In this episode, host Erica D'Eramo, a self-proclaimed introvert, is joined by guests Maryellen Roberson and Melissa Olivadoti, an extrovert and ambivert, respectively. We discuss the definitions of these concepts, as well as what they mean to us in our daily lived experiences. We also touch on the value of self-awareness and the benefits and costs of flexing beyond your comfort zone, particularly for leaders with a diversity of energy types on their teams. We close the episode by busting some myths and providing some recommendations.
Books that we mention in this episode are "The Introvert Advantage: How Quiet People Can Thrive in an Extrovert World" by Marti Olsen Laney Psy.D., and "Quiet: The Power of Introverts in a World That Can't Stop Talking" by Susan Cain.
Transcript Below:
Erica D'Eramo 0:05
Hello, and welcome to the Two Piers podcast. I'm your host, Erica D'Eramo. And this is Season Three. So today we're going to talk about introversion, extroversion and ambiversion. And we have some guests joining us today. So it's another two guest episode, which is really exciting. And I will be representing the introversion contingent today. But we've got folks to talk about extraversion in Hamburg version as well. So thanks for joining us for this next episode of the Tim Ferriss podcast.
So hey, thanks for joining us, Maryellen and, Melissa, we appreciate it. I you know, I put out a call to my network looking for people to weigh in, on this episode. And ironically, I said, you know, I'll talk about being an introvert and is there anyone who wants to talk about being an extrovert? And I, thankfully got responses from you both really quickly. And Maryellen offering to speak from an extrovert perspective, which I appreciate and Melissa, like raising my awareness about ambiversion and offering to speak about that. And then I edited the post and I was like, "Okay, I think we've got, you know, quorum I think we're good. Thanks, folks, for all the offers, because there's so many offers of support." And then they just kept coming. And I had to laugh because it was like such a perfect little, you know, clip of what life looks like in this in this realm. I actually had to turn off comments, actually. So thank you, so Maryellen, and you raised your hand as an extrovert, and you and I have worked together in the past. So I was super excited to work with you on this. And Melissa, you raised your hand is an ambivert. So, Maryellen, do you want to give her give us a little introduction?
Maryellen 2:11
Sure. Yeah. So my name is Maryellen Roberson, I, as you mentioned, we've worked together before, so I work in the energy industry. I am a chemical engineer by degree and have about 26 plus years of experience and petrochemicals, oil and gas and energy industry. But I'm a woman who works in a male dominated dominated industry, but I'm also an extrovert. So I'm happy to be here today and excited to be a part of this conversation.
Erica D'Eramo 2:47
Yeah, cool. And Melissa, thanks for like, you know, letting me know ambiversion exists. I really felt kind of embarrassed that I didn't even know that. So tell me, tell us about yourself. And you know, what, what made you realize you were an ambivert?
Melissa 3:05
Well, thank you for allowing me to raise the awareness. Because I didn't even know I was an ambivert was myself until I was in college learning about psychology because I have psychology undergrad. And so I'm a PhD by training. My name is Melissa Olivadoti. I have a PhD in neuroscience and started in research. And now I work in medical affairs in the pharmaceutical field as a consultant. So despite being an ambivert, which is kind of in the middle of being an extrovert and an introvert, I tend to talk all day long and interact quite a bit. But But yeah, so I ambiversion is not something that a lot of people know about. They you really only hear about these two archetypes of extraversion and introversion. So it's kind of interesting to be right in the middle and have kind of a social quota, if you will, and then want to go back and reabsorb all your energy after you've gotten some good social activity.
Erica D'Eramo 4:03
Yeah, I mean, that brings us to sort of like what are these labels even and what do they mean especially when we see ambiversion being defined as like either not extraversion introversion or some combination of that. So, um, so I you know, I pulled up the Merriam Webster definition of this just as like a reference point and for introversion. The definition of introversion is "the act of introverting" very insightful, um, this state of being turned inward or upon oneself or itself. That is, that's the primary definition and then it gives some, you know, background on psychology and the tendency of being, you know, predominantly concerned with obtaining gratification from one's own mental life. And they talk a little bit about Carl Jung and introducing those terms back in the 1900s and So, yeah, I guess that that is like the official definition. And maybe we can like go around the house and share what the official definitions are and then and then maybe speak to just like what it actually means for us and in our lives because I think it's a little different. So, Maryellen, how about for you what does extroversion look like for you?
Maryellen 5:21
Well, the Merriam Webster definition says a person whose personality is characterized by extraversion, just as insightful as the introversion. But then it goes on to say a typically gregarious and unreserved person who enjoys and seeks out social interaction. I feel like that's pretty spot on actually. I think that if you were to ask my children are the ones who are like, oh, yeah, Mom, you're totally an extrovert. And I'm like, really? And I think that they would resoundingly agree with the unreserved portion, and then the seek out social interaction, because they believe that I will walk up to complete strangers and just start having deep, detailed conversations that embarrass them greatly. So that might be too much information. All right. So there you go.
Erica D'Eramo 6:19
Now there's on the internet strangers too so there you go. You have acsess to all the strangers. And, Melissa, how about you?
Melissa 6:28
So the definition of ambivert is actually person having characteristics both extrovert and introvert. I'd like to think in my life, and I do believe that this truly is a spectrum that you can either be one side or the other, or somewhere in the middle. And my ambiversion is truly I if I don't get enough socialization, I notice it. And but my requirement for my social quota is not that high. So and it depends on sometimes it can flex, and depending on what I'm doing, the more activity I'm having, the more I can talk and the more I can be with new people before I hit my social quota and want to go back home. But usually, it's, I'd say about three, you know, three hours, four hours with people I love and no, two hours with people that are new. And I'm not an idle chitchat type person. But But yeah, so after that, I really like to go home and do things on my own, and recharge that way. So it's a little bit of recharge with both ways. And it just, you know, just a nice balance of both.
Erica D'Eramo 7:42
Yeah, yeah, I think that the interesting thing to me about the definitions sometimes, whether it's Merriam Webster, or like, just in pop culture is that they're often defined by like externally observable behavior. And yet, for me, so much of like, my introversion is really about like what's going on on the inside, because I'm, I think a lot of people are surprised when they find out I'm an introvert, like a self declared very far on the that end of the spectrum introvert, like, I think when we did Myers Briggs, or something in my MBA program, and they had us all line up by the different letters, like from our scores, I was literally like, in the clump all the way at the end. And yet, I'm not shy, and I'm not quiet. And I will certainly speak my mind. And so I think people get surprised, and then it just like, suddenly they're confronted with my burnout, or something. It's like, wow, what is going on? And it's really just like, what's going on on the inside? So when we talk about like, oh, you can learn to be an extrovert, like, Well, no, I can learn to mimic extrovert behaviors. Certainly, I can learn how to cope in like a world designed for extroverts. But I think you kind of like, you learn to survive in the environments you're in and you learn to hopefully thrive in them. But what's happening on the inside is probably still the same. You're still like expending energy at, you know, larger and larger amounts based on how, where you fall on that scale, and like how much social interaction you're having. So. So yeah, I would say that that's how like, the difference between how it shows up in the books or in conversation versus how it shows up in my life would be how about you guys? Like how does that resonate with you?
Maryellen 9:39
I think it does resonate. I think that for me, if I get too much of that time to just sit and be with myself. Like, my husband knows like, I look like a caged animal at some point and he is like, Okay, it's time we gotta get out. We gotta we gotta get you some interaction. It And I think especially with the work from home that has been so prominent over the last few years. And because of a lot of reasons we've biased, I bias towards working from home more for help to try to limit my my personal risk and our family's risk for exposure. Those days come by, and he's like, okay, let's, let's figure out a way to get out there and interact and get together in a safe way with small groups, because he can totally tell I literally, it becomes almost like a caged animal of sorts. And, and I think that it's a little exhausting for him. Because if I've had a day where I've worked at home, and he's at the office, and he's had that interaction, and he comes home, and I'm like, okay, okay, this is what I need. You know, he's like, okay, because he's kind of, he's probably more of an ambivert. And, and so I've just learned, I've got to, I've got to go out and do that for myself, I just have to go get that interaction that I need, or work harder during the day to try to get it in a virtual sense, so that I'm not losing it by the end of the day when he gets home, and it can be a quiet evening, instead of what I need, which is "Come On! Let's go!"
