosity. Like let's sit and have these conversations.
Jason Gray 34:20
Yeah, right. Well, and I think that just this, like, this entire conversation, just in and of itself, is a prime example of how we can move some of this dialogue forward. And what I mean by that is, you know, as I had shared in the last episode, you know, we all have very different lived experiences, every single one of us and even even every, you know, even my brothers and I and everybody who lives in the same town, we all have different lived experiences every single person, but where I think that the key there is again, you know, when I think of this conversation, like when Gene speaking, like we're both listening, and we're listening, we're listening. We're processing we're trying to understand, because Gene's experiences are very different than ours. But your opinion still matters to me and what you've gone through and how you can show up at the table and say, "Hey, this is who I am, this is what I've done, here are my thoughts." And it's also not saying that, that, that I can necessarily understand all of them. Because there are a lot of things that you've experienced, that I will never be able to understand, because I didn't experience them. But what I can do is I can listen to them, and I can sympathize. And I can empathize. And I can come from a place of understanding to be like, "Oh, wow, how can I help you? And how can I help to elevate you?" which is, I think, again, something that we talked about last time, and being able to, you know, to amplify and be be a true ally, and say, "Hey, you know, what, I've got your back when this, you know, when this next situation happens, or when this next, you know, event comes up, or when somebody tries to, you know, shut you down," or, you know, so I think that it's just, you know, very powerful to have conversations like this, where each one of us can show up, and we can listen and we can engage and we can interact, and we can bring our own, you know, true selves to the to the table, and not have somebody continually trying to like, you know, shut us down. And so yeah, I think it's just, you know, it's very validating to to have the conversation, I think,
Erica D'Eramo 36:19
Yeah. And you're not like, "whoa, I'm not one of the bad white guys," right? It's like,
Gene Valentin 36:24
Sure.
Erica D'Eramo 36:25
"Okay, fine, whatever." Like, yeah, whenever that conversation goes right there, it's like, "Okay, you need me to soothe you right now?" Okay, we're gonna get real far, real fast.
Jason Gray 36:38
And, yeah, but you know, and I guess on the flip side, you know, not to say that, like, you know, I mean, I think that there are times too where, you know, and coming from a place of understanding, I think there's some times to where, even though we may not want to actually sit there and like, allow somebody to, like, tell us their truth, because you're like, "Okay, I've heard this version of this story, like, 25 times," but sometimes it's like, "Okay, I'm gonna listen to you, and I'm gonna let you share. And then I'm going to give you have a different perspective." And I think that, you know, the danger in that is that a lot of times, you know, when those conversations happen, it's like, Okay, I've heard this 100 times before, and I know, I'm not going to change your opinion, but I'm going to listen to you because I want to respect you, and I'm going to listen to you. And then I'm going to be like, Hey, so, you know, you've shared now your experience, as you know, as you know, as a, you know, X year old, you know, white male, and this has been your experience, but let me tell you about my experience. And I think that, you know, sometimes, you know, having that dialogue and continuing it. But again, I think it's about valuing and hearing, but then also trying to be like, okay, but like, can you can now I've learned and listen to your perspective. Can you hear mine? Like, will you will you? Will you listen to my perspective? And can you understand now why I need your help to like, move this forward? Because what's happening currently, it's just really not working for all of us. And like, we're all humans, like, we're all existing here together, you know, on borrowed time, so to speak. So it's, you know, I don't know, I think just being able to have, you know, those honest conversations that are uncomfortable a lot of times to where, you know, you walk away from, you're like, oh, wow, that was like, a little bit more intense than I was bargaining for. But I think sometimes those are what makes it good.
Erica D'Eramo 38:22
Yeah, I think it's uncomfortable because it touches what people value, like, when it touches identity, you know, like how you see yourself as a human being. And if you see yourself as somebody who has earned their achievements and, and deserves everything they have, and who is a good person who's never taken advantage of anybody, if you hear that you have privilege, and that you may have benefited disproportionately to other people. And some of the some of what you received, maybe was on earned like something that touches to some deep seated fears that people have where it's like, oh, Well, shame and loss of agency, because then it's like, "Well, if I didn't create this, then somebody else can take it away," or like, yeah, or to even say, like, you didn't deserve this, like, frankly, I don't know that I deserve a fraction of the success I've had, right?
