In our first episode of Season 3, we're joined by fellow Two Piers coach Dr. Anthony Luevanos. In this episode, we explore how to go about selecting a coach - what to look for, what matters, and what might matter less than you'd think! We answer some of the common questions we encounter and share our own insights and lived experiences. This is also a great opportunity to get to know Anthony a bit better and understand his coaching style and who he works with as clients.
Transcription Below:
Erica D'Eramo 0:05
Hello and welcome to the Two Piers podcast, season three. We'll be kicking off this season today with an exploration of what to look for in a coach. So we get this question a lot and figured it was worth a discussion. In order to help kind of explore this, we have a special guest joining us today. So, fellow coach Anthony Luévanos who also coaches with Two Piers Consulting.
Welcome, Anthony.
Anthony Luévanos 0:45
Thank you. I appreciate it. It's good to be here. So glad I get to join you on the season three podcast this so much fun.
Erica D'Eramo 0:55
Yeah, I always love having good guests on it really makes podcasting a whole lot of fun. So, Anthony and I have kind of talked about this in the past about what we like in a coach, what we see as valuable in a coach, but with the amount of times that we've fielded this question, we thought, you know, why not have a discussion? He and I might have kind of different points of view on this. So yeah, Anthony, what are your thoughts just to kind of kick off?
Anthony Luévanos 1:28
Sure. Well, I think one of the very first things that you always think about is whether or not to do the research, or whether or not to do, just get one under your belt. So, there are definitely those two different ways and maybe even more, but you could do the all the research you want on a particular coach and then get to that coaching experience, and then realize, oh gosh, this isn't working, or never have done the research, get one under your belt and realize that this is the one you just don't want to stick with the rest of your life. So there's nothing like getting that experience in there firsthand to establish that coaching relationship. But also, you could do a hybrid and do a little bit of research and get one under your belt, and then move on from there.
Erica D'Eramo 2:25
Yeah, I think a lot of coaches offer kind of either a free consultation or get to know me session in advance. So that would definitely be something that I would recommend taking them up on that offer. I know at Two Piers, we offer a free 45 minute consultation first. That really is for people to get a feel for our vibe, our style for us to explain what they should expect out of coaching and how we coach and for them to make a decision at that point, if it sounds like a match or if it doesn't sound like a match. That happens on both sides too. So, I certainly want a client to use that time to decide if they feel like I'm a good match for them as a coach. And similarly, if I sense that, you know, I'm not the right coach for that client, I'll let them know. It might be, you know, that actually, Anthony might be a better match for them as a coach based on style or background. So...
Anthony Luévanos 3:30
And you know, sometimes you just run into these coaches that are just amazing. I mean, they can switch from coaching style to coaching style and they are great adapters at whatever you throw at them. So, that's why I say you can do the research or all the research you want, but getting that first under your belt and getting familiar with the coaching process and the experience is, I think, essential for all clients. You may run into that coach in that rare occasion that can adapt to you and adapt to what you need, and really have a great positive experience and get some really great stuff. So don't sell a coat short if you've done all your research and you're thinking well, this particular coach may not really fit my style, who I am, my personality but I would say cut the coach a little bit of slack, experience the coaching firsthand and see how it goes. Sometimes there's the off chance that you can go on a blog or read a profile on one of these coaching certification agencies or associations and kind of get a little bit of background. But that experience really doesn't do justice to what that coach can bring. Let's be honest, all coaches on their profiles, depending on how often they check those profiles and then how often they update their description online. Coaches change over time and some coaches, they constantly are in that space of learning and evolving as coaches. So just remember that when you're shopping around for a coach.
Erica D'Eramo 5:45
Yeah, I completely agree, I think there's no, there's no guarantee from doing any of the background research that it's going to be a match as far as style goes. Just like for those of us that have experienced the online dating world, you could find a perfect profile that looks like it's going to be an exact match. But, there's something about chemistry that really makes a big difference. I don't think I know of too many coach, I don't think I know of any coaches that don't have something in place to kind of accommodate for a mismatch in chemistry. So, I would certainly recommend if you don't get a complimentary session or kind of a get to know you session, if you're going straight into a paid coaching engagement, make sure that the coaching agreement has something in there to accommodate for if it's not a match. If you get through that first session, do they have a refund policy? Will they allow you to cancel the engagement. You don't need to have something go wrong in a coaching session for it to just not feel like a match, because it's very, it's very unique and very personal. So yeah, I agree, getting one under your belt is kind of critical to making sure that it's the right coach for you.