Erica D'Eramo 11:21
Isn't that funny, though, that like, through so much of my life, I've heard about how like I you know, introverts need to become need to learn how to become more extroverted. And yet, when the world flips, I don't know that we heard a lot of conversation about like, you extroverts you need to learn how to be more introverted. Now, you really need to figure out how to really get inside. So yeah, that's funny, how about you Melissa?
Melissa 11:52
So that was the funny part about the I've been working from home for 12 years now. And for a while it was, you know, remote work was not something that was the norm. So I had to find jobs where, or find positions, where they were open, that you could do work from home and do it well, and still connect with people, like face to face online, in a true way. And so when the pandemic hit, it was like, let's go, I'm ready for this. Having you know, luckily, I had a husband at home, who's fantastic. And so spending time with him was was a pleasure. And so I could get my activity from you know, our social time from him. But it wasn't a huge burden to stay at home and work from home, just like you will. So I, and on the Myers Briggs, it depends on what kind of mind space I'm in whether I end up extroverted or introverted, right, because I'm right smack dab in the middle. And it's I do have to expand my, you know, kind of pushed out introversion in parts of my job where I'm at a congress and we have five solid days from 6:30am meetings all the way up till 10pm dinners. And I have to make space for that extraversion and shove it all into a four or five day period. But on the same instance, if I've gone three or four days without any activity, I'm like, I think I just need to go to the grocery store and talk to the person who's doing the groceries because I need some of that. So I think a lot of that does depend on your situation. So I think it depends on where you're at for definitely for ambiverts how much you've gotten, how much socialization you've gotten to that point, or how much knee time you've gotten to that point, and then where you end up. But just like Maryellen, where if she spent too much time alone, she needs to go out and do things, if I've spent too much time with people can see it all over my like, it's almost like I shut down. And so we kind of keep a timer when whenever we go out to parties, well pre pandemic, basically. But it's like at three and a half, four hours, I give my husband the signal and it's like, okay, we need to get out of here. Melissa is done. Like she's hit her social quota, it's time to go because after that, it just goes downhill really fast. I either find a pet of that person and I spend time recharging with their pet or I go outside and I just sit and stare otherwise we'd leave and you know, usually it's earlier because my husband's a little bit more extroverted than I am so it's kind of funny that we end up you know, I it's very, very strong social quota.
Erica D'Eramo 14:47
Yeah, but you do show up right like that's the difference between you and me, whereas I usually politely decline. It's not that I don't think people but i do i I find that even with working from home like this is pulling from my social quota. I mean it's fun and it's enjoyable and I don't you know, dislike it and hanging out with people is still enjoyable to me, video conferencing is still enjoyable to me. And it is withdrawing from my bank, it's not you know, putting into my bank so so yeah, it's been that's been interesting.
Maryellen 15:28
I think for me, so you know, I've just recently become an empty nester as well in the last year, so during the pandemic became an empty nester. And part of how I got my social quota and interaction was my network of parents whose kids were doing the same activities and and now because we're trying to travel to go see that my kids well, my oldest just graduated, you'll know that Erica, because he graduated from your alma mater, but they were athletes in college, all three of them, you know, only two and, and I'm like, Okay, let's, let's get your schedule, so I can figure out where I'm going. And I can travel and go hang out with the parents and my kids are like, really mom? And I'm like, yes, yes, I want to I want to get there. I want to be there. And they're like, but I don't need you there for me. And I'm like, "No, it's for me. Really, it's for me!"
Erica D'Eramo 16:26
This is almost getting into a love language type thing.
Maryellen 16:30
It almost is. It almost it almost is because somehow I ended up with three kids who are introverts. My youngest two very strongly introverted. And Erica, we've talked about this before, to the point where my my older daughter, My middle child, is, you know, she, she and I have had to learn how to communicate with each other when she's just had enough. No, Mom, I can't anymore, I need time in my room alone. And, and
Erica D'Eramo 16:59
Mom, when you hear this, just know, there are other mother daughter, pairs out there who are also going through it. And I love you!
Melissa 17:11
knew that you have rubbed off on her so that if she has to turn on her extraversion, she knows how because I learned about extraversion by being say in line at Disneyland and my mom would talk to the person in front of us in person back at us. And that's how I learned to ask questions of strangers that, you know, you probably taught her how to turn it on.
Maryellen 17:31
She's learning still she is that one. My older daughter is the one who she is just so strongly introverted, she's getting better. She and by better not that that's a character flaw. But she's learning that, that introversion it, she has to figure out how to overcome it in certain certain situations, because especially now that she's on her own more, she's 21, she has to learn how to be comfortable advocating for herself. And as a young woman going into a STEM field, that's critical. And so it's been very difficult for her. Because I was always happy to step in and be that advocate for her. And she was to some degree happy. So it has I think she's she's evolving in that space. And I'm learning to step back in that space to give her what she needs. But the bigger thing is that, I guess my bigger point was that, like, I'm trying to figure out how to continue to get that interaction and engagement and, and and how do we get involved and we're doing more in the community because I don't have that network that I was readily involved with on a regular occasion. And I've just, I'm having to step it up and my kids are like, can't you just dial it back mom and
Erica D'Eramo 18:50
Is there like a support group for like parents whose kids were athletes, and now there's no meets to go to? Probably
Melissa 19:03
Extraversion social networks.
Erica D'Eramo 19:09
Now, I hope though, that you know, as we certainly as hardcore introverts learn how to mask right, we learn how to advocate over time, we learn how to recharge, and how to, like adapt and live in a world that is, at least in the United States, very much kind of geared towards extroverts. And extraversion tends to be like, celebrated as a positive social norm. I do hope though, and this is some of the topics we're going to discuss in this podcast episode today. I do hope that also by raising awareness amongst the people who are in decision roles in leadership roles and the people who are kind of forcing that extra verted framework in the world, hopefully those people grow in awareness and learn how to better access the thoughts and voices of the people in their teams and in their networks who are introverted. And I think that there like, there are ways to do that. But I mentioned like in the US, it's very extrovert oriented, in my opinion, but for those of us who have, like, traveled and lived abroad will know that like, that's not the case in every country. And it's not even the case in like every town probably right, there's like little microcosms. And I think we sort of get used to it, especially in the media, just like all of these portrayals of what the world looks like with that extraversion lens, we take it as the, just the given norm, and don't even realize that anymore. And then when you go abroad, or, you know, to perhaps a culture like in Japan, you know, that extraversion is seen differently, or I think, you know, parts of parts of Europe, certainly, it's, it's treated a little differently. The loud American is. There's a trope there, right? Yeah. So
Melissa 21:17
yes. And in my industry, it tends to be extroverts that make it up the ladder. Even if you look at CEOs across the board, they tend to come from a sales background, and there's no bigger extrovert than a salesperson. And so they tend to set the tone. Now in medical affairs, where I'm at we we may have some more ambiverts, or slightly introverted people, but in general in pharma leaders tend to be extroverts. And so that that can be definitely hard when you have teams and you're doing workshops. At the end of the day, everyone wants to go to dinner, and you're just
Erica D'Eramo 21:57
Yeah, or happy hour.
Melissa 21:59
Yes. Maryellen's like,
Maryellen 22:03
Those are the sessions that, I live for those types of sessions. But I do think that it being female and a... man, this gets into some gender norms, to which Erica and I've had a lot of conversations around it. Even as an extrovert, I still find myself struggling because that that unfiltered version that you get of me sometimes, because of cultural norms and differences, and differences, I still have to figure out a way to temper that enthusiasm, because because you're just too much, sometimes I'm just too much. And that's the nicest way to put it. So, especially working in some international and environments. And Erica, we've had lots of conversations about this over the years, I know but which is a whole separate lens. But I do think that even extroverts, while I will really agree wholeheartedly that it's probably the system, especially in the US is built for extroverts to move forward faster, because we we prize we value those, those characteristics. Typically, I think that as a woman and an extrovert with a very strong voice, I still am just too much sometimes for people even in that situation for good and bad, which is a whole separate conversation. But yeah.
Erica D'Eramo 23:24
You know, I said to my husband the other day, and even as an introvert, I said this, that I you know, I often get that too, right? 100% that I'm just too much. And I told him you know what, though, like, I feel like I'm like fish sauce. I love fish sauce. It's not for everybody. It's intense, you know, takes time to create, like a really complex fish sauce. But I love it. And I'm so glad it exists in this world. And, you know, it's not for everybody, and I'm okay being the fish sauce, like a little bit goes a long way. You know, and that's good. I would, for me, I'd prefer to be the fish sauce rather than the, I don't know, dry toast or something that like, is amenable to everybody. Not that there's anything wrong with dry toast and people that are amenable to everybody. I'm just saying it's just not I wasn't built that way.
