The Stress Effect

Since 1992, April has been recognized as Stress Awareness Month. Chronic stress has been shown to negatively impact health in a multitude of ways, and enduring high levels of stress can decrease performance at both an individual and organizational level. Research also indicates that stress can impact historically marginalized communities in more extreme ways. In this podcast episode, we explore ways to recognize and address stress in both yourself and your team, and the importance of understanding how it manifests uniquely for each of us.

Transcript below:

Erica D'Eramo 0:07

Hello, and welcome to the Two Piers Podcast. I'm your host, Erica D'Eramo. Today we'll be discussing stress. So we'll explore stress from a personal and physiological standpoint, but also from an organizational standpoint. We'll discuss ways to recognize stress and ways to address it both for yourself and for your team. Thanks for joining us for this next episode of Season 3 of the Two Piers podcast.

For the past 30 years, April has been recognized as Stress Awareness Month. It's a time in which we can raise awareness about the health impacts of stress, and how it affects both ourselves and those around us. So I wanted to start this podcast out with a personal anecdote back from 2016. So at that time, I had just wrapped up a really high stress, high stakes job working offshore, rotating internationally kind of working on a boat. And I just started a sabbatical, I had just started this company Two Piers, I'd also just gotten married, we just had like a little ceremony with friends and family up in Massachusetts kind of signed the paperwork out in a park with a town clerk, you know, nothing exorbitant. But I was also combining households at the time, now that I wasn't working offshore, we decided to renovate my house while we lived in my partner's house. I also decided to apply for some grad schools to start my MBA and explore grad school programs. Meanwhile, I was in parallel organizing the big wedding celebration that we would be holding in Houston, where, you know, our friends would travel from around the country, and it would kind of be the big party. So, I was doing all this while self managing ADHD and thinking to myself, like, oh, this is the low stress part of my life. This is the part where I've left the high stress work environment behind and now I can just focus on some personal things for a little bit. Then, all of a sudden, I started seeing these symptoms of what looked like an allergic reaction, almost like I'd eaten something that I was allergic to. And we could not figure out the source. I talked to doctors, and we tried eliminating pretty much everything from my diet. They put me on some oral steroids, and yet I was still seeing these like big red blotches that would just come out of nowhere and it persisted. I tried antihistamines, I tried Benadryl, which is an antihistamine, but you know, these all have side effects. So the steroids can make you like a little edgy or cranky, they can cause like increased appetite, decreased metabolism, the Benadryl makes you sleepy and groggy. Just a whole cocktail of things that someone who is about to have to get in a little white dress does not, does not want to deal with. And I just felt increasingly helpless and frustrated. And then we like had no answers. So it just happened to be that in those days leading up to the wedding, I offhandedly mentioned to my OBGYN during my annual appointment that I was having these like, allergy symptoms, and we couldn't figure out what it was. I'd like gone to hypoallergenic everything. And I was essentially eating just like bowls of rice at that point. She laughed and was like, "Well, it's the stress silly." And I thought like, I'm not stressed.

There's no stress, like, what I'm not even like doing anything I'm, I'm, I'm not working offshore anymore. So this is like the low stress period. And she kind of like rattled off all the things that I was doing, these major life changes that I was tackling all at once. And I realized, like, oh, right, I am stressed. It's just a different type of stress. I was so just caught up in the sheer number of things I had to get done and just entirely focused on powering through that I really hadn't even considered the magnitude of what I was trying to accomplish. And it just didn't fit in my paradigm either of what I thought stress looked like. So instead of being in an environment where people could die if I made a mistake, or we were always on edge, and the hours were really long, and there were sleep deprivation, it was a different type of stress, but stress that I had gotten used to, in a way. And now I told myself, you know, I'm just like, I'm arranging Airbnb reservations for family members, and travel plans and catering reservations and this is easier stuff. But it wasn't, it wasn't easier stuff, there were lots of interpersonal interactions going on, there was a lot to juggle, there were a lot of disparate work streams happening with pretty high stakes. So, yeah, I finally realized what the source of this reaction was, and it was my own body kind of saying, like, timeout, stop, that's enough, you're not going to acknowledge the stress unless we do something that's unavoidably recognizable here, was like putting up a warning flare to say, like, cut it out, this isn't sustainable. And it did right before the big wedding event in an unavoidable way. So, it was clear, once it was clear what the source of the stress was, or what the source of the this reaction was, I was able to take measures to kind of intervene, and I was able to sort of delegate a lot of stuff and let go of some of the perfectionism around it, and just sit my butt down and do some meditation, which really, really helped. And so in those photos from that day, I managed to get into that little cream colored Diane Von Furstenberg dress after all, and there's no big red blotches in any other photos. But, I still look back on that and think, how unaware I was of my own stress levels, and whenever I start to feel stress kind of reaching those unsustainable levels in my life, I remember like there's a potential allergic reaction around the corner that might kick in, that I'll then have to deal with in parallel, when my body just says, nope.