Gene Valentin 39:17
Don't you ever say that in front of me.
Erica D'Eramo 39:18
Well, let me just say that I have lucked out in a lot of ways. I mean, I lucked out...
Gene Valentin 39:23
I mean, so have I.
Erica D'Eramo 39:25
...on the like, lottery.
Gene Valentin 39:26
I mean, so have I and like and I'm saying that as like yeah, like I am like brown and trans. But here's the thing like colorism plays in my favor in the state that we live in currently. Like I know I will always get more opportunities than someone who has darker skin than me and I hate that and that took me so long to sit with when I first moved here.
Erica D'Eramo 39:46
And so then what? Right? It's like Okay, guess what, it's... you don't need to like sit with that guilt because an
Exactly.
...because that's corrosive.
Gene Valentin 39:53
That's not gonna do any like, so I need to actively use that.
Erica D'Eramo 39:56
Yeah.
Gene Valentin 39:57
So we use it to uplift our voices.
Erica D'Eramo 39:58
Right? part of it too, is like to show people, when they feel that discomfort like where they can channel that energy and where they can elevate. Like, you don't need to speak on behalf of us! Just amplify our voices.
Gene Valentin 40:11
Yeah, and tell everybody to shut up so that way someone else can speak.
Jason Gray 40:16
Yeah, I think you're totally spot on though with that. I mean, it's not always about you. And it's kind of like what I was saying earlier. Like, it's like, you know, I don't want somebody to tell my story for me, just as I don't want to tell somebody else's story. Like I like, you know, I mean, I've known Erica for a long time, I could probably tell pieces of her story, but I'm going to tell my version of the story, because I don't know, you know, I know what she's told me. Just as you know, somebody else might tell a different version of like, well, this is what they know about me. Well, then you're not necessarily speaking my truth, and you're not necessarily putting what I would put out there. And so I think that that's where, you know, and amplifying each other, and giving each other a platform and giving each other you know, soapbox, so to speak. You know, it is a very different approach than being like, "hey, you know what, I'm going to paraphrase your life for you. And I'm going to paraphrase paraphrase your experiences, actually, hey, why don't I just back up in stop and allow you the opportunity, I'm gonna yield my time and you're gonna share your own story," you know.
Erica D'Eramo 41:19
Like, to boil it down in a microcosm, in a meeting, right, we've all seen, like, the woman says something and then the man gets credit for it. But where that can work really well. So one alternative is if you notice something, someone being spoken over in a meeting, you can say, "Hey, that I just heard this person, say XYZ." Or you can say, "Timeout, seven people have cut this person off, they had something valuable to say, hey, person, yep, the floor is yours." Right? Like,
Gene Valentin 41:52
I love that, that brings that energy.
Erica D'Eramo 41:55
That's the difference between like, swooping in and being the hero and speaking on behalf of them, versus just creating the space and, and the room for that voice to come through. And to be heard.
Gene Valentin 42:08
Exactly.
Jason Gray 42:08
Right?
Gene Valentin 42:09
I wish more people had that energy.
Erica D'Eramo 42:12
Say it louder.
Gene Valentin 42:12
I wish more people had that energy, like the amount of times... I I'm not gonna go on a rant about how much I like can't stand when I'm in like those settings. And I say something. And I already know I speak a little low, and then lower tone. But it's so frustrating when I'm sitting and I'm like saying this really good idea that I'm saying this really like really awesome point. Someone right next to me, says it, who's louder, physically, but also in other ways, of they're like lived experience, and I'm just like, alright, well, you know what, but it's also like, then I don't have the energy all the time too to be like, here it goes, again. This is happening.
Erica D'Eramo 42:55
Yeah.
Gene Valentin 42:55
You know, and that's a whole other side of this conversation as well, too.
