This week, we're joined by two of our summer associates, who discuss their experiences searching and applying for internships, as well as some of the pitfalls and challenges they've faced along the way. If you haven't applied for an internship lately, rest assured that the world has changed. Along with their personal experiences, we also discuss some of the common red flags to look out for when searching for summer work experience, as well as the broader implications for companies that require extensive experience of their internship applicants. This is a great episode for anyone who will be applying for internships, or whose college-aged children will be. It's also an informative discussion for anyone looking to offer college students summer experience.
Transcript below:
Erica D'Eramo 0:05
Hello, and welcome to the Two Piers podcast. I'm your host, Erica D'Eramo. This week, we actually have some internal guests. So, we normally have external guests join our podcast and share their insights. And this week, we'll have our summer associates joining us to talk about their experiences in applying for internships, what that application process has looked like for them. And we'll have some insights for people that are either looking to join a new company, early stage career folks, people looking for internships, but also information for hiring managers about how they can improve the process and how they can better access some of the talent that's out there.
So joining us today are Mishel and Isabella, and I'm going to have them introduce themselves. So Mishel, tell us a little bit about yourself.
Mishel 1:01
Hello. So like Erica stated, my name is Mishel. I'm currently going into my senior year of college at Rutgers University Business School. And I'm graduating with a major in finance and minor in economics. I'm currently here at Two Piers, I'm a summer Business Development Associate. And I'm not exactly sure what kind of job I want in the future, or what I want to pursue, but I do enjoy the flexibility that my major gives me, because it gives me the ability to have several options and apply for several jobs within my field. So, we're still looking on the lookout.
Erica D'Eramo 1:36
Cool, excellent. Well, thanks. Thanks for joining us this summer and on the podcast, Mishel, and Isabella.
Isabella 1:44
Hi, my name is Isabella, and I just finished my first year at New York University, more specifically Stern School of Business, and I have a plan to major in marketing, but you know, things can change, but for now, my plan is to major in marketing. And I'm currently the Digital Marketing Associate for Two Piers. I love food, anime, and video games. And one thing I would really love to do is work somewhere in the future where I can combine marketing and video games and have something where I can just delve in with technology and how the marketing world works and just create one super cool thing. So yeah...
Erica D'Eramo 2:23
Yeah, awesome. We love channeling that passion into something that's gonna make us some money. So, I have to admit that this was originally going to be a podcast episode about really onerous job application processes or lists of requirements that tend to deter applicants. And I think we might touch on that. But the more interesting and shocking piece about this, and that I learned in the preparation for this episode was just your experiences moving from university settings into internships, and potentially long term job market, especially since the world has changed so significantly since I did this, not just in terms of technology, but also with COVID and things going remote, I think there's just so much more out there and different practices that could be detrimental in various ways. So, I did want to get your experiences in that. And I guess let's start with Mishel, can you just tell us a little bit about what your journey looked like on the lead up to working with us here at Two Piers?
Mishel 3:48
So, I got this internship through a website, where basically you just pay them to find you an internship. For the most part, what was really concerning about me was that I was paying them a significant amount of money. And they were in return gonna give me an unpaid internship, which at first, I didn't really think it was a problem with it, until I realized that if I'm investing in something, I do want to not just be getting the knowledge back from it, but at least get some type reimbursement with the job that I'm getting, I guess. And basically, they were charging me thousands of dollars, and I was telling them the kind of jobs that I wanted, and they gave me a list of jobs to choose from. And a lot of them weren't really necessarily some of the ones that I had asked for. And I totally understand I'm not going to get everything that I asked, you know, but for the investment that I was making, it just seemed a little unfair. And they give you a coach basically that's supposed to help you with the whole process. But she was helpful but the only thing that they really did was just helped me with my resume. And then aside from that everything was just up in the air, I was just kind of emailing them back and forth. And it took a lot of me begging them to be like, can you please out of all the options that you're giving me to choose from, can you at least make them all paid since I am paying you guys just to help me find an internship. And it was just a long process. And I feel like, obviously, I'm very thankful that I got this internship with Two Piers, honestly, has been a really great internship. And I couldn't be more grateful by just the whole process of having to do that was very stressful, because I would've been able to find this internship on LinkedIn. And so, I basically wouldn't have had to pay thousands of dollars to get an internship that I could have probably found on LinkedIn. And they just were very, I guess they weren't as helpful as they made it seem out to be. And that was stressful at the time, because as I am going into my senior year, a lot of these internships and jobs are looking for a lot of experience. So, since I didn't have it, I was expecting them to help me with that. And it was just kind of a, you're on your own, you kind of just have to pay us and these are what we're giving you, and if you don't accept these, then I'm sorry, we can't really do anything else. So, it was a little stressful at first, but...
