In this episode, we're joined by DEI thought leader and author Martine Kalaw. We dig deep into the work of diversity, equity and inclusion efforts and explore the criticality of this work for business sustainability. We also discuss what's worked and what hasn't in terms of diversity efforts, and how to equip managers with the key skills needed to embed sustainable strategy and process when pursuing DEI efforts. Join us for this engaging and explorative conversation about diversity, equity and inclusion.
To learn more about Martine's work or how to find her book, visit her website at www.martinekalaw.com.
Transcript below:
Erica D'Eramo 0:05
Hello and welcome to the Two Piers podcast. I'm your host, Erica D'Eramo and today we have another special guest joining us. I'm really excited to have her on the podcast. She is a DEI thought leader and she's the author of The ABCs of Diversity: A Managers Guide to Diversity, Equity and Inclusion in the New Workplace. She is also the founder and CEO of Martine Kalaw Enterprises.
So, Martine, thank you so much for joining us.
Martine Kalaw 0:44
Thank you for having me. I'm excited to be here.
Erica D'Eramo 0:48
Yeah, it's great to have you on the podcast. You know, speaking to you previously, it sounds like we share similar missions in the change that we want to see in the world. So I was excited to have you join us. Do you mind just telling us a little bit about yourself and the work that you do?
Martine Kalaw 1:08
Yeah, absolutely. So, I'm the CEO and founder of Martine Kalaw Enterprises and what we do is we support human resources professionals in driving DEI in their workplace by helping them to save time, reduce the burden, and identify the return on investment, immediately, right, so that they can actually secure a seat at the table in their efforts to drive DEI. And the other thing, and we do that through training and consulting. And simultaneously, what we feel is that when we think about the stakeholders, who really can help to shape DEI in the workplace. Certainly it's leadership, certainly, it's the board of directors, but it's also human resources, professionals, as well as managers. So one of the ways that we support human resources professionals is by equipping managers with tools and skills that they can integrate into their manager development programs that are very deep, that are DEI specific, right? That helps to reinforce the skills throughout the organization through the managers and not just having human resources on that responsibility.
Erica D'Eramo 2:30
Yeah, yeah. When we spoke previously, and I mentioned my background in energy, what you're talking about really resonates for me and I see that similarly. I look to HSE, or health, safety and environment, for how entities and companies treat that. The disparity between how they treat that, which they recognize, impacts their bottom line. They recognize how fundamentally important it is to the operations of the business, they treat it very differently than they would say, diversity, equity and inclusion. So you would never say safety is owned by the safety manager, it's owned by the managers, it's owned by the line and you have experts there to help guide and support insurance in the strategy, ensure you have the right metrics. But really like equipping people with that.
Martine Kalaw 3:32
That's correct. Safety is the right thing to do. That's a given. Of course, it's the right thing to do. It's a business imperative in addition to it being the right thing to do. So there's strategy, we're not just coming out with a bunch of great programs and we're not really sure how to scale it, and it doesn't tie back to strategy. It doesn't tie back to metrics, right? When we roll out safety, there's benchmarks, we know the goal, we know the return on investment, how it's actually going to drive our revenue and their strategy. The program is a component or programs are component of the strategy, their systems that are in place that are specific to safety. We're not repurposing other systems.
Erica D'Eramo 4:18
Yeah you're not using your audit system to the...
Martine Kalaw 4:21
Exactly and so that's my belief. I mean, if we want to really move the needle from where we have been with DEI to where we really want to go, then we really do need to make it a business structure, just like everything else, just like security and that's where we'll really start to see change.
Erica D'Eramo 4:44
Yeah, right. Yep. I totally agree and similarly, where there is either a failure or we're not reaching the objectives that we would expect. In safety. You wouldn't just say, oh, we had someone injured. So therefore, we are going to hire one person to come in and own this, you would say everybody needs training, right? Clearly, we have something at the root cause. So everybody needs training, not just that person in, say, you know, HR, if it's diversity. That's why I similarly think that the training that you do for actual managers as well is just so valuable.
Martine Kalaw 5:25
Yeah. Because it's fundamental. It's foundational learning. In my book, I really wanted it to be a primer, right? And so, when anyone reads the book, it's pretty straightforward and the takeaway should be, oh, my gosh, this is not that hard. This is just, these are basic foundational concepts of being a manager and the only element that's different is, the only thing that makes this seem seemingly DEI is that we're just widening our lens. When we're looking at looking at and considering hiring, which is a foundational skill of being a manager, it should be in order the manager development programs. Well, the difference is, we get to talk about some potential biases, when we're looking at resumes? What are the stories that we create about the resumes that we see, what goes in our minds? What image and picture do we create? What affinity do we have around certain individuals? How do we mitigate that when we're actually writing the job description? Studies show that women and people of color have a tendency to apply for positions where they meet most of the criteria, if not all, whereas white men are more likely to apply for positions where they can aspire to meet all the criteria. So if we know that, well, how do we reframe or reevaluate our job descriptions? How do we widen the pool of candidates when we're working with talent acquisition or recruiting? Right? How do we encourage them to go back and provide us with a wider range of applicants?That's really what DEI incorporated into manager development looks like. So it's not requiring us to learn all these concepts and theories like we would in academia around diversity, around critical race theory. I mean, certainly, all of that is invaluable and it's helpful, but it's not necessary as a starter. Right? So ultimately, what I'm suggesting in this direction of driving DEI.