Erica D'Eramo 42:59
Yeah. I think giving people that alternative, though, of like, here's how you can support me is really helpful. Instead of just like, don't do that. Don't do that. Don't do that.
Gene Valentin 43:08
Yeah.
Jason Gray 43:08
Right.
Erica D'Eramo 43:09
I think people should be able to take the like criticism or the key of like, "don't do that" and not crumble under it. But I find that in any case, like in any case, we're trying to redirect behavior. It's like, this is what it this is what good would look like, here's how I understand you're trying to support me, like, here's how you can do it more effectively.
Gene Valentin 43:30
Right.
Jason Gray 43:30
Right.
Erica D'Eramo 43:32
You're seeing the goodness in the person and redirecting them to how to do it for when it's well intentioned.
Gene Valentin 43:37
Exactly. And it's like, listen to your friends, when they say like, "Hey, like I heard you or, like I saw your attempts there. It's like I and I appreciate it." Or even if you don't appreciate it, but like if you're like I saw you're trying to do but like that's that's not how I would have done that, like, just take that feedback, it doesn't mean that what you're doing, doesn't mean you're a bad person. Like it just means that you could show up in a better way, once you accept the feedback,
Erica D'Eramo 44:00
Right. Because making people like jump through these tiny, miniscule hoops to be able to give you constructive feedback such that you will receive it... A) you miss out on so much.
Gene Valentin 44:12
Yeah.
Erica D'Eramo 44:13
And B) like, that's so much more burden for the person, this whole tone policing thing of like, "Well, you could have been nicer in how you delivered it." Like, ugh, okay, but you know what? So it's there's a lot of values. There's a lot of valuable feedback from people that you'll miss out on if it has to be delivered exactly right. Not to offend your ego or your you know, sensibilities.
Gene Valentin 44:38
Exactly, exactly.
Erica D'Eramo 44:39
Um, I want to mention one thing, because you mentioned neurodiversity.
Gene Valentin 44:44
Yeah.
Erica D'Eramo 44:45
In this whole intersectionality conversation, I think it's important, neurodiversity and disability, I was reading this book while I was reading a couple books. One was called "We're Not Broken" by Eric Garcia, which was really good.
Gene Valentin 44:59
Yeah, I've heard of this.
Erica D'Eramo 45:00
Yeah. I recommended it. Yep. Um, and takes a very intersectional approach to it.
Gene Valentin 45:05
Yeah.
Erica D'Eramo 45:06
Even though I'm pretty sure Eric Garcia is like, identifies as straight cis, man. Um, he does a great job of capturing that. But he really focuses on how prevalent are like the the massive overlap that there is between queerness and neurodiversity?
Gene Valentin 45:25
Oh Yep.
Erica D'Eramo 45:25
Which is really interesting to me, because I, I can't wait for them to do more research on this. But my hypothesis, like my gut feel is that people who have had to live outside of the boundaries of normal their whole life, put less, perhaps, like put less measure on conforming to these like binary or conforming to like the way they're supposed to show up in the world. Because there's just never been be like, that's never been an option, right to be like, quote, unquote, normal or typical.
Gene Valentin 45:58
Yeah.
Jason Gray 45:58
Sure. Sure.
Erica D'Eramo 45:59
I'm saying this like from my own neurodiverse lived experience.
Gene Valentin 46:03
I mean, same.
Erica D'Eramo 46:04
Right, like you were, you had to like mask that whole time. Also Unmasking Autism. Another great book by Devin, Dr. Devin Price, from a trans, like perspective.
Gene Valentin 46:16
Yes.
Erica D'Eramo 46:16
So so when you think about that, though, like the fruitfulness that exists, yeah, accessing these voices, who have had to, like live creatively, who've had to kind of find their way to being themselves in
Gene Valentin 46:31
Yup
Erica D'Eramo 46:31
...in a world that isn't designed for them.
Gene Valentin 46:34
Yeah, yep. Because even at a base level, so much of us have internalized ableism. And that is, that goes far beyond just physical ableism. It goes into like, your entire brain chemistry. And yeah, sure. Yeah. Like that is the like, that is the basis of like our first thing to unpack.
