Productivity and ADHD

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Transcript below:

Erica D'Eramo 0:10

Hello, and welcome to the Two Piers podcast. Today's episode is all about distraction, productivity, and those of us working in the times of the coronavirus pandemic, and also with ADHD. Today, we have a guest joining us, Miranda Moore. She's a freelance writer and a journalist. And she's going to join us to discuss her shared experiences around ADHD, neurodiversity, and productivity.

Erica D'Eramo 0:48

So hi, Miranda, thanks for joining us.

Miranda Moore 0:51

Hi, Erica, thank you so much for having me.

Erica D'Eramo 0:53

So tell us a little bit about yourself.

Miranda Moore 0:56

Um, well, as you said, I'm a freelance writer and journalist. I'm currently living in South Florida in Palm Beach County with my fiance and our two cats. Um, prior to freelancing, I was a staff investigative reporter with a local newspaper down here. And then before becoming a journalist, I actually worked as a paralegal in federal prosecution and human rights prosecutions. And then before that, I was in the Peace Corps. So I've done a few things and lived a few places. And yeah, happy to be here.

Erica D'Eramo 1:28

Cool, that's quite a diversity of experience. And I think some of that will come into play as we talk about what works for us. And you and I have, you know, different type of work environments and different type of work schedules, and yet probably a lot of shared experiences around how we handle our workload productivity and doing that with ADHD. So I think my my first question for you is for you, specifically, how does ADHD manifest. Like, what does it look like? Particularly around productivity?

Miranda Moore 2:03

Yeah, um, so for me, my ADHD, it's sort of been like, I sort of bounce between these two extremes of periods of high productivity, to periods of low productivity. And so it tends to be very cyclical. How often that cycle lasts, or how often it repeats sort of just depends on whatever external circumstances I'm facing, whether it's like deadlines, or pressures, just dealing with stuff at home, or the rest of my workload or whatever. I've my biggest challenge has always been executive function tasks. So specifically working ahead on things and being able to plan ahead and sort of execute things in a reasonable way, I tend to wait till the very last minute, I'm a chronic procrastinator, for sure, and so I'm usually okay with prioritizing where I can prioritize pretty well, but it's just like, you know, putting pen to paper and actually getting stuff done. And actually doing the things that I've prioritized is what I struggle most with. And so, sometimes, like, for my bosses, it's been sort of confusing, because for big stuff, if I'm kind of like, Yeah, I know, this is a thing I have to do. But I'm not necessarily like, bought into it in a big way. It can be a struggle for them, because they're just like, okay, but you're just not doing anything versus when I'm really interested in something, that's the only thing I can do. And so that hyperfocus makes it look like I'm very engaged and passionate, or whatever. But, you know, I think a lot of bosses just didn't understand that that's just like a lack of balance in my brain, sort of where I go between these two extremes. And so the way I usually got stuff done that I didn't particularly want to do was just waiting till the last minute and then rushing to get it all done in this sort of like flurry of activity.

Erica D'Eramo 4:03

Yeah.

Miranda Moore 4:03

Yeah. And so it was easy to fudge when you're like, in an academic setting, like when you're in school, or whatever, like, I don't think a teacher really, you know, I think, Well, I think the the kind of product that you're producing, doesn't really make a difference, if at least for me, if I did it spread out through several weeks, or if I did it at the last minute, it would kind of look the same. But when you're in a work setting, like you can't fudge that anymore. Like it's just you can tell when it's just you haven't put in the work continuously. And so that's where I've struggled a lot.

Erica D'Eramo 4:35

Yeah, there's also the element of having to be seated in front of people being kind of watched while you need to be productive, or at least need to be pretending to be productive. And I know for me sitting in desk jobs, that was a lot of the struggle, in that I needed the pressure in order to be able to focus that I needed a short amount of time not to drag things out, and not to get distracted. So that pressure was really helpful for me. But then it also meant this dread of having to kind of fill that time up until pressure point...

Miranda Moore 5:10

Yeah.

Erica D'Eramo 5:11

...of and appear to be busy when I knew that this wasn't going to be my best work because I wasn't super engaged, or if you know enthusiastic about it, I wasn't hyper focused. And I wasn't in crunch time yet. And I, I always thought it was interesting that I would describe myself and you know, even my mother would describe me as working really well under pressure, and that I thrive under pressure. And I'm realizing now that was really just my ADHD manifesting even in childhood, you know, pulling all nighters in middle school or high school to get stuff done. And it was because I sort of needed that pressure to focus.

Miranda Moore 5:50

Yeah, same. Same with me, and that with me, that sort of all or nothing, like I'm either working nonstop, or I'm not working at all, it just leads to this, like, burnout to me. So for me, it's like, it's not necessarily that I'm doing nothing, it's just like, I almost need recovery time, a little bit. And so it's been a struggle for me to, to approach work in a more balanced way, where you're not just like kind of in just a panic state all the time just to get stuff done.

Erica D'Eramo 6:23

Yeah.

Miranda Moore 6:23

Yeah. And another way that like ADHD really manifests for me is with my sleep cycle, like, I know that the ADHD and sleep cycle is, you know, that sort of, a lot of people struggle with both of those things. And for, like, delayed sleep phase can be a common symptom of ADHD. And that's, that is the case for me. And so kind of my natural work hours are like much later in the day, like, if it were up to me, rather than working like a nine to five, I would work like two to 10. Like that would be my preference. And so but every job I've ever had sort of forced me into this nine to five or eight to five kind of schedule. And but if my brain just doesn't shut down, in order to get to sleep in time, or if my brain just can't start working until much later than, like, several hours after I'm at work, it's just I have several hours at work where I'm not productive, either because I'm sleep deprived, or, because like, my brain is just not kicking off until much later in the day. And so, you know, but then, if I am working, like, you know, my brain finally does start working later in the day, I start, I get started on something, and I don't want to stop by five o'clock or whatever. And so because it's only like three or four hours of productive time, by the time everybody's going home. So a lot of times, I would just sit through and keep working almost like a kind of penance or whatever, it's because I didn't feel like I was getting enough done earlier in the day. And so yeah, a lot of times I would put in 12 hour days, it's not like it would be 12 hours of solid work, but it would be 12 hours of physically being there. Just to be able to get everything done that other folks, I feel like were getting done in in eight hours. But it just took me a lot longer just to get my brain to catch up with the daily schedule.

Erica D'Eramo 8:15

Yeah. I, I feel like there have been multiple studies now conducted on how society views, morning people versus evening people and how hard wired our brains are actually for when we are most productive. And so you can kind of force us into being morning people. If we're not, but we just that'll never, that's sort of hardwired into our chemistry in some ways. For for some people, I think there's it's obviously a distribution. But typically, at least in Western society, that morning, that morning Lark, you know, the early bird gets the worm, there's all these. There's all this kind of morality around, getting up early and being productive early and showing up in the office early. Even if you leave, you know, even if you leave at three o'clock in the afternoon, if you got in early, then that sort of is an indicator that you're one of the productive people. And I was the same way in that I would get in early but it would take me a long time to ramp up my productivity. I would get in early if I was forced to but not kind of of my own volition. But then I would usually hit my stride right as everyone else was packing up in the office. And I would then stay way past dinnertime sometimes till like eight o'clock you're the only person in the office but you're really kind of finally getting that meatier part done or I would even just take the work home and do it at home. So it looked like I was putting in long hours but it was really just around my peak hitting much later in the day for me. And that wasn't always an option. You know, a lot of the a lot of the folks that listen to this podcast actually are working in industries that have no flexibility around your sleep schedule. So either, you know, 12 hour shifts from 6am to 6pm. Or sometimes people are working, you know, weird, wonky shifts like noon to midnight. And I think that that can be really challenging, especially pre ADHD diagnosis, you know, if people have this have this sort of tendency in the background and haven't acknowledged it, then it just shows up as like sleeping through your alarm, or being really groggy and beating yourself up about it.