Melissa 24:16
That's your self expect acceptance, right? Know thyself. I think introverts are really given a bad rap a lot of times, almost like they're somehow a little bit shady that they're up to something that they don't want to be out and about with other people that they have some aversion to socialization and that's, we know that's not the truth. And also, you know, even if you're in the middle, understanding your social quota or even if you're an extrovert understanding your needs to make sure they're met because that's, that's when you get you know, if you have, you may end up with self shame for not being social enough, or you may end up with frustration for not getting enough socialization if you're on the extraversion or not knowing your social quota, and then all of a sudden getting grumpy and nobody knows what's going on. You know, having that self acceptance, knowing you're fish sauce, and that is fantastic, you know, like, knowing yourself and appreciating yourself is half the battle, I think.
Erica D'Eramo 25:16
Yeah, I mentioned when we were kind of prepping for this episode that I don't, I don't really find it that helpful to just focus on the label for the sake of the label. Especially when we're talking about a spectrum. The only reason that we would want to talk about this topic, in my opinion is, in order to be more effective in the world, like there's not a right or wrong to me, it's just about, like you said, understanding ourselves so that we can be more effective in the world that we're operating in. And so that we can do the things we want to do and get the things we want to get and accomplish the goals we want. But also, again, raising awareness about how it's working for other people so that we can also kind of help them adapt as well or help meet their needs.
Maryellen 26:06
Well, and we talked about this in the prep session, Erica, right. And Melissa's, you know, for me as a people manager, who's an extrovert and working in an international team, so I've just changed jobs. My previous team, I had a very large team, and full of Trinidadians, which culturally can be more introverted, there's a cultural bias, to not raise your hand and not speak up. And I had some amazingly talented individuals in my team who were just quiet deliverers as the way I would describe it. And it really stretched me
Erica D'Eramo 26:39
Silent running,
Maryellen 26:40
Silent Running, it really stretched me as a people manager, because I had to learn how to listen differentially, and how to encourage them as a number of them as introverts, to be comfortable to open up to me and share with me the things that they weren't comfortable sharing in a wider audience, so that I could advocate but also not allow them to be lost to make sure that they felt valued. And it was a huge learning for me as a people manager, because, you know, one of the guys who worked for me was so, so sweet. He is like, you're a boss lady, and you're our bull in the china shop, and he loved describing me like that. And if you could throw the Trinidadian accent in, it just it adds to it. But I had to first build a level of trust with them that I was advocating on their behalf. And I wasn't letting them get lost. But it was really a stretch for me, it really made me be a bit more introspective about how I lead as an extrovert and make sure that I was bringing my introverted staff along with me so that they didn't feel undervalued. And that even though they were silent runners and quiet delivers, that that was very valued, that they were very valued. And that that that the way that they did their work, didn't get lost in the shuffle. I don't know if that makes any sense or not. But I think that that's a value in what you were saying, Erica, is, is whether you're an introvert, an ambivert or an extrovert, how do you look inward enough and understand yourself enough so that you can help facilitate other people being what they need to be in achieving what they need to achieve at work as well? Or in their personal lives, too? Yeah.
Erica D'Eramo 28:20
And we'll talk about some details on that. But first, I want to give the Trinidadian culture it's due and say that they also know how to throw a party. I can't keep up with my friends from Trinidad when it comes to. Yeah, having a good time. So I will give them that. But again, it just shows up differently in different cultures, right. Yeah, in different places. So we, we kind of, I wanted to talk a little bit about the topicality of this right now. I mean, we're recording this episode. In August, it'll and it'll probably publish relatively soon. So towards the end of summer, we're kind of approaching the end of summer and entering into the fall. And I feel like this is a time of flux and change. And I, my perception, my hypothesis is that introverts and extroverts are at different places, like different as we like, enter into the cooler, darker days, like different things going on. So I'm curious how you guys are, are preparing for the seasonal change, if at all, I guess, Maryellen, you're in Texas, so maybe I'm overestimating what seasonal change looks like. But so, Melissa, how about you do like, how does it How does it feel for you to do you find it impacts like extraversion introversion? There's any and you know,
Melissa 29:50
I, I do find that it impacts our business a lot, because a lot, at least for consultants happens in Q4. And so we're ramping up. We are ramping up to full bore until we hit the holidays and everything stops. And so we've spent a lot of time in our business, you know, meeting new clients and starting projects that they need to get done at this quarter. And I try to make sure that those meetings are effective, efficient as an ambivert, I don't really want to spend more time on the phone than I need to. And so I've been trying to be really good about agendas, especially if I'm talking to my people you mentioned, you know, management for different types of people. So if I'm talking to my team, our team meetings are, you know, are not super long, I make more time for people who locked like to talk for my introverts, I try and make them really short meetings with that are agenda based, so that it's not a dread of having to sit on the phone for a long time. And also building in that time for people to have quiet time to get their work done. Because sometimes it can just be so interested to have meeting after meeting after meeting. So it's just it's ramp up time for us. And so it's like buckle up, summer has been a little bit slow. Now it's time to put the foot on the gas and stretch that social code a little bit for my, my group because my group in medical affairs tends to be kind of either ambiverts or introverts. So have to adjust for that. And the changes in seasons. And, you know, that kind of thing. I mean, I personally, I love the changing seasons here because I live in Vegas, and it is hot, hot, hot. In the summertime. It's like being in a convection oven. So as soon as fall hits, it's like we can be outside we can do more, you know. So it's it's really lovely. I can get more me time outside and be in nature, which I love to do. So I can at least recharge easier in the fall.
Erica D'Eramo 31:50
So yeah. Yeah, that a lot of that resonates for me. How about, you, Maryellen.
Maryellen 31:57
So I think that what you started describing in the beginning, Erica is really where I'm at. So we're I know that I'm headed into that low. I've had, you know, activities during the summer, we've done some vacation I went to I got finally start traveling again. So I went to UK. Been back had a couple of workshops for work. And now I know that things are going to be settling down. And so I start making plans like I'm making plans for for when I'm doing this parent groups or the holidays, even and I'm already trying to figure out how to get everybody together and do stuff and what are we doing and when and my kids are like, Mom, when we come home, we just want to chill, like we need downtime. And I'm like, oh, but we can do this. And we can do that. And how about we? And they're like No, no. And so for me it's it's a bit of a balance because I do feel that that that little bit of a fall flop especially because I've changed jobs just in the last couple months and I don't have that same level of interaction. And then I don't have anybody to do an activities at the house. I started looking for those things that are going to get me out and and get me in the middle of stuff. And and I look to the holiday season as the way to fill that void and end the year with that bad energy. And, Melissa, based on what you described, I can envision if now is your go time that you probably use the holidays as "okay. Let me use that as my downtime my ramped down by by cool off period." And I'm like, "Yay, holiday parties. Let's go."
Erica D'Eramo 33:33
I... I feel like yeah, you and I are probably like inverted on that. Because I love the summer. But I do feel like there's just especially here in Maine. So I'm kind of the opposite in Maine. Because the winters are so long and you're inside so much throughout the winter, there's just this pressure to like be outside and doing things. There's also no air conditioning really up here. So you're just like hot all the time. Going, going going. There's lots of like, outdoor activities, get togethers like rafting up the boats together, which is all super fun, and you don't want to miss out on any of it. And also, I just end up pushing past probably what my like, quota should be just because I feel like I need to get it all in the summer. And so when the days start to cool off and the and they get a bit shorter, I just feel like the pressure come off of that a little bit. And I start to yearn for like nesting, you know, like, I can't wait till we have some fires in the fireplace. But he's just like curl up inside and have that like home body space and it's comfortable and cozy and and safe and protected. Whereas now like the house is just really warm. Like you can see I'm sweating right now. So I turn the fan off because I don't want the background noise but yeah, it's so for me Yeah, I think I'm kind of like by the end of summer I'm always sort of on my like introvert burnout and I'm ready for the fall days to come and the darker period and then I get like, when the holidays come I get really like button down the hatches. i Yeah, but they can be a little overwhelming for me sometimes. Yeah. So I think we've kind of talked touched on some of the workplace implications, but I'm, I mean, for you guys how you mentioned happy hours and sort of like dinners out in meetings and stuff. Would you say there's any other kind of workplace implications? Maybe Melissa? Like what what do you see for the introvert extrovert? ambivert. Overlay.