Erica D'Eramo 46:58
You know, now that you're saying that it's making me think about, I'm just recovering from this like weeks-long cold. I guess it was a cold or flu. It was probably the flu, actually. And I have been beating up on myself so much because, I've been so tired. I can't get stuff done. I've been, I've been in a brain fog and like, it's that internalized ableism through directed towards myself.
Gene Valentin 47:20
Yeah.
Erica D'Eramo 47:20
If it's, I'm directing it towards myself, then it's there, you know?
Gene Valentin 47:22
Yep. Yeah.
Erica D'Eramo 47:23
Just, oh, just to make it about me for a minute.
Jason Gray 47:28
And now, we're the Tyra Banks show.
Erica D'Eramo 47:35
What were you saying, Jason?
Jason Gray 47:36
I said, "And now we're at the Tyra Banks Show, let's bring it back to me."
Erica D'Eramo 47:43
I guess I'm agreeing.
Gene Valentin 47:45
I resonate with what you said. I mean, I resonate so much, because I think too, like I know, we've like talked about, like our TikTok habits already. But like I have, maybe I'm just speaking for myself, like I have found out so many reasons as to like, why now when I like go into a, like bar after work, I immediately have a panic attack. It's like, "oh, no, you're good. Dude, you're just overstimulated. Like, there's just too loud in here. It's just too hot. And you can't handle how hot you are right now. Like, like, it's okay."
Erica D'Eramo 48:18
I know I in some ways, reading about my own neurodiversity has been like getting the decoder ring or whatever. I'm just like, able to see. But to me, it's so tied up in my queerness as well.
Gene Valentin 48:31
Yeah.
Erica D'Eramo 48:32
Like they are really intermeshed in a way that I probably need to do some writing on because I haven't verbalized it very well. But yeah, that's...
Jason Gray 48:42
Some self exploration is necessary.
Erica D'Eramo 48:45
Yeah, probably needs to make it into my Morning Pages journaling.
Gene Valentin 48:48
I love that though. I would love let's see, what you can uncover as you go deeper into this, truthfully, because I've also been seeing a lot more TikTok videos on the link between neurodivergence, queerness and also now playing into relationship styles as well.
Erica D'Eramo 49:06
Oh, yeah. Polyamory. Yup.
Gene Valentin 49:10
Because it... people like to make the jokes but you cannot function in any type of non-monogamy or like, you know, non-traditional. I'm putting that in quotes, because like, that's, but you can't like that. That involves a lot of scheduling. And we're gonna talk about scheduling and neurodivergence that is a... ooof.
Erica D'Eramo 49:34
I'm sure there are apps. I'm sure somebody has had an IPO for an app.
Gene Valentin 49:37
I've tried Google Calendar. I've tried Google calendar. It doesn't work for me.
Erica D'Eramo 49:40
No I mean like a polyamory app for scheduling.
Gene Valentin 49:42
Oh my god. I would love that.
Erica D'Eramo 49:44
Well, and see and that's the thing you gotta invent.
Yeah, maybe. Yeah.
Make our millions
Gene Valentin 49:50
Yeah, maybe I can copyright it. Is that Is that what you do?
Erica D'Eramo 49:52
I don't know, I don't know. Whoever's listening, he already has the IP on that so don't do it.
Jason Gray 49:58
I did see today. Just the the new version of iOS 17 for iPhones coming out has a new journaling feature. Like it's like an actual, like built in journaling. And you can like, you can, like, connect all of your like apps to it. So like, all of the pictures that you take that day and like, how many steps you got that day and like basically like everything you choose to sync to it. It's like it, here's my day. And you can like see, has like machine learning that it'll like help to like predict some of your life. Like, yeah, it's actually pretty crazy. Yeah.
Gene Valentin 50:33
So excited. But I'm gonna be so annoying with that.
Erica D'Eramo 50:36
They're going to build the mock up of us, it's like, oh, Erica 2.0 will arrive on the delivery truck. I don't know why.
