This episode, we're joined by guest Jason Gray, an HR professional with a nontraditional career path. Not only is Jason the Director of HR at his company, he's also an avid poultry and bee keeper, and a fellow member of the LGBTQIA community, (not to mention a fellow Nittany Lion). In this episode, we discuss the importance of diversifying our sources of fulfillment and pursuing a variety of life experiences. We also explore the value in recruiting candidates with nontraditional career paths who bring additional perspectives and talent beyond the status quo, and how we can access these talent pools. This is an extra long episode with loads of great insights and lots of humor to boot!
Transcript below:
Erica D'Eramo 0:05
Hello, and welcome to the Two Piers podcast. I'm your host, Erica D'Eramo. And today we will be talking about nontraditional career paths. So, we'll be exploring this idea of sort of nonlinear paths from two different perspectives. We'll talk about it from personal perspective from the individual. And the value of diversifying your experiences, the importance of, you know, taking a macro view when framing your skills. We're also going to look at it from the viewpoint of companies and organizations who are recruiting talent and what they can be doing to make sure that they're properly competing for talent in this tight market. So, joining us today, we've got a guest who hails from my alma mater, Penn State. Jason Gray is the Director of Human Resources for his company, but also a dedicated chicken dad and beekeeper. So, we look forward to joining you for this episode.
So, Jason, welcome to the podcast. Thanks for joining us.
Jason 1:16
Thanks Erica. Great to be here.
Erica D'Eramo 1:17
So, tell us a little bit about yourself other than the fact that you are a fellow Nittany Lion, and you work in HR.
Jason 1:24
Sure. So, as you mentioned, dedicated chicken dad so, I've got a flock of birds. I have about almost 100 birds, chickens, geese, guinea fowl, a peacock, you know, just a quite the collection of birds. I also have two beehives, so, probably about 50 or 60,000 bees or so. So, definitely keep myself busy with that and have two Coton de Tulear dogs as well. So, I've got quite the collection of...
Erica D'Eramo 1:56
Quite the menagerie.
Jason 1:57
Four legged and winged babies. So, definitely excited to be here, you know, as you mentioned, went to Penn State and continued on with some education after Penn State, etc. But super excited to join and excited about the topics.
Erica D'Eramo 2:15
Yeah. So, you and I share the fact that we kind of started in one industry ended up in a totally different industry and that was one of the reasons that I wanted to talk to you about this topic, because we've both lived it. But also now we're at points in our careers where we're on the other side of it, we're also practitioners.
Jason 2:37
Sure.
Erica D'Eramo 2:37
So, tell us a little bit about your career path and what that journey looked like for you.
Jason 2:43
Sure. So, my path has, gosh, has really been all over the place. So, shortly after graduating from high school, I had gone to tech school and got an IT degree, never really did anything with that through the process of getting that degree, I realized that being in tech services wasn't really my thing and I was working part time in retail at the time, and actually transitioned into retail management where I stayed for about 20 years. So, working for a large number of Fortune 500, Fortune 100 organizations and leading people and interacting with customers, etc. Through that process, I actually had gone back to school and went to Penn State, even though I had lived here all my life, I had never gone to Penn State and went back as an adult learner, spent actually about eight years doing my undergrad because I was just doing it part time while I was working. So, did that partially remote from Hawaii, so it was nice to be able to have a Penn State education from the middle of the Pacific. But through that process, after I was graduating and finished with that program, then looking to transition into an HR role, that degree was in Labor and Employment Relations. And then from there I was able to transition into into an HR role and then decided to get my Master's in HR. So, I went to American actually in DC and got my master's in human resources, analytics and management. And from there have transitioned even further into HR. So, it's been quite the journey going from multiple sides of of multiple spectrums and super excited to be where I am now though.
Erica D'Eramo 4:31
So, I kind of share some of that in that I did my undergrad in mechanical engineering spent kind of two decades and energy doing various either engineering or leadership roles kind of across the spectrum of operations, finance, strategy and performance management. And then realized that I really wanted to throw myself into this work around organizational capability and diversity, equity and inclusion and that prompted me to then go back to school as an adult learner and go get my executive MBA, and kind of venture out as an entrepreneur and an HR professional after all of those years. And part of what I think played into that, and this is a concept that we've discussed before is this idea of keeping my identity a bit more dynamic. So, especially when you're with one company for a really long time, what I've seen from myself and from a lot of my clients is that our identity starts to get wrapped up very much in our employer, and our role in that entity, especially when you're with a company for multiple decades at a time. And so, I always ensured that I had something else going on in my life, like, becoming a yoga teacher, getting my yoga certification, doing catering, I had a catering company for a while, and I think you kind of share some of that as well.
Jason 4:45
Sure, absolutely. Yeah, I think that when I look back at my career, and when I look back at my life, when I was a kid, for example, I was very involved with 4-H and I always had goats and poultry. And I had a large number of chickens like 150 chickens, and I was a kid, and just a lot of aspects, I guess, that weren't necessarily directly correlated to school and or work. And so, I always found that I had something to keep me occupied outside of the workplace and or outside of school. And I think that that really translates to, to my current situation where, even though I'm overseeing all of the HR functions for my company, I also, whenever I'm not working, I have a lot of other things to occupy my time. And I know that my identity, even as I sit here right now on this call, I have Gosling's that are hatching in an incubator across the room. And so, it's just-
Erica D'Eramo 7:21
It's amazing.
Jason 7:22
Yeah, it's just a very different, I mean, sure, I'm working from home, and I have responsibilities, but at the same time, I also know that when I step away from that, I also have other responsibilities, which are living, breathing, birds and animals, etc, that need my attention. And it gives me another purpose outside of providing for the folks who I work for, and or work with, and so it really helps me to stay grounded and stay connected to something that for, I guess, for lack of better words, and lack of being a cliche, it gives me a purpose that's bigger than my work purpose and it gives me something that I can find relaxation and something that I can find enjoyment in that I know that if I have a tough day at work, I don't go home and think like, oh my gosh, like, wow, what a terrible day and what a challenging day I'm going to do on it, I'm going to work for the rest of the night now. No, I've got other things to do. And so I disconnect a little bit, and I go spend some time with my birds or I spend some time with my dogs or I go check my beehives, there's just a lot of fulfillment that comes from it and being able to step out and step into something different.
Erica D'Eramo 8:40
Yeah, I think that comes through for a lot of people in either like faith or family, if it's not birds or poultry, or yoga, or catering or cooking or whatever, there's a lot of people find those avenues for fulfillment and community in other spaces. But the value I think, is not just in being able to decompress, right? That's a huge part of while you're still in the role. But as you mentioned, if things don't go well, your entire source of self value and identity isn't wrapped up in this one source, right? So, you can direct your efforts and directs that kind of interaction and fulfillment to another focal area if need be.
Jason 9:34
Yeah, I agree. And that's something truly that I experienced, actually, when I had graduated from Penn State, because I had gone part time and was doing it while I was working as an adult learner through World Campus. I spent eight years on that degree and at the end of those eight years, it was almost like, wait, what do I do now? I'm home from work, and what am I supposed to do and it was actually one of the reasons why I decided to go back to school was because as strange as it sounds, I actually missed it. And it was like, wait, how can I get this piece back? And so it was almost like because I had, at this point now, I've gone to school for 30 years. And so, it was almost like, wait, there's a piece that's missing. How do I get that back in? And how do I fill that back? And when I had gone back to American, it was like there was a piece of me that was kind of like, at peace because it was what I was used to doing. And it was back to school again, oh, hey, I have these assignments that are due. And so, there's something to be said for having that piece that's outside of your work identity.
Erica D'Eramo 10:42
Yeah, yeah, that really resonates for me, I knew coming out of working for the employer I'd been with for so many years, I actually intentionally signed up for CoachRICE and there were other options. There were like less intensive, self paced options for doing coaching certification, but I knew that something that had that like structure, that external validation just to cadence to it, and the community of the, you know, the joint classes would continue to provide what I was previously getting from an office setting. And it's interesting thinking about this in terms of the pandemic, because I think with the working from home element, a lot of that sort of fell away, and people were able to see just what part of their life work was, right? What did it need to be versus what how much was it taking up previously with, not just the commute, and then being seated at your desk for however many hours but also, like, happy hours, and off sites and team events, and holiday parties, and all that stuff, which are double edged swords, right? They're enjoyable, but also part of that is to remind you that your community is at work, and your, like second family, you know, is at work and to build that bond, which works in the benefit of the employee, but also very much in the benefit of the employer, because that keeps you tied in.
Jason 12:28
Definitely, definitely and I think that's such a great point. And when you look at, to use the term water cooler chats or whatnot, as they're often referred to, but whether it's at a water cooler or whether it's at the printer or more modern days, typically, in a break room or at the entryway to a facility. But the conversations that happen at those points are so critical, not only to an employee satisfaction, but also to the benefit of the employer, and being able to have people who are interacting with each other, and who are having those great conversations. And a lot of times, there's great ideas that come from those where it's like, hey, I'm having this problem, and oh, my gosh, well, I'm having this problem, too, let's collaborate on it. And so there's just so much value in those pieces. But at the same time, being able to then figure out how do we do that differently? And I think that through the pandemic, it has also been a way to figure out like, okay, how do we have those same type of conversations? And how do we have them remotely now? And so, whether it's using one of the chat platforms or video conferencing, et cetera, it's been an interesting learning curve over the past, almost, gosh, three years now.
Erica D'Eramo 13:48
Yeah, I think with what we're seeing with the great resignation, feels tied to this kind of the space that has developed between people and their employers, the personal life became more personal, and they were able to shut the computer off and interact with their families, for better or worse, right? And so, I think that kind of gave people a bit more confidence in deciding actually, this job or this role is not my entire identity, there might be life after this job, there might be life after this role. Also, on the flip side of that, what we saw in some of the service industries, what was that people were being put under so much strain and pressure in those workplaces that again, priorities shifted, and that tie to the workplace, that linked to the workplace, became a bit thinner and the power of people in a tight labor market to be able to negotiate or walk away from jobs that they weren't enjoying or that weren't fulfilling them just grew a lot, and now we're seeing it, people are making decisions where they're maybe taking on more financial risk, in order to be able to indulge in the things that bring them joy and happiness and growth.
Jason 15:15
Right. And I think you're completely accurate in your assessment there. And I think that a big piece of what I've seen, and I actually switched jobs mid pandemic, to be honest. I mean, I'm part of that whole transition.
Erica D'Eramo 15:34
Yeah same.