Anthony Luévanos 7:16
Oh, for sure.
Erica D'Eramo 7:17
What are some other...Yeah, sorry, go ahead.
Anthony Luévanos 7:19
No, I was just thinking, you know, you don't want to get into a coyote ugly situation and you're just trying to chew your arm out of that bear trap, you're like out of the bear trap, like, oh, my gosh, I just committed six sessions or bought six sessions with this person. So yeah, that's a good point, Erica. But yeah, like you were asking some other aspects is, you know, what do you want to get out of the coaching experience? Yeah, what do you envision for your experience? Some of the things that you can think about, or do you want to set goals for yourself? Are you looking for a partner in a visioning process? Do you want to challenge yourself in some aspect of life? Are you trying to solve a problem, think through a situation? Even as basic as overcoming intergroup conflict and trying to get some ideas and having that coach just help you dig deeper, to get just a different perspective on life experiences and how to think through these things. So, those are those are important points when you start considering what coach or a type of coach you want to work with so that you can have an opportunity really to move throughout these different situations. I mentioned before, a coach can really, great coaches can really adapt to different scenarios and they can really help you move through these spaces. So often, you're in a situation and there are lots of coaches and some coaches specialize with particular clients that have a particular outcome, or they're thinking about something that they want to get done through the coaching experience. So just remember that when you're reading a profile and when you're interacting with somebody, make sure that that is a good fit for the expected outcomes that you have.
Erica D'Eramo 9:36
Yeah, yeah, I think that, especially as coaching is becoming more well understood and people are understanding that, you know, coaches partner with their clients, we're seeing a bit less of this, but oftentimes, there's just a really basic misunderstanding of what coaching provides and people are expecting that they'll meet a coach and get a lot of advice. Sometimes that's what they want and sometimes we know advice can not be as helpful as we expect it to be. So that's another thing to get clear with your coach on at the beginning, what is it that you're looking for? Because I know that if I made a client or potential client who says like, I just want you to give me career advice, I'll usually take that opportunity to take a pause and understand what are you hoping to seek by getting my advice? Because in a coaching context, we generally don't give advice, right? That's one of the things that people are often surprised about that we tend to avoid giving advice because we deeply believe that our clients know best, their own situation and know best what is right for the and so we help them uncover that. But being clear about what your outcomes are and what your goals are, will be really helpful in that coach understanding A if they're a right fit for you, and B, what that engagement might look like, what the arc of the engagement might look like and how they can be helping you to measure milestones, measure progress against that. So yeah, those are definitely important as you're starting on your coach discovery adventure.
Anthony Luévanos 11:27
For sure and I keep thinking about this, there's an image in my head that I keep going back to every time I have a coaching session and that image is the difference between someone with a flash, between following someone with the flashlight, the coach, being the one with the flashlight, and kind of leading and lighting the way versus the coach being behind the client and kind of lighting the way for the client wherever the client wants to go.
Erica D'Eramo 12:00
Yeah.
Anthony Luévanos 12:00
So, you know, it's a subtle difference but it's very important in terms of how you treat the how you treat the client or coachee, how you treat them and how the experience for the client goes. Because as a coach, you always want to be that person that says, where do you want to go with this conversation? What do we want? What do you want to accomplish at the end of this, so that the client can have some autonomy on or over where they'd like to take the conversation and how to move through X, Y, and Z?