Jason Gray 50:48
It says it'll like suggest, like journal like the it'll suggest like, like titles of like your day for you. And like, here's the name of my journal entry today. And like, here's a brief synopsis. Like, Yeah, crazy. Like, it looks like it's gonna be really neat for people. I don't personally journal. So like, I'm like, whatever. But like for people who are like, big into it, I'm like, oh, that would be really neat. Like, it looks really cool.
Erica D'Eramo 51:10
You know? Yeah, I have very mixed feelings about all the AI stuff for sure. And I know, it's like, I'm trying to not get overwhelmed, and like worry about the computers taking over. But in some ways, oh, like, using some of these AI things kind of just like can help get beyond from from a neurodivergence standpoint, it can help. I know, we're kind of off the pride track right now. But it can help get beyond what my limitations are in my brain that I don't even realize, like the blinders I put into my brain.
Gene Valentin 51:41
Yeah.
Erica D'Eramo 51:42
So if I can give it like a feed of
Jason Gray 51:44
Yeah. And get like a... Yeah.
Erica D'Eramo 51:47
Yeah. And you can just spit a bunch of stuff out that's like, what about this? Or what about that? Or what about this? And especially visually, like the one that does different imaging and you kind of give it a few cue words?
Jason Gray 51:59
Yeah.
Erica D'Eramo 52:00
And it'll create these, like paintings or whatever. That's been really interesting for my creativity to kind of get me beyond what I can.
Gene Valentin 52:08
Yeah.
Jason Gray 52:08
Yeah, I think the importance is like knowing like, when to be like, "Whoa, pause, I'm gonna step away from this" or like, "Hey, I'm gonna ask, you know, ChatGPT, to, like, create this for me, and then I'm gonna read it, and I'm gonna be like, Okay, I'm gonna take one paragraph out of that. And the rest of it, I'm deleting," you know, because I think like, it's like, how do you know when to be like, okay, pause. Like, I'm not taking all this because it's too much. You know, so I think that there's but but it is, it is neat, though. You know, I mean, it is really neat to see it. But yeah, I agree. It's a little sketch.
Erica D'Eramo 52:39
Well the sketch part is when the machine decides it knows better. That's what I'm worried about.
Jason Gray 52:43
Yeah, right.
Gene Valentin 52:45
I do not like I'm already pushing it with like Instagram and like, I'm trying to not be on that AI thing. And I am terrified that it's gonna, I'm gonna find something that I, I become obsessive over because I've neurodivergent, then I tend to, yeah, pinpoint and have tunnel vision. So
Erica D'Eramo 53:05
Don't worry. Just give yourself some commitments that you got to follow through on and it'll wear right off, the hyperfocus. All I need to negate my hyperfocus is a few deadlines, and all of a sudden, it becomes way less exciting for me.
Gene Valentin 53:22
I feel that.
Erica D'Eramo 53:23
Um, so we've talked about, okay, we've kind of we've talked about all the different things we were discussing. Or like that we mentioned the beginning of the episode. I do think one of the areas that we haven't talked about is sort of like this labels. And as soon as Jason was saying LGBTQIA plus, that to me, I wonder where we're gonna be in 20 years as far as the labels go, because I feel like where our rainbow flag right now is like these bands of color. And I kind of see it representing like, the different letters, right, sorry. I mean, yes, in a way, yes. And then not necessarily, but I see that really just blending where the bands go away. And it truly is a gradient, and we're maybe not trying to use these letters anymore, because they're not as, they're not as like applicable, especially as gender binary starts to fade away, like how you relate to the people that you are attracted to, goes away, like, it doesn't go away, but like those words aren't as applicable anymore. And also, we will always try to describe our own human human condition. Right. So
Gene Valentin 54:42
Oh absolutely.
Erica D'Eramo 54:42
There will just be there will just be more and more words to describe that and I think that's wonderful and beautiful.
Gene Valentin 54:48
Yeah.
Erica D'Eramo 54:49
I had a boss one time say like, "Ugh, what is this like? demisexual and sapiosexual. It's just too much I just can't keep up!" and it's like you don't have to keep up this isn't necessarily for you. This is for people to describe how they're feeling.
Gene Valentin 55:03
Yeah.