Jason 15:34
Right. I transitioned pretty early on in the pandemic, but it was a similar situation where I was like, I wasn't fulfilled and I felt like I was constantly up against a wall and I was constantly being asked to do things that I didn't think were the right way to approach and that I kind of lost my own personal connection to what I was doing, and I lost my own personal connection to the role. And that is where then I started to search and to try to find something new, because I just, I knew that the identity of the organization that I had joined had morphed, and I didn't see myself being a part of that morphed identity. And so, not only through my own search for enjoyment and satisfaction and fulfillment, but also through the process of trying to find and stay with an organization that had similar values, and that just really aligned well with me. I knew that I needed to make a change, and that's where my change was really initiated from the organizations change, which worked out very well for me, I hope it worked out well for them, but that's really where my own personal journey in that piece stemmed in and came from.
I can't help but think that there is a bit of that thread here around exploring different things that bring you joy kind of reminds you of that value outside the organization, outside of this immediate group of people, and maybe is something that can embolden people to then take that leap, right? Because work becomes that part of your life that can be swapped out where it's not the entire- by diversifying where you're getting that fulfillment from, if one piece gets swapped or switched everything else is still kind of running as per usual. And I think community plays into that as well.
Right.
Erica D'Eramo 17:50
To some extent.
Jason 17:51
Yeah, definitely. And I think that, again, in looking at own situation there, as the pandemic began, and as what the spring of 2019, and in- spring of 2019, or spring of 2020, I forget.
Erica D'Eramo 18:09
Spring of 2020.
Jason 18:10
It's all such a blur now, I can't even remember at all, it's been so long, I don't remember. Yeah, I guess it was. So, in March of 2020, whenever things began to tighten up. And actually, it was kind of interesting, my older brother had purchased a couple chickens just to have here on the farm and to have for my niece and nephews, and through that process, like, oh, hey, we just need a couple of birds. And then with everything starting to tighten up, all of our liquor stores and whatnot in Pennsylvania started to shut down. And so, I was like, oh, and then the story seems like it's going somewhere wild, it's not I'll bring it back, I promise. But I merged my love of wine of purchasing some wine from the some of these online wine clubs, and got these wines in well then, of course, I had to taste all of them and then that turned into like, oh, hey, you know, maybe I should order some chickens after I've had all of this wine. And so, I ended up placing a couple of different orders for chickens and for guinea fowl and for geese and whatnot. And so, it was actually kind of an interesting blend of, hey, I really enjoy wine, I can't get wine from the store anymore, so, I'm gonna buy it and I'm gonna get it in the mail. And then oh, let me buy some birds and so it was kind of like all of this stuff blended together through the pandemic of hey, I really enjoy this and well I used to really enjoy having birds so, maybe I should buy birds again. Well now I have all this extra time, I'm definitely gonna buy birds because I can't go anywhere and I can't do anything so why not have a flock. Hey, I've always wanted bees, I'm gonna buy bees now. So, it was kind of-
Erica D'Eramo 19:49
Online.
Jason 19:49
Online, of course online and who knew that they shipped these through the US Postal Service, but alas, here I am now with all my bees, but, so I mean, I think that there's just, and kind of going back to the root of where I went on that tangent is that finding those pieces outside of my role and finding those pieces outside of my identity, which is obviously, as an HR practitioner, there's just so much satisfaction that I've been able to gain from that, which has allowed me to continue to morph my identity, not only inside work, but also outside of work. And I mean, for better or worse on the days now that I'm back in the office, everybody in the office, I think, anyhow, enjoys listening to my stories about the birds and my hatching and the bees, etc. So, it's been an interesting blending of personal and professional, and something that I think that we haven't really seen for a really long time, because there's been such a mandatory division for so long, and well, this is your work life, and this is your personal life. And I think that over the past couple of years, we've really seen more than anything, and I think, really, a lot of where this resignation pandemonium is coming from also, is that people are like, you know what, my personal life and my professional life, like, they may be different, but they're still the same. I mean, I'm still the same person, whether I'm at work or I'm at home. And so, I think that there's just so much desire to, sure, we wear different hats and we have different things that we're responsible for, but at the end of the day, being happy and being fulfilled and being satisfied and being able to help others. We're the same people, whether we're in work or out of work, is just, I think about now it's about how do we find joy? And how do we find satisfaction and fulfillment, versus previously it was, okay, I'm gonna go in, and I'm going to work my shift, and I'm going to do my duties, and then I'm going to leave at the end of the day, and then I'm gonna go do this stuff, but I'm not gonna allow them to overlap, unless I'm taking a vacation day. But now, I think so many people, myself included, it's like it's all kind of blending together. And it's all you have less delineation of like, this is when this starts, and this is when the stops, which I guess, can be a good thing. But it's also a little bit challenging. And I know that there's a lot of people, specifically in medical and the HR world, really, and legal, et cetera, where they've actually seen a little bit of a more frustrating approach to that where sure you go home at the end of the day, and or you end your day from your home, but your day doesn't really end anymore, where it used to just be like, okay, it's five o'clock, or it's six o'clock, whatever your end time was, and that was your end time. And for a lot of folks, myself included some days, that doesn't happen anymore because you're supporting people across the world, or you're supporting people across the country, you have issues that are coming up, you have COVID situations, you have staffing situations, et cetera, et cetera. And so, for a lot of folks, that has actually caused almost the opposite effect, where their life is more blended now than it's ever been where they don't have that delineation. So, it's interesting, I think as a whole, in the US and really around the world, I think we've learned a lot over the past couple of years on maybe the way that we've approached work for however many years, maybe it's not the best way to do it. Maybe we've been doing it wrong, maybe there's a better way, maybe we haven't found that way yet, maybe we're on our way to it, but it's interesting.
Erica D'Eramo 24:02
Yeah, I realized that often when we speak of these things, we are speaking from this place of privilege, where we get to work from home, and other have not gotten to work from home. And I think that what has consistently been shifting or even when we say, oh, you know that that job wasn't fulfilling anymore, so I found something else and that's not available to a lot of people, right?
Jason 24:26
Sure.
Erica D'Eramo 24:27
But even still, there's an overarching shift in what people are willing to put up with now and like a shift in the priorities. And that's where I think it feels like there's been a greater willingness to take on some of that financial risk in order to ensure stability, or spending power in exchange for freedom of how people spend their time and how they spend it with loved ones. And probably a lot of that is coming from like realizing when COVID hit, and there were a ton of layoffs, people the writing was on the wall that this was this loyalty stuff doesn't always work in both directions.
Jason 25:15
Right.
Erica D'Eramo 25:16
And we still operate in a world of capitalism. And so, we can't take it for granted that we will be with the same employer forever. And I think once that sunk in, and people realized, too, there's a pandemic, and people are dying, we don't have all the time in the world to just wait until retirement to actually find fulfillment.
Jason 25:36
Right, right. Yeah and that's actually, one of the guys at work and I were actually just talking about this just a few weeks ago, and one of the things that he and I chatted about was, we almost do life in reverse, because when you really think about it, when we're young and less experienced and less committed to anything other than ourselves and our own experiences, is when we're expected to have these serious jobs and we're expected to go to school and learn all of this stuff and know what we want to be when we grow up. And there's so many things that are expected of us. And then when you get to 65, 70, 75 years old, and it's time to retire, well, that time is when a lot of people are like, I'm gonna go see the world, well, you're gonna go see the world, but because now you're obviously a little bit more senior in life, for a lot of folks, they're not quite as mobile as they once were, maybe they've had a hip replacement, or a knee replacement, etc. Are you going to go on some crazy, awesome hike on a wahoo, and climb to the top of the lighthouse trail? Maybe, maybe not. Versus if you were to do all of that travel and fun stuff when you were younger, and you got to experience a lot of that stuff; A, you would be able to enjoy it more, but B, you would have less pressure of, hey, I've got this really serious job where I need to be leading all these people, or I'm responsible for all of these environmental impacts, et cetera, et cetera. And so, it's interesting, I think that there's some level of like reverse life almost, that we're living where we do all of the really fun stuff when we're older and most of us can afford to do all this stuff, because we've worked and saved and are now retired. And then, when we're younger, we're doing all of these things that maybe are-
Erica D'Eramo 27:37
Require wisdom.
Jason 27:39
Yeah, a lot of it, even, look at what you did in the work that you've done, where I mean it was no joke. I mean, it was like, it's serious business, not that most jobs aren't, but, there's a lot of, I think there's just a lot of stuff that we do that is almost in reverse, when we could truly enjoy it when we could be taking bigger risks, and potentially having more fun, is when we're like, alright, I gotta go to work, and I only have 40 hours of vacation to use this year. So, I'm gonna have to work the whole year.
Erica D'Eramo 28:12
You're lucky geez. 40 hours?
Jason 28:12
And, again, I think that's what, but I mean, back to your earlier point, there are a lot of people, I mean when you look at people in the service industry specifically, having worked for a significant number of years in the service industry, it's tough and when you look at somebody who is working at a job where they're working potentially 40 hours a week, and maybe they're making federal minimum wage, so, $7.25, maybe they're lucky enough to be making more than that somewhere. But for a lot of folks, it's tough to be able to change that situation and to be able to jump out of something. You can't just walk away from a job and be financially secure when you've been living paycheck to paycheck for the past 10 or 15 years. And if you can't make ends meet, you don't necessarily have that privilege to say, hey, this job doesn't really serve me anymore, I'm gonna go somewhere where I can feel respected and where I can be taken care of, unfortunately, for a lot of people, they don't really have that opportunity, and they don't have that option necessarily, without having some larger support system. And so, I think that, again, looking back on my own experiences in talking a little bit about what you had mentioned earlier on people having that, you have that relationship with an employer and the employer having a relationship with the individual. It is very different than it once was, and I think that, where one of the key learnings for me, I guess I could say on that was I had spent 10 years working for a company and I decided that the job no longer served me and I wanted to do something else. And after having been there for 10 years, I did the respectable thing and I provided a notice, and I wasn't allowed to work out my notice. And I was told that I could collect all of my things, and that they would pay me out for my time, and that I could go home. And to me, I was kind of like, wait, what? I had built all of these things into the schedule, and I wanted to make sure that I had gotten all of these pieces cleaned up and done for the next person coming in because I knew somebody else would take over, I knew somebody else would be put into the role.
But I expected the opportunity to transition and I expected the opportunity to have that transition period for my team, and for my customers, etc. And I wasn't allowed to have that, it was really at that moment that I knew that I wouldn't do that, that I just wouldn't do it again, and not that I wouldn't be committed to a job and not that I wouldn't be committed to a team or to a purpose, but that I wouldn't allow the job to be my entire identity. And I think that that's where even though I had other things going on outside of work, and obviously, as I mentioned earlier, I had school, etc, that I was doing, when I look at the 10 years that I spent with that organization, and the blood, sweat and tears, and the countless hours that I put into that to then basically, have my butt kicked out the door. At the end of it, I was like, you know what, I'm not gonna do that anymore. And so, I've become that person now, where you know, and I think now, obviously, being in an HR role, too, sure, I realized that HR has the responsibility to be fiscally responsible and part of being a great HR practitioner, is seeing it from both sides of the spectrum. You see it from the employee side, but you also see it from the employer side. However, one of the things that I have learned is that if an organization provides you with benefits, such as vacation time or PTO and general holidays, etc, take your time, take your time, because you can't get that back. And there's so much value that can be placed in that. And again, I think we've learned through the pandemic, that when you don't allow yourself the opportunity to recharge and to relax and to step away, it can become really taxing and challenging. And from a mental health standpoint, specifically, the past couple of years, from a mental health standpoint, it's just, it's staggering what we've learned from an employee resource standpoint, and from companies with AAPs, and whatnot, just the usage of those. And I think that, again, when you look at, if you have benefits that are available to you use the benefits, and again, I know, that's also coming from a place of privilege, where not everybody has that luxury, not everybody has the opportunity to use their vacation, et cetera. But I have become one of those-
Erica D'Eramo 33:09
You can do it.