Erica D'Eramo 12:43
Yeah, yeah. I mean, that kind of brings us on to topics of like, style and structure, actually. So, we've touched on style a little bit in chemistry, but I think coaching style to me is a really, maybe one of the most important factors for me when I'm seeking coaches, because, believe it or not, like most coaches have a coach, I think it's really good as a coach for me to also have a coach because I get to sit in the client's seat quite a bit, it keeps my skills honed, it keeps me empathetic towards my clients. So yeah, what I look for in a coach is really style above all else. That blends a bit into structure, how do they like to structure things, but I think what works for me won't necessarily work for other people and vice versa. So there's no right or wrong style, necessarily. I guess there are some styles that don't really adhere to what the ICF would consider coaching. But it's not a bad thing if you meet a coach and their style doesn't match yours, their style will match someone else's needs. So, just to be real with that, because I think so often in this world, we're taught to adapt to the hierarchy, adapt to the people that we're working with. In this case, I don't know that that's quite as important. It's important for the coach to be able to adapt, but for the client to be able to adapt to a coach's style is less important, actually, I think finding a style that works naturally is the most important. There's a lot of styles out there and some of the coaching databases like ICF will often ask how do you describe your style as a coach? And if they're looking to match people, they'll say, what style of coaching do you prefer? So what do we mean by style, I guess. So, Anthony, what do you think of when I talk about coaching style?
Anthony Luévanos 15:05
Well, I mean, honestly, just think of your attitude and your approach, kind of meeting the client where they are and just kind of getting a general feeling for how hard to press in, when to pull back, going at the pace of the client. That's important whenever you're thinking about, okay, well, this client seems the need to be challenged, they need a more direct approach. When you're coaching it does seem that coaches often find themselves moving from one place to another, depending on the particular topic or maybe even the general clients disposition. And so, attitude is really important when you're coaching a client. So when you're selecting a coach, understanding, you kind of have at the outset to have an understanding of what that coaches style is, whether they're more direct and firm or just non direct and gentle, unstructured versus structured. So oftentimes, we always hear coaches say that they have just a solid set of questions and those are the questions that they ask. I mean, that works, for some situations, but an unstructured approach is just as effective with clients.
For me, yeah, I would definitely advise clients or potential clients to look for those little things in terms of style. Because depending on what you need, whether you need some motivation or you need some inspiration, or you need someone that just practical, you need someone to guide you through that again, that process of thinking through a more practical situation, then, yeah, definitely. I would say, look at that coaches client comments, perhaps the coach has some quotes that clients have given them to kind of get a sense of what that coach is like. While one client may say one thing about this particular coach's style, another client might experience the same coach in a different way. And again, that will definitely show you, give you a deeper understanding of how that coach can adapt to different clients.
Erica D'Eramo 17:57
I think that's one of the other reasons it's important to like you said, get one under your belt, because while you might meet a coach, and like getting to know you meeting, and they might say that they have a quite gentle style, you'll really just be able to tell in the session itself. We're all a bit subjective about our styles. So even for me, understanding my style sometimes comes through seeing client testimonials, where they'll say things like, very supportive or created a very open safe space for me. And I think like, oh, that's great. Okay. I'm glad that that's how my style is coming. But it's easier to see it from the outside than the inside, necessarily. But yeah, I think, you mentioned supportive versus challenging, some clients really like to be challenged. They like that tension that directness, and other clients, especially if they're getting a lot of that challenge from their current work environment, they need something a bit warmer and more supportive and understanding like where you're at right now, how you like to be challenged, how you like to be held accountable. Whether you want your coach to do more of the same of what you're used to or whether you want them to provide like a breath of fresh air and maybe a different style than what you're used to encountering at work or in your life, understanding that can be really, really helpful.
You mentioned structured versus unstructured and I think that there will usually be some level of cadence, some level of arc to the conversation in a client session or in a coaching session, but how structured that is and how much it varies from one session to another is quite dependent on the coach I think. So, for clients who really want to, they want to just land in the day and talk about whatever is top of mind that day and just kind of fly by the seat of our pants like stream of consciousness. I'm cool with that, if that's what they need in the moment, and if that's what works for them. But I know some coaches will really work to make sure that they stick to a structure. So if you're someone who likes that, who likes to structure who needs that, it's to kind of be brought back to home base and stick to it. Knowing that is really good because if you're not like that and you want to just sort of do stream of consciousness and the coach is bringing you back consistently, that kind of friction can really be challenging in a coach client relationship, I think.