Miranda Moore 10:42

Yeah, I felt like a lot of, you know, insecurity around, like, you know, if I get to work late, just because I couldn't get myself up or, you know, whatever, I just wasn't getting enough sleep. And eventually, that would catch up with me and lead to kind of prolonged periods of like, maybe I was physically there, but I just mentally wasn't there. And so yeah, it was a lot of years of beating myself up and criticizing myself. And you know, other people can do this, why can't I? You know, and it really wasn't until I got my ADHD diagnosis. And I realized that was a part of it, that a lot of the light bulbs went off for me. And so my approach since then, since finding out has been sort of, you know, let's not like I have the flexibility, thankfully, to just not, you know, I was able to create my own work schedule, and able to do those things that sort of lean into my brain chemistry more than work against it. I, you know, I'm lucky that I no longer have to work a set schedule, if I decide not to, you know, rather than trying to artificially force myself into a schedule that just does not work with my brain, that being able to just appreciate it and go with it, and kind of let my brain do the like, lead the way a little bit in terms of when I work and how long I work. And...

Erica D'Eramo 12:08

Yeah.

Miranda Moore 12:09

That's that's helped me just mentally just in terms of my emotional health as well.

Erica D'Eramo 12:13

Yeah, I mean, when I finally had someone recommend to me, the book Delivered From Distraction. And I, they said, you know, you should probably read this, some of the things that you're talking to me about some of the things you've been struggling with, you might actually have ADHD, and I thought, No, I, that doesn't, I was never hyperactive, never had the H. That doesn't, probably doesn't sound like me. I went through engineering school, I made through engineering school. And, and then I read the book. And I, I think, you know, I've talked to you about this, that I literally started crying because I realized that all of this emotional energy I'd put into beating myself up for years for decades, through my childhood, my formative years, because I couldn't get up early because I couldn't stay focused, because I was super forgetful. All these little moral digs that I would give myself, were actually a part of this very complex human brain that that came with the bright sides as well that I would were some of my favorite parts about myself that I would never want to give up. And that just that realization of, you don't like this piece about yourself. And yet, it's tied to this other piece of you that you absolutely love about yourself, would you want to give them both up if you could, and I realized, like, no, I absolutely wouldn't. And it kind of just allowed me to put down this weight of judgment that I kept having against myself, and then just start acting logically, like, like you said, leaning into it in that not not fighting those natural tendencies and just creating the structure around them in my life, that would allow me to be most effective. So part of that wasn't feasible at the time I was working when I had that realization, I was working one of those kind of 6am to 6pm jobs offshore 28 day hitches and really struggling. I mean, that's why it pushed me to the point of finally saying, like, Okay, I need some help Let me read this book. But at that point, I decided I am going to set it as a goal to set my own hours one day, and that's how, you know, that's how I started working towards starting my own business and, and having a bit more say over how I spend my time when I spend it where I spend it where I put my energy.

Miranda Moore 14:48

Yeah, I I didn't necessarily set out to decide that, you know, I just want to pick my own hours and I want to, you know, set my own kind of work patterns and things. I fell into it because I was actually I mean, if I don't know, if anyone listening like pays attention to, like the news media industry, in the newspaper industry specifically, it's in kind of a volatile place in terms of its own kind of ability to exist at all. And so at the very start of the pandemic, not because of the pandemic, but just at the beginning of it, I my job was eliminated, it was because of a corporate merger didn't have anything to do with the pandemic is just, it was just weird timing. And so my job was eliminated. And then I went from, like, you know, being at the office 12 hours a day to all of a sudden, like I, you know, have no structure whatsoever. And I always responded, I always found that I needed external structure, just because of my inability to stay organized, kind of and stay on top of my, I needed those external pressures for the dopamine to like, like, motivate me to get anything done. But without that, I really had to do a lot of soul searching. And that was actually when I got my diagnosis was a couple months after I was laid off. And I was, you know, kind of looking at different treatment options. I had suspected for years, but sort of got like, went to get the official diagnosis. And that sort of in between time after I got laid off, and I was just taking time to figure out what I wanted, you know, and even is this an industry, the news industry that I even want to be a part of, because it chews people up and spits them out and kind of ruthlessly and I feel like that's, there's a lot of talk right now in the journalism industry at large about burnout. And a lot of it's because, you know, people have been reporting on the pandemic, and they've been reporting from home and they're, you know, there's a lot of trauma and, you know, there's so many hours they're putting in, but burnout was a problem before. And it's, it's especially difficult when you're neurodivergent. Because I feel like so many of these challenges that journalists are talking about, like, if it's hell for neurotypical people, what do you think it is for people who operate on a burnout cycle, like their brains just do that, you know? And so, that's one reason like I wanted to come on this podcast was just to, you know, so we could get out there, like, for other journalists, who may also be struggling with this, even beyond the normal burnout cycle that's sort of expected isn't and encouraged, as a part of the news industry, not that that's healthy, but you know, it is what it is. Um, and so I wanted to at least have the, you know, put the awareness out there that, like, there are other journalists who, you know, have ADHD and all of the challenges you may be facing are not, you, and it's both of this industry, but it's also just, I don't know, for those of us who are prone to burnout cycles anyway, this industry is just particularly harsh. And so I found that freelancing, where I can create my own hours, and I have the freedom to take breaks if I need to, I don't need to, like get approval, because my staff job, I had 15 days period, that was sick leave and personal leave, that was all I got for an entire year. And I read a study that like, I think it was based in Australia, but still, I don't see why it wouldn't be applicable, where it's like people with ADHD tend to take I thought it was like 17 more days off per year than their neurotypical counterparts. And I'm like, well, that's my entire leave allowance. That's vacations. It's sick leave, that's everything that I was allowed. And so but this is, you know, this is practice and it's allowed. And I think that a lot of my being able to decouple like, productivity expectations, in like, a capitalist sense, like in sort of a cutthroat, sort of, you know, you have to meet these impossible expectations, or you're not going to have a job anymore, kind of this way of thinking, like decoupling myself from that has been, like, as beneficial as an ADHD diagnosis, honestly. So in terms of, of being able to recreate balance my life again.

Erica D'Eramo 19:19

Yeah, I mean, especially in America I feel like we have a very interesting relationship with sort of that grind culture. And it's not it's not just America, it shows up in there are quite a few countries that celebrate and cultures that celebrate sort of that burnout, that grind.

Miranda Moore 19:41

It's almost like a moral thing, like, it's a symbol of, of, like piety, or like morality or something that you've worked yourself to the bone and I'm like, but for what, like, newspaper reporters are, like, terribly paid like, it's, you know, I mean, I was one of the highest paid people in my newsroom, my editor said, but I was still like making less than what like a public school teacher would make. You know, and it's just like the the wages are so suppressed for for journalists. And yet, you're still expected to kill yourself every day and like, experience trauma and internalize that, and they only give you like 15 days off a year. And then it's just like, so it's impossible. My brain was so overloaded the entire time, I worked in a staff job, and I just don't think now that I'm freelancing, and I'm able to kind of create my own schedule and hours. And, you know, it's, I don't think I I'm not sure I could ever go back to a staff job, honestly.