Melissa 35:54
I mean, I think in this is kind of true of a lot of our society that we don't always understand each other. And there tends to be a push pull, at least in my industry, and sometimes in social circles to where extroverts will really want to engage. And introverts tend to, you know, if they, if they don't, or they've had enough, then it's almost like a push pull. And so in, depending on who is around you, and what you're planning and say you're planning, like, like we said, workshops, I think it's important for us to, if we are leaders to talk to our direct reports to understand them better, are they are they an introverted, they an ambivert, they an extrovert, how if they're an ambivert, how much how much extraversion they get during their day, and then we might be adding on to that more if we're putting them into a situation, say, for us like going to a conference or going to a meeting where there's going to be a lot of people around do we need to be sensitive to that give them wall steering time. So I think understanding our teams and understanding ourselves and also communicating ourselves up and say, This is a lot for me, I'm gonna need a break to just sit down and stare at a wall for a second. It's not something we do usually in the workplace. And so I think that that there's a lot of room for growth, there's a lot of room for education on who we are, and that, you know, none of it is bad. It's just the way we are and and to build in optional things so that if you have a break, the extroverts can go chat, and the introverts can go sit quietly, and or the ambivert can choose one or the other. Yeah, so we're not creating too much conflict in somebody's having to stretch outside of their comfort zone, or to lack something that they really want or to have that push pull marks each other to to be in a room together to get things done and to work together in the best way possible. And I think also, elevating voices, making sure that it's possible for people who don't like to speak up in meetings, like Maryellen mentioned, there's ways that we can potentially do that if we educate ourselves, maybe we're collecting information before we go into a meeting or prepping, and then allowing each person to have time to talk rather than, than the loudest person in the room, having all the say, because there's so many times where either people are not comfortable speaking up, or maybe they're introverted, and they they're just done. They're not going to say something, and that that's a loss for our teams for new ideas. So maybe making room for people who have different styles of communicating and gaining their energy, depending on the activities we're doing.
Erica D'Eramo 38:45
So there's two, two things I wanted to touch on there. One is that like, the idea of getting to know your team, might also require like asking that question in a different way. Because for you and me, like we know ourselves, and I don't have any shame about my introversion, and I have I have to educate people a lot when they're like, no, no, no, no, you're not an introvert. And I'm like, Oh, you think I'm being modest? Or I'm like, insulting myself. I'm not. That's, like, you're putting that on me. That's your stuff. You can own that. But I could see that somebody might not want to like, or might not even realize that they're an introvert. I mean, I was like, in my late 20s, before I had a therapist, say like, oh, yeah, because you're an introvert and was like, Oh, I am not like, Oh, honey, read. Here's some books. Here you go. Yeah. And I realized, like, Oh, I am an introvert. So like asking, you know, like, how do you recharge? Do you like a lot of one on one time? How best do you communicate like what kind of meeting styles do so like asking around? Not that you need to be diagnosing anyone on your team, but I think just recognizing that some people might not be as far on their journey,
Melissa 40:04
They may not recognize it as much. And our industry has actually done quite a bit of that. And it was just in the last five years, I've seen a lot more teams doing personality tests and bringing them together and saying, This is who I am, this is the way I communicate, this is the way I recharge. And I think that's very powerful. To educate ourselves on who we are. And, you know, I need to, I need to change my way of communication with different people because they, you know, learn differently, or the way their brain works is different than I am, I think that maybe, you know, perhaps helping people, like you said, with their journey to educate themselves on what they're like, and how they how they function.
Erica D'Eramo 40:45
And like you're not in, like you said, we're not doing this, because this whole narrative of like, well, you just need to learn how to toughen up, or you just need to get over it or whatever. Like, oh, well, okay. I don't know. I don't I don't agree with that. But even if that's what you think it's really about, like how, what is best for the team and functioning as a team and, and like Maryellen, like you said, you want access to the those people you want access to their talent. That's why you brought them on the team, you want access to their ideas, and like brainstorming best practice they've shown right just because of biases, because of introversion extroversion, because of all these different factors, you get the best, most creative brainstorming when you write down your ideas separately on a piece of paper, and then you put them into the room and you can't get it you know, you're not filtered out by anchoring bias and all those things. Yeah. Maryellen, what are you?
Maryellen 41:39
So, a couple of things? I just want to pull on that just a little bit. Yeah, so one of the best managers I've ever had, who challenged me the most as a manager was the first leader I had that said, Maryellen, I want you to be a team lead, be a people manager, I think you're gonna do great at it. You know, I've done a lot of informal. And his first bit of guidance to me was, and Erica, you'll remember this, because we weren't at the same company, we went through a phase where we all did the color wheel personality, analysis, right?
Erica D'Eramo 42:08
I'm a red.
Maryellen 42:09
Right. But so but the big thing is, is that his his first bit of advice to me was, you have to understand your people, you have to think about who your people are, and how to engage them individually. And you're good at that. But we need to help you be better. And he helped me because of the way he said it for me, and the fact that I'm an extrovert, and I was like, Yes, I'm gonna do this, I'm gonna engage my people, I'm gonna go after it, I'm gonna do this. But, but that encouragement was good, because it was about acknowledging where your people in your team are and who they are, and not trying to make them into something that they don't want to be. And then, at the start of the pandemic, I, I was put in a little bit of a different role. And my team size doubled. And I had, I had a large group of people who reported to me, and only a couple of them in Houston and everybody else in Trinidad, and because of the pandemic, we weren't traveling. And I had to build a team that learned to work together with cultural differences and norms. And that, that, that training, that coaching from that older manager a long time ago, was really helpful for me. And this is where I think that the virtual workplace is actually helpful to balance it a bit. Because we had to learn to use virtual tools. So I used a virtual whiteboard, we use a tool called Mural. I don't know if you guys have ever used a mural board. And I learned that my team, because most of them were introverts, and I talked about that before. They didn't want to speak up at a meeting. So what I would do is I would build out a mural board and say, in our in our discipline meetings and say, Okay, here's what was we set our top as we sound our center priorities for the coming year, we decide what are the things that we really need to work on as a team together? What are the things we need to work on individually, I would build it out, I would introduce the topic to it. And then I would leave it alone and let them anonymously anonymously go back in and fill it out later. And I found that I could still get the engagement that I was looking for, but I could give them the space to come back. And again, it's about learning how to get meet your own needs, but also meet the needs of your, the team that you're working with. And I think some of these virtual tools that we have at our fingertips today actually help in that space to kind of equalize it a bit. So it doesn't feel quite so bias towards introvert extrovert versus introvert but that maybe that's just me and my own bias are hoping, maybe wrongly that I'm doing a good job of keeping it balanced. But But I tried very hard to use those tools to make it a safe space to go in on your own and be thoughtful and because that's what they needed, right. And I found that when I did that I got a lot better feedback. And we ended up with goals and objectives for the team that just felt more reflective of what they thought was what needed to be worked on. And then I had better confidence and then we worked better together. I tried to force like virtual happy hours online and I had themes, we had crazy hats. We did crazy shirts. Oh, yeah, it didn't. It didn't work. It didn't work.
Erica D'Eramo 45:18
Yeah, I mean, yeah, I get that. I think there is often some resistance, like there's a desire. There's a desire from some people, I think, understandably, who thrived in the old way of doing things who succeeded in the old way of doing things, it fit them, that paradigm worked for them. And they, you know, went up the ladder in terms of leadership. And so there are still many people that feel, you know, you keep hearing like, oh, we have to be back to face to face, we have to get back to like, chatting at the watercooler. Like you can't, you can't replicate that. And I I'm not gonna, like totally disagree with that. I think there is something about things, you know, like, spontaneous conversation that generates ideas. But I also think that that I've been on teams that were scattered all over the world, even pre pandemic, that had a great dynamic, and we just despite being across different time zones, because we leveraged technology, we could just like jump on Slack and be like, Hey, I see you're on. Did you see this thing in the news? Like, did you end up watching that Love Island episode last night or whatever, you know, like, people that started to come about when the technology is leveraged and accepted, and we don't just like poopoo it because it's not the way we did it before. And I hope that, I really hope we can kind of get past some of that and not say like, this is good, or this is bad, but rather, this is effective. Like this just is effective. And can be if we don't resist it.