So what's the point of this story? What's the learning that I want our listeners to take away? Well, there are a couple, one big piece of it is the connection between mind and body, they are in fact, one in the same. So our brain's primary function is actually to maintain what's called allostasis. And you might not have heard that word before. So that's the process in which a state of internal physiological equilibrium is maintained by an organism in response to actual or perceived environmental and psychological stressors. So Lisa Feldman Barrett explains this in actually both of her books that I've read, she might have more than two books, but the two that I've read are, How Emotions Are Made, which goes very much in depth around how our brains function and the connection between emotions and physiology. And then her other book, Seven and a Half Lessons About the Brain, which is a very engaging and easily approachable book, so I highly recommend it. So she explains that the brain's primary function is not actually thinking, even though that's what we normally think of when we think of the brain. The brain's primary function is to keep you alive. So all of the signals that are transmitted, all of the chemicals that are released, the physiological changes that we then interpret as emotions, for example, my stomach feels queasy, and my blood pressure has gone up and I'm starting to sweat, therefore, this is stress. Those are the result of our brain trying to predict and prepare for whatever will keep us alive. And it does so by budgeting and then deploying the resources that we have. So the energy that we have from eating food, or the water that we have available, the hormones that we have available, but sometimes the perceived threats that we're physically prepared to tackle in that state of elevated stress, that like acute stress, are not the actual deadly threats that we think they are.

Instead, we end up with this chronic enduring stress, which ironically, does not help keep us alive. In fact, it shortens our lifespans. So stress is tied to myriad health conditions that can negatively impact not just our quality of life, but also the length of our life. So in that episode from 2016 that I just discussed, I had a case of acute stress that was layered on top of chronic stress and that manifested into a visible physical reaction. However much of the impact to our bodies and health are just not so easily recognized. But that doesn't mean they're not occurring and enduring. So according to the APA or the American Psychological Association, chronic stress can affect both our physical and psychological well being by causing a variety of problems including anxiety, insomnia, muscle pain, high blood pressure, and a weakened immune system, which you know, during a pandemic is certainly not what we want. So chronic stress, we know is tied to heart disease and even those that do not have heart disease can suffer a heart attack due to an acute bout of stress. So as we approached April this year, and I was thinking about all these amplifying stressors that play layering on top of each other, the incredible amount of stress that most people are managing just day to day already, plus we had a war kicking off in Europe, we had these terrible stories of pain and destruction and talk of nuclear war at play, COVID cases going up and down, surging, but certainly regulations are changing with mass mandates, and people are returning to the office and managing that in a new world of hybrid work or fully returned to work. And oh, April is tax season. So you know, that annual low stress time for everyone where they're getting all their stuff done. And you know, maybe you got your taxes done in January, but I don't know how many people were battling up to the last minute to get taxes done in April. So I'm sure it's just a coincidence that April was chosen as stress Awareness Month, but I certainly saw lots of seasonal stress. And the days are getting longer, which everyone tends to think of as a good thing. And I do think it's a good thing, I think seasonal affective disorder tends to hit people in the winter, when the days are short, we have a lack of sunlight, a lack of vitamin D. But as those days get longer, and our energy increases, sometimes that can lead to higher stress, it can actually lead to increased irritability for some folks and longer days and less sleep. So that light change in the positive direction, we should also be keeping an eye on.

So what can we do? I think we certainly can't change individually, we can't change outcomes of international diplomacy or stop a global pandemic. But one of the most important things we can do is to recognize the stress itself. So that was the other key element from my story from 2016 was this ability to recognize our own kind of tells or identify our own signals from ourselves or our bodies that we are under huge amounts of stress. So we all have different ways that stress will manifest and it could be behavior like biting your nails, or eating sugary foods, or it could be exhibited through poor sleep. Maybe when you're experiencing high stress, you end up doom scrolling on social media for extended periods of time.

So we can learn a lot about our current state by just stopping to take a quick inventory of our behaviors of our rhythms and the sensations and experiences that we're having within our bodies. That's something that we call interoception. So a key to this activity of like taking that inventory is at least, to the best of your ability, trying to leave behind the stories about how stressed you should be right now. So just like in my story, where I felt like, I should not be stressed right now, because I'm not doing the normal things that I would think would stress me out. These are fun things to be doing. You know, picking out tile for the kitchen renovation should be a fun activity. I had my own biases and stories around what stress should look like and that got in the way of me being able to recognize what was happening with myself. Even more recently, a few weeks ago, I realized that I was crying intermittently from things that normally wouldn't cause such a reaction. And that's pretty unusual for me. And then it dawned on me that I was managing a massive amount of stress, coming up on the end of one cue, lots of due dates and deadlines and a lot of different responsibilities in different parts of my life that we're all just kind of landing at the same time. In a moment, I remember thinking, but I don't have anything to be stressed about. And just saying the words out loud, like, I think I've reached my full capacity and I'm approaching burnout was hugely impactful for me.