Erica D'Eramo 7:48
Yeah, it's funny how people don't realize what impact to their pipeline of talent, something as little as a throwaway line of MBA preferred will have. Do you actually need that, is that actually critical? Because the impact, the ripple effect of having something like that just thrown on to the laundry list of things could mean you're missing out on great talent that would do that job very, very well.i
Martine Kalaw 8:19
It's just getting, rather than pointing the finger, it's getting our managers to understand why and how it's limiting, right? And so that's the process. That's the conversation. I don't even like to call it, refer to it as training. It's really discussion and workshops, right? We're going through simulations to understand what's the impact or what could be the potential impact of our decisions in the long term. So if we put MBA preferred, how does that limit us in the long term? Right? What happens if we run out of candidates? Because that could happen if we put such strict parameters and guidelines. So that's really what driving DEI through our Manager Development Program can actually look like,
Erica D'Eramo 9:12
Yeah, it's building awareness. Right? It's building awareness, building skill sets, helping people with tools.
Martine Kalaw 9:17
Yeah, that reinforces the strategy work that human resources professionals can do. And similar to what you were saying before, it shouldn't be limited to just one person, right? We can argue back and forth as to whether or not DEI is the responsibility of human resources? Not necessarily, it doesn't have to be. It really shouldn't be, it should be a DEI expert who comes in who can build a department around it, but often times, right, human resources is tagged with that responsibility and their job. What they have the opportunity to do is communicate the value to the business, right, of DEI, and in doing so, is where they can actually get the support and the resources to actually build a department and even potentially bring in somebody else who can own it.
Erica D'Eramo 10:20
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. You touched on something that I just wanted to circle back to as well. And it's kind of this concept of, we talk about diversity, equity and inclusion, when really, these are like lenses to look at how our businesses are operating. And I sometimes refer to the diversity numbers, you know, the metrics as like, those are lagging indicators, in a way. They're showing you symptoms of something that is happening in your process, but they are not the goal, right? They are not the target, they're an indication that something of the temperature.
Martine Kalaw 11:01
Yeah, and I think it just depends on what we define as diversity targets. So you know, what I often see is that some organizations, when they look at, they're looking at diversity metrics, it's very superficial, it's, you know, the gender distribution across our organization, let's look at it by region. But what I always recommend is looking at their cross section of data, because we're looking for the stories, right, the inferences that we can make. So it's one thing to look at the gender distribution, and it's another to look at gender distribution and maybe generation, right? I mean, if that information exists, generation, also race or ethnicity. And it's another thing to also then look at, well, what's, you know, if we're looking at gender, race and generation, let's look at, by department, how quickly or what's the pace in which people get promoted? Right? What does that story look like? And that's where we really start to identify where the challenges are, where their opportunities. But in order to even get to that place where people care, because I always like to put myself in somebody else's shoes, right? And think, if I'm benefiting from the current system, the current structure, why would I care? What would be the value of me wanting to look at all these cross section and data and improve things? Right? So that's why I start with the return on investment if we start with, okay, what's the goal? What's the value? How does all this work impact our revenue? How does it impact our sales? How does it impact our ability to increase market share? How does it impact our ability to retain our partners to get referrals, right? If we're able to start there, then it's a lot easier to get organizations to say, okay, now let's look at the raw data. Let's look at the numbers, let's look and` figure out what the stories are. It's never a pretty picture, it's just it's not going to be a pretty picture for anyone. But it's okay, because we're all striving from pretty much the same place.
Erica D'Eramo 13:29
I mean, if it were a pretty picture and everything looked perfect, in any or in any realm of an organization that you were looking at, that means you've tapped out, that's it. There's no more growth to be had, right? That's actually not a great story for shareholders or anyone, you always want to be like pursuing that next area of growth. I think in diversity, there's a lot of these are clues when you see some of this information, there are clues for areas to go looking for where those opportunities are, right?
Martine Kalaw 14:01
Yeah, and beyond that, diversity is one element, right? That's why I say the metrics are so telling, because we can look at the metrics for diversity. That's one thing, but then we want to also look at equity and inclusion, right? Equity looks like a number of things, right? It really is around fairness and distribution, right? So we can look at compensation equity. Absolutely. We also want to look at equity in terms of distribution of like access to things, access to mentorship program, access to the headquarters, right? When we talk about inclusion, it's also integration, right? Think about companies, organizations that go through mergers and acquisition, and they create this new value or they come up with new values for the organization. Is it truly new values that are inclusive of everyone or is it usually one company, particularly in mergers, right? It's another thing in terms of acquisitions. But, when we think about organizations that are across different regions of the globe, right, there's usually a tendency for one part of the globe to expect the other regions to sort of acclimate, right? Assimilate. And that's different. I think there's a clear distinction between assimilation, right?