Melissa 47:08
I think it depends on your not only your team dynamic, but what you're doing? Yeah, because I had a job where I was, you know, I was working from home, but my boss wanted me in every two to three weeks, and I would sit in a cubicle, on video calls in the office, traveling, and so but I have to say, I even though I am not a super huge proponent of being in the office on a daily basis, I would say at least once a quarter was usually useful, because I feel that somehow being virtual 100% of the time, can sometimes dehumanize us a little bit. And having that opportunity to get together in person where your guard is down, you're a little bit more comfortable, you're meeting people in a common space, I feel like there's a lot to that, where it's not so hyper focused on socialization, where you can have short bits of time to spend together. But in the same instance, like I get so much more done at home, I don't have intrusions all the time, I don't have somebody knocking on my door, I you know, like, it definitely helps me as an ambivert. And then I can reach out as I need to. I definitely miss seeing people right now since I'm not traveling. But at the same time, what we did in our teams was we did kind of social activities that were more focused on getting to know each other rather than more idle chitchat. So let's do a trivia game where we talk about someone's interests and see how much we know about each other. And then we're learning about each other, or we're talking about something fun that we're passionate about. And then we're getting to know each other on a deeper level, virtually exactly like virtuals can sometimes be a little bit hard to get to that deeper layer. And I think those those tend to be very fun. And it's easier to connect with people. And you're in your own home. So it's, you know, a little bit more comfortable to, but so I think it depends on what you're doing, who you're doing it with. And because some teams work really well in person, but also other teams like us, we just jam out on our work and meet when we need to meet. And it works really well to be at home. And we almost never get together because we're working on lots of different projects. And so there's really no you know, maybe to get together to share information with each other is helpful. But other than that, other than best practices, we just kind of get our stuff done and keep going.
Erica D'Eramo 49:53
Yeah, I mean, there are plenty of jobs out there that legit just can't... I mean, you know, having worked offshore that job can't be done from home, there's a reason they make you stay on the boat for 28 days at a time. And those kinds of environments, especially like rotational roles, where you are living with those colleagues day in, day out, you're eating breakfast, lunch, dinner together, you are like socializing after dinner, or going back to your desk or doing or there is really like no escape. And sometimes most people don't get their own cabin. So you even have people in your space, like, while you're sleeping, there is like, no escape. There's no escape. And, yeah, so when we talk about, like, work from home, I think I want to acknowledge that that like, you know, it's a privilege that I have to be able to do this. And when I didn't have that, for me, it really like for several days after getting home from a hitch, I had to be like, you know, decompress time, it was almost like, you know, after being exposed to like a radioactive source, like have to go through a full cleansing whatever, like I need a cleans to like return to the normal world. So. So yeah. Did you have any other thoughts, Maryellen,
Maryellen 51:23
It was just funny, as Melissa was talking, I was thinking about because I mentioned, I was like, I tried to do virtual happy hours, and, and all this other stuff that you know, with, with themes, and, and the one that was the most successful you were talking about, when you give each individual a chance to kind of talk about themselves, the one that was the most successful was when we went in, and we had two truths and a lie. And we just went one by one. And, and it was virtual, because again, I was trying to do this across it. But it was it was a chance for people to have quiet and one person was talking at a time. But it was fun, because people came up with their two truths and their lie, and you had to the rest of the team had to vote and guess and, and but, you, I, I have a very, you know, it's been tough for me working from home. But I have figured out how to get my need for interaction met. I actually really love working from home. In a lot of ways, as long as I'm getting that, that, you know, I'm able to go do these workshops and travel from here to there. But what I did with my team, the other thing is I scheduled lots of one on ones, because I had very quiet... but it it kept my schedule, very busy. Like my husband was amazed. He's like, Oh my God, you're on the phone all the time. But that was how I made my days bearable. Right working from home. But it helped me feel connected to my team. But I think it all just goes back to you've got to understand what the people who you work with individually need and what you need, and be able to say that out loud and kind of own it. You know, Erica, can you talk about, you know, that's somebody else's thing, not yours, they can't put that on you. But it's very powerful to be able to be comfortable enough to create an environment where your the people you work with can say this is what I need. And this is how I need you to interact with me. And for you to do the same. And I think that's the bit about virtual work that has actually improved a bit is that we're getting a little I don't know, maybe I have a bias around it. It just feels like everybody has tried to figure out a little bit better how they have to interact in order to meet their own needs and meet the needs of other people. I don't think that's a bad thing.
Erica D'Eramo 53:41
Yeah I think it's a good thing.
Maryellen 53:43
I think the last two years. I'm sorry to talk over you. I think it's made me a better I think it's made me a people manager, a better people manager though.
Erica D'Eramo 53:54
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I totally. Yeah, I think I'm giving you a hard time. We'll always talk over each other in a three person podcast episode. So um, I think some of that too, though. And maybe I'm out of line saying this Maryellen. But I think part of that of you learning to adapt so much is that, speaking as a woman working in a male dominated industry, you're always learning how to adapt, like you're always having to figure out how to operate in this environment and how to adjust and be more effective in ways that other people maybe don't have to think about as much. And so, you know, just having seen you throughout your career, I think it makes total sense to me that you are also now figuring out how to be a better manager in terms of introversion and extraversion and supporting your team and using adaptive technology to you know, cross international borders and and connect. So yeah, that. Yeah, that's my thought.
Melissa 55:05
Well you clearly care about your people, right? I think that is a huge motivation in this caring about them wanting to be at their best. I think one of the common misconceptions in introversion extroversion scale is that we either have the same way of recharging whether it be you know, being a big personality, a big group as an extrovert, or being staring at a wall or reading a book as an introvert. And there really isn't a whole lot of color around that in our culture and social discourse about what it means for you to recharge and how you get your energy and that energy flux. So like, for me, as an ambivert, I love having that energy of being with people I love. But then when I recharge, it's actually not sitting, staring at a wall reading books, it's petting an animal, because that's my full recharge, right? But it also is like, what, what is who are you? And when do you do best? And how do you do best, and how can you bring the best out and other people, it's, we all have to understand that. And we all have to come to an acceptance of like who I am. If other people need to know that you can help, you know, pull that out of them right and also get your own needs met without being that because I think we all talked about our spouses and people in our workplace and how we mitigate the differences between the introversion and extraversion and understanding, you know, our relationships can be stronger if we understand ourselves and others and communicate about our needs, and how to meet those needs. But I also think, you know, Erica, you mentioned this to you push yourself, right, we all have different places where we push past our boundaries, we push past our social quota, or, you know, Maryellen, you, you tone it down, right, because that may be what you need to do. So like, you know, we we have different times where we have to have that push pull, and it may be required of us due to a job are due to our relationship or just our circumstances in our social activities. But it's, it's interesting that there are such strong, you know, thoughts about who we each are when we're all different.
Erica D'Eramo 57:21
This, that's when the label is so interesting to me, because like when you talk about recharging, you know, this might be really crazy to hear. But even as an introvert one of the ways that I do feel recharged is by hosting people. very counterintuitive. The reason I like hosting people is because I don't actually usually have to interact very much, because I'm always running stuff to and from the kitchen. And I'm usually like, I need you to get the hell out of my kitchen right now. So you get to come over there, please. This is the social area, this is my kitchen. So unless you're gonna be prepping or chopping or whatever, like, please leave. And then I can just listen, I can like absorb from a distance, some of the social energy and like, pop in and maybe if I'm like, that's something that interests me, I just want to like, give you my two cents. But otherwise, I kind of have that like safe buffer. And I get to feed people and like food if you wanted to break down love language immersion. Yeah. Like, get me to talk about food. Yeah, so that, you know, it sound really counterintuitive. And I think when I tell people like oh, I you know, I think I probably had too many social engagements this week. I don't think I can make it to happy hour or whatever. That might sound strange to them. Because they know that I would be up for hosting two days later, let's because very different use of my energy and a very different way of engaging, like, I don't have to really talk to people. I can just like watch them talking. And I'm like, Oh, look, I created this environment where the extroverts can talk.
Melissa 58:55
It's hilarious that you say that because I usually get like the guest of the party award because when I'm done, I go do dishes, because it's like, nobody's bothering me. Nobody's at the sink. Nobody wants to be doing what I'm doing. And it's very, like Zen. And I feel like I'm doing something and it's helpful, and it's useful and recharging. And so everyone's like, Oh, you don't have to do the dishes. I'm like, No, I really do have to do it. So that's my way of coping at parties is when I hit my social quota, I go do the dishes or clean up or help somebody organize.
Erica D'Eramo 59:26
See, these are all good little tips, tricks.
Melissa 59:29
You gotta learn about what you need.