Jason 33:10
Absolutely, I've become one of those people where I share with everybody if you're able to do this, and if you have time that's available, where you can step away, and disconnect and recharge, and not like this, like the traditional US version of recharging of like, hey, I'm on vacation, but I'll be checking periodically to make sure, no, like literally take a vacation, disconnect, and even if it's only for a few days, like disconnect, and allow yourself the opportunity to just not work, which is just, I think, we've learned a lot about that over the past couple of years. And again, and looking in my own experience, now that I've been pretty far removed from that time when I had left that role. I should have taken all my time, and I should have, I shouldn't have worked for- I mean, there were times where I work 20 hour days at that job, and it's like, when I look back on it now, I'm like hmm.
Erica D'Eramo 34:05
I mean, it's not personal when you get laid off, you know, it's always like, oh, it's not personal, it's a business decision. But it sometimes feels like it's personal when you put in your notice, then it's personal.
Jason 34:20
Absolutely. Yeah, I mean, there's just- and I get it that there's a purpose behind things and obviously, sometimes when you leave a role you become a security risk or you know, etc. I mean, I obviously understand that aspect of it too, but yeah, it's always interesting.
Erica D'Eramo 34:41
The part about like taking your space too, and taking vacation; A, you're giving other people in the organization permission to take vacation too, you're normalizing actually disconnecting from work. So, I'm always a proponent of that if you can do it, do it and if you're a manager, ensure your people are doing that as well and that it's not just lip service. But the other piece too is, legitimately, if you're in an organization where somebody cannot disconnect for a week, that is an inherently vulnerable organization that has some issues at its root cause. And I think oftentimes, when we feel like we can't disconnect, that's often or when employees feel like they can't disconnect, it's often rooted in a sense of insecurity around, and I don't mean, insecurity isn't like, a flaw there, I mean, people don't feel secure that if they detach, that their value won't be questioned, because the organization can run without them. Like they should be there because they add value to the organization. But it's not healthy for any organization if one person, what if that person got hit by a car, or, like, that's not a robust, resilient organization, if people can't take time away, and the organization can't cope.
Jason 36:08
Right.
Erica D'Eramo 36:08
So, all of this, when we talk about kind of leaving roles and leaving jobs, brings us to the topic of like how? So, we mentioned some people who don't have the privilege or ability to just go to grad school at night, or switch jobs, because they don't find it fulfilling. And maybe they're in service roles and feel like there aren't a lot of options out there to change industries. So, what's some advice or some thoughts you have for folks in that situation?
Jason 36:42
Sure. I think that one of the biggest things, and I know sometimes it's easier said than done, but I truly think that some of the best resources that I've had in my own journey through this is you have to have people who can help you. And so, whether it's a mentor, or if it's a family member who's had a similar experience, or a previous professor, or a previous co-worker, somebody who has had some level of similar experience, I think it's such a great resource in being able to have some transition and being able to grow and to change. I think that, again, when I look at my own situation, as I had mentioned, I spent about 20 years in retail, and then decided that I wanted to do something else and so, I had gone back to school. Interestingly, when I started back to school, I was a criminal justice major. And one of the women who I used to go to the gym with was like, you don't want to be a police officer, like, come on, if you do that, she goes, I truly think that you're gonna probably start off and you're gonna have to go be a police officer, and I was like, you know what, you're right, I don't want to be a police officer. And I was like, so and she kind of took me under her wing. And she was actually a professor at the Labor and Employment Relations school at Penn State. It was like, I think, given your experiences that you should look at this LER program to see where it can take you. And so, even though I had already kind of jumped back into that academic process, somebody helped me to realize that maybe it wasn't really the path that I should be on or that I wanted to be on. And so, I think that, again, if I hadn't had that conversation with her, and or she hadn't had that conversation with me, I may have continued on that path and then graduated, and then potentially not been happy with another degree path and or life.
And so, I think trying to find people who you can connect with and who you can ask questions, I think on the other side of that, I think that people who work in the service industry actually have kind of a leg up on this on a lot of other people, because they do get to meet so many people. And I think that, obviously sure in this short staffed world that we live in right now, it may be a little bit different, it may look different, because in a restaurant you may not have the amount of time to spend with every single party that you once did. But when you have people coming in, especially people who are regulars, and finding out what they do, or who they work for or what their purpose is outside of being at your restaurant, I think that there's some big wins that can come from that. And I think that being able to connect with people and being able to kind of find somebody who can help you on that journey, because of this, it is a little scary. I mean, I won't lie, in my own situation, again, spending 20 years in retail, and then going back to school and then, truth be told, after I had gotten my LER degree from Penn State, I was rejected from so many HR jobs that I applied to, it was so frustrating, because I couldn't get anybody to look at me as being anything other than a retail manager, not realizing that, as a retail manager, I was responsible for hiring, for training, for documentation, for onboarding, for termination, for customer service. There's so many pieces of it that it was like, sure, my resume says store manager, and has said store manager for X number of years. However, understanding that in that spectrum, there's so much other meat for lack of a better word, that is there, I mean, there's so much that a retail manager does that isn't just folding clothes, or isn't just making coffee or isn't just serving a smoothie, there's just so much that goes into it, and being able to find somebody who aligned with that was nearly impossible. I mean, and again, I applied for hundreds of roles, and sure the job market was different than it is now, however, when you're looking at the multitude of applications that I did, it felt like a full time job applying for these roles and trying to transition into that field. And so, again, I was fortunate to have some mentorship and some guidance, but being able to navigate through that was pretty tough, and was really actually the reason why after I had all of that struggle going through, and again, connecting with a couple other people and offering, asking for advice, and having them offer suggestions was, I guess I'm gonna go to grad school. And so, that's where I then went to grad school, and that was really, for me, was the golden ticket, being able to go to grad school and navigate through that process, really is what has been my springboard to this. However, again, going back to somebody in the service industry, or somebody who maybe doesn't have the luxury of spending 45 or $50,000 to go back to grad school or more, finding people who can help you to understand what are the options out there, finding somebody to help you work on your resume, finding somebody to help you to use a service, like ONET, or something like that, where you can find tips and tools for your resume. How can you really connect the dots between what you did and what you want to do? And that was actually one of the things that when I had connected with an advisor at Penn State, which anybody who's gone to school, pretty much every school has advising programs out there, but..
Erica D'Eramo 42:56
Oh yeah, definitely use them.
Jason 42:58
Absolutely.
Erica D'Eramo 42:59
A lot of students don't use them, but...
Jason 43:00
Oh, absolutely.
Erica D'Eramo 43:01
At UT even for the Executive MBA Program, I mean, they had a really, really robust advisory system.
Jason 43:10
Yeah and when I worked with the advisor at Penn State, one of the things that they had suggested was take a look at everything that you've done, and take a look at everything that you've accomplished, not only from a personal and professional side, but also from an academic side. But now, really thinking, think about everything that you want to be. And you need to write your resume to be what you want to be not what you've done. Because ideally, you're trying to show a potential new employer, this is what I want to do for your organization. And yes, it's great, and they want to see everything that you've done to date. However, they also want to know, what can you do for them? And how can you blend yourself into this role? And so, that was some really great advice that I got, again, through the advising was, just really tweaking my resume and tweaking my own language, even through interviewing, and through being able to project myself from a standpoint of, hey, here's all the things that I've done and here are all the things that I'm passionate about, and here are all the things that I'm doing and this is what I can do to help you and this is what I can do to help your group etc. So, it's an interesting journey, and I won't lie it is frustrating, and it is demoralizing sometimes. And again, when I look back at the journey that I had from being in that retail management world, to then trying to get somebody to take me seriously as an HR practitioner. It was pretty frustrating and, so I think trying to find, again, find people who can help you and really also finding your path in it and finding your joy in it and finding truly what you want out of it. And because everybody can give you their version of, well, this is what you should be, and this is what you should do and this is what success looks like etc. But is that what success looks like to you? Is success a job title and a salary or is success being able to wake up in the morning with a smile on your face and go to work and love your job and love your co-workers and love the work that you do? And then go home at the end of the day and disconnect, and for some people, it's probably a little bit of each of those aspects. And obviously, we all recognize and realize that without pay it's tough to have a great life, because unfortunately in a capitalist society, that's an important piece, however, is it the be all end all? I think a lot of us are realizing now that it's really not and trying to have some blended approach to that. But I digress.
Erica D'Eramo 45:59
No, I mean, I think it's right on topic, I think the idea of working with someone, particularly finding someone who has had a similar transition to what you envision and want, and seeing that it's possible, I know, my mentor coach, I sought her out because I knew that she made a transition from the energy industry into coaching and a successful one and so she was able to shine as an example to me that it is feasible, it is possible. But that also brings me to a point that people come with their own biases and baggage as well. And so, sometimes finding an independent coach, actually, there are a lot of people who specialize in career transitions. And we'll ask those questions to kind of dig into what is success for you, what would good look like? And for people who would say, well, success would mean replicating my current salary and probably this next tier of leadership, that would be success for me. And answers like that feel like a midway point to me that feels like a means to something else. So, what does that give you would be my next question, usually, does that give you validation? Does that give you financial security to be able to retire early? Does that give you like, your kids college fund? And that's what's really motivating or, you know, evaluating to you. But if you asked, like, what does that give you, and the answer is, I don't know, then I usually end up asking, well, who gave that to you? Who gave you that goal of the success and the success being the paycheck and the title? Like, usually, we've inherited that from someone else, either from family, from our own previous leaders from society telling us that that's what we need, but we've often borrowed that from someone else, or someone else has defined that for us. It can be really, really tough to kind of define for yourself what a successful life looks like, and then sort of ask, like, is this really mine? Or is it something that I'm parroting back because I've just taken it for granted? Everyone around me is correct in what they want.