Erica D'Eramo 6:23
No money back guarantee?
Mishel 6:25
Yeah, no money back guarantee. And it's not even like I was expecting all my money back. And I did tell them, I have my own expenses like school because I am paying for school by myself. So I told them, you know, I really can't pay all this money. And they were understanding, they did give me a discount and stuff. But just for- I was just expecting to get a job where the money doesn't even matter, how much I'm getting paid wasn't even an issue, it was just, I would feel as though okay, I'm learning from this internship, but on top of that, I am getting some reimbursement and some of the money I spent kind of back so that I wouldn't feel so upset about spending that much money.
Erica D'Eramo 7:05
So, we'll leave that company unnamed for now. But I do want to share, from our perspective, when I initially asked, oh okay, when they reached out to me and said, hey, we have potential interns that we would love to connect you with, and I was kind of like, well, where's the catch? You know, how do you make your money and they said, oh, a lot of times university programs will pay for this to help match their students, or it comes from other sources of funding. And once in a while interns will pay for it themselves. But I had no idea the scale, I thought it was like you pay like a subscription, like LinkedIn or whatever, to access more information. And I'm learning that that was- that's maybe not the case, actually. And so we've ended, I've provided that feedback to the company, because I think more than just the fact that it's a significant amount of money from people who are already trying to find a job, and they're off, they even said to me at the time, oh, you don't even need to pay them, they can be unpaid. And I was like, well, that doesn't really align with the ethos of our company. So obviously, I will pay them as they're doing work and compensate people, and we'll pay what we can. But yeah, I think there are a lot of things that I discovered in that. And so we've kind of ended any association with that, because it feels particularly like it relies on money from groups that are already disadvantaged or marginalized in the fact that perhaps they don't have the family network to connect with internships on Wall Street or whatever. And I love that there has been a lot of diversity of candidates coming through. But at the same time, most of the people that I've interviewed or worked with are already from marginalized communities and that they're either women looking for roles in traditionally male dominated environments or coming from first generation immigrant families or different barriers that mean that the traditional routes that are available for wealthy, white guys in college might not be available to them. And so, it felt particularly icky to me that it's not necessarily going to be about opening up more opportunities, but instead about making a lot of money off of these individuals. So, I'm really glad that I've gotten to work with people so far. I'm so glad I connected with you. But we'll be just focusing on LinkedIn next year for publicizing our internships.
Mishel 9:55
I think that in general, they do have the right idea. I just don't think they were displaying it correctly. Because it's like, yeah, they were there to help. They definitely gave me options. But I just don't think they went about it in the right way, at least when I dealt with them, it could have been different for other people. But my experience just was very different from what I expected, at least.
Erica D'Eramo 10:16
Yeah. So, tell me a little bit too about like- because you transitioned schools as well. And so, I think with the pandemic, I'm just hearing that the normal cadence that occurred when I was in college of you show up fall semester freshman year, and you get informed of all of these job fairs and recruiters on campus for internships, and then, you know, by sophomore year, you've got an internship locked in and by junior year, you're going for a second year internship, that was kind of the typical cadence so as you see, but it seems like that kind of got thrown up in the air a little bit, not just from COVID, and remote school options, but also maybe transitioning schools also puts like a hindrance on that.
Mishel 11:03
Yeah, so I did go to community college for my first two years of school. And I am from an immigrant family and a first generation college students. So, it kinda was a little difficult, because I didn't really have much help or anything when it came to school related things or anything in that area. So, I didn't really know exactly what an internship was my freshman year, I was kind of just focused on paying for schools. So I would just go to school to work, from school to work. And I got good grades, I focused on school, but I guess I didn't go on the other aspect of school where it's like, you should find jobs early, you should apply for this early and stuff like that. And then I realized that I needed to apply for jobs and internships, and then COVID hit. So, then my my junior year or whatever, when I was transferring to Rutgers, it was very difficult because COVID, a lot of people that I did have internships, were telling them, they were like, sorry, we can't, you know, the internships gone, this happened in the middle of a pandemic, understandable. And then came next year, and it was just difficult, and a lot of jobs are already expecting you to have all that experience, which for me, kind of seemed like a disadvantage, because it's not like I'm gonna sit here and tell them my whole life story. But for them to be like, okay, well, you're a junior, you're a senior, you should have at least two years of experience, or you should have this type of experience, it was just very stressful, because I didn't have it at the time, which is why I had to seek out one of those coaching website things where they were like, okay, give us this type of money pay us and we'll get you an internship, just because I was finding it very difficult at the time to secure an internship. And I was just pretty much desperate to get one because I was like, I need to add something to my resume if I potentially want to get a job or have jobs lined up after I graduate, which is coming up, I'm graduating within the next year. So, I was just really stressed out at the time, and maybe was just acting on the spot. And I was like, this is probably the only option that I have. So I did it and it did get me an internship and I am thankful for that. But I just wish that it didn't have to be so stressful, and I didn't have to feel like I was so under qualified, because of all that other stuff that happened.