So being able to stop taking inventory, and just recognize what is versus what should be, can be really helpful in at least understanding where we're at on that scale of stress. And when we've moved from sort of peak operating for intermittent stress into the enduring chronic stress that is now reducing our quality of life and reducing our quality of work and having negative impacts. So while you know coming to that realization is not a cure in and of itself, it is the key to be able to make a change. So that's the key empowering information to be able to then make changes in your life and not just continue with the status quo. So you can start to monitor for when those sorts of, I'll call it a tell, those tells arise, even just when your pace quickens or you can feel your blood pressure increase, and I mentioned interoception. So that's when we are aware of the feelings within our body, and a lot of times yoga practitioners will discuss interoception, but it's being able to understand the small changes in your own physiology that normally you're not even thinking about. Once you can pick up on that, then you can make those adjustments and adjustments can take a wide range of forms. So it might be physical, you might notice that you're feeling elevated stress and you wanna go get some fresh air or go take a walk, maybe play fetch with your puppy, that's a great stress reliever. Or you know, play with your cat. Pets are huge stress relievers, when they're not stressed inducers at three o'clock in the morning. But you can also make environmental changes. So you can increase how much full spectrum light that you have in your workspace, you can put your noise cancelling headphones in and add some uplifting music, if you work better with music. Music and rhythm can be huge stress reducers. Maybe dancing is the way that you can reduce stress. It can also be psychological, we can reframe our situations and maybe understand the true likelihood of negative outcomes. So that threat that we're perceiving that's causing that fight or flight mechanism to kick in, what's the real likelihood that something bad will happen? And what does that really look like? That can take some of the weight out of it. Or perhaps, we stopped trying to control an outcome that isn't ours to control so that you know, there's mechanisms in the reframing that we can use. That's something that we do a lot in coaching is we can reframe things and understand what the true root source of the stressor is, and then how we want to understand it going forward.

But we can also make some big changes. If chronic stress is something that has been a battle for months or years, then it could be that you can say no to big projects, you know, no new projects, I'm already at capacity or no to people. And surrounding yourself with people who understand that and are okay with that can really improve our quality of life. And sometimes it's at a point where we understand that it's time to leave a job or a relationship that's no longer serving us and is the source of our chronic stress. And I recognize that's not always possible. That requires resources, privilege, etc. But a first step is even recognizing where the source of our chronic stress is coming from and what the impact is to our longer term lifespan and quality of life. So another thing to keep in mind, as we look at how we react and respond to stress is that our stress patterns can really be shaped by our past experiences, especially when those include trauma. So in their book What Happened to You?, Dr. Bruce Perry and Oprah Winfrey, do a great job of exploring stress patterns and stress response. I listened to that book on Audible and I thought it was wonderful to hear the discussion back and forth. They provide a PDF that has diagrams to walk through it, but I also think the paperback could be another great resource. So they discussed how individuals who have experienced unpredictable, extreme and or prolonged stress, particularly in their developmental years, may also experience sensitized stress responses. So that means that they're fight, flight or freeze reaction is just triggered more quickly. So if we think of like a curve, it looks more like a logarithmic curve that rises fast and then plateaus versus a linear curve, that's like a straight line in a upward direction. So this type of response, one point was the body's way of keeping that individual safe in the face of unpredictable danger. But it's not so easily turned off when it starts kicking in prematurely or causes a stress response that's no longer appropriate or helpful for us. So we see similar impacts with PTSD. And Dr. Bessel van der Kolk, actually explores this extensively in his book, The Body Keeps the Score. And I mentioned this because it can be really helpful to work with a trained certified therapist to address any past trauma that is negatively impacting how we experience and process stress in our day to day lives. That's not for everybody, not everyone is experiencing those sensitized stress responses due to trauma. But if you are, then definitely there is work to be done that a therapist can help with.

So we've talked about this from a personal perspective, but how about from an organizational perspective. Staying tuned into the stress levels of your team and your employees is critical, but we have to remember that each of us will exhibit and manage stress in our own unique way. So, if you as a team manager are an extrovert, and you think that the way for the group to blow off steam after a big deliverable is to have an off site or like a Zoom happy hour, you'll just need to be mindful that any introverts on your team are probably under increased stress due to that activity, and it's adding about a massive stressor instead of alleviating stress. Similarly, for the extroverts on the team, if they've been working from home extensively for enduring periods of time, that could be leading to feelings of isolation, and thus increased stress. So many times the narratives and myths we have around the value of the grind or toughing it out or putting in the elbow grease, they can actually do a disservice to us in recognizing and addressing stress. And yet, we know that chronic stress levels lead to decreased productivity, difficulty concentrating, increased interpersonal conflict and tension. And then, oversights and mistakes. So while we might mythologize and kind of hold up the grind and putting in the long hours as being somehow like, emblematic of a good worker, it can cloud our vision with recognizing stress and performance on the team. So allowing the stress to then continue to the point of burnout just results in more like days away from work cases, more medical leave higher turnover. And none of that is good for the bottom line. None of that is good for team cohesiveness or for furthering the mission of your organization.

And we also know that members of marginalized and underrepresented groups may not just experience additional higher levels of chronic and acute stress, but they also might have less leeway in addressing that stress in the workplace or showing vulnerability because they're facing biases and stereotypes that will limit the ways in which they feel they can talk about that stress or voice those concerns or be vulnerable. So getting to know each member of your team as an individual and establishing psychological safety and understanding how they cope with and manage stress are all critical leadership skills and frankly responsibilities of any leader. That doesn't mean that we need to entirely change the way the team works for each and every individual but, being able to treat everyone in the way that they will operate best will inherently be better for the team.

So if you are looking for support in dealing with a stressful work environment, or if you want to learn more about establishing healthy work practices in your team, you can get in touch with us at twopiersconsulting.com and you can schedule a free consultation and we'll talk about how we can help you. Our coaches and consultants are here to help you on an individual level and on an organizational level to help you thrive. We look forward to seeing you on the next episode of the Two Piers Podcast.