Erica D'Eramo 59:31
Because I'm usually like, you have to earn the right in my house to do the dishes. And I need to
Melissa 59:39
When I come over I won't ask I'll just go play with your cats.
Erica D'Eramo 59:46
But but it never occurred to me that somebody might be actually needing some like downtime. And so I could always be like, oh, you know, this is what I could use help with right now actually, like, can you do this instead? So yeah, that's good. That's good to know. So we've kind of given some good, I feel like we've given a lot of, you know, like thoughts on how we can respect each other respect ourselves. And I know we wanted to talk about myths that we wanted to bust. But before we go into that, are there any other pieces of advice either for individuals or even for leaders that you guys have?
Maryellen 1:00:23
So I think I've, well, I've said it a number of times, I think it's about knowing who you are. And we've talked about it, you got to know who you are, but it's about understanding the people that you're working with and what their needs are, and acknowledging those and recognizing that differences, not a weakness, differences, how you empower your team to achieve more, whatever that team looks like. And for me, as you said, Melissa, you know, for me, it's I've got to my restraint is dialing it back, to make sure that I don't become the loud voice in the room, especially if I've got a team of folks that tend to, to be quieter in the space when there's a lot of energy in the room or a lot of people. But I think that Erica, you said it at the very beginning, we have valued extraversion in a way that has made it hard for for ambiverts, or introverts to maybe move forward and careers the way that they they have been able to but I think, you know, some people say we're getting soft, or that we're being too, you know, I don't want to use a bunch of terminology you you know, to work blah, blah, blah. But the reality of it is, is that we're learning to see that a diverse workforce, who has different characteristics, different personalities and different needs, gets us to where we need to be. And that takes a mix of all of it. Whether it's introverts and introverts or extroverts, no matter what those differences are, whether it's personality differences, or gender differences, or racial differences or other gender norms, when we can acknowledge that those differences, enrich our team and help us be better as a group, I just think that's a thing for all of us to be aware of is just because we're not liked doesn't mean that we're not effective.
Erica D'Eramo 1:02:14
Yeah, like if I'm flying on a plane, and I know that the team that designed the safety systems on that plane was a team full of only extroverts. Is that gonna make me feel more safe on that plane? Not neccessarily. Right, like, if you really just think about, like, when you boil it down to that, and put your own self interest at the very core of it, of like, is this effective, I want a team who has thought of all the different things that could go wrong. And that means a diverse set of brains and people who have different ways of thinking, different lived experiences, different understandings of risk, and that's the team I want designing the safety system on my plane. I want some introverts on that team. You know, so, yeah, totally agree.
Melissa 1:03:09
It's also about appreciation for others, and trying not to fit people into a box or expecting them to be just like you, right? I think, when we're not our authentic selves, when we're trying to shove ourselves into somebody else's box, we don't do well, we don't perform well, we don't, we don't have a passion for what we're doing. Because we're trying to conform or if someone else doesn't understand us, we don't feel as engaged, we're not going to give as much of ourselves and we're not going to be at our best. So for me, I think that just like you said, recognizing differences, understanding who we all are, how we can best work together. I don't think there's anything wrong with that. I think it engages people more you get more from your experience, it feels like a family. Like if you're just trying to shove somebody into a box and trying to get them to do what you like to do. It never works well and you end up having burnout. And so the more you feel seen the harder you work, right and and the more creative you can be and the best you can give of yourself. So the more we can recognize people where they stand and where they're at, the better we can be as a group as a workplace as in our relationships. And so I think the biggest piece that we can potentially do is just recognize that we're all different and remove the stigma from any type of person that we are and how we were born to be and recognize that everybody's gonna have their own way of doing things and that's okay. And, you know, of course, we can't all make a perfect work environment for ourselves. We're gonna have to adjust but the more we make Make adjustments that are possible and plausible and easy to do. And you know that that work for everybody, the better we can be.
Erica D'Eramo 1:05:10
Yeah, and I think when you see, resistance to that, it's worth just taking a note. I mean, because it can happen in each of us, we can see somebody who is different, who acts different from us, or operates differently than we do. And we might feel an initial way about it. But just like checking in with ourselves about, oh, do I get this a lot of the somebody who doesn't eat meat, actually, you'd be surprised how many people get really upset about it. And I always find it fascinating. Like, I don't care what you eat, why, but I think it's like, we feel a reflection on ourselves, or our choices like we we extrapolate that somehow, because you're acting different, because you don't want to come out tonight, or you don't want to go to happy hour. That's like a judgment on me. And we're internalizing it. And, and just like if we say it out loud, if we can understand where that resistance comes from, or that hurt feeling, or whatever that is, we can manage it a little bit more instead of getting defensive or judgy, or, or whatever. And we can then be more effective about it. Because if we said, oh, that's coming from my own wounded ego, well, I don't really want to use that as an impetus for making business decisions or leadership decisions within the team. Like that's not really a great place to be working from. So I think there's some room for for all of us really, like who doesn't sometimes get, feel that little tug.
Melissa 1:06:41
I think Ted Lasso in Ted Lasso, the main character says, instead of being judgmental, be curious. And
Erica D'Eramo 1:06:49
Yes!
Melissa 1:06:50
I love that. I mean, I am the first person to jump to a judgement at all times. I cannot say that, that I'm an enlightened person at all. But that line in and of itself is just so beautiful. Like, be curious, ask questions, instead of assigning a judgement based on your own past experience.
Erica D'Eramo 1:07:08
Yeah, 100%. I mean, and in coaching, they really teach curiosity as like a core tenet, a core people think that coaches and I talked in many episodes about this, but people think that coaches like give advice or guidance or tell you what to do, but really like coaches will ask all of the, good coaches will ask all of the powerful questions with true curiosity at the root of it. And I just think curiosity is just such a superpower as far as leadership goes, or just like living goes. Okay, let's biss some moths. Let's, let's bust some myths? Let's do that. Okay. Um, so let's see, what's what's a myth that you want to bust Maryellen.
Maryellen 1:08:02
So, I think that one of the myths are that extroverts are very self centered, and very egocentric. And I don't think that that's true. I may be the that I just live differently than a lot of other extroverts. But I don't think that that's true. I think that that's a myth. I have seen some introverts who can be pretty damn selfish to be completely frank. I think that that is a different personality trait that is bred by different interactions and different experiences. But I think that I don't, I don't know that, that we tend to think about people who are in the lime, that they like to be in the limelight, and that they like to be the center of attention, and it's about them over and over again, over and again, I just I don't think that that's true. I just think that it goes back to that energy. I think that extroverts thrive in an environment where, where there are more people to interact with, that doesn't necessarily mean that they like to be the center of attention. Because I say that to people people are like, but you're such an extrovert. And I'm like, but I don't really like to be the center of attention. Like I really don't, I will step in and lead when there's a vacuum in leadership. So it's not about me being the center of attention, but it is about me being in the middle of the energy. I don't know if that makes any sense or not.
Erica D'Eramo 1:09:28
Yeah, totally. In fact, I would actually say that probably my introverted tendencies would at times lead to behavior that looks more selfish, like because I am often having to pull back my energy you know, and like, protect myself sometimes in an extroverted world. Sometimes that can look that can look selfish to people so I could... It's interesting that at
Maryellen 1:10:00
Sure, and maybe it's self awareness. Well, maybe it's self awareness or the extroverts and we talked about this when we were prepping that extroverts aren't necessarily self aware. Yeah, I think that's a different character trait. I don't think that that's necessarily introvert, ambivert or extrovert.
Erica D'Eramo 1:10:18
Right. Exactly. Yeah, it's not this, like could get mixed up easily. I think sometimes. So. Cool. So we had a list of myths to bust. Did you guys want to kind of talk through those?
Maryellen 1:10:33
I think we've talked about a lot of them. So maybe we go through the list and reiterate some of them.
Erica D'Eramo 1:10:38
Yeah, let's see. So we've got introverts prefer working from home and extroverts prefer the office. And I think you're right, we did, we did some talking about that. And the reality probably is that like, we all prefer some mixture, or we're kind of across the spectrum. I'm sure that there are some introverts out there that prefer going into the office, if the office is their quiet space too, right? Like, there are some people who, and you heard this a lot in particularly from an you know, I'm gonna make a generalization here, but when the pandemic happened, people who had a stay at home parent and children at home, often felt that the office provided their quiet place, and home provided the like more interaction and chaos and distractions. And like, for me, it was the reverse. But I think that that's definitely, that's kind of a myth. It's really about like some sort of hybrid with the platforms and tools that we that we need to support our energies.