Anthony Luévanos 20:52
Oh, gosh, yeah. I mean, I enjoy structure just as much as you know, I guess the next person. But I also like where more of the Tai Chi of coaching experience, you know, you go with the flow, and you do again, you reach that arc, and you come to a conclusion eventually. But it's important to know, again, I go back to what I said before, what are your expected outcomes? What do you want out of this coaching experience and that in hand, or that in mind, shop for a coach, if you want to do the research shop for a coach, but, definitely just get one on your belt. And I'm telling you, it's better if you don't overthink it and just get one in, because then you'll know, okay, well, that didn't go so great or maybe I just, I wasn't sure really what I wanted to get out of this experience, but at least you got one or you know what to expect in that coaching space. So, just get one under your belt, that's all I have to say.
Erica D'Eramo 22:09
Yeah, and I don't think you need many coaching sessions to understand if the coach is the right coach. You'll know the first coaching session, whether you have chemistry and whether their level of structure works for you. So you know, it really is like one session, you'll have a good feeling of whether it's a match. I do think over time I've probably moved towards more structure with my clients because I find that it's tended to lead to better outcomes for them. But it really is dependent on the goal. So kind of to circle back to what you said about what do you want to get out of the coaching, if my client really just needs a space to unpack, to understand their own thought process, to feel heard, to verbalize things that they hadn't verbalized before, that might look less structured. If they want to come out of the session with a prioritized list of five things to do, then that session might have more structure and we'll have a halfway checkpoint and we'll revisit, are we still on track? I do that in all my sessions anyways, but, I think that the type of goal will lend itself to more or less structure. So yeah, so probably finding a coach that can be flexible within that is is going to be important.
Anthony Luévanos 23:49
I wanted to ask you how important is background?
Erica D'Eramo 23:55
Well, I would say that background, like a coaches background as in what their career path was, or them having shared lived experiences with us, it certainly plays a role in that. I think it can allow us to become comfortable more quickly, it can help to increase psychological safety if we feel like that person has a similar journey or similar challenges to what we've experienced. I would say that it can be a bit of a red herring sometimes as well. So if we feel like we need a coach who has lived that same experience to us, that could really narrow our field quite a bit, especially if they're very unique experiences. Like me, for me, having worked overseas, worked on offshore facilities, if I had been looking for a coach who had had exactly that experience, I might have been looking for a long time. The reality is that while I certainly would feel like that person knew what I was talking about, if I use some of the jargon or the lingo, I have had coaches who have none of those shared experiences that have coached me extremely well. So often, we unnecessarily kind of limit that scope of potential coach, if we're looking for that. That's my thought on background.
Anthony Luévanos 25:40
Yeah, no, that's a good point, it really is a good point, because, I go at it from two different, I guess, ends and similarly to you, I mean, background matters to me, dependent upon my outcomes, my expected outcomes. If I need to think through a situation, I might lean towards someone more with some similar experiences, maybe not the same. But I don't totally kick out and someone that doesn't have the same background only because, again, it depends on what I'd like out of the coaching session. I tend to think that sometimes get taking yourself out of the element, out of that space, where, okay, this person is in the field of, you know, marketing and they have so much experience there. But I'm in science and while that may come into play at some point, I don't totally think that a coach with a different background than the client is going to get less quality from that particular coach. They may actually help that client to think through some issues in a different way.
Erica D'Eramo 27:16
Exactly. Yeah, I think the similar background piece is very much a double edged sword to me. So sure it can help to accelerate that psychological safety piece, you're using the same language, often, you're kind of used to thinking of things, you can make references, and know that that person will understand it. Yet, it can be really challenging when your coaches had, as a coach, maybe speaking as a coach, it can be really challenging when your client has had a lot of the same experiences that you've had to not get in the box with them, like we say, in coaching, right? To not try to fix the problem. There can sometimes be a higher risk of a client deferring to the coach and asking for advice. Because there is that potential differential of seniority or differential of experience in that field. So we end up kind of being pulled towards that consultant mindset instead of the coach mindset, just because it's very easy to say, well, what did you do, if that person's lived it? I find that as I'm doing coaching for longer, I'm getting more used to that, and it's okay if somebody says, well, what did you do? And I understand how to answer that question without giving them advice. But I do think that it can, yeah, I can have its upsides and its downsides. Because if you want to consultant then that person and if that person is going to act as a consultant in that moment, then it should be really clear, right? I'm taking my coach hat off, now. I'm gonna put my consultant hat on. That starts to muddy the waters a little.