The Pay Gap Bot That Rocked IWD

International Women's Day can be a drag. Each year, we watch as the corporate world floods social media with supportive statements and images of women, while in the real world, we continue to see systemic disparity for women in the workplace, particularly when we look at the intersection of race and gender. This year, however, we were treated to a glorious Twitter bot - one that retweeted companies' IWD posts along with the median gender pay gap within their organizations. We got to speak with Francesca Lawson, freelance copywriter, social media manager, and co-creator of the Pay Gap Bot. Together we discuss corporate gender parity theater and the data that can help us see the current state of things (as well as what's still missing). Don't miss this fantastic episode!

To learn more about Francesca's work, visit www.francescalawson.com.

Transcript below:

Erica D'Eramo 0:05

Hello and welcome to the Two Piers Podcast. This is season three, episode two and today we have another great guest on the podcast. Her name is Francesca Lawson, and she's joining us from the UK. She's a freelance copywriter, a social media manager and the co-creator of the Pay Gap Bot, which many of us took notice of on International Women's Day this year, and it caused quite the conversation.

So welcome Francesca, thank you so much for taking the time to join us, especially when it's probably a quite busy time for you.

Francesca Lawson 0:50

But that was not a problem and thank you for having me on. You know, I really, really loves to tell you a bit more about about the Pay Gap Bot, how it all came about. I'm really pleased that you found it useful and interesting and on International Women's Day.

Erica D'Eramo 1:10

Yeah, I was telling a mutual acquaintance of ours before I knew she was a mutual acquaintance, that for me, International Women's Day can just be really tough because like my lived experience, and the lived experience of many of my clients is that we have not made as much ground as we would like to in terms of gender equity, particularly in the workplace. So when you see this kind of bow wave of posts from companies talking about how wonderful the women in their entities are and how much progress we've made, it just sort of rings a bit hollow. And so, International Women's Day can kind of be a downer for me because it's just that dichotomy between what I see in reality and then what I'm seeing on these externally facing brands. Your project was one of the highlights for me of International Women's Day where I actually saw it and thought like, yes, this is the real deal. This is shining the light on real data that exists that's being collected. So, tell me a little bit about how did you guys come to come to think of this idea? Put it in action?

Francesca Lawson 2:29

Yeah, so, I felt a lot of the same things that you did around International Women's Day, and especially because, you know, I'm in the sort of marketing and communications space myself. I have been in that unfortunate position of having to press publish on things which I know not to be true. You know, I've sat in meetings where we've been discussing, you know, what we're going to do for International Women's Day? How are we going to show our support for black lives matter? Shall we change our logo to a pride flag for Pride Month? And I've made myself really quite unpopular by trying to challenge that and ask the questions about like, okay, well, why do we want to communicate that? What are we doing behind the scenes that sort of in's us a place in that conversation? And of course, that's not what people want to hear. They want to hear, like, oh, great idea, you know, let's push out some really lovely messages, let's show our support and then, you know, it just covers up any sort of need to do the real work and behind the scenes to improve the lives of marginalized people within their organization, for example. So yeah, my sort of inspiration for wanting to create something like this was to put the data in the spotlight so that people can kind of see, you know, see the truth, understand that behind the sort of smiling photoshoot, and the kind of lunches and the webinars that there's real work still to be done. We want to sort of keep the focus on that real work that's to be done rather than just these kind of performative gestures.

Erica D'Eramo 4:19

Yeah. I almost am of two minds sometimes when it comes to the aspirational element of some of this that, like I do believe that if you can see it, you can be it and showing photos of people who wouldn't normally picture working in those environments can be an inspiration to that next generation and I think that that's important. And also, I'm not so sure that that's really the intention behind so much of this. And I think that a lot of times companies are trying to gain credit that they haven't quite earned yet. So, my own kind of humorous anecdote to that was when I worked on a facility where there were, I don't know, like, a little over 170 of us at a time. I was generally one of one or two women on the boat at any given time, or on the facility. And whenever the regional photographer would come out with like leadership, it was like I had a tail because they would be trailing me just like taking photos all the time. You know, you're not in your like best, you're in coveralls like, you know, it's, you're working offshore. So I finally had to stop and I actually really enjoyed working with a photographer, he was a great guy. But I had to explain to him like, I am not gonna let you take any more photos of me because these photos end up being used in our sustainability report or in internal or external marketing, that portrays that we have all these women working out here, when really, if you took a picture of the whole crew, including me, it would be quite shocking how few women there are. Yeah, I'm consistently hearing about how I got my position because I was a woman, I got my position because our number one priority was to promote women, because we're seeing all these photos, right and it's giving people the feeling that we've made so much more progress than we actually had. So there was actually a lot of backlash that wasn't even earned backlash. I kind of had to put a stop to it, I was like, I'm really sorry, but you can't take my photo anymore. It's like it doesn't align with what my real actual experiences. So when I see these International Women's Day, kind of posts, I just sort of, I always wonder like, what is the rest of the org look like behind this photo? Like behind this one woman? How many women? Did they leave behind the scenes? Like how many people didn't make it to this photo? So yeah, what are your thoughts?