Erica D'Eramo 20:37

Yeah.

Miranda Moore 20:37

And I'm very lucky that I have the privilege to be able to do that. And it is, you know, I need to admit the privilege, I feel like because...

Miranda Moore 20:45

Yeah.

Miranda Moore 20:46

...yeah, like, not everyone works in an industry where they can do that. And not everyone has the freedom and I'm like, I have a partner who makes enough to support both of us. And so that's if I didn't have that, I'd probably be still be looking for a staff job and, and kind of still living that burnout cycle, just to make ends meet, but I'm very lucky that, that I have the privilege to be able to create my own work schedule. So.

Erica D'Eramo 21:13

Yeah, my privilege absolutely has allowed me to go out and do what I'm passionate about, regardless of whether it is financially stable or not. So the combination of having worked in an in an industry that paid very well, for many years, and having a partner who's fully employed has enabled me to kind of do this thing that I'm really passionate about, and also allows me to choose my own hours. So one element that I found, as I transitioned into kind of defining my own work hours, my own objectives was that I tend to my one of my biggest challenges right now is just that I tend to want to do everything at once. And I have so many different ideas that pop in my head. And I am so inspired about different things. And there's just this very non linear connection between it all and it's kind of putting, taking all that and forcing it into some sort of hopper or routine and putting structure around it so that I'm not just kind of overwhelmed by all the things I'm trying to do at once. That's been that's been a growth, especially with the pandemic. And, you know, we moved, I uprooted us and took out all of the structure and all of the supports that I had in my life. And we were staying in a hotel room for several months. And I kind of had this moment in February, where it all just became a bit too much. And that was the inspiration for why I wanted to record this podcast episode and have you on, because at that point, it was like I was just trying to do way too much. And it was kind of all hitting this bottleneck of how much I could execute. And I had to have a bit of an intervention with myself so that I could at least be effective.

Miranda Moore 23:21

Yeah, it was tough like because once I was laid off, and then I sort of did a lot of soul searching and decided that you know, I wanted to freelance I didn't want to go back to a staff job. We had to move because environment is really a big trigger for my distractibility, like a newsrooms are very open work environments. And so there's always like, there's always breaking news, there's always, you know, some big story happening and a lot of people running around. And so it was tough to be productive in the office. But then when I was at home like we, we because we relocated down here from my job, and then my fiance at that time transitioned to fully remote work back then when we moved. And so we got our apartment where it's it was, he had his office where he could close the door, but then everything else was shared living space. And then when I was all of a sudden working from home, it was impossible. I had like the two cats are climbing all over me and like whatever he was coming in and out and it was just and for me environment is just, I have to have, I have to be able to close the door. Like if I'm really going to be productive. Like, even in the newsroom, I would find a huddle room, like we have these little meeting rooms. Every time it was available, I would be in there. Because I just I needed to shut the door and I had no door to shut. And so we just decided that like if I'm going to do this as a freelancer, we needed a bigger place. And so we had to find a place where you know, and again, it's another thing of privilege where I just, you know, I'm lucky that I'm able to do that not everybody can but uh you know and so we found a place where I thankfully can close the door and I've found I'm able to do a lot more and produce more work and contribute more to the, you know, to the household and everything. And it's just it's, yeah, so it's been worth it. It's but it's a trade off, you know, like, yes, my productivity is increased, but it's also like, at a cost.

Erica D'Eramo 25:18

Yeah.

Miranda Moore 25:18

You know. For me, it's worth it because I love what I do.

Erica D'Eramo 25:21

Yeah. Yeah, at the time we changing environment, you know, we were trying to move into a house. So there was no immediate like relief, aside from going and sitting in my car. There was no, like, immediate relief. But what I did do that was helpful was I sort of reimplemented some of the processes and systems that I, I used, really, when I back when I worked offshore, and I didn't have any flexibility, there was just way too much to do. And there was no, like, you couldn't just go home for the evening and clear your head. There, you had to take a helicopter to get back to shore. So I just created these sort of ways of prioritizing and del... and rationing out my time. That took the buffet element out of it. So you mentioned executive function, like for me this start looking at that to do list and kind of just skimming and saying, Oh, this is the shiny, sparkly thing, that's the thing I'm going to pick to work on. That is not the most efficient way to get things done. And you end up well, at least for me, I end up doing all the things that I enjoy, and none of the things that are kind of more difficult or longer. So I put, you know, typical engineering way I put a spreadsheet together and I had like a little algorithm and I would rank things based on how important they were and how much effort they would take. And that way, it was more of like a set course meal. So when I showed up in the morning, these were the top five things that I needed to do. And I there was no thought into like, oh, what looks prettiest, to me, what looks most exciting it was this is test number one, because that has the most points. And then at the end of the day, I you know, it gamified it so that I would be rewarded with those points. So if I did an activity that took me like three hours, which is kind of nauseating, even to think about sitting and doing something for three hours straight, that I'm not into, then I'd at least get some little like meaningless reward out of it. And that was really helpful. And so I found myself in February, kind of dusting off those spreadsheets and putting them back to use just to take some of the noise out of it for me.

Miranda Moore 27:36

Yeah, one thing that I've I've always really liked lists, and I find that if I try to gamify something, it becomes a perfectionism thing, like I then have to like achieve. Yeah, I've tried that before. I have tried that before. But then it becomes a perfectionism thing, and then I have to get perfect. And if I don't, I'm like, Well, I'm just failing altogether like my perfectionism I can't gamify stuff. And then also, if there's like a big barrier to like, okay, like, if I'm going to organize my thoughts, but then that whole process sort of takes it out of me. And all of like the energy and focus I had to ration then went into just preparing to do the work rather than doing the work, like and so if it's a kind of a big load up front, like that's a non starter for me, personally. So just what I usually do is I try to preempt my focus by doing stuff like so the end of the week, like I actually started this when I was a paralegal at at the Justice Department in Washington, it would be every Friday before I went home, I would put together a list of everything I knew I had to do the next week, and then at the end of every day, I would reassess and be like okay, well what got done, what didn't get done, what got thrown on my plate that wasn't there before that I now have to incorporate and then just at the end of the day, I would reassess for the next day and so I found that when I could go in and get started um already knowing what I had to do. That was a lot easier that that's what helped me more than anything because like I tried to and I researched like all these really like you know fancy ways of like how you be you know, understand and prioritize and encourage like motivate yourself in all of this and I just found that I got so hyper focused on that process that it took all the wind out of my sails for focusing on the actual work so and also if it's like something where there's a big barrier like I don't know I try this because I a lot of another thing too with my ADHD is my kind of just every day life adulting stuff suffers sometimes like when I get so into work, like I find it challenging to like, you know, eat well, or make sure I'm making time to like, for activity and that kind of thing. And those kind of daily things that do impact your productivity, but maybe not in like an immediate, sort of immediate reward kind of way. And so, but I found that if I like, buy into systems or whatever, like I tried, you know, like meal planning, and like all of that, if I do anything super rigid, and I, because there's always something that's going to get in the way, it doesn't matter if you have ADHD or not, life is always gonna get in the way, and you're never going to be able to keep it up perfectly. But I find the second that I falter a little bit, I'm like, throw the whole thing away, I can't do it anymore. And so just when I sort of just keeping it really simple in terms of like developing the list before I have to do the list, helps me and then also just not putting so much into the beforehand also helps me too, just because otherwise I feel like I'm setting myself up to fail a little bit. I don't know.