Anthony Luévanos 29:11
Yeah and I want to go back to what you had said earlier. I mean, providing that safe space, sometimes this is an essential piece of how you want to experience your coaching session. There's so often times where clients can come to us with some with some traumatic experiences, and the only way that they feel safe sharing or thinking through this situation is by having someone with some similar experiences and being able to identify in a coach is professional. Erica, I mean, I know that when they would come to that place of hey, what did you do? Well, let's get what you want out of this experience. And good coaches adapt to that situation, they'll know, okay, wait, hold on, I'm not here to really provide mentoring or go into a consulting role here during this coaching session. But, sometimes you need someone that you that you feel safe with, and safe with sharing, because there's some commonalities there in terms of experiences on the job and personal experiences. I don't know, what do you think? I mean, is that a legitimate thing to think about when you're shopping around for a coach?
Erica D'Eramo 30:56
Yeah, I think. I think it's kind of like I'm an experienced client now as well, too, in a way, right? We've sat in the clients seat so much that if I encounter a coach who is like... I'm not going to ask a coach for advice, right? So in that regard, I don't end up encountering that. But I do think I've encountered coaches very early. In fact, I had kind of a negative experience when I first looked for a coach just because I couldn't find anyone that seemed to specialize in my area of what I was looking for, which was support for sort of first level leaders, for women working offshore. Again, very niche, very narrow, but I just found like an executive coach. So, I just remember, describe, and the person was a really good coach, and I enjoyed working with them. And also, when I explained kind of like, what life was like working offshore, just like normal life, that was not something they'd encountered before. And I remember them sort of saying, like, well, that just sounds like you should probably quit and find something else. And I thought, like, oh, you just don't get it. I mean, as a coach, they probably shouldn't have said that. But that part was like, right, okay, I probably need to find somebody who's at least not going to be like, whoa, that's so foreign to me that I think you should change careers. So, so yeah. That's my feelings on background, it can be helpful to have like a framework to understand that you share with your client to understand what their career looks like, and what their lived experiences are. I sometimes love getting fresh perspective from somebody who has never been there as long as it's maybe delivered in the right way.
Anthony Luévanos 33:13
Yeah, and you bring up a good point, you know, kind of our next point is experience level. How important is experience level?
Erica D'Eramo 33:22
So yeah, I think that for experience level, I've met some really just life changing coaches that are at the beginning of their coaching journey that I'm really glad to have had an opportunity to work with and be coached by. So I don't think that experience level is necessarily a must have, I think you can find a good match. Often, coaches who are at the beginning of their journey might be more accessible in terms of their availability, in terms of their fee structure, even. Oftentimes with more experience comes the ability to charge higher rates. I mean we should all be compensated for the value in the experience that we bring. So I don't have any issue with that. I think it's an art and a science. I've seen that some coaches that have more experience under their belt, while it's not a guarantee that they'll have fine tuned that in fact, sometimes they kind of fall back on like... I've met coaches who have so much experience but maybe have never gone through ICF accredited training or certification to sort of fall back on their experiences. Like, well I don't need to do any more learning, I've already done it. I have 20 years under my belt. I mean, I find that those haven't been a match for me. So that's something to keep an eye out for. But certainly, like my mentor coach has a great deal of experience and she, her coaching is an art form, like, she's an artist, and she is very inspired in what she does and inspiring and what she does. She really has it tuned in, and that she has that gut instinct at this point. So, so yeah.
Anthony Luévanos 35:25
I was just gonna mention for our viewers or listeners, ICF is the International Coaching Federation. It's a certifying body for professional coaches. So, you can have different levels of certification, ACC, PCC and MCC. But yeah, that's a really good point, more experience doesn't guarantee a great coaching session, less experience may provide you with the fresh perspective. It's sometimes, again, a good thing to get a good session in with someone that doesn't have quite as much experience, not spend a pretty penny. But yeah, be sure that you're aware of the cost involved in hiring someone that looks like they have lots of experience and will cost you a lot of money.