Erica D'Eramo 15:29
Yeah.
Martine Kalaw 15:29
Inclusion, integration.
Erica D'Eramo 15:32
Comes back fundamentally to like, why do we talk about diversity? What is the value of diversity? And looking under those layers, that sure your diversity numbers might look okay, I guess whatever, they might look representative, or it might look like you have diversity. But, if you just want it for the sake of it, and not for the value it brings for the difference in thought for the difference in risk perception for the relatability of your customers. And for like the brainstorming potential, if you don't want it for all of those right reasons, you run the risk of assimilating people in drop by drop.
Martine Kalaw 16:13
That's right.
Erica D'Eramo 16:13
So that you have women who have essentially had to act like men, in order to go through the ranks or people who have had to code switch just to survive in their workplace. Like, what value is that really bringing?
Martine Kalaw 16:29
That's a good point that you're making Erica because, you know, what I say is diversity by itself is just, it can only last for so long, right?
Erica D'Eramo 16:38
Right.
Martine Kalaw 16:39
We need equity and inclusion. And when diversity is done to sort of check off the box, it's performative, it only goes so far, because what ends up happening is there's lack of representation, right? Diversity without inclusion usually looks like lack of references imitation, where you have one of or two of a particular person from a particular group. And what ends up happening, which is what you said so beautifully, is that person either runs the risk of having to disprove, constantly try to go against the stereotypes that they perceive that they'll receive based on their association with the group they belong to. So they're trying to work against those stereotypes, right? Because diversity without real work means people are checking off a box, but they still believe what they believe about that group, right? So they're going to have those stereotypes and that person has to constantly work against it, which sometimes means that they overcompensate in some way, shape or form, right? That certainly happened or they don't, right, they just are who they are and they're not trying to disprove certain stereotypes, which means that they still right, they still fall into that perceived stereotype. So they're set up to fail, right? When we don't really do all the work. And at the end of the day, the reason we want diversity, equity and inclusion, and I'll say it, because I think that it's okay to, I want to give organizations permission to say, the reason we want DEI is because we want to cast the widest net and bring in the best talent in order just to drive our own forward. That's really it.
Erica D'Eramo 18:37
Who wants to believe that they work for an organization where they've succeeded only because we're excluding 80% of the population, and they're competing in a pool of 20% of their peers? Like, that's not empowering for anyone. Nobody wants to believe that, right? So they might be benefiting from it. You know, people in the status quo, people in the dominant culture, I guess, in organizations might see that short term impact and might feel anxious about what that change could look like. And fundamentally, at the same time, we all want to believe that we are operating in a fair environment and that we're succeeding based on our capability and our merit, right? Yes.
Martine Kalaw 19:20
Which is why it's really important for organizations to be cognizant of how they introduce diversity, right?
Erica D'Eramo 19:30
Yes. 100%.
Martine Kalaw 19:32
When we position it, as, I've seen organizations say this and do this and we've, you know, there was this was kind of the trend a few years back, two years back, and it was public knowledge where people would say I'm giving up my seat on the board so we can bring in a black person or a woman. So what ends up happening is that that person is, no one acknowledges that person was qualified. It's not that they got the position solely because of their identity, but because they're qualified. And so we just really want to be careful in organizations when we present that because we set this wrong precedence. And so what I hear in some organizations a lot, I'll hear people say, and I've heard it from white men, primarily, in some organizations who say, you know, to me, I feel like diversity means that we're going to water down the quality of people, employees, or applicants in our pool, and bring in people who are not as qualified. And I also feel like I might lose my job, right, to somebody who's less qualified. This is not true, right? I mean, but when we set that precedent, and we present diversity in this way, it can send the wrong message. So we have to be careful in how we present this. So it's about widening our pool of candidates, right? And studies show that if you have one woman applying for a position, and the rest, you know, nine men, then the likelihood of the woman getting the position is minimal. Right? Unless, we're specifically looking to hire just that woman. However, when you widen the pool of candidates, and you've got five women and five men, then the likelihood increases of a woman getting a position, right, getting that position. And when we help our managers or hiring managers mitigate biases around hiring, well, then certainly the numbers are more likely to increase, right, and then we get to diversity. So that's really the goal in this space, right? I would say in for profit organizations. Now, when we talk about academia, when we talk about government, that's different, right? Because the history of government and inequity in these spaces look vastly different from the corporate space or the for profit space. So we just really want to be careful around how we navigate that conversation.
Erica D'Eramo 22:20
Yeah, I think that's a really important distinction. I know that sometimes people feel a little uneasy, especially when we're talking about the words equity and inclusion and these topics that feel like they should stand alone as the right things to do and that we somehow cheapen it when we talk about revenue.