Erica D'Eramo 31:04

Yeah, that's one of the reasons I really want didn't want to just do this episode on my own, because there is no single way that ADHD manifests. And while we have some similar stories, or experiences or tools or revelations, in some ways, it's going to be really different. I mean, I'm not gonna say I didn't spend like many hours fine tuning that algorithm. But I really do enjoy that. And so that was like my little treat that I got to give myself. Um, but yeah, I I, what you were describing about the the to do list, I found that bullet journals were really helpful for me, and like, not the fancy stuff. But just like literally no book that just helps me. And I'm not always really good about. I mean, I don't know when the last time is that I numbered my pages. Actually. I haven't updated my index recently. But it's there for me to do it if I want to. And so yeah, what are I mean, what are some of the tools that you have found?

Miranda Moore 32:10

Um, when I found bullet journaling, it was like a revelation was very helpful. And then I wasn't, I believe, I don't want to like to say something like false, I haven't confirmed it. But like, I heard that the person who developed it also has ADHD, and that's why he developed it. And so I was like, well, this makes sense, because it works for an ADHD brain. But then, like, you know, I started getting into it. And I started, like, you know, I made the mistake of looking at Pinterest to look at, like, oh what are some fun ways you can like bullet journal and make it effective. And it was like immediate imposter syndrome, like immediate, like, I am not that creative. I'm not that talented, I can never make something like that work for me, whatever. And then I'm just like, well, what am I like, you know, just ignore that. And I had to remind myself to put on the blinders. And like, just think about, you know, you're literally just doing this to organize your stuff to do. And so, when I am able to kind of compartmentalize that, then I found the bullet journal works really, really well for me.

Erica D'Eramo 33:10

Yeah.

Miranda Moore 33:10

One thing that like when I was in grad school, because in between being a paralegal and becoming a journalist, I went back to J school. And just like, grad school is just so like, it is sensory overload. So it's like really difficult for your ADHD. But at the same time, everything is so contained, and compartmentalized that, like, it works well with my ADHD. So I both hated and loved grad school at the same time. But the only thing I found that worked, Target sold these like huge, like, calendars, these desk planners. And there was like a specific format that they had. And I loved that and I haven't found it since but like that planner just fit, it happened to overlap with like, when I was in grad school was perfect. It was like the days of the week on one side. It was just a big open square, and I could put whatever I wanted to in there. And then just like a blank notebook sheet on the other where it could put like kind of all of the lists and expand on like the things I would write in the day square and like whatever. And that was the like, I love that format. I haven't been able to find it since.

Erica D'Eramo 34:13

Yeah.

Miranda Moore 34:14

So I've replicated that just in bullet journals.

Erica D'Eramo 34:17

Yeah. I, I don't you I mean, I have seen kind of the bullet journals that are used sort of as, I don't know, like vision boards, sort of, and sketching and all that and I, similarly to you, I just kind of, it's a great way for me to just get down whatever I need to get down out of my brain without worrying too much about like, is it going in the right spot. It's fine, flip a page, put a title and start writing and it's okay. And it can pass that and it's flexible.

Miranda Moore 34:53

I keep asking myself I'm like who're you trying to impress with this bullet journal like you just need to get stuff done. You don't need to to impress anyone else, no one's looking at it, no one's judging it in an art competition like it's again, the perfectionism thing and the all or nothing thing that that kind of gets the best of me with my ADHD is is you know, I just in my brain have the subconscious, like I have to do it all or absolutely nothing. And that's kind of how I started with the bullet journal. But then eventually, when I just kind of took it back to like the bare minimum it was it was able to work for me.

Erica D'Eramo 35:25

Yeah. I mean, there's a lot. There's a lot in what you just said around perfectionism. And it's interesting, I don't know, if you look at ADHD, and gender, to what extent that perfectionism is sort of shows up a lot with women, maybe more so than men. But I just know that a lot of the women that I know that also deal with ADHD also are perfectionists, and it ties into procrastination, it ties into negative self talk. And so compassion seems to be one thing I'm really trying to focus on, like self compassion, being kind to myself, like that growth mindset of what's, what's the point here, like, there's, there's value in failing, there's value in growth. So yeah, I'm trying to focus on self compassion. And that's like, my, that's the thing I try to focus on, when I get hyper fixated on either perfectionism or, or the spiral of, you know, I've made a mistake, or I've messed something up and just moving on. Yeah, not not expending too much energy on it.

Miranda Moore 36:40

I went. So I was only diagnosed with ADHD within the last year. But I have spent like a lot of years trying to get various forms of psychiatric treatment for, you know, anxiety and depression or whatever. And so I did a lot of I did several years of just cognitive behavioral therapy with a therapist, and at the time, it was for anxiety, and then they kind of transitioned into depression. But I've found that since I've had like, the ADHD diagnosis, and I'm able to identify the habits that I was very critical of myself for, now knowing that they're part of ADHD, I'm actually able to I'm much better now that I'm a few years out of that therapy. I'm much better now about applying those lessons whenever I find myself struggling with something that I could attribute to the ADHD, like, whether it's procrastination, or I'm running late, or I just that's executive functioning, I just forget, or it's like poor working memory or whatever, I have found that I'm much more forgiving, and but it literally took knowing the diagnosis and knowing the reason for me to be able to put those into practice, because I don't know if I subconsciously knew that the diagnosis wasn't complete, or what but it was. Yeah. And so all those years of therapy are finally paying off after, you know, but but it literally took that label for me to understand not that I not that I use ADHD as an excuse, but it is an explanation.

Erica D'Eramo 38:12

Right. I, I totally agree with that. Like I really, that really resonates with me, because let's see, I was probably mid 30s, I guess mid to, yeah mid 30s. And for me, it just it took the it took like the good bad element out of some of my behaviors, and just made it much more like a not like a machine. But for my engineer brain, actually, that kind of is how I was able to look at it, right. And I love to cook. So cooking in the kitchen. I just started to think of my brain like, hey, I've got this one knife that is really good for this one job. And I've got another knife that is really good for another type of job. And that's okay they're, I don't judge the knives like this knife is better than this knife. Like they do different things well, and they can do those other things. They just don't do them as well. And it just became how do I work around this and set things up so that I can be more effective. Having a key that or having a hook that I put my keys on the same key, the same hook every single day, every single time has become something you would think it's so little right but that those little things that you realize when you have ADHD that they can make your life so much better so that every time you're trying to get out the door, you're not frantically searching for your keys, having the same place for my passport every single time. And if it's not there, I start to freak out and panic because I just know how important that is. And other people are like you'll find it you'll find it and for me that structure has become really important and I don't know why it took three and a half decades to figure out that hook for my keys was as valuable in my life as it was.

Miranda Moore 40:04

My mom used to tell me when I was growing up, you know, she, it's just used to be like, because I was super messy as a kid. And so she would just say, like, you know, a place for everything and everything in its place and like I can hear her voice in my head every time I'm like, the house is a disaster. I just like I can't find anything like I just don't have the kind of cognitive real estate to dedicate to, to anything's location. That, yeah, I hear her voice in my head when, when I have those moments. But yeah, it's just simple things like that. That like, it sometimes takes, at least me, it also takes me a while to sometimes come to that conclusion. But like, the real estate it frees. So you're just not constantly like, it's just, it helps my creative process a lot.