Francesca Lawson 7:11

Absolutely. It's like, you know it's all about sort of, like accountability and honesty and fall for me. I just wonder sort of how the women that I kind of call for these photo shoots feel like, one day a year, the company wants to take notice of them? And what about all the rest and is my concern? I think fortunately, I've not been in that position myself, where I've been sort of like rolled out to for the cameras and for them to kind of promote themselves on the equality angle. I think that fortunately, there's the sufficient other women at my workplaces that they've ended up with that job. But then as well, you've got to wonder about who were the women that aren't in the photograph? Are we kind of just picking off one women of every major ethnicity to make us look like we're really good? And anti racism as well. Yeah, you just think, where are the rest? How do they feel about how their images are being used? Because, I think what it all comes back to for me is you want to use pictures of women for promotional reasons without actually seeing what challenges that they face, what the barriers are to their success in your organization and working towards removing them.

Erica D'Eramo 8:53

Yeah. So for all the people who have faced barriers along the way that then see these gleaming photos of the success stories, it almost sends a message of look, it's possible, like if you just try hard enough, because the message is always look, this woman, she tried really hard and she was really smart and she overcame racism, and she overcame poverty. And she overcame this and that and look at how successful she's been. So if you are just as tough or if you are just as resilient you also could be here too. It puts that little shine on it instead of taking the onus for some of these systemic inequalities back to the source, which is the entities that continuously perpetuate them.

Francesca Lawson 9:49

Yeah, that's a really interesting point. Because it is often that we talk about inspirational women and it's just like, why do we always have to be inspirational? Why can't we just exist and get on with our lives without sort of fear of like harassment either at work or in the street, and, you know, getting paid fairly for the value that we bring. Those things shouldn't be inspirational, they should be just sort of standard.

Erica D'Eramo 10:26

Right?

Francesca Lawson 10:27

Yeah. It's like, from now, when we talk about sort of these inspirational women it's like you say, it's sort of ignores the issues that they've had to kind of fight through, or potentially things that they've had to give up. Like a lot of women still have to make that choice between sort of career and family. And so, like, for financial reasons, and that's not inspirational to me if you know, okay, yeah, we've got a woman CEO, but you know, she's actually been unable to do something that she really wanted, which is sort of have a family. You know, that's not inspirational to me because it's not the full picture.

Erica D'Eramo 11:17

No, and I think that especially, so coming from engineering for me sometimes I just end up taking this very pragmatic view of like, okay, cool, you found that one person that defied the odds and put a spotlight on them, but, statistically speaking, if we look at the statistics, they are not representative of what you would consider equitable or fair if we look across the spectrum. So, we know that to be true, we know what would look representative. So what are the underlying causes, and then just go try to fix those underlying causes? These are symptoms. If you see your diversity and inclusion numbers or just your diversity numbers, not looking the way you would expect and they don't look representative of the population you're pulling from, or operating in, that would be a symptom. That's like, in and of itself, isn't the goal. Diversity in and of itself, like, sure that would represent if you had diversity, that would mean that people were being treated equitably, that you probably didn't have discrimination in your recruitment or in your promotion systems, but it's still just a symptom in and amongst many other symptoms, right? So, that I think gets really obscured when we just use these talking points and we find a single data point or a single human being that we can kind of shine a spotlight on and say like, but look, she did it, so you can too. Okay, cool, but like 99% of the other people who were in those circumstances did not and is that really what we want? Is that really gonna lead to the outcomes we want?

Francesca Lawson 13:03

Yeah, I think it's a really interesting point that you make about representation, because it's like even if you sort of put more like a wider range of people into those roles in your organization, if you sort of achieve representation, both in terms of like, race, gender, disability, etc. It's no use of just having representation, if the systems that created the inequalities are still in place, you know, there's work to be done on sort of like policy level and to sort of make sure that it's actually a place where people can thrive not just you put people in to makeup your diversity numbers and then wonder why they're leaving on mass or they're not advancing in their careers, and because, you know, under certain themes that are within the control of individual organizations that they can do so like they are in control of what they pay, for instance, and, you know, the, one of the kind of...

Erica D'Eramo 14:09

They would lead you to believe that they're not, by the way.

Francesca Lawson 14:12

Yeah.

Erica D'Eramo 14:12

Like, oh, but this is market or this is like what she made coming in, right? So like, we're gonna perpetuate that inequality. Yeah. Sorry.

Francesca Lawson 14:19

It's like one of the things that we've heard since we've had the pay gap bot life is like from airlines, for instance, the people like to make the excuse that pilots are predominantly men and they have the highest wages in the organization. Whereas the more service base roles, the cabin crew, the contact centers, they're predominantly female and they're sort of lower wage jobs. But then my question is, well, I'm not disputing that pilots should be paid generously. But why aren't the cabin crew in the contact center teams also paid generously...

Erica D'Eramo 15:02

Why aren't there more female pilots? Like, why?

Francesca Lawson 15:05

Oh totally, yeah.

Erica D'Eramo 15:06

Like what's happening in the recruitment system? Or what's happening in the development system? Like? I think so often, if we just take a snapshot at a certain period of time we can alleviate ourselves of the guilt about what we inherited, but then not do anything to actually try to change that. Is it right that pilots are generally mostly male? Just like engineers, you hear the same thing from the energy industry, right? Often they'll see the pay gap and explain it away that universities are graduating mostly men in these engineering programs and they tend to make more money than HR or like some of the support staff or the fields that tend to be more highly populated with women. Okay, well, we could probably ask why we're devaluing certain professions, which we know, as soon as those professions become more populated with women, they get devalued, like we've seen this time and again, so it's kind of chicken and egg. But also, what are we doing to make sure that women are accessing opportunities in engineering? Are you going into the universities and doing programs to show that these can be wonderful and successful careers for women? Or are you going into the middle schools and showing young girls that they can have a career in engineering? And why is all your support staff women? Why are there no male admins? Like, I just don't understand some of this. So I agree, you get that initial pushback against the data and it almost feels a motive sometimes when it's like, well, yeah, but okay, and then what? Like, and now what are we saying that we're just happy for this pay gap to persist for eternity? Or are we actually going to go and look at the root causes?