Erica D'Eramo 13:24
Yeah, I think as someone who also put themselves through college, didn't have any assistance on that front, I spent my freshman year working, right? Like working overtime as well, just making every dollar I could, so that I could eat in the fall. And so, I just think it really, especially these unpaid internships, just, you're already weeding out any portion of the population who is actually showing that great work ethic of putting money in their pocket and hustling and working really hard and showing that responsibility of doing that. And kind of you'll just end up with people who either have the financial means or the family backing to be able to go an entire summer without money. And so what does that do to the diversity of thought in the group? It's just, it's kind of interesting and disappointing. So anyways, I'm glad we found our way to each other Mishel, you've been a great asset to the team. And I hope that you're getting lots of good business development experience across the board.
Mishel 14:32
Thank you.
Erica D'Eramo 14:34
So, Isabella, tell us a little bit about your experience because it was different, right?
Isabella 14:39
Yes, it was very different. So, I actually found Two Piers on LinkedIn, which I'm super grateful for. I think LinkedIn is a great asset for any body trying to find an internship. But with it being so available, you do find a lot of people that will take advantage of those young students that are just trying to find an internship and you don't know, and I didn't know, because I had just finished my first year of college. And what I was trying to do is I see everybody around me getting internships left and right. And they told us, oh, you know, you should not really focus on internships your first year. But when you see everyone else getting internships, you kind of feel that pressure that, oh, I do need an internship. So, I was looking, and I was going actually, more for an unpaid route, because I thought I had no experience, and that's kind of what I was being told not by school, but by social media and stuff like that, that if you don't have experience, why should you be paid? And I don't have professional experience, but I do have experience from college groups or high school and stuff like that. So I thought, you know, I'm just gonna see what's out there. And what I love about LinkedIn is you can send your resume, it's pretty easy, it's not a lot of going through jumps and hoops to try and just apply to one internship. But with one company, it was an unpaid internship. But the process was so extreme that I didn't even realize that I was already doing work for them until last week talking with Erica, I just realized how much work I did for free in the internship. So first, I just had the...
Erica D'Eramo 16:23
You sent the application, right? Like, yes you weren't even...
Isabella 16:28
I didn't even get the internship, which I'm grateful for, I am because I- Anyways, so it started off with just sending your resume, which is nothing different from the rest. But it would go with a few days without communication. And then I got sent an application to just- which I thought it'd be to tell a little bit more about myself before an interview. But I basically had to find really niche influencers that had listened to a certain, let's say, a certain podcast within the last year that had less than 10,000 followers, but more than 1,000 followers, and I had to link their tagline, their handle. And then I had to explain where I found them, how I would draft an email to them, like for the company saying, oh, you know, we want you to be a part of this company. And then I had to find something that was wrong with their website, or that they thought needed improvement, either on their social media or on their website, and then explain that. And so at the moment, I was like, wow, this is a lot of work. So, it took me around two hours because I want to put my best foot forward and find something that maybe nobody else had found on the website or a good influencer that they would be like, oh, wow, you know, we could do work with them. But after that, they scheduled an interview and again, it was kind of more of the same kind of questions, and all this was unpaid. This is an unpaid internship with possibility for something in the fall, I don't really remember what but I think possibility to be paid in the fall, maybe like continuing on with internship and being paid. But I think they ended up not taking me and I think it was because they asked me for my experience and I told them how I had some experienced with a ton of clubs in high school with marketing and stuff. And in college I was a shadow for one of the women in business and entrepreneurship clubs. So, I was just trying to get my face out there. But I still, I don't have a lot of experience. And so they ended up rejecting me, which is it's fine, they can reject anybody but looking back all the work that I had to do, just that's not really unfair and crazy.