Erica D'Eramo 36:25
Yeah, again, I think like having a first session, you'll know. And that's why it's good to understand your coaching agreement and understand, if you are signing on with a very experienced coach who has many hours and high profile clients under their belt, but it's not a match, what does that look like in terms of being able to cancelling engagement? Or get a refund? Or what is the commitment there? So, so yeah, I'm kind of a complicated, complicated one. So, the other thing we get asked about a lot is niche. What kind of coach are you? I often get asked are you at a life coach? Are you a career coach? What kind of coach are you? So I mean, what are your thoughts on niche?
Anthony Luévanos 37:20
Me, I would say that I'm a universal guide. Yeah, that goes into anywhere from starting up a new venture in life, to learning how to deal with the situation and being flexible in that space is really important to me as a coach, but then also as someone looking for a coach, I would say, finding someone that has diverse experience, or a variety of experience, would be a great thing to consider when you're shopping around for a coach, because you just never know, again, life happens during any one of the coaches that you run into, and they may carry with them a great variety of perspective. My niche again is anywhere from executive level leaders to a parent just trying to think through a situation. I hold them both at the same level of esteem. I think maybe, I may not be thinking through this as much as I should, but I may not be a good coach for someone that is maybe a astronaut. You never know, I mean, but, depending on the topic, depending on the situation, depending on the expected outcomes. I mean, I could be, it just really depends, but, niches is kind of one of those things where, as you mentioned earlier, how important is background? While it might play some a role in the coaching session, it's not the thing that should that usually drives clients towards particular coaches, or that coaches typically think, well, I only specialize in these types of clients. A good coach is adaptable. But, some coaches take clients that have particular needs and that's okay.
Erica D'Eramo 40:13
Yeah, I think for me it's interesting, because I think there's a lot of pressure on coaches to choose a niche, and to "niche down". But that's more about having a message that is accessible and palatable to clients. In my opinion.
Anthony Luévanos 40:34
Yeah.
Erica D'Eramo 40:35
Because we don't know how, if you just say I'm a coach, okay, what kind of coach and what do you coach, right? Because we have various definitions of coaches in this world. I'm not a soccer coach, or a football coach. But I don't like differentiating between being a life coach or career coach, I mean, because I find that those two are never really separable. If somebody wants to work on their career goals with me, their life will become a part of that conversation and vice versa. So I think that the framing is often for clients, that being said, career transition coaches who specialize in a certain period of time, they might have a network that is helpful for you, they might have skills in reviewing your resume and updating it, they might have these other elements of almost consulting that they can thread into their practice. A health coach probably would also have certain elements of that, so they might have tools that they use to help their clients achieve their goals. So I can see those types of niches being important, but oftentimes, the coach will be whatever type of coach you need on that day. So even if they're a career coach, show up and you just say, my cat died today, they're not going to be like, well, let's talk about your career anyways, right? You're going to need to process what's going on in your life at that moment. So with that? Yeah. Thank you for helping to explore some of these elements of how to find, select, keep a coach. I know that it's been a journey for me to understand what my preferences are, and in what I like and value from my coaches, so I thought this would be a good one for us to talk about.
Anthony Luévanos 42:44
Yeah, yeah, really. I mean, I honestly, I just, I keep thinking, you know, being kind of the the adapter, like the coaching ninja, so to speak. I think that term is played out, but the Navy Seal of coaching, if you will. But, yeah, it's important to consider all these aspects that we just talked about today, because they do play a major part. Once you get a coach, it's a way to get to where you want to go a lot faster.
Erica D'Eramo 43:19
Yeah, I agree. I think, for me, having a coach in my life has been really important in achieving my goals. It's been transformational for me and I really want to offer that to my clients as well. I do offer that to my clients. So certainly, I look forward to working with more clients that feel like I'm a good match for them. That's always important to me that my client feels like I'm a good match for them and that I help them achieve those goals. Yeah. So for Two Piers Consulting, we appreciate you joining us for this podcast episode. If you want to learn more about our services or keep up with us on social media, you can find us at twopiersconsulting.com and you can book a get to know you session or a free consultation with either Anthony or myself if you feel like we might be a match for you for coaching. You can also follow us on the social media channels. So we're on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, and LinkedIn at Two Piers Consult. So we look forward to seeing you in our next episode. Thanks