Francesca Lawson 17:11

Yeah, that's it, it's like, it's got to be sort of like a holistic solution, if you will. How can we create the conditions in the workplace where, so that, you know, women can thrive? Likewise, how do we create the circumstances in the education system, which mean this sort of, I guess, the science engineering kind of pathways are more appealing to girls. And then also in the home as well, what sort of influences are going on in the home, which may be reinforced stereotypes? And likewise, when we get to like domestic labor as well, how is that being split? Because, often, if there's sort of a better gender balance, in terms of the tasks in the home, then that kind of gives a better gender balance in sort of work as well.

Erica D'Eramo 18:13

Yep. Yeah, that's one of the reasons that we saw when COVID hit, that we lost like 30 years worth of progress towards equality in the workplace in terms of gender roles, because the responsibilities within the home just became so much more onerous when there wasn't access to childcare outside the home when there wasn't access to school. We did see that still, that is falling to the women even, I think the data showed that even regardless of if the woman in the household, and this is in like a household with a heterosexual, like male, female couple, that even in where the women was making more money, they still would be the one to have to make sacrifices in terms of career during COVID to help out with home responsibilities. So yeah, in that light, I think that there's probably some limitations on what a company can do. But also, I think it doesn't let it doesn't let companies off the hook, right?

Francesca Lawson 19:27

I mean, yeah, definitely no, I think...

Erica D'Eramo 19:29

All of the above.

Francesca Lawson 19:31

Yeah, that's it. It's like it's quite a knotty issue with several different contributing factors and so I think companies need to take responsibility for their part. They can't wait for the other parts that they're not responsible for to fix it for them. They can't wait for or they shouldn't wait for, say like governments to tell them what to do. They should be taking steps to improve the lives of all marginalized people within their organization now, and so that, over time, we are making genuine steps towards parity, rather than just sort of one post a year for like, kind of celebrating and empowering women while actually, life on the ground is much more difficult.

Erica D'Eramo 20:30

Yeah. So the piece around the government involvement is an interesting one, because we, I don't think, would be able to do the same pay gap bot necessarily, if it weren't, you know, like, here in the US, we don't collect the same pay gap data that the UK does. Do you have any other history on that? I was working a UK job at the time that that happened, I just remember a lot of noise around it and companies being like this data is not gonna be representative, this is going to be really onerous. But I'm interested, like, from your perspective, how has that gone? What's the history?

Francesca Lawson 21:11

Soyeah, first year that it launched was 2017 and so this year, we're now on the fifth year of data. The purpose of it was the increased transparency will kind of be the instigator of some change. Unfortunately, I don't think that that's quite works out the case, we do have five years worth of data. While some individual companies have shown an improvement, there's also a fair few that have got worse. I think in the latest data set for the UK, 77% of companies reported that women's average earnings were less than men's. So like five years into this requirement, I would have expected it to be a lot less than three quarters of companies that have a gender pay gap. So yeah, I think that the reporting requirement is a good thing to be able to quantify the problem and be able to kind of get an idea of kind of where it lies. But I don't think that it's done enough to force companies to actually take responsibility for their paths in creating this gap. Their data gets published on the government site, but they don't have to publish any sort of action plan along with that. So they're not held accountable for, say if they said, right, well, we've got a gender pay gap of 15% so therefore, we're going to raise salaries across the board and we're going to introduce better pay parental leave policies. There's no sort of, they don't have to declare that and then follow up next year with oh, yeah, we did this and this was the effect. So I think that the limitation of the data is that it is literally just sort of that one data point, the gap between the median women's earnings and the medium men's earnings. It's a good indicator of sort of where the problems might lie. But then it's not pushing them towards actually fixing them enough.

Erica D'Eramo 23:54

Yeah, that's interesting. I mean, because a median pay gap is again, like a symptom, right?

Francesca Lawson 24:00

Yeah.

Erica D'Eramo 24:01

And the underlying root cause of that pay gap could exist in a variety of places.

Francesca Lawson 24:06

Yeah.

Erica D'Eramo 24:07

And so it's just like a little blinking light that says you need to go look here. Something isn't operating the way it should be.

Francesca Lawson 24:16

Check engine.

Erica D'Eramo 24:17

Yeah, check engine like, oh, well, this could be a big problem or it could be a little problem. Yeah, I often draw a comparison between diversity metrics or demographic metrics and the world of safety because that's kind of where I came up through. And if you see safety numbers going south, if your safety numbers don't look the way you would expect them to or want them to look, it's not like you can just snap your fingers and say like, okay, people stop slamming your hands in doors. Stop having loss of primary containment. Stop doing those things you have to go digging to find out what's happening in the system. But generally, if you see safety numbers that are off the mark, that means that there's a larger, operational issue that's underlying it. You are then wondering, well, what are we losing in terms of efficiency, right? If we're not operating with operational discipline, if we don't have the fundamentals to keep people safe, we don't have the fundamentals to operate efficiently either. I feel like my head goes to the same place when we talk about diversity metrics or pay gap metrics, that this is a blinking indicator to us that something isn't operating the way it should, that perhaps we're not accessing talent as efficiently as we could be, we're not developing talent as efficiently as we could be. We're not gaining the full perspective of some of the brightest minds in the organization and then compensating them fairly. So those are all like fundamental things that influence the performance of a business. As a leader in that organization or as an investor in that organization, I would want to see that, at least understood and then addressed. That's my...