Martine Kalaw 22:40
Right?
Erica D'Eramo 22:41
And my counterpoint is always like, that's great, but when you frame it as a philanthropy, actually, it A will be the first thing to get cut and B, if you're not reaching your targets there, you have a fundamental vulnerability in the operation of your business, you're not reaching the talent that you could reach, you're not gaining access to the insights that you could. So as a shareholder, I do want that on the table. And I don't want it to be valued in the way philanthropy would be valued. You're not being nice to people by ensuring that they're getting like a fair opportunity.
Martine Kalaw 23:23
That's right. And for anyone who argues that it's cheapening DEI efforts. My response is well, where has it gotten us so far, right? Because we're just preaching to the choir, when you just when it's the right thing to do, and it becomes exclusive, we exclude all of the necessary stakeholders that we need in this conversation, we need everyone in this conversation. So discussing business, discussing DEI as a business structure is the equalizer. Right? We're all able to speak that common language and it doesn't mean that DEI isn't the right thing to do. That's not what we're saying. But we're saying it's the right thing to do and business imperative. Absolutely, when it seems solely as philanthropic as it should, think about just human nature when we should do something.
Erica D'Eramo 24:32
Yeah.
Martine Kalaw 24:32
Where does it fall on our list of priorities? What's the energy behind it? We're like, oh, gosh, I should do this. Right? And so it just feels like, an it feels obligatory. It's not the energy that we want around something like this, especially because it can actually foster help to help drive business. I mean, at the very end of the day, we get to acknowledge that and don't think enough organization sit down and acknowledge that right? And so I recommend that that's the very first thing we do is start to identify the return on investment, just like if you hire a head of sales, they come in and they say, hey, you know, I want to turn things around, what the first question is, well, what's the impact? How's it gonna drive our business? And in addition to that, what's it going to cost? Right? And you lay all that out, create a p&l statement. That's what we get to do. And when we do that, that becomes the entry point into the conversation where everyone's in it. And then once we get into it, once we start to talk about the strategy, the numbers, the metrics, all of that, we can certainly integrate the history of things, the emotions, the emotional quotient component of DEI, because that's absolutely important. And our managers can help to facilitate that and reinforce that within our organizations.
Erica D'Eramo 26:07
Yeah, again, the parallels between safety and diversity, like really are so strong for me, because similarly, you wouldn't say, we need to keep people safe just because we don't want to hurt people like, it's not cheapening it when you invest money into it. Similarly, if you're not investing, and if you don't put any business value to something, how can you understand what monetary resources you're willing to put behind it? And so when you look at organizations, and they say, like, oh, diversity, equity, and inclusion is part of our core values. Cool, cool. But like, what's your budget?
Martine Kalaw 26:50
What's the budget? What's your mark? Where are we starting? What's our goal? How do we actually know we're actually making improvement? And when we come up with, because what I often see is, organizations have a lot of great programming, like they will share all the programs are like five different programs going on. And they're really proud of themselves. And I actually think the program is wonderful, programming is wonderful but my question is, how do we scale it? Right? What does that tie back to strategy? How do we know that the program is actually doing anything?
Erica D'Eramo 27:24
Yeah. Is it impactful?
Martine Kalaw 27:25
Is it impactful? S`o that's really what it comes down to, right? We want to actually make an impact. And the other thing that I like to say, to give organizations permission, because I think, part of the apprehension of you know, identifying and looking at metrics is, there's a lot of pressure on having these sweeping changes around. It happens slowly, it's okay.
Erica D'Eramo 27:54
It's organic too.
Martine Kalaw 27:54
Totally, right, and it's organic. I know we're in this sort of a climate where our employees were in great resignation, our employees are hyper aware of everything that we're doing. But I, I have reason to believe that employees, they just want organizations to be thoughtful around their efforts around DEI, they're not looking for immediate change with everything overnight. What they're looking for is a clear plan of action with strategy and timing, right? And metrics. I think, once we do that, we set that up, people are much more reassured, right? So if we're reacting by throwing out all these different programs, not really looking at having a strategy, not really looking at what the impact is, not really looking at benchmark, and saying that this is the right thing to do, it's only going to last so long. And it's going to lead to this constant frustration or hitting a wall, which is what I see. And a lot of pressure falls back on the person who's owning this. Oftentimes, it's human resources professionals, right? And so, my goal is to set human resources professionals up to succeed, right? To set them up so that they also can secure the seat at the table. We already know that just being in human resources, in many ways, you're always constantly vying for a seat at the table. So now you're given this seemingly extracurricular activity, right, of DEI makes it even that much more difficult. And so, I know it's painstaking and the work that my organization, my company does is to support them.
Erica D'Eramo 29:54
It's one of the reasons I really like the kind of the ethos you seem to show around. Putting the shame aside, we're not trying to shame people, we need access to the people in power. Because often, what we see in organizations is that, especially after the murder of George Floyd and a lot of focus on Black Lives Matter, companies took someone who probably already had a full time job, doing their HR job and they were like, oh, you're also our DNI champion now.