Jason 48:27
Right, absolutely, no, no, I totally agree. And I think that that's something where, again, I think over these past couple of years here, I think that so many people have realized that, like, wow, this entire path that I've been on, this isn't my path. And I think that even though as somebody who obviously employs people, and who is responsible for the well being of employees, I'm not immune to the fact that, I mean, my organization, we've lost a few people just like many others have. And so I think that there's nobody who's immune to, hey, you know what, I don't think that this is a fit for me anymore, I'm gonna go somewhere else. And I think that my organization, I think that we've done a fantastic job of trying to pivot and make sure that we're changing what we're offering, and that we are having more robust benefits and doing what we can to be a more attractive employer, offering parental leave, and et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. However, I think that as the years of the pandemic have continued to go on, I think that so many people, whether it's through loss of family or loss of friends or or even loss of a job, etc. Obviously, we've seen things just kind of spiraling in a completely different pattern and path and speed than we've ever seen and I think that as a result, I think a lot of people have really re-evaluated and said, hey, you know what, this was the path that I've been on and I don't know that it's my path anymore, and that's okay. And obviously, there have been people who have kind of had that path redirected for them through the layoff or through job elimination, et cetera, et cetera, or maybe, I mean, I know that I've spoken with many people who have lost a number of family members to COVID. And, like, your whole perspective changes with things like that. So, I think that it's just been, it's been a very interesting couple of years, where I think that a lot of people have really just changed their perspective and their outlook and trying to really understand what makes them tick, and what doesn't make them tick. And I think that again, looking back on trying to figure out what serves you and what brings you joy. I think that for me, it's more important than any of the other pieces of a work identity anymore as like are you happy, like, are you truly happy? Because if you're not, find how to be happy, like, life is far too short to wake up every morning and go somewhere where you're miserable. And again, that's coming a little bit of, or potentially a lot of from a place of privilege, where not everybody can do that. But at the same time, even if somebody who maybe can't just abandon a career or abandon a role, start looking and start seeing what's out there and or connecting with somebody, whether it's an advisor, or in most states you can reach out to, like in Pennsylvania, you have PA CareerLink. There's so many resources that are out there, many of which are completely underused, and they're eager to help people. I think that there's just, there are a lot of resources. And I think, sometimes it's just about knowing what's available too, I think that a lot of people probably don't know that there are things like free advising from your college or university or things like Pennsylvania CareerLink, et cetera, where you can get help, and some of them even provide training and expanded learning opportunities, etc. So...
Erica D'Eramo 52:26
Yeah, resume reviews, resume workshops, like all sorts of stuff.
Jason 52:31
Absolutely.
Erica D'Eramo 52:32
Yeah, I think like finding those resources is hugely important and starting to ask, like, what is the driver here, what is important to me, because even if you're in a situation where you're like, I can't, because I have to stay here to pay the bills.
Jason 52:49
Sure.
Erica D'Eramo 52:50
Or to pay for the kids college, right? Like to do something, at least you understand where that sits in its role that it's playing. So, this job is playing the role of paying the bills, it is not playing the role of defining your identity, it is acting for a greater purpose, and being able to say what that is, I think, is really valuable, because then you understand that that purpose could be met other ways, right? It's not just through this organization. And when an opportunity comes along, that could also pay the bills, then you're ready, and you're poised to take it.
Jason 53:30
Right.
Erica D'Eramo 53:31
So, when we get to that point that we want to shift, we know, okay, this isn't serving me, I'm gonna start looking. From your perspective, I guess, both as someone who went through this and also somebody who looks at hiring, we talked about the incredible skill set that you gain from service, or from really any job you're doing, you're probably getting so many more skills than you realize. What are your thoughts and advice around that, how people can frame their expertise or their skills?
Jason 54:07
You know, again, I think that, using a resource like ONET, ONET online, is a site that you can type in almost any job name, whether it's store manager or human resources director, etc. And it's going to pull up more or less like a standardized job description. And from that job description and some of them are like, a couple hundred lines of text, I mean, they're pretty in depth and uses a lot of your Bureau of Labor Statistics, etc. data, and utilizing a site like that where you can pull a lot of keywords and where you can understand phrases and it gives you a lot of that. It's mostly task based, and it's mostly looking at roles and responsibilities, but then really layering on top of that and saying, hey, this is what this role is, but this is this is also all of the stuff that I've done that maybe doesn't fully correlate to it. But that would potentially make me a more real or legitimate hire for a company. And so, an example of that is, for mine, I have on my resume, specifically, I have a lot of the things that I've done, but I also have future looking pieces on it. And I also have things like volunteer experiences that I've done, and there's pieces that you can add onto a resume that aren't necessarily just like, hey, I've done this, so many jobs now, more than ever, are really looking at, they want to see data. And so if you're a person who can add data onto your resume on like, hey, I improve this metric by this percentage, or I reduce the overhead on X project by X number of dollars, or, I was able to reduce our time to hire from three weeks back to 12 days or 10 days or something. There's so much emphasis now, more so than ever, to my knowledge anyhow, where being able to have that data on there, and being able to say, hey, here's a very specific verifiable data point where I can show to you that I helped this organization, or I helped this job to become better, and I helped this job to achieve more by spending less or to save money, or I allowed people to- in a medical setting, for example, I was able to improve my patient's way of life by X, doing this to- being able to just have quantifiable data on a resume, I think is just is so key now. And I think also just realizing that when you are applying for roles, know that almost every job you're applying to, unless it's a relatively small organization, almost every job that you're applying to now a computer is analyzing your resume. And so, if you've got a resume that is not very easily analyzed by an AI system, it's probably not gonna get looked at, and it's probably gonna get filtered into the do not hire pile.
Do I think that that's the best way for organizations to hire people? Absolutely not. When you are seeing jobs where there's two, three, four, 500 applicants per role. Is it realistic for some of these larger companies to sit there and go through every application? Probably not. And so, is there a better way out there? There has to be. Have we found it yet? I don't think so. Will somebody find it soon, I hope. There's just so many variables on it, and again, when you look at the way that we apply for jobs now, and when you look at from an applicant standpoint, when you are sending these resumes out, or when you are applying for roles, again, try to think about it from the aspect of, hey, a computer is analyzing this, I need to make sure whether it's through the use of hashtags or meta tags, et cetera, trying to make sure that when a system is searching it, that it's in a straight line, that you've got commas in there. You want a computer to be able to analyze it and say, hey, this is somebody who we need to talk to, again, because you don't have an HR manager necessarily sitting there going through 3,000 applications, it's just not realistic anymore. Again, if it's a small company, probably realistic, but outside of that, it's probably not going to happen. And then on the flip side of that, I think from a hiring manager standpoint, one of the things that I tried to do, and I have a little bit of a luxury because of the fact that we are a small company, and that most of the jobs that I'm posting, we're getting between 10 and 100 applicants for. I have the luxury of being able to go through and look at them and spend a couple minutes on each one. And so, one of the things that I do when I'm looking at resumes is I'm not as concerned about if somebody has employment gaps, like maybe they had a baby or maybe they stepped away from work for a bit or maybe they had a medical situation or who knows? I think so many times we get so hung up on these old school problems on resumes, and it's like, sure, maybe somebody was away from work for a little bit. But maybe they had a serious health problem. And does that disqualify them from having a great new role? I don't know.
Erica D'Eramo 1:00:07
Or maybe they were actually doing something that expanded their horizons?
Jason 1:00:11
Absolutely. Absolutely.
Erica D'Eramo 1:00:12
And experince that will bring value to the role.
Jason 1:00:14
Yeah, for sure.
Erica D'Eramo 1:00:15
Like having kids.
Jason 1:00:16
Right, like having a baby. Or maybe they took a sabbatical, and they didn't list all the details of it, or maybe they went on a missions trip or, for some people, I mean, realistically, maybe they were incarcerated? Well, you're not going to necessarily put you know ex county jail on your resume, however, like, should that disqualify somebody from a role? Depending on the severity, probably not. Depending on what it is that happened and your state's laws and the roles, specifics, etc. , probably not, but I mean, again, it's one of those things where I think for so long, as we've looked at resumes when we've seen these gaps on there specifically has been like, oh, there's a gap, we can't hire that person. It's like, well, why, outside of that, I think really looking at resumes and trying to, again, look at things like in my situation, for example, now as an HR director, if I were hiring somebody for an HR generalist role, or an HR manager, and I see all of this direct relative experience, even though somebody's job title might not have been HR coordinator, or HR manager, if they've got a large number of years of very transferable skills, and I think back to earlier, when you were mentioning about for yourself, going back and getting your yoga certification. When you look at things like that, there's a lot of dedication that goes into that, and there's a lot of training, and there's a lot of discipline, and so, sure, you may not be running your own yoga studio, you may not have a worldwide franchise of fitness centers, however, you have a lot of skill and knowledge and experiences that you can bring from that entire aspect of your life and you can apply it to other pieces. A lot of people who are practicing yoga have a lot of patience, and they have a lot of inner peace, and they know how to relax, and they know how to find their center. And there's a lot of pieces that you can transfer that may not necessarily be vividly obvious. But I think that that's part of our role as being HR practitioners on how do we look at a resume? And how do we say, hey, this person has done all of these roles, and even though the job descriptions and the job name doesn't line up, wow, they might be a really great fit. And I think that culture fit is really something for me. And when I'm looking at applications, you're trying to find somebody who could potentially be an awesome culture fit is almost more important than their education, or their previous experiences, or their previous roles, or any gaps in their employment or et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. That piece, especially now with so many people working from home and being able to be self starters and not being micromanaged, etc, trying to find somebody who can fit your culture that is just critical. I mean, you can't overlook that anymore. And again, I think more so than ever before, really trying to find out how do we hire for culture fit and how do you find that? And can you really find that on a piece of paper? Or does that need to be deciphered through further interaction and really just, really internalizing what the application has and then having great conversations with the individual etc. So, that was a lot, I don't know that I breathed through all of that. So I'll pause for a minute.
Erica D'Eramo 1:04:20
I do want to talk more about how we can tackle this from the perspective of the HR practitioner or the hiring manager and those strategic elements but just to come back from- for the individuals who are looking to do this and looking to frame that perspective or that experience. I'm hearing this thread around taking sort of a macro view of what you've done and highlighting elements where there was growth, where they're learning the ability to learn and pick up something new or teach yourself something new. That's something that we're all looking for, especially if you're changing industries, that self starter piece around taking responsibility for some improvement, some element of the business or the organization that you demonstrated improvement on that exists in the service industry, that exists in retail, it could be that you implemented a new scheduling process, or it could be that you implemented even a new dishwashing process that then reduced turnaround time, or allows you to flip tables faster. So, all those little things are those paying for people who are looking at resumes. And the example of the yoga instructor, right, most yoga instructors are essentially independent contractors, right? So, they're running their own P&L, they're running their own marketing, they're running their own contracting, and they're having to dabble in all of these other entrepreneurial areas in order to carry on their business, usually with pretty tight margins as well. So, I think that if the folks looking at your resume won't be thinking in those broader terms that Jason is describing and they they might not be taking as progressive of a view or, as open minded of a view, you can do that for them. And I've heard so many people that really discredited their own experience and said, well, I was just XYZ, like why would somebody in this other industry hire me?