Erica D'Eramo 40:51

Yeah, I had always characterize myself as a messy person. And I, that has really changed over the years in that mess will accumulate around me. But I've recognized that for me mess is a big hindrance for me getting stuff done, it just creates like a static in my brain, that that's not good. So I'm trying to think when I finally 20, it was around 2012, I think I hired a professional organizer to come help me unpack boxes. And I just thought like, this is looming, I'm by myself, I'm on my own, I need help. So I hired an organizer. And I'm going to give a shout out to The Clutter Fairy in Houston, because she understands a lot about neurodivergent folks, particularly ADHD, and how to how to work together. And it was some of the best investment I've ever made in my life was having an organizer come and help me create a place for everything. And every time I would get overwhelmed, or like, you know, going through boxes of high school memorabilia or whatever, and I'd get like hyper focus, there was somebody there to gently and compassionately kind of get me back on track and set intervals and do all those things like set manageable goals. And it really paid dividends just like continuously. And so if there's anyone who is thinking about it, definitely recommend looking into it. If you've got the funds to spend an organ... like a professional organizer, interview them make sure that it's a good match. But for me, um having somebody who understood how ADHD worked, and could help me build a build my environment to work with my brain it was just invaluable.

Miranda Moore 42:44

Yeah, I don't like I've always really enjoyed organizing, I've always been good at it. I just don't ever follow through. And so, but whenever it's just me, like, if I had like an office where I can close the door, it's just like, you know, I lived by myself or whatever, it wasn't a big deal, like, you know, but it was when, yeah, my fiance and I moved in together, and he, you know, all of a sudden, I had this other variable, and he had his own ways of doing things that, you know, we had a lot of talks about how, like, No, I just need to create these organizational systems. And then, you know, I'll be okay and like how crucial that was just to my well being. And now it's, it's funny, because, like, we just moved a few months ago into this place, and he, you know, I put in a lot of time just kind of organize everything, like, you know, to exactly where it should go. And then I'm terrible at following up, but he's really good about following up. But he was also like, this time around he was also, this is like the third place I think we've been in since we moved in together. And he's now figured out that like, he'll just kind of pay attention to where I put things and then if I forget, you know, or whatever he forgets and he'll just, he'll later go back and like kind of help maintain that and I don't have to ask him to do it. I'm just like, it's such like a like a lift off of like my shoulders or whatever. And yeah, but having a partner who sort of intuitively understands that has been like a godsend. We had to have like a couple of like very direct like, you know, when we were moving like okay, no, I need systems like for things to go in certain places. And that is romantic because before he was just like a bachelor I think you know, he had like a pretty minimal sort of setup. He is definitely like a minimalist, I'm not in any way I'm definitely kind of a maximalist.

Erica D'Eramo 44:32

Laughing because this sounds very similar to my husband and I.

Miranda Moore 44:36

And so but he's, he's been very adaptable at you know, kind of adapting to my, my, my need for organization and all of the stuff that has to be organized. He's been very adaptable and understanding and patient about falling into that, but yeah.

Erica D'Eramo 44:56

Yeah, it's interesting now that I'm thinking now that we're in the process of unpacking boxes in a new house that has like far less storage space to work with, I'm realizing too that my perfectionism is certainly coming into play that I need to have the perfect setup, especially when it comes to things like pantries and kitchen where I spent a lot of time. That is my pastime that I have is cooking. And so the idea of just like putting things on shelves, is I can't, I can't actually handle that it has to have a system to it. Because I know that I will be dependent on that system working going forward, like, I know that it's gotta make sense where the flour goes, and it can't be on the other side from what like the baking soda is. So that part, getting over that hump of like, it has to be the perfect system. That's where I'm at right now in my unpacking phase.

Miranda Moore 45:51

Part of me having my own office is not just for the writing, which is obviously really important. But it's also like, my hobbies are just very stuff oriented, like I sew I sew a lot of my own clothes. And so that just requires a lot of equipment and fabric and, you know, just materials and, and so it was I was sort of sharing space with my fiance's office, in the last place we lived in so it was like, you know, if I wanted to sit down and sew or whatever it absolutely could not be at the same time he was working. And you know, he teaches courses in addition to like, his day job, and so in those are online, and so there's definitely times when we, you know, needed the space at the same time, and it was just kind of frustrating to deal with at the time. But yeah, I'm also a big reader. And so I have a lot of books, and those just need a place to go. And they need to be organized in exactly the way that I want them to be organized and like fiance doesn't get it, he accepts it. You know, but but...

Erica D'Eramo 46:47

Yeah

Miranda Moore 46:48

I needed like the, I needed to take a lot of time and just develop this whole systems. But it's, it's, it's amazing what it's done for my just to clear my head to be able to make the space for the creative work that goes into into writing and reporting.

Erica D'Eramo 47:05

Yeah, I mean, it's funny, right? Because there's this idea that's easy to buy into that a lot of us are sloppy, or messy or lazy or disorganized. And yet, and yet, in a, in a way, it's kind of like an all or nothing, maybe that's, that's coming into play with some of that. Because if you look at certain elements of my life, they are just like hyper organized. And very, I, the lazy label was always interesting to me, because I've always felt lazy. And then at the same time, you know, I'm somebody who will work through the night on something, if it's important, needs to get done, will push through and do whatever it takes. So reconciling that kind of the, the light side, and the dark side has been, I don't know, complicated, probably a lifelong journey.

Miranda Moore 48:02

Yeah, I haven't figured out the answer either. Like, but but I get exactly what you're saying. Yeah.

Erica D'Eramo 48:07

Yeah. So you know, in terms of the pandemic, how is that you think affected any of this for you, you sort of talked about some of it with moving house, but a lot of that sounds like it wasn't directly related to the pandemic necessarily.