Martine Kalaw 30:29
Yes.
Erica D'Eramo 30:30
We may not pay you any extra money, we may not give you any extra power decision making, et cetera. But you are going to handle this and you've got that backing.
Martine Kalaw 30:41
A gap, but not really, because we don't have time and we don't have a budget. And here's an ERG.
Erica D'Eramo 30:50
Don't get me started.
Martine Kalaw 30:52
Because ERG's are absolutely instrumental in the journey and the drive to DEI and I have to thank a lot of ERGs are the equivalent of those, because they have been helping to sustain DEI in the last couple of years. So thank you, right? But employee resource groups are truly that, what I just said, they're made up of employees who aren't necessarily experts in the field of DEI and you almost need someone who can have an objective standpoint, right? So there's a lot of emotion that comes into it. So they can't be given the responsibility of driving DEI and one person who may not have the experience, the background expertise, also shouldn't be given this responsibility on top of all their other workload, it's really not fair and they're not set up to succeed.
Erica D'Eramo 31:50
Yeah, like leveraging the unpaid labor and expertise of the people who are most marginalized in your organization to somehow fix systemic disparity on their own is fascinating to me. I mean, we could have an entire podcast just about that topic.
Martine Kalaw 32:09
Absolutely. No, but the thing is, I just, I honestly believe that some organizations have blind, we all have blind spots, right? And so this is clearly a blind spot, which is why we're having these conversations while you have this awesome platform where we can have these discussions so people can hear and go, wait, I just never considered that, because what I see is, in working with different HR professionals. I see exhaustion, I see burden, and I'm going to acknowledge it as burden burden, not that they don't want to do it, it's just that it's, first of all, it's from for many of them, it's very personal, it's very, their own experiences are sort of tied into this, and now they're given this responsibility, and they don't really know how to navigate it, and how do they make time to do their other work, right? And then it feels like they're pushing a boulder, because there really isn't any support, no, there aren't any resources. They're really not set up to succeed in that way. I see that I see that, and so this is where we get to change. I support human resources professionals, but I want to be clear that this is not solely the responsibility of human resources professionals. It certainly isn't solely the responsibility of managers to drive DEI, I think managers have a very unique position, because they really do influence, them along with HR, really do influence the makeup of the organization, right? Managers are involved in hiring, compensation, people attribute an organization or just they deceive their decision to stay or go, oftentimes, falls on whether or not they have a good relationship with their manager, they may not be crazy about the company, but if they are loyal to their manager, they're more likely to stay for a little bit longer, right? So performance management, all of that is conducted through the partnership between managers and human resources, right? So that is why I think that, they can actually create this really strong and powerful symbiotic relationship. But that's not to say that leadership should not be involved, should not be held accountable, shouldn't have some sort of scorecard, where they have to follow up with their managers to make sure things are actually changing a there's evolution and they're being held to certain metrics. And I want to be clear that when I say metrics, I am not talking about adjusting quotas. I just want to be absolutely clear.
Erica D'Eramo 35:00
Thank you for being clear about that, yeah.
Martine Kalaw 35:03
When I say metrics, I'm looking at let's look at the numbers, let's look at where we are. Let's look at the rate of promotion, looking at different demographics. Let's look at different departments and the distribution of gender. There's some departments that distribution is great and organizations are proud of that. But then let's look at the departments where they're not so great and where's there opportunity? Right? Let's look at departments where there's really opportunity for growth, and how do we get more people, right, in these departments? This is what I'm talking about in terms of metrics when I, you know, let's look at conversion of our interns. If we have an internship program, what's that conversion rate? Okay, if we have a great conversion rate, where are we getting these interns, right? How are we are we widening our network? That is what I mean when I am alluding to numbers, I am not suggesting that we say, okay, well, we need this many of x in this department, so let's go out and recruit. That's too simple and it doesn't work. It doesn't last, it's not sustainable. Because as we alluded to earlier, the inclusion piece is just as important as the the diversity piece. So if we have lack of inclusion and representation, and people don't feel welcome, they're not going to stay.
Erica D'Eramo 36:37
Yeah.
Martine Kalaw 36:38
So it undermines the whole thing.
Erica D'Eramo 36:40
Yeah, I think the metrics that you choose speaks so directly to why are you doing this? Right? And if you're doing it to just get the shareholders off your back?
Martine Kalaw 36:52
Yeah.
Erica D'Eramo 36:53
Maybe you just measure top line diversity metrics, right, like percentage of women, percentage of people of color, etc and it looks representative. Okay, cool. But then we go one level deeper, if you actually want to examine whether you have a fair workplace, whether you have an equitable workplace, whether you have an inclusive workplace, you start looking at A) leading indicators, what are your pulse results saying, what are people actually saying, and you're gonna dig deeper if the true intention is to uncover additional opportunities for fairness. So that's why the pay gap is interesting.