Jason 1:06:43
Sure.
Erica D'Eramo 1:06:44
And that's when I can start rattling off like, well, you can handle irate customers with a smile, and you can work well under pressure. And you can, I mean, how many tables did you turn over in a night? Like, wow, that's impressive. So, things that people don't normally think about, because they take it for granted that they do it day in and day out. So, sometimes they need a fresh set of eyes, I think, to kind of play that role back to them. But if you don't have that person, like, try to do it for yourself.
Jason 1:07:18
Yeah. Yeah. And I think that that, again, is where, I know, I keep using the ONET site, but I think that that's where a site like ONET is really helpful, because, again, from my own experiences, when I wanted to transition out of being a retail manager, and I knew that I wanted to be an HR generalist, initially, well, I looked at the HR generalist job description on ONET, and I printed it out. And at the advice of this career counselor from Penn State, I went through and I highlighted every single thing that I do. And sure, I'm a store manager, but I'm highlighting everything that an HR generalist does that I do in my current role. And then as I created and crafted my new resume, because I scrapped pretty much the entire thing and started over after I realized that, okay, after all of these hundred plus applications with zero interviews, clearly, I need to do something differently. And so when I went through, and I highlighted all of the aspects of that HR generalist role that I currently did, I had a whole new resume, and I had a whole new resume that was completely centered around being a human resources generalist, versus being a store manager. So, sure, my resume said store manager at X company, from this date to this date, but every single piece of substantial information was all about HR.
And so every single job task, every single metric, everything that I was sharing was completely centered around being an HR generalist, even though, again, it said store manager, there was nothing on there about serving customers, or there was nothing on- it was all about people, and it was all about hiring and it was all about completing I-9's, and it was all about reducing time to hire, and it was all about increasing or decreasing turnover and increasing retention and increasing training metrics. But I would have never really thought about that, I don't think until I had that interaction with the advisor, which is, as strange as that may sound, especially with somebody coming from an HR training and education standpoint, but it's really not something that you know, until you're trying to break out of one industry and into another, you get in this groove of, I mean, I had several different roles as different companies as being a store manager and district manager. And so every single role that I was applying, I was just applying as I'm a store manager or a district manager. And then it was like, oh, wait, I can't apply with that same mentality anymore, because I need to now show them even though my job titles and my tenures didn't change, everything that I did needed to be from a different lens, and everything I did from a different angle. And that I think, is where, again, to your point of if you're working in a restaurant, and you've improved efficiency with dishwashing, or you've improved efficiency with tip sorting, or cashing out, or counting a drawer at the end of the night, or balancing the safe, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. If you can bring a lot of that you've done and turn it into a success story, that success story is what people like. When I'm hiring people, that success story is what I'm looking for more so than, hey, this person has X number of years of progressive responsibility in a retail setting or in a restaurant setting. Is that important to have that progressive responsibility? 1,000%. I mean, nobody will say that it's not, however, is that the be all end all? Also no. And so, I think being able to have those success stories of, hey, here's something that I did that really added value to my current role. And then being able to tell the story of you know what, when I worked at this restaurant, I did this and it really added value, and it made the owner of the restaurant so much more lean or so much more profitable, or so much more productive, et cetera. And I think I could do something similar for you. And that's where I think that a lot of people kind of missed that as where is like, how do you take something that is transferable and how do you tell the story of it being transferable? Because as much as we all probably don't really know, like, we're all storytellers. Like every single one of us, every single one of us, sure, it's not the storytelling in the sense of what it once was, where we're all sitting around a campfire on the wagon train. However, we're all storytellers in the sense of like right now, I'm telling you my story, and sure, we're not sitting around here with with cups of porridge or anything like that. However, we're all storytellers. And so I think that sometimes it's about knowing how to tell your story. And I think that, again, is where using resources that are available to kind of broaden your understanding of who you are and what you've done and again, where you want to go. I think that piece of like, this is where I am today. But in two years, this is where I'm going to be in being able to then take that vision that you've created for yourself and actually act on it. And it doesn't need to be acted upon in a sense of, I'm going to go to school again, it can be acted upon on the sense of, hey, you know what, I'm going to find free YouTube videos, and I'm going to watch them and I'm going to learn and I'm going to internalize or, hey, you know what, I'm going to jump on LinkedIn, and I'm going to try to connect with some people in the industry that I want to join, or I'm going to jump on LinkedIn and I'm going to try to find some people who have the job title that I want, and I'm going to try to connect with them. Is everybody going to accept your connection? Absolutely not. Are some of them going to be? Absolutely. Reach out, send some messages, I think it's about kind of throwing yourself out there and it's about, again, whether it's through a professional organization, like a Career Link or something like that. Or if it's through LinkedIn or even just browsing job ads and seeing companies, if there's a company that somebody really wants to work for, find somebody who works at that company and try to connect with them and find out like, hey, I really want to work for your company. I love what you guys do, I think that the work that you do is next level. I love what you do for the community, etc. I wouldn't be involved in whether, you're not asking them for a job at that point. You're not saying please hire me. Maybe you are, that's okay too. But you're not necessarily saying please hire me. But what you are saying is like, hey, I have an interest in what you what you're doing and I have an interest in what everybody at your organization is projecting to the public, help me to be a part of that or help me to understand what can I do. Like how can I make myself more marketable? A lot of people will help, a lot of people want to see others succeed and then bring people into the fold. So, there's just so many different ways, I think, to kind of throw yourself out there.
Erica D'Eramo 1:14:47
I think also when you say to somebody I want to know more about your experience with this entity or like I want to learn what it's been like for you working at this company.
Jason 1:14:56
Yeah.
Erica D'Eramo 1:14:58
We all love talking about ourselves and you're not asking for anything other than showing interest in somebody's journey and their experience. So, I think that that's also a good way to have that conversation.
Jason 1:15:11
Definitely.
Erica D'Eramo 1:15:11
I think that there are non traditional ways to get experience in places. I have a dream of one day opening a restaurant. And that has been a dream for over a decade, right? So, obviously, I don't have experience there. So, I went out and just started asking, like, I found an organization that I wanted to learn from that I really admired and said, can I do an unpaid internship? There are internships available in different organizations, and you can be an adult, you can be outside of school and still do internships, and some of them are unpaid, some of them are paid, you know? Or you can moonlight or you can apprentice in some roles. And maybe it's just for a couple hours a week, but you'll get your foot in the door, you'll start to get connections, and you'll be able to see what's going on. You could even just ask for a tour of a facility, if there is an area that you have interest in. So, yeah, it doesn't need to be a full career change. I definitely recommend piloting to the extent possible to make sure, like you said you were going to go into criminal justice and then realized that there was something else that would be more fulfilling for you. So, ways that you can sort of test out before you jump all in to these new career paths. People are way more willing to be creative about things than I think we realize, so. And speaking of those people that are like the ones that are deciding whether they want to be creative or not, you had touched on some of these more strategic kind of issues around hiring and what you look for when you're hiring. And that was another area I wanted to kind of view this from. And the reason that it's important to me, from a Two Piers perspective, as you know, a public benefit corporation as a mission driven organization. I think that it's highly tied, I think that the way that we screen people out of the talent pool, because of their non traditional backgrounds, or because of their previous work history or industry has a lot of parallels with the ways that we inadvertently or intentionally screen people out due to biases around race, ethnicity, gender, whether they have kids, disability, some of these things that play in and are compounding to right? The socio economic elements of this mean that there are groups of people that we see being denied opportunities because of their work history, or their pathway that they've taken, but that was what was available to them many times because of biases and disparity in society. So...
Jason 1:18:20
Right.
Erica D'Eramo 1:18:21
With all that...
Jason 1:18:22
Yeah.
Erica D'Eramo 1:18:23
With all that, what do you think needs to change?
Jason 1:18:28
So, I think that that is, I think you're spot on with that. I think that there are certainly a lot of components to recruiting and just the entire talent structure that certainly are not set up to be to the advantage of the of the job seeker. And I think that really when you look at some of the more recent EEOC situations and even the Americans with Disabilities Act, the overarching legal challenges that the talent and recruiting and even just employment in general, a lot of the legal challenges that they've faced relative to people with disabilities, etc, it is very challenging, and I think that it's challenging, not only from the applicant standpoint in trying to make themselves marketable and trying to compete with everybody else, because as much as we all who work in HR, and in business in general, I think that most of us, myself certainly, want to be as equitable as possible and try to provide opportunities to everybody and try to see everybody as an individual, but at the end of the day, the unfortunate piece of it is is that for most companies they're looking for something super specific. And sometimes I think that that specificity in their search is really omitting people who could further their cause. Because they're so focused on finding this needle in a hay field, because it's not a stack anymore, it's literally a field. Because there are, I think there's like four, I think I had just read the other day, there are approximately 4 million job openings right now and 2 million jobs searchers or it's a staggering number, don't quote me on the number. But when you've got a four to one ratio of jobs to job seekers you are literally looking for somebody who is potentially not even out there. And so, as you narrow your search, and as you know, as an organization says, these are the 12 non negotiable characteristics of this individual. Really they're eliminating so many people, I was one of those people who was consistently being eliminated because of my job title. And so, I think that, really from a job seeker standpoint, it's really about, again, making sure that when we're re-crafting our resumes, or when we are building our brand new first resume, that we get as much on there that is searchable as possible from an AI standpoint, and really being able to paint this picture of ourselves that doesn't force us, I guess, into a corner and doesn't force us into a non hireable, or undesirable mold, or picture or fold, however, you want to phrase it, but instead, really is looking at, okay, this is who I am as an individual, these are the things that I've done, this is what I can bring to the table, my resume is really searchable, I have a lot of keywords on here. I think a great example from a keyword standpoint, and from an AI standpoint, is for somebody who wants to get into the HR field, specifically since that's where I most recently went, really any platform that you've used, and so, if you've worked at an organization that uses ADP, for example, if you feel like you're pretty comfortable with ADP, do a little bit of research on the platforms that ADP offers, and try to get some of that on there. Even if you've only been an end user of something, if you can add those keywords on to their, whether it's ADP or its Oracle, PeopleSoft or whatever system it is Bamboo HR, or Workday, etc. Even if you have like some level of familiarity with it, I'm trying to link some of that on. But again, kind of going back to your original piece of the question, I think that it's about trying to make yourself as marketable as possible.
Erica D'Eramo 1:23:18
Yeah. So, I want to talk about those people with the biases. Because I think that that's where the change really needs to happen. Like, I want to talk about what needs to be different in those systems.
Jason 1:23:34
Sure.
Erica D'Eramo 1:23:35
We all think that our example is the one.
Jason 1:23:39
Right, right.
Erica D'Eramo 1:23:41
It should look like because we especially for the in group, for the dominant group, they've been successful, so, the next person who was going to be successful is somebody who has had a similar path to them, right, that looks like them, like that's kind of, we recognize that those biases are at play.