Melissa 1:11:48
And how the kind of dynamic you have on your team, the type of people you work with what you're doing, because if you're doing project based work, where you don't really need a whole lot of interaction, then home space is perfect. As long as your home space is conducive to work.
Erica D'Eramo 1:12:02
Yeah, yeah, totally. Okay, so here's a myth. Extroverts recharge by partying. Who wants to talk on that one?
Maryellen 1:12:12
Can I please?
Erica D'Eramo 1:12:13
Yeah.
Maryellen 1:12:16
That's a total myth. I, I'm not like a bee in a club in the middle of people party kind of person. And I never have been ever even in college. I, it was more about being around. It was about being around people. But it wasn't the energy of a party. And, like, if you see me at like a party party, I'm often kind of like hanging out in a small group visiting and chatting or butterflying around like social butterfly laying around to people versus like, drink in my hand, you know, out on the dance floor. That was never me, right, ever. And I know that my experience is one isolated experience. But I don't think that extrovert extroverts are exclusively partiers, I think that we just inherently enjoy the energy of more people. I used to, I used to tell people, this is kind of crazy. I was I would describe it like Peanuts. I'm kind of like Pigpen. You know how Pigpen always had like the chaos swirling around them. Like, like, that's me.
Erica D'Eramo 1:13:28
But you probably smell nicer.
Maryellen 1:13:30
I hope so. But, um, but so it's not necessarily been at a party, but it's just about that energy and needing movement and stuff happening around me. And the quiet not being energized and quiet as I'm most destabilizing for me in some respects. But it's it's not like a party atmosphere. It's just a different kind of energy where there's, there's interaction.
Erica D'Eramo 1:14:00
Yeah, ironically, as you were talking about that, like I was thinking back to all the salsa dancing I used to do and for me, I love salsa dancing, but it meshes well because I'm not talking to the person I'm dancing with. Like I might be interacting a little bit but we're not talking. They don't need to know anything about me. I don't need to worry too much about being socially awkward. It's just an opportunity to like you know, with probably a stranger just like dance and enjoy some music and and get some exercise and then you part ways and you never have to like engage again and you don't need to know anything about them. And so that was conducive for me like I that was fine for me. It didn't really like withdraw too much for my energy sources. So yeah, there we go. Like, it's not the introverts can't party either.
Melissa 1:14:57
I think it's a recharge myth. I I think it's yeah, that, you know, introverts need to be alone. And extroverts need to be with people like it doesn't matter what your interaction is, or it has to be more of an extreme of like one or the other. And I think at least for myself being in the middle, I do recharge when I'm at a party with people I love and know really well. And it doesn't take a lot of effort to connect on a deeper level. If I'm talking shop, or if I'm talking like a really shallow level for two hours and exhausted, I'm like, oh, yeah, it's so tiring. But if I'm with people that I know, well, and gel with time flies, and it energizes me and, and I don't hit my quota as fast. So I think it's the quality of interaction of what you're doing. And, you know, can you like, I find that the same with my husband, like, I can spend three solid days with my husband, and I don't feel drained at all, versus spending an hour with a brand new person, I'm like, Okay, I'm done. So I think rather than the, the myth of people or no people, it's more about what you're doing in that instance, and who you're with and the activity that you're doing, and what that does for you.
Erica D'Eramo 1:16:22
Yeah,
Maryellen 1:16:22
Agreed.
Erica D'Eramo 1:16:23
Yeah, I'll bet there's like some piece in here around psychological safety and like, you know, risk around psychological safety that probably, I'm realizing has an element to whether that social interaction is recharging for me or not recharging for me. So.
Maryellen 1:16:41
Yeah, and maybe that's it. Maybe extroverts are comfortable with a differential level of psychological safety.
Erica D'Eramo 1:16:47
Possibly?
Maryellen 1:16:48
Yeah. I think another conversation for another day.
Erica D'Eramo 1:16:51
Yes. Yeah. whole, like, I'm sure people, theses on this. So okay, let's see, well, let's do one more myth. I would say extroverts equal leaders and introverts equal individual contributors.
Maryellen 1:17:08
No,
Erica D'Eramo 1:17:09
Yeah, no,
Maryellen 1:17:10
No, but I do think that it takes extra effort on behalf of general leadership to recognize that the those quiet leaders, the introverts who may not always put themselves in the position to lead, and you almost have to, you know, you almost have to pull them out of that comfort zone. But my personal experiences, especially I've talked about having a team that has a lot of introverts, God, the capability and the knowledge and the influence that those quiet leaders have, because when they do speak up, people listen, right? They they truly do, listen, whereas the people who are always talking, sometimes you just you have no choice but to numb out right. So I think that's a myth. I think that some of our most effective leaders are the ones who are sitting back analyzing, challenging questioning in their own minds and working it through in their own minds quietly, and then bring it forward. It's just different types of leadership. But again, maybe that's an extrovert's view on it. I don't know.
Melissa 1:18:26
I would agree with that. I think it's you said a word which really resonated which is elevate, and the best leaders I've had, regardless of how introverted or extroverted they are, they elevate the voices of the people below them there, they are not the shining star. They are the North Star, and they elevate the people below them in the best way possible. Regardless of who they are, it doesn't matter. You know, and they take into account the people below them and what they're like rather than just making the decisions based upon their own personality. So for me, it hasn't really mattered. Whether you want to talk all day or you don't. Or if you are introverted extroverted, it's if you're taking the needs of your people into account and you're elevating their ideas and their voices so that you feel like a team and a family as a whole rather than just an n of one where you're supporting somebody.
Erica D'Eramo 1:19:27
Yeah, I think from an introvert perspective, I would say I have never had a leader told me to speak up more because I think I do I'm, I think like I might find it to be an energy draw to interact with people a lot for longer durations or more frequency. But for better or worse, I think the filter fell off sometime in college and never got put back on and so So I, in fact, it's probably the opposite, right? Like, I'm probably been told, like, maybe you need to just bite your tongue and not speak up sometimes. Which also, right, there's a gender element there as well, right? Like, you know, I recognize that. But I do think that one, one piece, oh around introverts as possible leaders would be that many times they are having to learn how to navigate an environment that wasn't necessarily built for them. And so they are having to learn how to be like, more flexible, more adaptable, more in tune with all the things going on around them. I think one of the reasons I am an introvert, or like one of the reasons that like I have all these characteristics that we then define as introversion is, I tend to be like, very highly sensing. So I, I'm, like, overwhelmed by a lot of sensory information. And that's when there's humans, there's so many different elements of sensory information, right, there's like tone of voice, facial facial expressions, how they're standing, all the different tones. And people would say, like, Oh, you're thinking too much about this, but it is what it is, like that much data and information is coming into my brain and being processed, I think that that's why it's exhausting for me. But if used for good, that can be a really, you know, like, if you can learn to harness that power, then it can also be supportive of strong leadership behaviors as well. So yeah, that's what I would say that that's my vote for, you know, leader, introverts, and we need all all types, right, like any, we need all the types to do the things so
Melissa 1:21:47
but you met, highly sensing, which I don't think that we should discount here, highly sensing and also social awareness and social anxiety. I mean, if you have social anxiety, or high, high, high social awareness, and you're going into social activities, even if you want to be there, even if you enjoy that social activity, and I think that goes back to what we talked about, about, you know, the safety and who you're with, that's going to just the social anxiety is going to be super draining very quickly, even if you're just there for 30 minutes, because you're thinking about so many things at once.
Maryellen 1:22:27
So, but that's a myth of us that extroverts don't have social anxiety. It's true, right? Yeah. I think that that's not necessarily true. Because again, it goes back to how do you get your energy and how do you recharge. And I said it before, as an extrovert, I don't like necessarily being like the center of attention, or the the leader in the room. My own personal bias is, I'm happy to let others lead. I like the energy of the people there. So I think a myth is that extroverts, you know, probably don't have any social anxiety, or I would venture to guess they probably do.
Erica D'Eramo 1:23:11
And so I think like, what we're seeing is that, again, we apply these labels based on where we fall in a spectrum, about how our energy gets expended and recharged. And yet what it is for each individual person that is expending or recharging is different, right. So like, for me, I might share that my socializing, you know, like for me, I might share with another extrovert, we might share the trait of the social anxiety drawing or energy down. And, and that's just one element feeding into what I perceive as my introversion, or what I've labeled as introversion. But for an extrovert, they might experience it the same thing. And it manifests differently for them. So Right. So yeah, again, it's kind of like these are arbitrary labels in some ways, but they are helpful as a model for us to be able to operate in the world in a more effective way. So speaking of helpful for operating in the world. I love when we can share some resources or further reading were there anything any like resources or books or articles that either of you wanted to share that you thought were helpful?