Martine Kalaw 37:30
Yeah.
Erica D'Eramo 37:30
Because if you have 50% of your workforce is women and yet you have a massive pay gap, that's telling you those women are probably concentrated in roles in the organization that are paid less, or not given the same leadership opportunities, or they're not being promoted, right, et cetera. So if there's a true curiosity about it, and there's like a true endeavor towards fairness, representation and diversity of thought, then you're going to measure other things and you're not just gonna be satisfied with top line quota numbers.
Martine Kalaw 38:05
And organizations that are at that, that continuum, that level of the continuum, I'll say, are organizations that understand the impact, the overall value.
Erica D'Eramo 38:17
Yes the value.
Martine Kalaw 38:18
So it takes an organization to get to that point first, before they're willing to actually look at those metrics at that great level of detail, right? Because it's really daunting, it's really scary to look at that. I mean it really is, let's be honest with ourselves, because we can just look at overall, the trends for profit organizations, we can look at just the makeup of senior leadership, we can sort of do certain things. So, you know, when we start digging in deeper, we're going to uncover a lot of things that we don't like. But, if we remember, the reason we're doing this is because there's value, then that's the driver. So we have to be able to identify that first. Now, the thing is where some organizations are still stuck on, there isn't a return on investment, there isn't value, it's the right thing to do. So right, we're back to square one, we got to go beyond it being just the right thing to do. And what's that return on investment?
Erica D'Eramo 39:24
Yeah, nobody wants to know that there's termites in the foundation, but you're not serving anyone by ignoring it and not lifting them up, right? You're helping yourself to be sustainable in the end by actually understanding some of these vulnerabilities. Yeah. So I'm really curious what brought you to this sphere, what was your journey and motivation to tackle this?
Martine Kalaw 39:50
Yeah, absolutely. So I've spent over 10 plus years, running, learning and development departments. So my background is in learning development across different industries, organizations, whether it be global companies or national companies. So in that space, one, I was part of Human Resources team, right? So really understood the nuances of our positioning, Human Resources positioning, within the organization. Two, also just understanding the dynamics of how human resources partners with all the different various departments. In my time and working in learning development, I conducted a lot of training around what we were calling back, you know, we still call it unconscious bias training, right? So, that was really the extent to which, there was DEI training, but certainly it was there, and built out plenty of mentorship programs, plenty of Manager Development programs from scratch. So, I already had the foundation of all of these different components, and they were essentially building blocks, I just didn't know it. Back in 2016, I started my boutique company, really focusing on Manager Development, right, supporting managers and leaders within the organization, and then started to pivot around DEI. During the wake of the murder of George Floyd, I had a flood of past clients, reaching out to me saying, hey, Martine, we really need you, we need you to come in and step in and do this, XYZ. So I took all the different building blocks that I had and connected the dots, I mean, really, to me, it was pretty obvious based on what I was hearing, what I've observed, what I was observing two, three years ago, a year ago, connected the dots, right? Knowing that manager development is foundational, it's something that all solid and growing organizations should invest in, right? There's a should, but there's a lot of value in investing in Manager Development to equip and level set skills for managers, right, especially if you have a growing organization. Also understanding the role that managers play in the whole performance management process and how human resources also reinforces or sets the tone around that and then have a background of DEI, right? What I didn't mention is, I got my Master's in Public Administration. So really spent a lot of time in part of my grad school time learning and understanding organizational development, right, and the psychology of just organizations. So, combine all of that to do what I do now and what's great about it is I work with different organizations across different industries, whether it's banking, commercial, real estate, retail, and it's really fascinating, because what you do see is that there's some consistencies in the initial approach to DEI, right? But I'm also seeing that there are organizations who are really trying to do the right thing, they want to get it and they're trying to figure it out and they are open, right, to actually making and incorporating DEI into their business structure. And that's really, really exciting, right? You can see some organizations are on this end of the continuum, the latter end and they're really going, they really want to make change, and you also see some organizations that are still at the beginning stages, right? And what I like to say, like, the learning around DEI, it's a continuum, right? So we also have to give ourselves, each other grace. So for organizations that are not ready yet, to take those bigger steps, it's okay. Because they'll come a time where they might be ready, right? And so my job is to just to usher organizations when they're ready, right? Just plant a bug, plant a little seed and eventually, people will figure out that they'll figure it out for themselves.
Erica D'Eramo 44:42
Yeah, yeah. The motivation needs to be coming internally and the experts can help them achieve those goals. Yeah, yeah. So with this work that you're doing, what are some of the themes that you've noticed around the challenges that you've seen, whether that's through your lived experience or through the work with clients? Where are you seeing some of the major kind of stumbling blocks or bigger opportunities?