Jason 1:24:02
Right, exactly.
Erica D'Eramo 1:24:03
And I think you mentioned the part around these, like, really specific needle in a haystack requirements. And I think that's tied to it, I think, like, I got an MBA, and I was good in this. So, therefore, our applicant needs an MBA, but do they really, what are they doing that they need an MBA for? Like, you're gonna have them working Excel spreadsheets all day.
Jason 1:24:28
And realistically, I mean, in a lot of roles now, I mean, for a lot of people, what do you need a bachelor's degree for? I mean, I'm not saying that, I mean, I would never say don't get an education. Excuse me, but I think that when you look at a lot of these roles, for a lot of these roles, what do you need a bachelor's degree for? And I think that that's where a lot of roles now are actually removing that requirement because they've realized that it's just not realistic, why would you especially, like a disenfranchised group or a group that has been marginalized for so long, whether it's through your lack of education or living in a disenfranchised community or living in an area that struggles with with poverty or other inequalities, why would you continue to hold those folks down? Versus saying, hey, you know what, there's probably some really fantastic applicants in this group, let's go find them. And so, I think that when, and looking back to your earlier question on how do we flip the conversation from, hey, change your resume to allow yourself to not be queer or to allow yourself to not be Black or Asian, etc. I think that on the flip of that is, there is just such a massive shift that has to happen from a hiring manager standpoint, where people are trained and coached. And it's almost a complete reinvention of the application talent structure where we almost, in my view, need to kind of, like, go back to the very beginning of like, how do we actually screen for applications? How do we actually screen for fit? Do we have our AI system? Like, do we have it go through and remove everybody's names? Do we...
Oh yeah. Now there's like tech that removes so much of it.
Do we remove their name, their address? Are there pieces of it that we can remove, so that when a hiring manager looks at it they're literally only looking at experiences, education and non identifiable characteristics? Yeah, those exist out there. Should we have to do that? I don't think we should. But however, at the same time when you've got folks for their entire life who have been screening and hiring applicants, and for their entire life, they've been looking at it and saying, well, I don't think that person is going to fit into our culture, we're not going to hire them. We're not even going to call them.
Erica D'Eramo 1:27:35
Yeah, it's also filling. All of your successful people looks like what you screened for.
Jason 1:27:40
For sure. And I think it's bigger than changing the conversation on it, it's changing the entire structure on who can we hire that will truly make our organization better?
Erica D'Eramo 1:27:56
Right.
Jason 1:27:57
And I think that when you look at the whole DEI structure, we're moving there. We're not there now. We're moving there, and by we, I mean the US and society in general, we're moving there. But have we gotten ourselves to a point where we've truly moved the needle? Or have we made really cool Instagram stories for our group?
Erica D'Eramo 1:28:25
I wonder if you listen to my Pay Gap Bot episode preceding this?
Jason 1:28:31
I did not, does that reference specifically?
Erica D'Eramo 1:28:34
Oh, yeah.
Jason 1:28:35
Yeah.
Erica D'Eramo 1:28:35
Specifically.
Jason 1:28:36
Yeah. But it's so true. It's like, I mean, even like, when you look at things like Pride Month, and I mean, Pride Month is so much bigger than sticking a rainbow on a pair of shorts and selling shorts. I mean, it's like, is it one month out of the year, like are we doing Pride Month one month out of the year? And then the rest of the month, it's like, we're donating to anti gay groups, or are we doing Black history month every February and then for the rest of it we're like making contributions to people who are intentionally disenfranchising the Black community. Like, that's not how it works, but unfortunately, it is how it works.
Erica D'Eramo 1:29:14
Well it is kind of how it works right now.
Jason 1:29:17
Right now, is it how it should work? Absolutely not. And I think that that's kind of the same system, the same thought process on when we look at DEI, how do we take all of these hiring managers and how do we change their perspective? And how do we change their outlook? And to be honest with you, I don't know the answer to it. Because you have to, to some degree, you almost have to take the hate out of people's heart in order to get them to change that and there's so many people who I don't know that we will change them.
Erica D'Eramo 1:29:54
Yeah, I'm gonna take a different perspective than on this one.
Jason 1:29:57
Yeah. You think so?
Erica D'Eramo 1:29:58
Because I do think that there are definitely like bad actors that are comfortable in their privilege, then they want to maintain it, then they want to maintain power.
Jason 1:30:11
Sure.
Erica D'Eramo 1:30:11
Consciously.
Jason 1:30:12
Sure.
Erica D'Eramo 1:30:13
Like want that. And I also think that the majority of people who are continuing to maintain the systemic inequalities that we see would never even consider or acknowledge that they, even to themselves, that there's anything intentional about it. And that's why they think I don't need this anonymized screening of the resumes because I don't have biases, I don't need to have blind interviews because I don't have biases, right? Like, I love everyone. And that is almost more insidious to me. Because it just goes unnoticed and I would say like, then you got nothing to lose by doing anonymized resumes. There's just like the whole shift of symphonies doing Blind Auditions now, or you couldn't see who was on the other side actually brought the gender balance to equal when for years and decades, they had been trying to tackle this disparity in hiring more male musicians than female.
Jason 1:30:20
Interesting.
Erica D'Eramo 1:30:22
And they, even to the point where people auditioning needed to remove their shoes, so that you couldn't even hear whether someone was wearing heels or not influenced the outcome of the audition. So,if the technology is there, I mean, I think we should be using it. Because we know that even if you're aware of your bias, like this is this has now been shown. And I'm trying to remember what was discussed in Thinking Fast and Slow. And the discussion around heuristics, but we know that being made aware of your bias doesn't actually fix it. We are still subjected to that bias, even though we're aware that we have it, which is why some of this training around bias, like unconscious bias training and awareness has mixed results. Because I think being aware of it's the first step, but then the second step has to be that there is some sort of system that neutralizes the bias, or takes your sole decision making out of it so that you aren't influencing the process so much, and that your bias isn't influencing the process so much, at least until things can neutralize a bit. And then real life kicks in and you're working with people who have different backgrounds, and it's that experience that starts to neutralize your bias.
Jason 1:33:06
Right.
Erica D'Eramo 1:33:08
But the AI that you're talking about with screening resumes, right? That AI is being tuned by people who have biases.
Jason 1:33:19
Right, right. So, somebody is the parameters there.
Erica D'Eramo 1:33:23
Yeah, so, technology can be so powerful and so useful. And also so dangerous, too, right? It just sort of amplifies, if left unchecked, it can amplify those biases and in such a way that it feels like it's not happening, right? Well, the computer I mean, it wasn't a human being it was a computer that made the decision, right?
Jason 1:33:45
I didn't do it. Yeah, correct.
Erica D'Eramo 1:33:46
Yeah. Yeah, but who programmed the keywords to search for?
Jason 1:33:49
Right. Exactly. Yeah, yeah, no, you're spot on with that. And I think that, and going back a little bit too, the biases that the individuals have, I think that, I guess to go back and revisit where I was going with the whole aspect of it not changing until, I think that where you were coming from is that if we can almost trick the hiring managers into seeing like, hey, this person is, like through a blind interview or something like that, if we can almost trick them into not being able to see who they're talking to. But I think where I was going from, or coming from on it was, it's unfortunate that we would have to do something like that in order to say, hey, let's try to balance the equality of our, male to female or whatever the demographic is, and I think that that's where, kind of where I was going from or coming from on it is, it's unfortunate to me that in 2022 that we would still continue to have to fight this battle between trying to get people to understand that we want them to find the best fit for their organization, and we want them to find the best fit for our role. And in doing that, we have to get them to not exclude somebody because of their race or gender, or gender identity, etc. And so I think that until we can truly get to a point where we have changed our entire perspective on it as as a society, and not even just in the US, but I mean, it's something that's happening globally, you know? Until it's in, and in some areas, actually, it's unfortunately, staggeringly worse than what we see here. But I think that until we are able to change that whole conversation and structure and just entire system of inequality, and oppression, and et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. There are pieces that we can put in place that will kind of like slap band aids on them, or slap bandages on them. But until we truly like, can actually change the entire overarching, national, international conversation perspective, etc., they're all bandages until that point. And so I think that that's kind of where I was coming from on it, where it's almost like until we can reprogram ourselves as human beings to see each other as human beings versus this person's this and this person's that. It truly is, it's a very challenging environment. And I think that that's where having these oversight committees and having companies that are focused on diversity, equity, inclusion, et cetera, you know, it's an awesome step, and we're certainly moving in a different direction. However, again, I caution that, where I see a lot of companies marching in pride parades, and then doing things that are completely, not dignify the entire transcript to the entire LGBTQIA+, et cetera, et cetera. You can't just throw money at something and then expect it to be gone and I think that that's where some of my caution to groups is and people, when I interact with people and they share some of the stuff that they're doing, I kind of try to play the devil's advocate a lot on it, because it's like, sure it's great that you're doing it, and nobody's gonna tell you please don't do that. However, it needs to be sustainable, and it needs to be repeatable. And I think that it needs to be done from a lens of, we're doing this because it's the right thing to do and it's the way that we need to be for the future versus we're doing this because it's a great story for the local newspaper, or we're doing this because it's a great story for our Tiktok. So, I think that there's so many different facets of the change that are happening.
Erica D'Eramo 1:38:19
Yeah, we had a guest on our podcast recently, Martine who spoke about a lot of companies have programming, but where is it tied to the strategy, and that's where I think having that overarching strategy of understanding where these disparities are hitting your talent pipeline all the way through. And so, marching in the Pride Parade might be great for recruiting.
Jason 1:38:46
Sure.
Erica D'Eramo 1:38:47
More queer talent, because you're sending an external message that says, we value this, but then that needs to go all the way through and you can't be screening based on something like are they married with kids? Does he have a wife and kids? Because that's... that's something that I've heard come up in hiring conversations more often than I would like to admit. And I think you're screening so many people out that way. But I think the conversation of how big or how deep does this go and band aids versus attacking the root causes? I definitely don't want anyone to not stick a bandage on that wound while they can too.
Jason 1:39:39
While we get to that point, absolutely. Yes. Oh, 1,000%, I absolutely agree. It's just unfortunate that we have to continue to put band aids on to something that most of us would consider to be something that should be a non issue at this point. But unfortunately, it's almost more of an issue now than it's ever been. And I think, mostly I say that because of the fact that it's so glaringly obvious now when it happens, and when it happens, it can immediately be broadcast to the world, where before, just like with racism on the streets, for example, it's always been happening. It's just now it's on TV, and now it's on TikTok, and now it's on Instagram stories. And so, it's not that it's something that's new, it's just that now it's on video, and kind of the same thing with these hiring disparities and whatnot, somebody can take to Instagram or Tiktok, or Facebook relatively quickly and say, hey, I am non binary, and I went into an interview today, and I could tell that they were really uncomfortable. And they sent me an email immediately after and rejected me, and I'm pretty sure that's the reason why and so it's just very different, you know, the speed at which we can consume things is very different. And so it's an interesting time to be alive.