Miranda Moore 48:24

It was, well, it was just strange, because in my case, it was like, everything happened at the same time, but it wasn't necessarily caused by it. Like I know, like, just about every well a lot of people who were able to work from home then started working from home at the start of the pandemic, but it's like, I went from having a job to just having no job. And so it was weird, because I've always been very, like I've always needed that sort of, or not that I've always needed, I've always relied on the external pressure of, you know, work schedule, or bosses or whatever, to kind of organize my thoughts when I was unable to organize them myself. And without that, and being sort of left to my own devices, it was very much a struggle. I didn't know, like, if, if I wanted to remain in kind of the journalism news media industry, or if I wanted to try to transition to something else, because, you know, I just I put a lot of thought into that. And then I also was like, well, okay, I just love writing and I love journalism, and I love story craft and reporting and always learning something new. And so it's the one profession I've had that I've actually stuck with, because you know, I've done a few different things. It was always kind of looking for something that I didn't have and journalism is finally the one thing that it can change but also it is a process that I enjoy and can stick with long term. And, but the topic is always different. So it feeds that part of my brain that always needs something new. But I just the staff job just wasn't going to be healthy anymore in this environment that's really hostile to the journalist, the individual journalist, you know, the, I try to demarcate, there's like the industry and there's the practice. And so, the practice, the profession of journalism, I love with every ounce of my being, the industry is awful for people generally, for neurotypical people, it is especially awful for neurodivergent people and people with ADHD like me. And so my compromises was just like, well, how can I still do the profession without having to be a part of the industry, and you're never going to be fully, you know, away from the industry, but I just took the time to decide that, you know, freelancing was just the compromise, I was gonna have to make, just for my own mental health, and my emotional health, to be able to create an employment option that worked with my brain, and I, you know, I'm not saying I'm glad I was laid off, like, I'm still really bitter about it, but I, I, you know, at least I'm thankful for the opportunity to be able to reassess that, and I'm not sure I would have been, I'm not sure I would have gotten off the train on my own. And so the fact that I was forced off, yeah, but also like, so, you know, as a writer, and like a creative, like, I want to some, like, a lot of times when I want to work, and this is especially the just back to environment. This is especially the case, when we had our smaller place, and I didn't have my own dedicated space to work from, like, the before times, I would just like go to a coffee shop, like, you know, coffee shops are where a lot of writers meet each other, and like, other creatives meet each other. And, you know, and even in the little town we were living in before, there's a pretty big creative community, and you know, I'd be able to meet people like that, but all of that shut down. It just wasn't, you know, it wasn't safe anymore. And so for a lot of creatives and freelance creatives who rely on those informal spaces, you know, to collaborate and to meet each other and to get inspiration. You know, that's been taken away. And so we've had to find a lot of those online, which, you know, it isn't the same, but at least it's something and so yeah, so a lot of those spaces have moved online, and I've had to, to seek those out, which is also, you know, made it sort of easier to connect in a way because you can also, it's not just local writers, you can connect with people from all around the world. And, and so, yeah, just the environment and the network, and the way that they're intertwined has has changed a lot for writers. And other creatives.

Erica D'Eramo 53:00

Yeah. That informal space is also important for anyone doing kind of consulting or for, you know, just entrepreneurs, solopreneurs, that shared workspace environment can be really valuable. And not having access to that has been challenging. For me, for sure, and I haven't really been able to replicate that online yet. There's certainly communities there's like, you know, message boards, and chats, and all sorts of stuff that you can get involved in. But for me, as an introvert, even I really used to enjoy just going to a coffee shop and sitting amongst people, not even necessarily talking, but it just gave me a chance to kind of be in my head, but not be super alone. And, and being out of the house in it in a coffee shop also made me focus. Because like, this is work time. And when I'm done, and I pay my bill, or I get my last cup of coffee, and I leave, then work is done. And it kind of demarcated that for me. And so that's been more challenging. When it's in your bedroom, or it's, you know, in your kitchen...

Miranda Moore 54:17

Yeah.

Erica D'Eramo 54:18

...that goes away. It bleeds together.

Miranda Moore 54:20

For me with like, again, it gets into the all or nothingness to like, you know, I need to be able to compartmentalize, I need to know when it's this or that, because my brain has a really hard time shutting that off. And yeah, when everyone went inside, and never, you know, didn't come out again for a very long time like that became challenging, just that need to compartmentalize and being unable to do so because of physical constraints.

Erica D'Eramo 54:48

Yeah. So what type of kind of structures or environments or support have you found most helpful? Well, we kind of discussed this a little bit so far, but...

Miranda Moore 55:01

Um, I will say though that like before, any kind of like, you know, sort of solution or whatever therapy or anything like that could be effective for me, I had to regulate my brain chemistry, like through medical interventions, I had to find a psychiatrist, I had to get on ADHD medication. For me, that was the thing that like, made the difference between struggling to figure out what I wanted to do with my life, and like taking active steps towards like building a freelance career. Like, so for me, it was like, I had to get medical help, I had to find a psychiatrist. And I struggled a little bit at the beginning, because like, I landed on a psychiatrist, he said, he specializes in ADHD, and I thought that his diagnosis was very thorough. But his treatment was very inflexible, like, you know, and so like, the medications didn't work for me, he didn't seem very willing to, like adjust them. And so I just stopped calling his office and went through a few other, you know, kind of explored options and whatever and eventually stumbled upon, I don't know if it was like, the the algorithm found me like the the robots found me or whatever. But I found in my Instagram feed an advertisement for like a nationwide sort of telehealth provider for ADHD. I was like, eh, what do I got to lose, I can at least try them. And if it doesn't work out, then it doesn't work out and whatever. But I actually re... Actually, I saw that one of the nurse practitioners from the practice I was at before that I didn't like was affiliated with them. And so I actually made sure to reach out to them before I made the appointment. I was like, you know, I know that like this person works with you guys. I just don't want to work with that person I've already had an experience with them, it wasn't my favorite, I'd really rather have someone else. And they actually put me partnered me with, I think she's like a pretty senior kind of within the organization, nurse practitioner who has been brilliant, I adore her. And like, she really listens, and she takes into account sort of all of my individual quirks and, and needs and things. And so and we've, it's taken a few months, but I think we finally got on a regimen that has been working for me. And so but she was really flexible. And that was like the big thing is I wanted a provider who would listen in and adjust and change course if we needed to. And she's been that. So once I got my brain chemistry sort of evened out, then everything else, like I was able to, you know, get back into sort of being more proactive rather than responsive. Like I feel like in the past where I had a structure to rely on, I was very responsive to demands as they were placed on me. Whereas as a freelancer, I have to be very proactive. And so it sort of quieted my brain enough to where I'm able to do that.

Erica D'Eramo 57:54

Yeah. I mean, finding a provider that you trust, and is willing to work with you and, and be flexible seems really key.

Miranda Moore 58:04

Yeah.

Erica D'Eramo 58:05

Like really, really important. And, again, this is coming from privilege in some ways, not everyone has choices, or can shop around. But that's been my experience as well. That having someone who listens to me takes my, my concerns my observations seriously. There is just such a power differential between doctor and patient. There's an informa... information differential. And then also, we know that when women present symptoms, they're not taken seriously, they're not seen as being as objective. They're naturally seen as, like being more emotional, and all these all these complicating factors. So finding someone who takes you seriously, listens when you tell them that you seen a symptom, and that something's not working for you, seems really, really critical. I'm glad you found somebody that works well with.

Miranda Moore 59:02

Yeah, but again, it wasn't like necessarily the first try. And so it's very, like, when you find someone who like, okay, they believe you but they have like a very specific interpretation of what your challenges are and how you should treat them. And they seem inflexible on that. Like it's just it was, it was frustrating because you go back in your head and you're like, you doubt yourself, you know, you doubt yourself you doubt, you know, am I the person who's wrong when like, not necessarily it's just this person isn't a good fit. And, you know, it's I implicit there's also like a little bit of frustration there like you work really hard you research doctor if you find someone you know, maybe they work with your insurance or whatever. And then you just don't get along you, it doesn't work out and you're kind of back to square one and that's sort of intimidating and you know, disheartening and dismotivating and a lot of or demotivating in a lot of ways, and it's, you know, even there's, you know, you just have to keep going. It's unfortunate that, that it's so hard to find mental health care that like, you can be comfortable with, like, you know, it's it's frustrating. It's, there's so many challenges to doing that. But, um, but it's worth it in the end.