Erica D'Eramo 18:57
Valuable work that you did for them. So, congrats on now having some consulting experience as far as digital marketing. I can see the drivers to do that, especially startups, working on a shoestring budget, trying to get really far and we glamorize this hustle culture of you should have to put in the work before you should have to prove your work ethic before we'll give you a chance and you can earn the opportunity. I also think though, that we're, I'm auditioning for you as well, right? Like my brand and Two Piers brand is on the line with the interns as well. And so it's in my interest that when you guys leave, you have a good experience and that you would refer other people to us for internships that are quality people and that you might even refer us to potential future clients down the line. So, when people have such negative experiences with brands, it feels like such a short sighted effort, I think it's probably driven by the bottom line and by this idea of hustle culture, but I vehemently reject those things. If you can't afford to pay somebody, then you don't have a working business model, right? And I think that there is upfront investment that you just have to assume you're going to be cashflow negative for a period of time, you know that. It doesn't mean you get to not pay someone in some way, shape or form and saying, oh, but they get experience. I guess we're seeing, right, that work. Because experience is valued so highly, that's like a valuable currency that people can offer. And you have to like do the unpaid portion. But how silly like, experience as an intern?
Isabella 21:04
It just didn't make sense since it was unpaid. So, I thought that in my payment would be they experience, which is what it's supposed to be.
Erica D'Eramo 21:16
They're saying you need to have experience already, but then they're gonna pay you for experience.
Isabella 21:20
I guess, so, that was like the weird part. And I just think it's just so weird. I just don't think it's fair of these companies that maybe they don't really realize they're doing it. But I'm just gonna give them the benefit of the doubt. But it's not, it's like, having people go through these five step processes just to have an interview and the interview was, they didn't even tell me that I needed all this experience, they're like, "oh, yeah, we're kind of looking for someone with experience, but it's unpaid," and they decided to tell me this at the end. So, it's kind of, it was a little bit of a fishier situation. But that's kind of the thing with LinkedIn, there's some gems, but there's also a lot that you kind of have to weed through, and I kind of got stuck for a second.
Erica D'Eramo 22:19
Well, like you said, thankfully, it didn't work out because somebody probably did get that internships and is working for free this summer. And I just think if you're working for free, it gets so tricky, even from an employer or from a client perspective, if it's independent contractors, I guess which they couldn't be. But if it's unpaid, it wouldn't be an independent contractor. But if you aren't paying somebody like how, there's, it just gets really difficult with enforcing any sort of quality standards or expectations because there's no real trade of value in the moment to say this is the value I'm providing, and this is the value you're providing. It gets really wishy washy, and I think then it just builds resentment, in my opinion, and miscommunication. Because if you're not getting paid, but you don't deliver a deliverable on time, I can't really blame you because you're not getting paid for it, and if you had to go work your second job, obviously, you're going to prioritize that. And then what's the recourse? It's really just firing somebody at that point and holding that over their head. There's not really an exchange of value there and that's what I think might sound good in the short term, but I feel like in the long term it could be tricky. Although, I guess for certain industries, probably even consulting and maybe law, unpaid internships, definitely politics, I know, unpaid internships are the norm. And that's why you end up with so many scenarios where people who are coming from either disadvantaged backgrounds, or just straight up middle class backgrounds, can't afford to take those opportunities, because they just can't have somebody funding their lifestyle for an entire summer. So, yeah. So, what do you guys look for in an internship, then, I guess? I'm kind of curious, maybe, Mishel, you want to share your thoughts?
Mishel 24:36
In general, it's not even the experience, it's just having to be able to put stuff that whether it's not their requirements to apply or even learned into practice, especially like, we go to school for a reason, you know, so we're learning. So, I want to use some of that applied knowledge, whether it's in a smaller or bigger wave towards whichever company. I'd say that I'm getting also my money's worth at school. Because yeah, essentially, I am using it in this job, whether it's not my future career, whether it's just for me to just put it on my resume, I'm still using some knowledge that I've been learning and I've been also investing it. So, I guess just a way to just feel like I'm getting everything out of what I'm investing towards myself. So, I'm using all the subjects, not even every single subject that I'm learning in class or in school, but I know that my major is, I guess, quote, unquote, worth something, it's what I'm working towards, like a further and bigger career. And I can use all of that to my advantage. So, I guess just that and also just, I wouldn't say an easy process, but just a way for me to not feel like applying for a job is so problematic. Like, it's easy going, so I know that the job or the internship or whatever I'm applying for is also going to be work, but also not going to make me stressed out at the same time. It's like a balance, I guess.