Erica D'Eramo 1:40:58
I think in some ways it's funny, because I think you and I probably have slightly different views on these things. And in some ways, it might have sounded like, I'm more positive about people's intentions, I guess. And that might be true. But I think I'm also way more pessimistic about people's ability to even observe their own biases, and keep them in check. I recognize that I have biases, biases that I'm probably not able to keep in check, which is why I just, I have to rely on external things sometimes because I think kidding ourselves that we don't have these biases means that we then rely on our own decision making to an extent that we shouldn't. So, I don't know, which one of us is more positive or negative.
Jason 1:41:51
But I think that it's also a matter of, I think that that's where, when you look at, again, something like diversity, equity and inclusion, when you can take somebody such as yourself, obviously, you had a very different upbringing than I did, you currently live a very different life than I do, even though you're a chicken mom. But your life and my life, we live very different lives. We've been connected for over 20 years through shared experiences. However, when you look at something like DEI, part of having different perspectives is part of what makes it work. And it's part of what allows somebody like you to share your thoughts, and somebody like me to share my thoughts, and then for somebody else to maybe share his thoughts and say, well, you know what, you two both had this, but this is what I have, and that's actually really, that's what it's about. And that's where I think a lot of people kind of missed the mark on this change management aspect of it is, it's about looking at everybody, and it's not only allowing everybody to have a seat at the table, but it's also allowing them to have an opinion at the table. And it's allowing them to not even just have an opinion, but it's also allowing their opinion to be valid and for they're-
Erica D'Eramo 1:42:34
And empowered.
Jason 1:42:39
To be shared, and for them to feel empowered. And so I think that that's where, if you and I were to sit here and have this conversation, and sure, we may be coming from some different viewpoints, but I'm not sitting here telling you that you're wrong, just like you're not sitting here telling me that I'm wrong. And I think that that's where a lot of people kind of get it twisted on this path of change is it's really about how can we take everybody's views? And how can we mesh them together? And how can we take that view soup, if you will? And how can we make something awesome come out of it? And so, I think that that's where, again, when I look at things like DE&I and in the change management, specifically of it, is there a one size fits all right answer? Maybe, maybe not, I don't know that what works for Apple is going to work for Google or I don't know if what works for one of those groups is what's going to work for my group of less than 25. And so I think that that's where, I think trying to also get people to understand that it's not necessarily about right or wrong, it's about humanity. And it's about how can you hire somebody based off of skill and in shared experiences or lived experiences, and how can you find somebody who's going to be the next awesome hire for your group? And also realize that you may think it's a great hire, and they may not be, they may not be a fit for you, you may not be a fit for them and so I think that that's where also think trying to find a commonality between the job applicant and the job seeker in the company in the role. And so I think that for individuals when we're applying for new roles we should be interviewing these companies, and these managers and co workers just as much as they're interviewing us.
And so, if somebody is seeking a new role, I think, really trying to make sure that they are a good fit for the organization, but that the organization is a good fit for them. And so, if you're showing up to a job interview, and you obviously, show up and you present your whole self, and if you can tell that everybody in the room is like physically uncomfortable based off of your appearance or whatever. I'm not saying that it's right, I mean, it's certainly not okay, but at the same time, too, if it's not a situation that you want to throw yourself into, then you can evaluate that on your own. And sure, if you're going in and the idea is that you're going into an organization because they've recruited you to help with some specific purpose, that's totally okay. But if you're walking in, and they're looking for a token trans hire, or they're looking for a token Black hire or token queer or gay hire, you've got to evaluate those red flags, and you've got to figure out is this truly what I want? Again, going back to what I was saying earlier, are you finding joy? Are you finding joy in the situation that potentially you're walking into every day? The experience that they're providing you in the interview is probably the best experience that they're going to provide to you. And so you need to figure out, is this best that they're providing me what I want? Can I find joy in showing up to work every day and having everybody look at me a certain way? So, I think that there's just pieces.
Erica D'Eramo 1:47:07
Yeah, I still remember being told as I joined a new team, where I was, did not have matching experience to everybody. So, I had that against me. And I was one of the only women, if not the only woman in that role. And being told, I mean, I don't know how many times actually, so many times, I've been told, well, we want you to change the culture. Okay, so that's a big red flag, if you are not part of the in group or the dominant group, you're being asked to change the culture. So that's a big red flag for any person that's sitting in the seat of the candidate, but also, hey, companies put up a mirror if you're trying to recruit people from a disadvantaged group to change the culture of the dominant group, maybe take a look at that.
Jason 1:48:01
Yeah, it's actually interesting that you bring that up, I had read an article, gosh, I forget where it was, it might have been a Harvard Business Review, or I forget if it was from there that MIT, Sloan or anyhow, one of the things that they were actually talking about was, do white men belong in the DE&I space? And it was actually really interesting, because there are obviously strong opinions on both sides of that. But one of the things they were, and again, I forget which group it was, it may not have been either of those. But one of the things that they were mentioning was, is that there's actually a lot of power in having white men in those roles. Because ultimately, that's where the change has to come from. Because that's where the old boys club or et cetera. And so, some of what I've read has actually indicated that when you allow one of those people who is truly in the space, leading it, that sometimes you get more buy in because they're like, oh, hey, this person who looks like me and talks like me, and does the things that I like is okay with all of this stuff, maybe I should be okay with it, too. And so, it's interesting, because when you think of DE&I typically I mean, you see people you know, who are female or Black or Asian or trans, etc, who are in those roles. And so, it was kind of one of those things where when I started reading it, I was like, oh, where's this gonna go? This probably is gonna go badly. And actually in reading it, it was actually kind of eye opening to the standpoint of, hmm, maybe that is a great way to approach it and maybe that does foster further buy in. But again, I think on the flip side of it, when you're trying to include all of the other groups, do you foster that inclusion by having somebody in the group that has mostly disenfranchised them be the person who is now trying to make them equitable and included? So there's two sides to every coin, I guess. But it was an interesting article, again, I forget exactly where it came from, but...
Erica D'Eramo 1:50:29
I'll need to check that one out. I think where I land on this one and I do have an opinion on it is that it's laughable to think that the group that you've acknowledged is already disenfranchised, is already lacking in social and political power within an organization. If you think you can outsource to them to entirely change the culture in the organization from a place of lack of power, that's laughable to me, right? Doesn't make any sense. That being said, saying that the people who have that power, who have had the historical advantage and who have the social and political power within the organization, those people need to be a part of making it happen, they need to be the sponsors, they need to be the ones actively promoting it actively being held accountable and responsible for progress in these areas.
Jason 1:51:45
Sure.
Erica D'Eramo 1:51:46
And they should not be speaking on behalf of people who have the lived experience. If you don't have that lived experience, elevate the voices and amplify the voices that do defer to the people who have the lived experience to help inform the decisions, but you better be backing those decisions once you have that information/. Use your political power and your organizational power for change, and not just sit back and hand it to an HR person and be like, oh, hey, by the way, I know you already have this full time job, but we're also going to make you the D&I champion, as well.
Right. Right.
So...
Jason 1:52:28
Fully agree, fully agree. I was looking at it mostly from a point of perspective on how, yeah, it is interesting. And again, I think it also goes back to my thought on there truly is no one size fits all for all these.
Erica D'Eramo 1:52:44
No, there's not.
Jason 1:52:45
What's working for a farming co-op in Iowa isn't going to work for Disney, which certainly isn't gonna work for a small startup in New York City. There's just so many different pieces, and that's where I think that having that commonality of the goal, again, being like, let's treat people as humans, and let's treat people as equal and et cetera, is so critical, and then trying to figure out, how do we remove and retrain and reprogram and et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, to get everything moving in a different direction? And sure, as we talked about earlier, let's put a bandaid on the things that we need to band aid for now. But let's also figure out how we like create a....
Erica D'Eramo 1:53:32
Create a tourniquet.
Jason 1:53:34
Right, exactly. Let's get them all wound up here so that we can stop the bleeding. And then from there, how do we actually create sustainable, repeatable change, because that, ultimately, is going to be what takes us into the future.
Erica D'Eramo 1:53:52
Yeah, I think that part of it, I'm like, it's different for every company, or every organization that really resonates for me. So yeah, from a consulting perspective, whenever companies are like, well, what's your process? What's the checklist that we need to do to do the D&I? Well, let's go do your baseline assessment and figure out where your gaps are, and what your goal is. And so often, the goal is like, oh, we need to improve our DEI metrics. Well no, what you're saying is you really want to improve your diversity metrics, but actually, maybe the goal needs to be we want access to the top talent to move this company along. And that's where I see the tie being with pursuing people who have non traditional backgrounds into that talent pool. Because those people can really, if you get really clear about what it is that you need in a role. And hopefully you can kind of eliminate some of the clouding that happens from us projecting our own selves onto that. But if you can be really clear, we need somebody who is super creative, we need somebody who can think on their feet, we need somebody who is really, really good with numbers, knowing those things is really important. But so often we have things tagged on that are just, they're really, I guess nice to haves, but in some ways, it's even worse than that, right? Because they're weeding out. They're just creating this monochromatic template of who that employee should be.
Jason 1:55:29
Right.
Erica D'Eramo 1:55:29
And they're waiting out potential, creative, outside the box thinkers that are going to bring diverse experiences from their non traditional backgrounds right to it.
Jason 1:55:34
Right. And I think that that's where to, in thinking about what you were just mentioning, when you're doing assessments and whatnot, I think that there's also a lot of confusion, I guess, you could say, from companies where, I think that if an organization is looking at hiring a diversity, equity and inclusion manager for the sole sake of changing some specific metric. That's really not, at least in my opinion, anyhow, that's not the idea behind change management, diversity, equity and inclusion. Sure, there are metrics that are attached to it, just like there are metrics attached to pretty much everything.
Erica D'Eramo 1:56:31
They're lagging indicators, right?
Jason 1:56:33
1,000%, lagging like, I mean, let's focus on the leading indicator. Let's focus on life, let's focus on like how do the individuals who work for us, how do they feel? Let's focus on retention, and then let's focus on inclusion, and let's focus on all these pieces. Sure. But rather than just have it be a radio button on a survey, let's make it be like, hey, are we actually changing the culture? And again, when I reference something like a farming co-op in Iowa or something like that, I mean, I couldn't even imagine what, if I were a trans man, I can't imagine what it would be like living in a place where, I can only imagine some of those experiences might look like in some of these really small, really rural communities, in trying to then show up to work somewhere where everything is looking at some archaic metric, that doesn't make me feel any better as an individual, and it doesn't make me feel any more accepted as a human being. It may make the leaders of the company feel better, because they went from having 2% acceptance to 22% acceptance, but does it make me feel any better? Do I feel any safer coming to work? Or do I feel any more included? Do I feel like everybody's still staring at me, or does nobody talk to me still? So I think that that's where, sure the metric is part of it, and unfortunately, in business, there's really no way to not have these metrics. But at the same time, when you really look at changing the conversation, and when you look at changing the experience for people, the metrics are so, so lacking and in speed, and it's just, there has to be more to it than that, it has to be. It can't just be like a checkbox or like a checklist or a percentage, it has to be, there's just so much more that has to be in it. I don't know that there's a perfect answer to that. And I don't know that there's one best way to do it or one right way to do it. But I know that it's just that we have a lot of work to do. There's definitely, in the HR community, specifically, I mean, we just, there's a lot of work to do.