Martine Kalaw 45:13
Yeah, I will say that and I talk a lot about this in my, I offer a monthly complimentary masterclass to human resources professionals, and we talk about the five things that you can do within the next 90 days to sort of pivot and really start driving DEI and so, one of the things that I see is an opportunity, I'll position it that way, is driving, running metrics, looking at the numbers. I have organizations that will say, yeah, we've got, they'll want to use an HRIS a human resources system, to run metrics, or they'll want to use a tableau. There are lots of great tools out there. But we want to use tools that are specific to what we're trying to achieve, right? So it's like, you wouldn't use an HRIS system to track learning training, you would use learning management system. There are systems out there that actually look at DEI metrics, they're designed specifically for that. So, that's one of the opportunities that I think we have, right, to actually invest the dollars in using the right tools and systems to run metrics and look at metrics, and look at the cross section in metrics. So like I said, usually we start at that sort of superficial level, we look at the distribution of gender and race or ethnicity, and we say, okay, I think we're pretty good. We sort of reflect the US Census, so we're good, and then we leave it at that. But we can actually dig deeper if we really want to make change. Another thing that I see quite often is programming, right? I mean, I'm sort of just highlighting everything we've talked about throughout but I can't emphasize it enough that our response to DEI should, our initial response shouldn't be about programs, it should be about strategy, actually should be a number of metrics, and then strategy. Then the program comes third, right? It comes within the building of strategy. If it's the first thing, then we're kind of working backwards and we're sort of setting ourselves up to struggle a little bit. So, what I recommend is if you've got a bunch of a lot of, I'm not saying programs aren't great, I'm sure that there's some really brilliant programs that I've seen around DEI. But if you've got programs, fine, just go back and figure out what's the strategy around all these programs? How are they all connected? What's the transition? How does it tie back? So if you do some philanthropic work and you donate scholarship funding to a particular college or university? Maybe it's an historically black college university, HBCU or something to that effect. Then what right, like, how does that tie back? Is this school, this program that you're donating scholarship funding to, are those students going to somehow be part of your internship program at some point, like, how are we tying that back to pipeline? That's what I mean in terms of strategy, right? So that's what I encourage anyone, any organization that right now has a lot of great strategy, now start to connect the dots, right? So do that. So that's where I also see that there's opportunity. Then, lastly, is, again, it's usually the responsibility of one person, whether it's human resources, or sometimes there is a DEI expert, Chief Diversity Officer, Chief Inclusion Officer, but, one person cannot carry DEI throughout an entire organization, that is just not fair. So, if you really if we really want to...
Erica D'Eramo 49:31
Or impactful even, not fair or even not effective.
Martine Kalaw 49:36
It's ineffective. So if we really want to see change, and we really, really want to see the impact of DEI, then we have to be willing to invest in resources, in people, right? So that's not one person. That's not even two people. Right? It's a department.
Erica D'Eramo 49:55
It's an ecosystem even, yeah.
Martine Kalaw 49:57
Yeah, I mean, DEI is an ecosystem. There's so many different entry points that you can approach it, but start there, right? Identify what that potential cost would be, identify the return on investment. Right? Generally speaking, right? You may not have all the minute numbers, the specific numbers, but an idea, and then identify what that cost is going to be. In order for us to get to this, we need to invest in people and we're going to invest in tools or systems. And we need to invest in time to develop strategy, right?
Erica D'Eramo 50:41
Yeah.
Martine Kalaw 50:42
That's really what can set us up for more success. So that's where I see where we have opportunity.
Erica D'Eramo 50:50
Yeah, yeah, you get what you measure, right? So if you're measuring the wrong things that can be super detrimental and also someone is measuring your total expenditure, that number will get managed. And if you haven't put a justification and a value behind these efforts and this investment, then that will get cut. Yeah. So what resources would you recommend people look to? You mentioned some, but I just want to kind of distill that down a little bit.
Martine Kalaw 51:21
Lots of great resources out there. Certainly, I'm going to do a shameless plug for my own resources, my offer. I like to think that my book, The ABCs of Diversity: A Manager's Guide to Diversity, Equity, Inclusion, and New Workplace is a primer. The feedback that I get from readers is that this is really straightforward. It's digestible, it's accessible, that was the poin. I wanted to create something that felt like a workshop. But it was also digestible, right, and malleable. So, at the end of each chapter, there's an element, a section where there's like an exercise where you just kind of process things for yourself. Doesn't require a whole lot of work, it's just more of like thinking. Then, the next exercise is how you as a manager can apply this to your next team meeting. The next conversation you have with your teams. So that's one resource and I just think it's a really great foundational tool. Another thing that I offer, as I mentioned, is a monthly masterclass for HR professionals. If you're not in human resources and you want to join, please do come, right, you can find it, go to my website and just sign up, it's complimentary, it's one hour. The next one is April 27, from 12 to one. So if you go to martinekalaw.com you can access it. Certainly, I think that this era of podcasts is phenomenal, because there's so much great content out there. I mean, just tremendous. So at the very least, if you just as a listener, if you just don't know where to start and you're feeling overwhelmed, go on Google type in diversity podcast, just type it in, see what comes up, and then just tune into one thin. I guarantee you listening into that one conversation will be enlightening, it will help navigate you forward. Then certainly, you can also reach out to get consultative, that's something that Martine Kalaw Enterprises, we offer. They're also a myriad of other great resources and consultants and experts out there. I don't think that there's one that's better or worse, I think that each consultant, each organization, an expert has a different approach. So you just want to see what works for you.