Erica D'Eramo 26:14
Yeah. I suppose some stress is probably inherent in the process. But yeah, there's got to be a balance there for sure. And it's interesting, because when you talk about applying your education, and I hear about companies looking for experience from the interns, I have to laugh a little bit, because I'm thinking like, but that is the experience I want you to bring. I love that you both bring fresh perspectives. You bring recent educational experience, it's clear that you're bringing a good work ethic based on your extracurricular activities, the other things that you've done, and the other work that you've done, even if it's not in this subject matter, right, so that's all transferable. But I think it's great that this is sort of a fresh start. And I get that new fresh perspective that outside the box thinking, I highly value that and it just seems so arbitrary to filter based on somebody having been hired previously. There's so much potential out there, and so many creative minds and great thinkers that maybe you're the first one to find them like, that's great, I love that right? Instead of relying just on somebody else's intuition that they hired them and so I guess they must they got an internship, like there's nothing to say that if you did have a previous internship that that went well, you know, just somebody else decided to give you a chance, so therefore, the next person is going to give you a chance. Yeah, I think it's really, in my opinion, that's really faulty thinking. And I think it really, especially for companies looking to increase their diversity, equity and inclusion culture, it really works contrary to those efforts. So...
Mishel 28:01
I really also enjoy what you said about value, because just feeling like I'm valued to whether it's a person or a company in general, it just makes me feel good and it makes me strive towards better. So, it's like now that I know that I'm feeling value, I'm going to work, not like I'm not going to work hard in general, but you can tell that your efforts are worth something. So you're like, okay, I'm enjoying this, I want to work even harder than I already am.
Erica D'Eramo 28:27
Yeah, that intrinsic value. And I think for this internship, while we can pave a rate for the internship, it's probably not, gangbusters, but I hope that we can supplement because value comes in so many different ways. But I just think it's not sufficient to just say, oh, you get experience in mentoring. But I at the same time for internships, I don't think that just money is sufficient either. I think when you commit to doing an internship, you're committing to a lot, you're committing to the financial investment, and you're committing to the work of it, because you have to invest in those people with your time and energy and resources. And so I hope that that is some of the value that comes as well is the intangible, and an education in the networking and getting to know people so. So, Isabella, what are you looking for, especially since you potentially have more internships ahead of you?
Isabella 29:31
Yeah, I just think that basing it off this one, it's just like, having that opportunity to grow and make mistakes without feeling oh, I'm gonna get fired off this or oh, I'm so stupid for not knowing so and so because at the end of the day, we're all young, we're still learning and knowing, having good mentors and somebody that can just guide you in the right direction and help you learn from your mistakes versus reprimanding you for your mistakes is what's really important. So, I think that's something I'm hoping to look for in future ones. And that I found in this one. And, you know, again, like what Mishel said, just applying what I've learned from school to here, and vice versa. Because next year, I'm going to be taking a more specific marketing class, and I'm really interested to see what I've learned from this internship will apply there, and what I will take from those two things combined and apply it to my next internship, and so on and so forth. And so I just think, what Erica said, people can say it's not enough, just mentoring and guidance, but I think it's really the specifics of it, and how those coaches are or those people that you're working under really treat you, and knowing that your effort is being appreciated is really special and important.
Erica D'Eramo 31:01
Yeah. I think what I look for in an intern, I could share this, I guess, is, it's just a level of curiosity. That's what's most important to me, somebody who has clearly explored different avenue and had to do other jobs too, but not necessarily the experience that's similar to this job. But I think it says a lot if you work this summer in a Jamba Juice or something, like just somebody who has had to show up to work and walk in and so that's good. It's not necessarily a weed out factor for me. But I do value that because I think it also shows that they've worked with other people in a professional setting and so they're bringing all of those interactions and experiences with them of different ways of doing things or different ways of thinking. So yeah.
Isabella 31:57
I think, yeah, I remember when I was writing out my resume, I was putting down Jamba Juice and GameStop, which are the two food service and retail jobs I've worked, and I'm like, I wonder if anyone's gonna think these are relevant. But I was hoping, like customer service skills and hospitality, and having to work with employees and solve conflicts would come into play and I think they did. Even those jobs that seem like they have nothing to do with an internship, I think all jobs at least have some value, whether you realize it or not, there's something in there from working a job that you can apply to another. So...