Erica D'Eramo 55:03
And what they're experiencing.
Gene Valentin 55:04
Exactly.
Jason Gray 55:05
Yup.
Erica D'Eramo 55:05
Anyways, what are your thoughts?
Gene Valentin 55:07
I don't know. I think I... and I think this may be plays into like other people's experiences. Like, especially when you're coming out and you're you're like a new little baby queer. When I came out as a little baby, cis little lesbian, I was slapping that Pride flag on everything I owned. I was buying T-shirts that said girls on it like for no reason like.
Erica D'Eramo 55:32
Live. Laugh. Lesbian?
Gene Valentin 55:33
Yeah, like live, Oh, god, that was god awful one. But like, but like, you're so excited because you you're like, I have a label. You're like, I know what I am.
And you find your people
Exactly. So it's like, I don't want to completely disparage and like discount labels in their space of like finding community and finding friends and finding love and like just like finding your people like so I don't want to discredit them in that regard. However, we've also seen like labels be the primary focus and gatekeeping people in spaces like because you can walk into a bar, like I've walked in so many, like, you know, quote, gay bars that were primarily for cis gay men. And because I didn't fit that label, the second I walk in there,
Erica D'Eramo 56:22
You didn't go to the one lesbian bar left?
Gene Valentin 56:25
Oh my god, you know,
Erica D'Eramo 56:26
it's in California I think.
Gene Valentin 56:27
Oh my god. Yeah. Let me just just go back in time and pack up my bags.
Erica D'Eramo 56:31
Just kidding. I don't know. Jason. I don't know if you knew this, but the lesbian bars are disappearing.
Gene Valentin 56:36
Yeah, yeah.
Jason Gray 56:37
I think we talked about it a little bit last time. Generally, yeah. You know, and I've actually seen, you know, back to our, you know, seeing things on Tik Tok, I've actually seen a number of TikToks of, you know, the, these bars, and it's like, where are they going? Like, what, like, why, like, what's happening? And I do wonder, though, you're kind of as the, the stem of this, this portion of conversation, I do wonder if some of that has to do with the fact of so many people moving away from, you know, hey, I'm this or I'm that or it's like, Hey, I'm a human, and I'm gonna just kind of do whatever. And I think that that's where, you know, and I think that where, you know, having these safe spaces, which, you know, generally used to be, you know, a gay bar, or lesbian bar, or, you know, an inclusive space, where I wonder, you know, some of these safe spaces that have been infiltrated, if you will, by, you know, by everybody else. And I wonder if we are also taking some of those spaces that necessarily were not safe spaces for, you know, the queer community and saying, hey, you know, what, we feel safe here, now, we're gonna become part of this. And so I'm also wondering, you know, if there's, if we haven't, to some degree, kind of done it to ourselves, however, not intentionally thinking like, Oh, hey, I'm gonna go be a part of this whole mainstream group, not realizing that the unintended consequence of that is like, hey, now this bar that really depended on my community, doesn't have enough patrons to, to continue. And so I wonder if that you know, is, is a byproduct, so to speak of, you know, losing some of that diehard focus on hey, you know, I'm a lesbian or like, Hey, I'm bisexual, or hey, you know, and so, you know, I again, I don't know, you know, I don't know enough about the topic, I guess, to be really informed and make like, an informed. But I would be curious to know, you know, if it maybe has happened, you know, unintentionally.
Erica D'Eramo 58:39
Some of the some of it is a cultural like, within, within, like, the queer woman culture, because there has been like, a culture
Gene Valentin 58:51
Yeah.
Erica D'Eramo 58:51
Over the years, you know, that maybe didn't lend itself as much to the party scene or like the bar scene.
Gene Valentin 59:01
Yeah.
Erica D'Eramo 59:01
As much as like in the gay male community, or queer male journey. I'm making broad generalizations. But that was just kind of my my observation. I always felt though no matter what city I lived in, I felt like you needed a secret handshake or like a secret door, you had to find the door with the lesbians, like, you had to figure out where they were hiding. And then once you open the door, then it's like, oh, you're tapped into the network. And it's all networked. But it's like, behind closed doors.