Erica D'Eramo 54:02
Yeah, you and I both operate in similar spaces and yet probably have very different clients that will resonate and people work together as well, right?
Martine Kalaw 54:14
That's correct.
Erica D'Eramo 54:14
This is a space where there are a lot of people doing a lot of great work and we want to see them succeed.
Martine Kalaw 54:20
That's right and the thing is, there's enough room for everyone.
Yeah, right.
Audience's need to hear things from different perspectives, something, someone might resonate more with you or they might resonate more with me. So there's space for many of us in this conversation. So I think that's also important too, because when you're a DEI practitioner, there's this sort of, I've gotten the sense that there's this idea of like this scarcity mentality that's sort of permeating, percolating underneath it all, and there really isn't a scarcity in this, there's enough room for everyone. And we need as many people in this conversation as possible.
Erica D'Eramo 55:13
Honestly, I would love to work myself out of a job where we just have complete representation and equity and inclusion and there's no work left to be done, like, great, I'll go find something else to do.
Martine Kalaw 55:27
Absolutely. You know, we're going to get there slowly, but surely, it's going to take time. But like I said, when we think about inclusion, one of the things I'll leave us with is, as in organizations, we get to make the distinction as to how we're defining inclusion, is it assimilation? Or is it multiculturalism, because those are two things, right? So when we say inclusion, let's get really clear on what we mean by that.
Erica D'Eramo 56:02
One is sustainable and one's not right? I guess this is an assertion and a belief on my part that I don't feel that the assimilation, first of all, it doesn't bring the value of diversity with it, it's actually just incredibly inefficient. You're asking people to leave the value they bring to the table, leave that at home. Jodi-Ann Burey, just a quick plug for her TED Talk, where she talks about this actually, the whole idea of bring your whole self to work is very complicated issue and probably a bit trite. But if you are consistently bringing people in who then have to conform to this environment that's not conducive to them, that's where you lead to attrition. If we're looking at things from a problem solving point of view, like if I have a garden, and I plant onions in my garden and they thrive, and then one year, I'm like, well, why are my tomatoes not thriving? Okay, I'm just going to take a fully grown tomato plant, I'm gonna stick it in the same dirt, the same soil, and then I'm going to bemoan that tomato plant for its ethical failure and not thriving. That doesn't make it, we wouldn't do that. You'd say, oh, what's the chemical balance in the soil? What is it not getting that it needs to thrive? Because my salad is a whole lot better if I've got tomatoes in it, not like tomato failed to thrive, like, I didn't give it the environment. That's kind of where I see the assimilation versus the true inclusion is such a system issue. It just is not.
Martine Kalaw 57:44
Absolutely, I love that analogy by the way. That's fantastic. Yeah, it's going to and assimilation and multiculturalism, unlike assimilation does take a lot more time.
Erica D'Eramo 57:59
Yes, time, it might take you a couple of seasons.
Martine Kalaw 58:02
Yeah, it's gonna take a couple of seasons. So I think, I want to just give, share, remind organizations to give themselves a little grace with that. That I know that it feels like part of the pressure is feeling like, oh, my gosh, we've got so much to do, we're already so behind, but we're gonna get there, you know? One of the things I always say is, if we're trying to fix, we've got that fix it mentality, and we're expecting things to change overnight, well, it's just, it's sort of insulting to those of us who've been on this journey for a long time, who've been trying and trying to fix it. So, we just have to give each other grace in this space and know that things will start to change. Some things will happen more quickly than others. But if we've got strategy, we've got the metrics, we've got the numbers, we have a clear goal, then we're going to get there. We're going to get there eventually.
Erica D'Eramo 59:11
Yeah. Well, that's an uplifting note. Any last thoughts that you want to share? Maybe how folks can find you, you mentioned your website, any other interfaces?
Martine Kalaw 59:22
I would say go straight to my website, www.martinekalaw.com because you can then access, find me on social media, all my social media handles are there. You can schedule a consultation, a one on one consultation with me. You can join my masterclass, it's all one stop shop right on my site.
Erica D'Eramo 59:43
Excellent and that will be in the transcript in the notes for this episode so I we'll link directly to it. Thank you so much Martine for coming and sharing your expertise and your insights. It was a really great conversations.
Martine Kalaw 59:56
This was awesome. I enjoyed it. Thank you very much.
Erica D'Eramo 59:59
Yeah, absolutely. And as always, you can find Two Piers at our website, which is twopiersconsulting.com. And we're on the major platforms for social media at @twopiersconsult. So check us out and we'll see you next episode. Thanks.