Erica D'Eramo 32:39
Yeah, we have an entire episode that we've recorded on non traditional career paths, and we explore that a lot. Especially foodservice and retail, I mean, there are so many transferable skills, actually. I worked in a pharmacy as a pharmacy technician through high school and partially through college, that might have been one of the toughest jobs I've ever had, like having people scream at you, and throw things at you because their insurance and cover their medication and just having to stay calm. And I had to study all of the medications and know them backwards and forwards. I ended up having a lot of responsibility in that role. And so, you wouldn't think that that would be transferable. But I still found myself using a lot of those skills, even at this stage of my life. So, you never know. So, I did want to talk through some of the things to maybe be careful of from an intern applicant, or even just a new hire applicant perspective. Because you guys have uncovered some, just some areas of awareness for me that with a SHRM, SCP, Society of HR managers, Senior Certified Professional, it's what the acronym means. Just looking back on all of the material I had to study and know for that I was kind of like, what, oh, my goodness, with various different things you guys are describing. I think it might be helpful to talk about this, unpaid internship versus paid internship. So, I'm going to share a little bit of what I know and then maybe get your thoughts on it. So, unpaid internships are technically legal. But you have to be really careful actually, with being able to demonstrate that the intern is receiving much more value, like demonstrably more value than what the company is receiving from the intern. So, if that can't be shown, then that's actually not legal, within the US at least, doing free labor during the interview process, I think that there are certainly consultants that will do some, sometimes you'll hear consultants or freelancers kind of write up their thoughts on somebody's website. I've had people do that before, send me like, hey, here's my write up about your website, would you be interested in doing a consultation. So, sometimes free labor is involved in that. And we've talked about case studies, where it might feel like you're doing some free labor when you have a case interview, and you have to kind of work through some problems. But really, there should never be free labor, even for an unpaid internship, there should be a contract in place and an internship agreement in place that lines out exactly what the responsibilities are, and what that trade of value is. So, if you're having to do free labor, and no contract has been signed, I guess it's just one thing to be thinking about, like, where is this headed? Like you did, Isabella where you're like, if this is what it's like now, and they're probably going to be better than they ever are in the interview process, that's probably the best that accompany is ever going to be is during an interview process, they're putting their best foot forward. So yeah, something to think about there. And that can show up in terms of doing free market research for them. Or even just providing data. I think in some cases with these application processes, if they're collecting a lot of data, it's data that they can leverage, right? If they want you to provide 20 different contexts. Was it? Mishel, did you encounter that at some point?
Mishel 36:34
Yes. So it was for one of the applications. It was an insurance company. So, I guess I probably should have seen it coming. We went through a bunch of interviews, talk to her several times. And then she was okay. So your final process is, I'm gonna give you this, it was like a 50 page doc. And it was like, you have to practically interview 10 people, take their name, phone number ask them all these questions. And on top of that, you have to give us a list of 50 names and numbers. Right? So, it was people that you're potentially going to talk to for to like I guess, switch their insurance. But it was people that I know. And I was just feeling very skeptical, because people that I know are not going to switch the insurance company first of all, a lot of people that I know, are college students, so they're probably still under their parent's insurance. So, I just thought it was very weird, but at the time I was like, oh, wow, they reached out to me first, and they're doing this, that and the other. So, I gave them all the information that they asked for, which took me a very long time, I'm not gonna lie, in asking people if it was okay to provide their number and their name to a company I....
Erica D'Eramo 37:49
People weren't right? People were like, not okay, I would feel like oh Mishel no.
Mishel 37:55
It's because you we're gonna get spam calls, or they thought that or something. So it was very hard. And then eventually I got it, and then I sent it to them. And then right after I sent it to them, they practically ghosted me. So then I would email them several times. And they just never reply to me, they were not answer me. And I had that person on LinkedIn, because that's how they reached out to me. And I was gonna say something until I realized it just wasn't worth it. They're just a bad person for doing what they did. Even if I wasn't going to get the job, which would have been fine. They could have at least told me you know, or at least they would have been like, it would have, I would have felt better if I would have told that I wasn't going to get the job prior to providing them all the information, because it seems sketchy on my end, you know, I give them a bunch of names, a bunch of numbers, and then I send it to them, and they just ghost me. And it's not even like it was a paid job. It was the potential of getting money. Because obviously if you...
Erica D'Eramo 38:49
Right, it was like commission based.
Mishel 38:53
Exactly, so it was commission based. So, it's not even a set salary. And again, at the time, I was just like, oh, a job, you know, yada, yada, yada. Let me try it out. And you know...
Erica D'Eramo 39:05
I'm shaking my head.
Mishel 39:07
Yeah. Because it's just like, I'm interviewing a bunch of people about insurance that don't even have insurance of their own. So...
Erica D'Eramo 39:20
Yeah, so that's what I mean by like that's another red flag. They want you to just give a bunch of data and contact information. Asking for references, that's normal, asking for a list of 50 names and phone numbers for their database, not normal. Yeah, I'm sorry, you had to go through that.
Mishel 39:45
None of the people whose names I put down have told me that they'd gotten any calls unless they just got them and decline the calls but...