Melissa 1:24:30
I don't have anything specific. I think taking those personality tests are always helpful and surface level, but then doing some introspection about when do I feel most recharged? How long does it take me to get to my quota? And how much time do I need afterwards? And do I need to ask for that time for my significant other or my family or whatever to get that recharge and how do I build that in? I think just the selfish introspection of noticing your own personal inner, you know, responses. Because when I learned about the whole, you know, three hour rule with family, it was life changing. Like, okay, we're gonna be there for three hours. Because I wouldn't go through that, you know, sadness or like, I want to be staying here, but it's like three hours, I'm giving myself the out, we're gonna be here on experience. So I think any introspection is really helpful if you can just take some time to think about situations that recharges you or that drain you. And what about those situations may have had that happen, that you can use that as tools in the future? Yeah.
Maryellen 1:25:42
So I think, you know, a couple of times, we've talked about different personality tests, or Myers Brigg, or Myers Briggs, or whatever. I think that when you do those tests, and for me, I talked about my own experience when I had a team of people, and I had this wheel, and it showed where it plotted where every single person in my team was, for me, the learning was reading about the other personality types and understanding their motivations and, and where their limits are, because there's a lot of generalities, but it's still very quite useful. So whether it's one of those online resources that you've got, or whether it's a book that you find, and it doesn't, my own personal experiences, it doesn't matter as much, which one of those you choose, but don't just read about your own personality type, go and read about the other personality types and understand where those thresholds and those motivations are, you know, the one I'm most familiar with is the one we use at work, which is a system of colors, right? Red, blue, green, and yellow. And,
Erica D'Eramo 1:26:46
Which one are you Maryellen?
Maryellen 1:26:49
I am squarely between red and yellow. I am like, like orange as can be so I'm a social butterfly. But I like finite decisions getting made move forward. I'm not deeply analytical, my husband, I said, I think he's an ambivert he sits smack dab in the middle drives me batshit crazy sometimes.
Melissa 1:27:10
That's me. Little bit of everything,
Maryellen 1:27:14
and I'm like, anyway, so that's a whole different conversation for another day. But I guess the counsel is, you know, there's a lot of people I hear them go, oh, well, you know, you can't really put any stock in those. I think the the learning or the opportunity for us each to grow and understand is read about the types that aren't you. Understand. And, and ask yourself, you know, you guys talked about curiosity, then ask yourself, Okay, but if this is what motivates that person, then maybe I need to approach that person a little bit differently. So I guess the counsel is read about the other types, try to understand the other types. Just don't focus on knowing yourself and knowing yourself is important. But to get the most out of your people, know, your people.
Erica D'Eramo 1:28:03
I think that those, like, those can be so helpful in knowing what questions to ask of the team. And then I would always add, like, and then just ask them what they like, or what. We all know that they're the outliers that actually, whatever they're, you know, INTJ, but they actually, in some ways, don't behave like that or act like that. So, yeah. Yeah, I think I mentioned I'm a red on that. But it might be that I took that test when I was working offshore, and I was just like, really, really in it, you know? So I think for me, I there were two books that I read that I found really helpful when I was first diagnosed as an introvert. But the book that my when my therapist was like, Oh, you're an introvert. And I was like, "What?! No, I'm not!" He suggested Introvert Advantage, which I've really, really enjoyed the Introvert Advantage, and that's from some time ago, now. It's by Marti Olsen Laney. And we can put a link in the show notes. And then the other one that is somewhat more recent, and has been quite popular is Quiet by Susan Cain. And she's done a lot of research and work on the topic of introversion. And yeah, those are just some other you know, further reading for anyone who either I identifies as an introvert or wants to know more about what that means. Maybe you love an introvert. Ironically, I didn't see a lot out there on like, extroverts... Books to read about extraversion or introversion, even so I think that that's kind of a fascinating little commentary on society that there are like some self help books on how to either be an introvert or deal with the introverts. So
Melissa 1:30:09
or have different levels of introversion extroversion in a relationship, I feel like that's that's also an area that isn't really discussed a whole lot. And maybe I just haven't looked as much. But, you know, I find that I don't know a whole lot of people that have the same level of introversion extroversion, in their partner, it's usually a little bit of, you know, one's more than the other on different ends of the spectrum. I don't find that, you know, to extroverts are two introverts, it's usually kind of a push pull where people you know, encourage each other to go the opposite end. But in that instance, you need to understand with your partner, what your needs are, what their needs are, and especially, you know, if they have a really demanding work life, and then they come home, and like you said, they may not, they may not want you coming at them and just discussing everything about your day, the minute they like I need to sit for a minute. So I think that's something that would be really interesting to learn more about is how that happens in relationships, and how we can kind of manage that amongst ourselves to make our relationships even stronger to at home.
Erica D'Eramo 1:31:19
Yeah, I'll keep an eye out for the how to be married to an extrovert. But my husband's not really I don't think he would define himself as an extrovert. But he does also doesn't define himself as an introvert, he's probably solidly ambivert. But when you say that, I have to laugh, because even for me, the introvert when I would come home from rotation, and I'd be home alone all day. And yes, I was like recovering from working offshore for 28 days, or whatever. But he would come home from working a full day at work. And I'd be like, hi, hi. Hi. So okay, this is the meal plan for the week. And this is a food prep that I'm going to do tonight. And I could really use help with like your thoughts on this. And what do you think about this trip that I can plan? And what do you think about that? And just like, because I had all these things that I've been thinking about all day, and then he came home and it was like, I just I just need a minute,
Melissa 1:32:10
Coming in hot.
Erica D'Eramo 1:32:13
But you know, like, even for us that was that was an interesting dynamic, because it was kind of flipped for us. And in that situation for the introvert to be like, Okay, please talk to me. Like,
Maryellen 1:32:28
We travel now go to visit, the kids see their activities. And my husband's favorite thing is to read a book, whether it's in the car or on the plane, and I'm like, ooh, we're in a space alone together. Let's talk, let's let's, and he's, he has this, you can see it, like this look comes over his face, because he's like, okay, that's what I have to do now. God bless him, you know, he's, at the time
Melissa 1:32:52
I'm dying Maryellen. And because I do the same thing with my husband, we travel and he has fully given up on books. And he only reads magazines so that he can read a little bit at a time. And then when I talked to him, he can turn to us in the middle of his book, and so it turned out that he just he was so great that he adapted that he just changed to magazines.
Erica D'Eramo 1:33:16
Oh my gosh, to funny. Well, there, yeah, see, we're all learning. But I do think we have an idea here about like the, I think there's a gap in the market. We need more books and how to how to live with the extroverts, how to deal with the extroverts and how to be an extrovert in this world. So
Melissa 1:33:34
How to manage when your partner wants to stay two hours longer at a party and you're done. Driving different cars.
Erica D'Eramo 1:33:44
That's all Yeah, that's a legit option. So that's fine. Well, I really, really appreciate both of you coming on and sharing your experiences, your lived experiences and your thoughts from individual perspective and as leaders. So that's been really wonderful. Thank you. And I hope that everyone takes the time they need after this episode to recharge in the way that fills their cup.
Melissa 1:34:15
I'm gonna go pet a cat. I mean, that's usually what I do. Yeah, find an animal. Yeah.
Maryellen 1:34:23
I've been home all morning. So it's time to go. Like I told my husband I'm like when we finished this we're we've got a list of things we're going and I've got to go do this. I gotta go do that and I need to go see these people and do this. And
Erica D'Eramo 1:34:36
I had I mentioned I had a brunch to go to before this where I like solidly interacted with people for maybe two hours this morning. And so probably after we wrap this up, I'm gonna go lay on a bed and hope that the cats just descend on me and Oh, yes,
Melissa 1:35:01
Depressure
Erica D'Eramo 1:35:02
The one air conditioned room. I'm gonna go lay there in silence but it's been fun. Thank you ladies so much and for our listeners. As always you can find information on you know, if you're struggling with how to navigate your work environment or your your leadership role, either as an extrovert or an introvert. You can find our resources on twopiersconsulting.com And you can find us on all those social media platforms and we look forward to seeing you next episode.