Gene Valentin 59:30
Yeah.
Erica D'Eramo 59:31
In a way that was I don't know.
Gene Valentin 59:34
Well, I think I was like I was jokingly as you're saying that jokingly going to ask you like, "Okay, well, Erica, women went to lesbians look like?" but like, that's also a part of this conversation of like, of like, yeah, like people don't know, because it's like, okay, now we're asking the question of like, what does queer look like? How do we find the people who like who quote look like they might have the same experience that we do?
Jason Gray 59:58
Right?
Erica D'Eramo 59:59
Because that's why the rainbow pin on the bag used to be so valuable! Because you're like, "Gasp, there she is!"
Gene Valentin 1:00:05
Yep, exactly.
Jason Gray 1:00:06
Right.
Gene Valentin 1:00:06
And that's how, you know, people make the jokes about like, you know, like, especially if you are like more like, you know, femme or like androgyny, like leaning and you have like a carabiner on your pants. It's like implied okay, like, maybe you're queer. I think you are. You have a green carabiner. Like, I don't think that colors actually like matter. But it's like the fact that you have this metal clip hanging from your jeans. It's like, okay, maybe,
Erica D'Eramo 1:00:28
You know, I was talking to my therapist about how I always felt my whole life. It was like, I could be, I just, it cracks me up. And I know, I mentioned this last episode that like, I spent so much of my life, so afraid of being outed, that people were going to see my secret. And then
Gene Valentin 1:00:45
See your lable?
Erica D'Eramo 1:00:46
Well, just, they were going to know, you know, I grew up Catholic, right? Like, I grew up, going, I got like, a perfect score my confirmation exam. So I was just so scared that they were going to figure out that I was like, broken and queer. You know, more than 20 years ago,
Gene Valentin 1:01:03
Right.
Erica D'Eramo 1:01:03
30 years ago. And then, when I finally came out, it was like, "Well, no, no," you know, I'd go to the lesbian bars, and people will be like, "Oh, the straight girl came to the lesbian bar. I'm like "what are you talking about?" I thought I was like, emanating it off of my very being!"
Gene Valentin 1:01:22
Yeah.
Erica D'Eramo 1:01:22
And you're telling me, I don't look queer enough. I don't look lesbian enough. I don't look gay enough. And so now that I'm married to a dude, yeah, it's even more. Like bi-erasure is real.
Gene Valentin 1:01:35
Yeah.
Erica D'Eramo 1:01:36
And I just think, when I said that to my therapist, he was just like, because he's a trans man, too. He was like, I don't know, this is real. Like, what you're feeling? Don't like don't negate it. It's real.
Gene Valentin 1:01:51
Yeah.
Erica D'Eramo 1:01:52
And "I see you" and I started crying.
Gene Valentin 1:01:54
Yeah. That's totally fair. That's totally fair. Because a lot of these things too, like, when we talk about labels, some people really like their, their happiness, like almost like the this label means their life, like, like they...
Erica D'Eramo 1:02:08
Right.
Gene Valentin 1:02:09
They know who they are now, like, so it's like,
Erica D'Eramo 1:02:12
That's true.
Gene Valentin 1:02:13
That is so important to also like to hold space for that, too. Like, I talked about that with my partner because she is bi and she, you know, when we started dating, I was identifying as a cis lesbian. And so we were a very like, quote, like femme for femme, like, outwardly presenting, like to the world. Now, as I identify as like a trans man, and I'm becoming like, more and more passing by the month, we have to have that conversation of like, where her bisexuality fits in, in our relationship, because she now is like, "I can't really bring you to these spaces." And I don't and I don't want to go to these places. Because I'm that's not my space anymore. Yeah.
Erica D'Eramo 1:02:53
Oh, you are part of the reason that lesbians are disappearing.
Gene Valentin 1:02:56
Yep. It's me.
Erica D'Eramo 1:03:10
Okay, I realize like we have we've, we've got quite an episode here. Lots of stuff. Any parting thoughts from you guys? I appreciate we've covered a lot of broad ranging ground.