Erica D'Eramo 39:52
They might have just sold the data too. Yeah, so, okay. Be wary of those. So thank guidance. So yeah, doing free lead generation like contact collection. Also, I think for, if you find a platform or a service that offers to connect you, I think there are great career coaching platforms out there, there's great resume services that costs money, because there is a lot of value. I've paid to have my resume reviewed, and updated, and I've paid well for that, because it has value and those are professionals. And also, they will always be willing to give references, right? So talking to other people and finding out what their experiences have been on those platforms or with those people can be really valuable. And if a platform or a professional, like a coach or a resume professional isn't able or willing to give you references, that's a big red flag for me, in my opinion. And then, I think it's worth talking a little bit about independent contractor versus employee, because a lot of times, these platforms will say like, oh, if you do want to pay him, you can just hire him as an independent contractor. And I'll be candid, that both of you are hired on as independent contractors. So, I'm going to talk through what that is a little bit, because I think it gets really blurry and it's an important thing, because people, employers, or in this case, I'm a client of yours actually, can get in a lot of trouble. And I know, I talked to our legal adviser quite a bit to make sure that we would be able to strike the balance of you guys getting good information, and getting the development and coaching that you needed or wanted, while also being able to fit the independent contractor title. The difference is for independent contractors, you can decide when you show up, when you do your work, you're working on all of your own equipment. So, you don't get a laptop for the summer. And you have to bring your own expertise. So, in both of these cases, both of you brought your own expertise to the role where I didn't need to train you for how to do social media, I didn't need to train you for how to do some of the business development work that's happening. You bring that skill already and are able to do that. Where I then am providing the support is unrelated areas where we have open conversations about case studies and case interviews and stuff like that. And so and that's actually really helpful for me in developing content as well for other people that I work with. So in this case, I'm actually your client, because it's an independent contractor arrangement. Now, the difference would be if you were an employee, then signs of an employee are that they take direction about exactly what work needs to happen. So I'll say, I need you to do XYZ between 8am and 9pm, or, I'm sorry, between 8am and 5pm. And you need to wear this uniform, or this clothing, and here's the resources, and here's the training, and then that would be an employee. So there is a difference. I think a lot of times what these platforms offer as like, oh, just hire them as an independent contractor. Maybe, but the role might not be suitable for that if what you really need is an actual employee. And so there needs to be some thought process in there. And I think it's good for the individuals doing the work to understand that difference, too. So I try to make that clear in the beginning, right? Like you guys can work for whoever you want during this time, just like I couldn't tell my plumber, oh, you can only work for me, they'd be like okay, sure. So, I can't tell you guys that either, right? There's no noncompete there's nothing like that. So you can work for any other company you want during that time. And you can work as many hours or well, not as many you can work as few hours as you want during a week. You know, it's really very flexible, because you're essentially your own boss. So, any thoughts on that? Did you guys know about that differentiation?
Mishel 44:27
I knew the gist of it. But when you went into more detail and are going into more detail, it's more informative because I didn't know some of the things that you are saying. I knew it was like me working on my own time, but I didn't know I guess how much flexibility actually was. But I enjoy it. I like being able to work, getting whatever I need to get done with no pressure of it being done a specific time. Obviously you'd be like you know, it could be done you know if it's done by next week like that'd be lovely, but, you know, so you're gonna be like it has to be done by next week at 12pm, at this exact time.
Erica D'Eramo 45:05
Yeah. Because I'm a client, right? Yeah, you're delivering a service to me as the client in a way. So yeah, what were you gonna say Isabella?
Isabella 45:13
I remember just when you first told us, in May, I was just kind of like, I've never really heard that term yet, you know? And so I was like, alright, I guess when you made the plumber analogy, I was like, this is interesting, we'll see how this goes. And I just think that, yeah, again, like what Mishel said, it's like, very flexible. You're never really like, I need this by this time. This this this. But you know, I think that when we're able to, sorry, I just lost my train of thought. But when you say, oh, like, by this week, I think it's really flexible and there's not really a lot of pressure to crack down and get something done at a specific moment or minute. So, I think I do like how it works. And it's interesting how you're our client, even though we're your interns, but it's pretty funny.
Erica D'Eramo 46:07
Yeah. Well, that's why I mean, I don't actually use the word intern very much. Because, I mean, I guess this is an internship. But the summer associate term, because really, you guys are just acting as associates, and really pretty independent in that regard, too. So, yeah, I think you come to the table fully capable of doing work that you will do for other people and have done for other people like Isabella, you showed up with social media experience already and digital marketing experience already. So, it's just kind of been pretty hands off. So, thank you. And I think we kind of covered a lot of the technical stuff. Any other insights that you guys wanted to add, before we wrap up this episode?
Mishel 47:04
I guess just regarding the HR part of a lot of jobs and I guess the whole point of the podcast was just for recruiters and the HR department to be a little bit more mindful that yeah, we may not have 1, 2, 3 years of experience, but that doesn't mean that we should be undervalued, or we can potentially become an asset or a good fit to the company. Because like we've mentioned several times, we are getting these entry level jobs, or these internships for the experience, so we will learn while we are in the internship, or while we're in that job. And even if we don't have the experience, it should be like, if we're good workers, we will learn what we have to learn, and for a lot of job applications, and interviews and some tests, a list long testament of things to fill out and read and go through, it kind of discourages you, because then you're gonna feel like, well, I'm meeting five out of the 20 requirements. So I feel like I'm not sure even finish applying for it.