Erica D'Eramo 1:00:23

Yeah. Yeah, I totally agree. So I, I've not actually found the ADHD medication to be helpful for me. I actually just like, didn't notice a difference. So I ended up not pursuing that route, which is another area where it can just be super different for each individual. For some people, I find. I've hear... some conversations I've had with people, they've, they've kind of recounted trying different medications and having side effects that were too much for them, or they, you know, didn't like the way they felt. And so they've learned to, to live without the medication. And for some people, it's been really effective and really useful. So it kind of just seems like it differs from person to person, there's no like, right or wrong, better way to handle it. So. So right around the time that I figured out that I probably had ADHD. Around that same time, while I was working offshore, I started implementing a meditation practice. And I don't think they're related. I don't think I, well, I don't think I think I actually probably started meditating before, I had my aha moment and went for a diagnosis, but it came about because of this, they both came about because of the same reason that I was in this like, really rigid environment where I didn't have any control over even my natural functions like sleeping, or when you eat or anything like that, or even what you eat. And so I started a mindfulness practice at the time, and I had started, I tried meditating for years, and really struggled a lot. And never thought it was something that was right for me. And in that moment, I didn't really have a choice, like I needed something. And so even a three minute meditation could just kind of like, bring me relief, bring my, you know, bring my blood pressure down in these in these tough times. And it would help me fall asleep, when I would say, need to take a 20 minute nap, that's all the time, I would have to take a 20 minute nap. And so I started listening to sleep meditations that would kind of knock me out and get my brain to stop the like cycling, the running the rambling. And that has ended up being such a valuable practice for me in life, mostly because it's taught me to listen and watch my own thoughts in a way that can indicate when I'm starting to go off track. So it's even just noticing my own distraction, like it's given me a tool to work on, or a muscle that I'm working on to even notice when I'm distracted, which is something I didn't have before or even notice when I'm hyper focused. So I don't know what studies have been done on ADHD and meditation. But for me, it's almost like the medication that I have available, that does seem to have more of an impact so much that when I hear the I listen to guided meditations, I'm not such a great meditator that I can just like sit in silence for 20 minutes. That sounds like torture to me. And I did do it through like my yoga teacher training, you know, we would have like 30 minute silent meditations every day. And so I know I'm, I'm able to it just doesn't sound enjoyable. But as soon as I kind of hear the sound of the guided meditation, it's like a physical reaction occurs in my body. And that's been that's been interesting. That's not to say if medication works for you, you should go get it and don't rely on just meditation. But that's one thing that I have found to be really effective for me.

Miranda Moore 1:04:09

Yeah. I and one thing that's interesting is like, you know, I don't fully like, I don't believe in like, the woowoo stuff, like, I believe that food is food and medicine is medicine, and you know, whatever. I don't necessarily believe that. Like, you know, all these people who suggest like, you know, do this in your diet, and you'll just feel so much... like, whatever. But I did know, at least being on medication made me clear my head enough to where I could do things like meal plan and whatever, and just kind of those quality of life, adult things that I've always struggled with. And so just like I've even noticed to just like, eating better, and I'm not talking about like being perfect, I'm not talking you know, whatever. I don't buy into diet culture. I'm not talking about like, I don't track what I eat, but it's literally just like planning meals ahead of time. So I'm not grabbing fast food, like literally something that simple like being on medication has cleared my head enough to where I can do that. And even that has helped also just like being able to, like, I don't know, and just like, even, like, take care of like things in like a balanced way has also made me feel better physically, like mentally it's helped clear my head as well.

Erica D'Eramo 1:05:23

It's like those foundational enablers that kind of allow the other things to work more smoothly. Yeah, I feel like there are some fixes, there are some things that I change about my environment or about, you know, like tools that I put in place that fix a small thing, or make something in my life easier. But then there are those other things that just impact so many different aspects of my life. And are kind of multipliers of my well being.

Miranda Moore 1:05:53

Yeah.

Erica D'Eramo 1:05:55

I feel like nowadays, there's so much about ADHD on Twitter, on YouTube, TikTok all the kind of platforms. And probably a lot of advice, some advice is good, some is totally ungrounded. And I guess I should reiterate that us talking about our experiences today is just that, like it's this is not giving anybody, the intention is not to be giving any advice or, or any recommendations. Just to kind of humanize some of this some of this struggle and talk about some of the things that have worked and not worked for us. But I do feel like there's a lot out there. Is there anything that you found that doesn't work for you that you thought like, this was a no go.

Miranda Moore 1:06:43

Um, I know, like, I'm in a couple like ADHD support groups, on like Facebook and stuff like that. Where just like, people get together and talk about, like, what's worked for you who does this whatever. And a lot of the people who suggest like gamifying things, I know, it worked really well for you, like, I just, I can't like I, my perfectionism just gets the best of me, and it just ends up becoming more destructive than I think anything. It's more destructive than beneficial for me.

Erica D'Eramo 1:07:15

Yeah.

Miranda Moore 1:07:16

Anything that is too, like frilly or detailed up front, that sort of like, requires my attention that I would have otherwise focused on, like my actual work. Um, you know, if it like, takes away from that, like, you know, bullet journaling, super complicated, like formats, or like, you know, designs or, you know, anything like that, like, I just, I can't, because it, it is both too intimidating for me to want to be a part of, and then like, if I do have the motivation to try, it just takes all of the focus that I would, because focus is finite, I feel like like, I can't just focus on like, you know, forever on anything. And so, if it takes all my focus to just plan the tasks, rather than actually implement the ta.. and like do it, then it's just a non starter for me. But yeah, I also just need things that like, allow for flexibility. That's why you know, my system really isn't more complicated than just like lists, I just do a lot of to do lists, and I do a lot of po... Like, and I have, I mean, I'm a writer, so I have like, I'm very picky about notebooks, but I have, them like all over my house. And so if I am like in the kitchen, and I remember something like I have a notebook there, I can just like or a pad of paper, something I can just grab and like, you know, write. And then if I need to stick Post-its all over, I can do that. And so it's just pretty rudimentary, like I, you know, I wish I had like a more, I was able to describe a more sophisticated system, but it's literally just, you know, the thing that's worked for me has been the thing that's been I've been able to maintain for years, which I have a lot of trouble with. Maintaining any kind of practice for years, is just at the end of the day, make a list of what I want to do the next day. And every week, I kind of make a list of the things I need to do the next week, and just that's literally nothing more complicated than that has ever worked for me. Like I have to keep it super simple.

Erica D'Eramo 1:09:13

Yeah, I understand that. I'm trying to think if there's anything that I've tried that really hasn't worked, I mean, I know that there is. There's plenty of stuff that hasn't worked for me. Um...

Miranda Moore 1:09:24

It's also very ADHD thing to like, if this doesn't work, you just like push it out of your working memory and you just never remember it again.

Erica D'Eramo 1:09:30

Discarded. Yeah, not there anymore. I think that one thing I'm working towards which I is of questionable value, but was necessary at the time as an intervention was time blocking. I was having this feeling at the end of each day that kind of my day had disappeared from me. I didn't know where my time went. I was working across like multiple things at once and just flitting from one thing to another and so I've started trying to time block where I put it in my ca... I've sort of said like, how many hours, proportionally, do I want to spend doing X, Y, or Z? In a week. And at least carving it out, so I can see what it look... like a week, like that looks like and then at least I know, if I'm not working on that thing, during this time, I'm detracting from it, you know, or I need to kind of place it somewhere else. I found that I'm not sticking to those time blocks very well. But it has given me a lot more visibility to where my time is going. And I actually started doing that. Once I found that I wasn't sticking to the time blocking, I started tracking my time using this app called Toggl.

Miranda Moore 1:10:43

I've heard of it.