Francesca Lawson 26:16

Yeah, yeah, it's totally, I think there's like an old saying, that springs to mind about like, an, like a happy employee being a productive employee. And so it's like, if you're not sort of nurturing your talent and trying to make their lives at your organization, as sort of valuable and as kind of smooth as possible, then, you lose people, you limit their progression and they check out, that's just what happens. I've been in that situation before, where you just start to get frustrated when you get continually kicked back at work and then you're not productive, you're not happy, you kind of drag down the morale of the entire team. So yeah, I think that it's such an obvious thing that there is a connection between efficiency, productivity, and ultimately, kind of profit and the wellbeing and safety of your employees.

Erica D'Eramo 27:30

Yeah. Yeah, I agree. I think that's wherever that underlying issue is, I remember asking, seeing some pay gap data for the organization I was working in that showed that people within the same band, there was not a differential in pay based on gender, or like a substantial differential, based on gender if you looked at it across the seniority band. I thought like, okay, that's cool. But like, I'm not an idiot. How fast does the average man take to get like, how long does it take the average man in this company to get to that seniority abandoned? How long does it take the average woman in this company to look to get to that seniority? Like, let's cut the data a different way, then. Because you still have an overall pay gap. So maybe this is about promotion, right? Maybe this is about like developing your talent and it's not about actually just giving people within the band disparate pay for the same job, but it's about like opportunity. I think it almost becomes a shell game where you can cut the data however you want to support your effort. But if the fundamental goal here is that you want an equitable workplace that's performing towards its mission, who are you serving by playing the shell game? I don't understand.

Francesca Lawson 29:02

Yeah.

Erica D'Eramo 29:02

What's the point?

Francesca Lawson 29:03

You know, it's really interesting that you've brought that up, because, so the UK Data Records the median pay gap and the mean pay gap. We use the bot to display the median pay gap and just to sort of rule out any kind of extremes skewing the data, which it could be like...

Erica D'Eramo 29:27

Like the CEO, right?

Francesca Lawson 29:28

Yeah, it could be just like one well paid female CEO makes the company look like they're doing really well as a whole, when that doesn't paint the right picture for those sort of on the other rungs. So, whenever we got a lot of questions through about like, oh why you use the median rather than the mean. And a surprising number from companies who are like, well, our mean pay gap is only 2%. So, we don't really see it as a problem. They might have a medium gap of maybe like 10, 15%, but they're choosing the lower figure on purpose to make themselves look better. In my mind, it's like, you can't just cut the data the way that you want it to escape scrutiny. A gap is a gap. It's better to just face up to it. Maybe use it as an opportunity to reflect and go like, oh, hey, yeah, we didn't realize it was quite as serious as it is. These are the action points that we're going to look into to fix it. So yeah, it's really disappointing just to see that being the defense that a lot of companies have looked to, and when we've been able to highlight their data.

Erica D'Eramo 30:51

Yeah. It is fascinating, right? I think it's actually quite psychological, where that comes from that, that immediate move to sort of defensiveness or defend the status quo or your role in it or not want to make changes, I suppose. But, I don't really know who that's serving. I mean, clearly serving the patriarchy, I guess. But, it's like using your engine light analogy, right? Like, okay, the engine lights on and the brake light is on. But we're gonna ignore the fault because we fix the engine light and it looks okay now.

Francesca Lawson 31:30

Yeah.

Erica D'Eramo 31:32

It's telling you there's something going on here that means your company isn't running the way you would want it to run. So you can go fix it or you can create excuses but, in the end, I truly believe that the companies that can successfully remove arbitrary limitations, like discrimination and bias, are going to achieve their missions. I say companies, but really just entities, any organization that can remove that, those biases in the system, whether they're cognitive biases or biases in how those systems work, if they can remove those so that they can better accomplish their mission that just seems like a no brainer to me.

Francesca Lawson 32:25

Yeah, absolutely. That's the way to do it and in my opinion, those that aren't doing this work now, I think that they will continue to sort of lose relevance as time goes on. I think it's going to become increasingly important. What I hope that we've shown with the pay gap bot is that once this data is actually in the hands of the public, then it equips them with the tools to hold their employers to account and challenge inequality where they find it. That is something that I think any employer is going to have to be ready for, if they're going to kind of continue to be successful in the coming years.

Erica D'Eramo 33:18

Yeah, yeah, I don't see any real argument towards a lack of transparency. Right? That's a pretty hard stance to take that we don't want transparency, because we don't want people to know what they're getting into as either an investor or an employee, like a potential employee. I think there has been a big shift in the power dynamics between employees and employers, with COVID. Definitely, in the US, are you using the same thing in the UK?