Erica D'Eramo 48:17
Yeah.
Isabella 48:18
Yeah. Literally, that's exactly what I was gonna say. But the requirements part, like, don't be scared of seeing this list full of requirements, if you only fill like let's say, three fourths of them, you should still apply, half still apply because at the end of the day, there's not really any candidates that have 100% of those qualifications that are applying. Most of the people that are applying don't have all those requirements checked off. And companies don't even actually need all of those requirements. A lot of times they just put those there just to put them to look like oh, you need all this to maybe weed out a few people who are afraid to apply because of that.
Erica D'Eramo 49:02
Well that's a funny thing, right? Like who are they weeding out? They're not weeding out the people who don't have those qualifications. They're just weeding out the people who are realistic about their... who are following directions, you're weeding out the people who are following directions so good job. And instead it's like a self selection thing that people who are either overly confident or feel like maybe they figured out the system like we're talking about, just apply anyways. You're gonna disproportionately get people who were like, well, whatever I've got not all of it but good enough, I've always been able to figure it out and that's fine to have some of those people but you don't want only those people.
Isabella 49:44
Exactly. And that's why I was so afraid. Like, I had talked to one of my mom's co-workers who used to deal with resumes and read resumes. She helped me edit my resume, which is super I'm super grateful for but I told her like, oh yeah, there's just one internship I'm interested in, but I'm not gonna probably apply until junior year or something, because I definitely don't have all those qualifications right now, I only have like half...
Erica D'Eramo 50:08
That wasn't mine, was it?
Isabella 50:10
No, no, it was like a bigger company, something a lot like a long shot. Hopefully, once I have more experience, and I can get all those qualifications, she's like, you know a lot of the time they just put that there, you shouldn't deter from applying just because you don't meet all the qualifications. And if I hadn't heard that, and also from you, Erica, like you confirmed that statement and help build on it, I think I would not be applying to a lot of internships because I'm like, I don't want to be that person that applies and doesn't have all those qualifications and boom, they need something with that. And I don't have it, it's like, then why did apply, you know what I mean? It's like, that's what I'm afraid of, but...
Mishel 50:52
And there are people out there who probably do meet every single one of their qualifications, and that's great and like, kudos to them. But it's like, what about the rest of the people who are trying to also be the one of those people for other companies and have all those requirements?
Erica D'Eramo 51:07
Yeah. Yeah. Sorry. Go ahead.
Mishel 51:09
Sorry, it's like, okay, yeah, you have all those requirements, it's great. So, let other people also get their experience. And it's not really their fault, either, you know, but I guess it's just more of the company and the hiring team.
Erica D'Eramo 51:26
I think there's also this other element that people don't really acknowledge a lot in terms of gender diversity that we tend to value potential in men and proven track record in women, and we don't often give women the benefit of the doubt with that track record. So, if we've seen that, men have been able to accomplish really challenging feats, then we assume that they will be able to accomplish really challenging feats in the future. But for women, it's less so like, oh, she's accomplished something really challenging. It's more like, did she do exactly this thing previously, and you're just then missing out on so many people that have such great potential. And that's why I say for me, curiosity is one of the biggest elements, curiosity and an ability to do some work. And that's it. It's really like, are you willing to go learn this thing? Are you curious about the world? Do you want to learn more, and that growth mentality is so much more important. I don't know. I mean, what a small group of people that have such a proven track record about such a small set of that or sorry, such a large set of very specific things. The best candidate out there probably isn't going to be the person that it fits that very tight mold. So... Well, thank you so much for joining and for sharing your insights. And hopefully, this was enlightening for both people who are looking to join new organizations, whether for the summer or for a long term venture, but also for the people who are out there looking for talent and trying to grow their organizations and make an impact. So yeah. And...
Mishel 53:16
Thank you for having us.
Erica D'Eramo 53:17
Yeah.
Isabella 53:17
Thank you for having us, it was super fun.
Erica D'Eramo 53:25
Yeah, well, there you go. These are the new experiences that you can now put on your resume. And from Two Piers, you can always find us on our website at twopiersconsulting.com. You can find the podcasts on all the major streaming platforms, and we are on all the typical social media platforms @twopiersconsult, and you'll get to see some of the great work that both Mishel and Isabella have been contributing this summer. Thanks, and we'll see you next episode.