Erica D'Eramo 1:10:45

Yeah. And that has been absolutely fascinating. I, some days, I'm better than others about hitting the the like timer to track where my time is going. But what it's given me is a lot more. It's given me relief. When I look at what I did do during a day, just like that visibility of, okay, I didn't just squander this time. Like, even if I spent it surfing through Twitter or something or kind of going on a deep dive. At least I know where it went. And that has made me feel more in charge of my time. That more intentional I guess, even though it's backwards looking. And even the act of just hitting the Toggl timer or having it pop up and say like, do you want to record your time? Even that makes me think like, oh, what am I going to write in this box right now that I'm doing? Like, I'm just surfing the internet, or I'm like researching the history of Le Creuset, kind of like cookware, you know, whatever it is that I'm doing in that moment that has caught my attention, then I can write it down and just feel more in control. So that's been really helpful for me. But questionable success on the time blocking.

Miranda Moore 1:12:05

I tried Pomodoro method one time... reminded...

Erica D'Eramo 1:12:09

Oh, yeah.

Miranda Moore 1:12:10

...which I don't know, if maybe it wasn't the, you know, the actual proper way to do it. I just I couldn't do it like, I found that like, when it was time for a break, I was like, No, I'm not ready for a break, I'm in the middle of this, I can't whatever. And so I would ignore it. And I just...

Erica D'Eramo 1:12:24

Yeah.

Miranda Moore 1:12:24

...for me, it wasn't like, again, I don't know if it's like my all or nothing sort of thinking of my need to compartmentalize like, you know, I'm working or I'm not working, or I'm doing the you know, and I just like I didn't, you know, I just didn't, I don't know, I just cognitively couldn't get over the barrier of like, it's telling me I need to take a break, don't tell me what to do. Like, I don't want to take a break right now I'm in the middle. So I would just like ignore it. So it was just like, off the bat, like, first time I tried it, I was like, nope, and I just maybe, yeah, you may need to try it again, or something, but I'm just like, especially being medicated, like you, my mind doesn't wander as much anymore as it used to. And so that's like a big help. And I feel like the Pomodoro method works really well for people who have issues with their mind wandering. And for me, I don't know if it was just like, being a creative, where it's like, my issue is always sitting down to like, do it. It wasn't necessarily knowing what I had to do, or anything like that, it was just sitting down to do it. And so that's been ameliorated a lot by getting treatment. And so now that I can, like, I don't know, sometimes when I need to write, I just need to write for like, 10 hours straight, and just get it out. And then I'll like, not look at it for a week, and then I'll go back and, you know, look at it, or, like, I'll work on something else in the meantime, and then I'll go back to it or whatever, but I just need to, like, I don't like the division of time, you can and like I like the flexibility of if I want to just keep working through I'm gonna keep working through if I need a break, you know, I'll my body will tell me I'll need a break. And then I'll take it, but I just so those artificial kind of constraints where it's like, you work for this amount of time, and then you take a break for this amount of time, and then you sit back down again, like that just feels not productive for me. And the way that I work. Yeah, for somebody else it works great. Like, I have a friend who works great for like, she can't work without the Pomodoro method, you know, and so.

Erica D'Eramo 1:14:25

I found it really helpful in grad school, when I would have to do when I would have to especially for reading, like when I had many chapters to read and to get through and I would put them into my like, text reader that would read it to me and I do best when I'm, this is something I figured out I guess in grad school, when I can read the words on a page and listen to them at the same time. That's really helpful even if it's just like computer voice reading it to me. So page readers have been helpful and upping the speed also helps me a lot because I can get through it more quickly. I don't have to have sustained attention for quite as long. But it forces me to like, listen more closely. So so doing that, but I would look and see like even at 2x speed or whatever, 350 words per minute, I'm still looking at like seven hours of reading today that I have to get through on a weekend. And so that Pomodoro method was helpful for me not because it was saying, like, take a break now, but because it was giving me permission for some breaks. Because otherwise I would hit maybe two hours, and I just be like, I'm done. I can't do this anymore. And so it enabled me to kind of go for some long hauls, because it gave me permission to take a break. And I was like, okay, I know, I can get through 45 minutes, of really dry reading. I know I can, or whatever it is, like 20 minutes. So it gave me kind of more bite sized chunks. Otherwise, I would just put it off and have it looming, where I had to kind of pull an all nighter before before class, which is not good. So maybe in certain situations, it could, it could work for me, but but I agree once you're in flow, if you're doing something where you hit flow, like yeah, that's the last thing you want.

Miranda Moore 1:16:11

Yeah.

Erica D'Eramo 1:16:12

That precious flow state, like. Don't take it away from me.

Miranda Moore 1:16:16

Yeah

Erica D'Eramo 1:16:16

Yeah. Um, so I guess like, just to wrap do you have any last words of wisdom for anyone who I guess maybe thinks that they have ADHD or is struggling with this or even just people, even if they don't have ADHD, just attention spans are tough to come by these days. There's a lot out there distracting us.

Miranda Moore 1:16:40

Yeah, there is a lot. Um, and it's just and it's tough, because everything is so like, it's like our lives are in a pressure cooker right now. And I feel like we're kind of nearing the end, at least in the US of the we're not there yet. But we're really kind of inching closer to the end of the pandemic. So people are kind of getting extra antsy. So yeah, it's just tough. But I mean, my yeah, the only advice I can really give is just like, be gentle to yourself, like, be forgiving with yourself. Because like, we're all trying right now. And we're all human. And like, these demands that are put on us by like, whether it's work or you know school or whatever, like these are demands put on us by like, in like institutions that are not human, and they don't always account for humanity...

Erica D'Eramo 1:17:36

Yeah.

Miranda Moore 1:17:37

...in their requirements of us. And so, I mean, I don't know I just found a lot of freedom when I was able to decouple myself from these systems of, you know, capitalism and and whatever else that place some kind of moral value almost on productivity. Where it's like, if you just allow yourself the freedom to be human, I've found like, a lot has been lifted, emotionally, and my mental health was a lot better.

Erica D'Eramo 1:18:11

Yeah, I mean, for the end result too of being able to, like, produce these beautiful things, or these interesting things that at least, the contribution's not about just putting in the sweat, or the hours or some measure of number of words, or, you know, some, like arbitrary measure that we tie to our morality. It's really, to me the switch has been looking at what's most effective for what I want to get out of life, or what I want to put into life, and how can I be most effective in that, and that's when I realized, like, trying to tamp down the part of me that I associate with ADHD also tamps down the unique things that I bring, like that nonlinear way of thinking, my creativity. All the things that make me kind of are part of my identity and how I view myself that I can contribute to the world to move us towards a more just more equitable world. Like that's my goal. And so if I can be more effective by recognizing that, and being, like you said, being compassionate, why would I not do that? Right? That makes that makes no sense. Yeah. Cool. Well, thank you so much for coming and chatting. And this is also probably a nonlinear conversation. Just, I hope, I hope this was helpful. And for anyone interested in more information about, you know, living and working with neurodiversity, there is so much out there right now, on the internet. There's so many different support groups, there's, there are so many books to read. So if you think you might be in this category definitely, you know, look into that and perhaps get a diagnosis it can be, it can be life changing. And if you're interested in what Two Piers is doing and Two Piers consulting and our efforts to make workplaces more representative, more equitable or diverse, then you can find information about us at twopiersconsulting.com, or on any of the social media platforms, so Facebook, Twitter, Instagram and LinkedIn. And if you liked this podcast, like our podcasts, then please leave us a review or rating and check back for our next episode. Thanks.