Gene Valentin 1:03:22
We did, but it was, it flowed so nicely. I don't know.
Erica D'Eramo 1:03:26
Oh.
Gene Valentin 1:03:26
Yeah.
Erica D'Eramo 1:03:27
Good.
Gene Valentin 1:03:27
I liked it. I think my final thoughts are like, Pride. Yeah, we get like the one month you know, but it's not. If you know, you know, you know, it's not just the damn one month is every single day of your life. And yeah, if you are someone out there who thinks that you are the only person who exists the way that you are, I promise you're not.
Erica D'Eramo 1:03:53
Yeah.
Gene Valentin 1:03:53
I promise you're not.
Erica D'Eramo 1:03:55
Right. That's what Pride is about. This is the festive season. But like, that is the reason for the season. Yeah. Yeah. Jason, what are your parting thoughts?
Jason Gray 1:04:09
Yeah, I would agree. I mean, I think that, you know, where my mind goes to it as like, you know, being able to realize that, you know, whether you have all of the same opinions, none of the same opinions, whether you present in a way that you feel is completely unique to you, or whether you feel like you know, some days you wake up and you are just a cookie cutter version of something else or somebody else. No matter how you how you see yourself or how somebody else sees you, we're all valid and we're all valued and we all bring something and it's not even necessarily about you know, paving your own way all of the time, like it's okay sometimes to follow. It's also okay sometimes to lead and sometimes it's okay to not know what the hell you're doing. But being able to wake up and be able to realize that, you know, A) the sun rose today B) it's going to set tonight, and tomorrow is going to do the same thing. So like, we all just have to keep moving and helping each other and like when you see someone trip, you need to help that person and you need to help them in a way that's meaningful to them in a way that is valuable and respectful. But you know, I think just being able to just continue on that path of like, "hey, you know what, I'm going to bring you along on this ride. Oh, you don't want to go with me today? That's cool. I'm going to come back for you." And, you know, and just realizing that, like, we're all here together. Like, you know, as I said earlier, like, you know, we're all on borrowed time, like we, you know, we just, we need to just be nice to people and you know, march forward and, you know, just keep, you know, keep on the path.
Gene Valentin 1:05:46
Exactly. Yeah. Community heals.
Erica D'Eramo 1:05:49
What are your big Pride plans this month?
Gene Valentin 1:05:52
Oof. I am... Well, one, planning to host like, the first like, Puerto Rican Pride party where we are right now. So
Erica D'Eramo 1:06:04
Awesome.
Gene Valentin 1:06:09
Something so small.
Erica D'Eramo 1:06:10
Probably the first in the state.
Gene Valentin 1:06:12
Yeah.
Erica D'Eramo 1:06:12
Literally. Yeah.
Gene Valentin 1:06:13
Yeah.
Erica D'Eramo 1:06:14
Jason, what about you? what are your big plans?
Jason Gray 1:06:16
No plans. I don't get really involved.
Erica D'Eramo 1:06:20
Aren't you going down to DR?
Jason Gray 1:06:21
Well. Yeah, I mean, that's not... But I mean, it's not a Pride event. But yeah, I'm going to see Jose. So some, some friends and and family and I are going to see Jose. So super excited for that. So we'll have our own Pride event. You know, just just the two of us.
Erica D'Eramo 1:06:39
Yeah, my Pride plans are I gotta replace the Pride flag on my house because it's getting a little raggedy, but I've got a stack of them ready to go. So that's gonna happen. And I'm gonna hang out with my cats. That's kind of it. There's a joke in there somewhere. Mostly PG.
Jason Gray 1:07:06
I think there are certainly a few jokes layered in there, but we'll leave all of them.
Erica D'Eramo 1:07:15
On that note, for everyone listening, obviously, if you want to understand how you can be more inclusive in your workplace, or, you know, if you're exploring life and what that means and what you want to do and where you want to put your energies. You can find us at twopiersconsulting.com And on the socials at the usuals @twopiersconsult. And we look forward to speaking to you next episode. So thanks for joining on this ride.