Erica D'Eramo 1:59:06
So, where do you think companies should be looking for some of this to get outside of this paradigm of the traditional trajectory for careers? Where could companies be looking to kind of get more diverse sets of experiences more nonlinear trajectories?
Jason 1:59:26
Yeah, I think that it depends, which I know that, I feel like so much stuff is just, it's so situational. But I think that really, when you think of roles in hiring, and in general, I think that, when you look at just the entire talent sourcing function of a role, whether you're in TA or you're, depending on the size of the organization, you may, maybe you're in HR department of one or maybe you've got a group of 25 recruiters. I think that it really depends on the number of resources that you have available internally. But then I think it also is really about trying to figure out, who are you trying to hire and what do you need them to do? And I think that in situations like, again, going back to my own situation, if I were the individual who hired me at my first HR role, if I were looking for somebody who was going to be the next great HR coordinator, I would want a certain set of skills, and I would want those skills to be somebody who has high hiring experience, and somebody who understands I-9 compliance and knows how to fill out and handle payroll taxes, and W4'sand W2's and 1099, et cetera, et cetera. And I think that, really, it's about finding and knowing this is what we need this person to do. And then it's kind of going outside the box and saying, hey, alright, so now that we know what this person needs to do, what are some groups that could do that work? And so again, in my situation as a store manager, a lot of the functions of a human resources practitioner are very alive and well, and being a retail manager, again, through that whole hiring, and recruiting and et cetera, lifecycle. And so, what my advice would be is that find out what the organization is looking for an individual to do, and then try to find some companies or some roles that have very similar experiences, or very similar job requirements, and then go seek that person. And so, again, when you look at something like we talked about earlier with somebody who is a server or somebody who maybe is a dishwasher, or something, there are so many aspects of those individuals jobs that are so transferable to other skills, and even, back to what you were saying about, somebody who owns a yoga studio, you may not think that somebody who runs and owns a yoga studio or a fitness center, that person might not be your first pick for somebody to run a new company. But could they be, I mean, should they be someone you look at? They recruit their own people, they recruit their own customers, they do their own marketing, for a lot of them, they balance their books, they probably negotiated their own lease, or they bought their own building. There's just so many pieces of all of our roles that are so much bigger than our job title. And so I think that it's about, again, figuring out like, okay, hey, we need to hire this role. And these are all the things that we want this person to do. Okay, now, we're going to look and see all right, in this crazy talent war that we have right now, if you're hiring, say, for example, if I was hiring an HR manager, I'm probably not just gonna go out and look for everybody in my area who is an HR manager, because a lot of them are probably pretty satisfied with where they are. I may get a couple bites from some of them when I would go out and try to recruit, but what I could do to change the conversation into change my pool, is I could look at and say, okay, so let's look at all the jobs that are maybe similar. So, as an HR manager, store managers, store directors, somebody who is relatively senior in talent acquisition, or somebody who is running their own business, there's just so many different jobs, and so many different groups that I can tap into. And then I think even before that, look in your immediate area, and try to find, obviously people who are in your area, but then even look at different areas that, I mean, even in roles that I've worked in before, where I've looked in different cities where I know their job market isn't quite as good. So, if I'm recruiting in State College, Pennsylvania and I know what my job market is here. Well, maybe in Altoona, 40-45 minutes away or so, the job market in Altoona is different than State College. So, maybe I look in Altoona because maybe they've had more layoffs, or maybe I go to somewhere where there's has been a lot of layoffs activity in different sectors. And so I think that it's a matter of just knowing how to look and how to kind of cast a wide net and then from that wide net, then continue to narrow it down and try to find people who are you know, going to be potentially a great fit and then I think that that's where then you really layer the limitation of biases piece in and then say, okay, now we have all these people, now let's look at them and let's evaluate them from a skill and experience standpoint, and let's not try to figure out how old they are or whether they're straight or gay or, or Black or white or Asian, etc. But let's figure out like, do we think they're going to be potentially a good fit based off of paper, and then let's have a conversation with them, whether it's on the phone or what it is. And just take it from there. And so, there's just such a different,
there's a different approach that we almost have to take now, because of the job market specifically. But I think that with layering in all of the DE&I work that so many of us are doing, that it makes it even more interesting, and it makes it- I would hate to use the word challenging, because I don't know that it's challenging. It is challenging, let's be real, it is challenging, but it's fun. And again, I may be coming from a place of privilege, based off of the amazing hires that I've found recently. I won't tell you that I haven't recruited hard because I have. It's not been easy, but I've been able to source and approach and just jump into different groups that has allowed it to be engaging, and has allowed me to find really excellent people without feeling like I need to bang my head against the wall.
Erica D'Eramo 2:06:30
Yeah. Yeah, I think like one interestingly, in energy, one of the core groups that they look to is Veterans interested, because I'm like, and I know when we would be interviewing, especially for offshore roles, where there's rotational work, you know, you're going to be away from your family for a long period of time. Yep. You're gonna work really long shifts, there's a strict adherence to like operational discipline, there's a lot of like, process, a lot of like, safeguards, all those things are, might be tough for somebody who hasn't come up through that. But like, Yeah, usually people who have served in the military, or been deployed, that will not be new territory for them, and it'll be a pretty smooth transitions, right, even though they might not have an engineering degree or whatever, like, they'll have the skill set that is most necessary to be able to, to operate out there. So yeah, like finding those parallels, and then going to find the groups where those people are existing and might be looking for new opportunities or looking to change.
Jason 2:07:37
Right, right. Yeah. And again, I think that even when you were mentioning veterans, I know that, I know, Starbucks, for example, is a company that for quite some time now has been a preferred employer, rather of a veteran, because of the flexibility of there are so many Starbucks, obviously, specifically in looking at the US, if you're a military spouse, and you need to transfer somewhere, the transferability within their system is great. And so, I think that there are certainly employers out there who are more geared towards hiring people out of certain sectors, and I think that sometimes being able to find something that you can move with easily is great. And so, I think that there's certainly winds that are attached to some of these larger organizations that have a lot of locations, whether it be a Starbucks or an Apple store or whatever it might be. Lowe's for example, I know, is a great example or a lot of military folks gravitate towards, and again, if they need to move there are many Lowe's stores for that. So, I think that there's and there's power in that stability, to where for a lot of people, job searching is really stressful, moving is also really stressful. So, when I had relocated to a Oahu knowing that I was moving to Hawaii and having a job when I got there and not having to do the whole job search piece. That was really one of the reasons why it went, if I hadn't had a job, I would have never gone and so I think that that's also where trying to find these different roles where there is growth not only within your local area, but where you can move with it and you can grow with it and you've had some similar experiences with relocation and whatnot, etc. So, anyhow, probably a topic for a whole other conversation but...
Erica D'Eramo 2:09:45
Yeah, absolutely. So, yeah, I could I could talk for hours about relocation and...
Jason 2:09:51
Yeah, the good, the bad and the ugly.
Erica D'Eramo 2:09:54
Right. So, any parting thoughts for us today around non traditional career paths and the opportunities from both a job seeker perspective or a hiring manager perspective?
Jason 2:10:12
Sure. I think that when I think of, again, my own experiences, and when I think of what I experienced both the good, and the bad, and the promising, and the demoralizing, perhaps, is that, it's really again, about trying to figure out what did I want? And what did I want out of my role? Or what did I want out of my future? What story did I want to be able to tell? And how did I want to be able to create that, and so I think that, again, coming from a slight place of privilege of being able to just go back to school, being able to go back and to do that, trying to figure out what it is that made me happy and what it is that I felt would project me and push me to the next level, I've been fortunate in the fact that my bets have have paid off thus far. And so I think that, just, again, trying to navigate through that, and trying to find people who can help you on the path, especially when you're making a career transition, I think that trying to make the career transition completely on your own is really, really scary. Is it doable? Sure. Is it a little bit more comfortable to do it whenever you have somebody who's kind of in your corner with it? 1,000%, yes. So, I think that just really trying to know or and remember that there are resources that are out there, and that there are people who can help and I was again, fortunate to work with some great folks at Penn State and throughout my career who I had met, to be able to navigate. So, yeah, I think just really being able to kind of forge a path and figure out what it is that you want to do, and figure out some action steps and get them written down just like anything else that once you kind of get the words on paper, or the words on your screen, use your notes app on your phone, whatever it is that you need to do. But get it so that you can see it and you kind of know, like, where are you going? What do you want to do? And then take it from there. As far as from a hiring manager standpoint, or from a recruiting standpoint, I think, really just, I think more than anything, as you know, for anybody who is screening applicants is really, look at applications from the standpoint of does this person offer something that I need and does this person offer something that will make my organization better? And look at it less from the perspective of, well, what college did they go to? Or where did they graduate from high school? Or did they go to college? Or are their career gaps or look at it from the standpoint of, hey, does this person look like they would offer us something that we need, and then really try to evaluate and try to find people who can further the cause and further the organization, versus just trying to say, hey, is this the needle in the hay field, or the needle in the haystack that we're looking for? Is this person somebody who's actually going to further our cause and this is somebody who's going to crush it in this role, even though they have no actual transferable job title, but they have all of these transferable skills, and they have all of this personality, and they've got all this desire and drive. And I don't know, I just think that a lot of times that goes a long way. And I think that a lot of times, it's overlooked. And speaking from my own experiences where, again, I had applied at so many roles knowing that I would be a really great HR coordinator, and somebody who wanted to grow within HR, knowing how many times I was passed over, when realistically, I probably would have been a pretty great fit for a lot of those groups. And I guess it worked out for my current role that I'm here, but I think that there's definitely, there's a lot to learn, I think from it.
Erica D'Eramo 2:14:33
Yeah.Yeah, absolutely. Well, thank you so much for joining us on the podcast today. Lots of great insights and discussion. And for our podcast listeners, you can always find us on the social media platforms that you're used to, so, LinkedIn, Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, we're on all those @TwoPiersConsult. And you can find us at our website at twopiersconsulting.com. And if you are looking to understand how you can better either find a job outside of your current industry, and you'd like to explore some coaching in that area, or if you're looking to improve your recruitment, and find more diverse candidates from a more diverse set of experiences, you can talk to us and we'd be happy to chat. So, we will see you next episode and thanks for listening.