Francesca Lawson 33:54

Oh, it's a bit hard to say, because I'm self employed now. And so, I'm a little bit out of the corporate leaf. But, I went self employed because of the pandemic, because, you know, I realized what I truly valued was kind of flexible working, ability to have lots of time at home and with my partner, the dog, with friends and family, and my previous workplace wasn't really serving that. They were very much we want our employees to be coming back to the office. And...

Erica D'Eramo 34:33

Yeah.

Francesca Lawson 34:34

Because I'd been able to use the pandemic to save the money that we're spending on transport to commute to an office, then that kind of gave me a little bit of a confidence that I can take the leap into self employment. Yes, it's a risk but I survived two years of a pandemic. I'm a lot more risk averse than then so a lot less risk averse than I used to be. So I think that that was a bit of a kind of, it served as a learning curve for me to understand what I wanted and if my existing employer wasn't going to satisfy that, then there were other options. I could have a go at doing it on my own.

Erica D'Eramo 35:24

Yeah, I mean, I guess it was the same for me. So we're like two data points, but the great resignation in the US really, the conversation around it is very much similar to what you just recounted that people are realizing that there is no low risk option. Even people who are somewhat risk averse, I'm actually a quite risk averse person. So when I said, I'm going to go out on my own, people were like, oh, that's such a risky option, why would you do that? I'm like, there is no low risk option. It's all about what you're measuring is in terms of risk, right? Financially, financial stability, I might be in like increasing my risk exposure, but likelihood of living a fulfilled life where I reach my potential, I'm probably decreasing my risk exposure here. So, I think with that a lot of people went through that same realization and it's really shifted what employers need to show to potential employees. Employers are having to compete for talent, they're having to compete with other employers who are in the same space of losing people and needing to scramble and they're having to compete with the opportunity to work for yourself or work for another small entity, or a startup or something that fits your ethos more. This data, this transparency, I think, becomes even more powerful when potential applicants are looking at a company to see what am I getting myself into? Do I want to work for this company and when talent is so highly sought after right now.

Francesca Lawson 37:17

Yeah, totally. A question that I tend to ask when I've been to job interviews before is like, I've looked up and looked at their data on the government side and ask them, this is the data kind of what's your kind of understanding of it and what are you doing to fix it? The what are you doing to fix it answer tells you loads and loads and loads about the company that you're getting into, it tells you about their culture, because if it is met with quite a defensive reaction or like they reel out the, oh, it's because we have more men in leadership positions, and...

Erica D'Eramo 37:59

That one. Okay, why?

Francesca Lawson 38:04

Yeah, then you know, that like, okay, this potentially isn't going to be, this potentially isn't a company where I'm going to be able to realize my potential and I'm going to be supported in my progression. So yeah, I think it's a really important kind of question to ask and totally understand that potentially, there will be people that don't have the luxury of choice of being able to sort of step away from a potential employer and job application because of that, but, at least asking the question in the first place, it shows the employer that it's an important issue and it's something that they need to be prepared for, they need to be aware of, because chances are, it's going to come up again.

Erica D'Eramo 38:53

Yeah. Yeah and for those of us that can ask the question and do have the luxury, I feel like it's even more important that we use that privilege to do it, because if this is a case where a rising tide will lift all boats. Especially when it comes to more competitive wages, a fuller package, fuller benefits package, even if there are pay gap issues, like what are they doing on the other side of things? I mean in the UK you won't have health care as being as large of a part of a package, in the US like that's a really important part. Leave childcare on site, like all of these things that make that up that speak to where the intentions of the company are and how holistic of a picture they're seeing when they look at this. So yeah, thank you so much for lending your insight here. Is there anything that we didn't talk about today that you think is worth highlighting for our listeners?

Francesca Lawson 40:00

I think one thing that I'm just gonna add is that the data that we have on the gender pay gap in the UK is still really quite limited. We currently only cover gender. As we kind of touched on in our conversation today, there are so many other different inequalities that intersect.

Erica D'Eramo 40:22

Yeah.

Francesca Lawson 40:23

Withi society and within work. So, yeah, I think that there's a little bit of a caveat is like we still don't have a true picture of, say, how people of color are affected by pay gaps at UK companies. That's something that I really, really want to be able to fix. I really want the government and the UK to extend to cover things like ethnicity as well. So when we have events like Black History Month and we'll have the same thing, we'll have companies will put some symbols in their logos, they'll maybe put out a couple of posts about like inspirational black people from history and it's all looking backwards. We need to start looking forwards rather than just sort of looking at how far, we've come far. Let's not undo that. We can sort of acknowledge that. But we still got further to go and any sort of awareness event and to do with social issues, it should be a chance to reflect on why we still have issues with inequality and what we're doing to fix it.

Erica D'Eramo 41:40

Yeah. Yeah, it's an excellent reminder, every time we do see pay gap numbers in the US, it's almost always more indicative of what white women experience here. As we start to look at ethnicity and race, it becomes a much starker issue and that inequality and intersectionality becomes really important part of the conversation. So yeah, I think that data is really important. I hope we start to get more transparency in the United States, because I feel like the conversation that it has at least started in the UK has been a valuable one. I would love to see something similar here. So yes, improvements all across the board, that we can continue to work towards and strive for. Thank you so much, not just for coming to talk to us today. But thank you so much for the ingenuity and putting in the effort and the hours that I'm sure it took to get that started and prompting a lot of really good conversations on International Women's Day for me and for a lot of folks I talk to.

Francesca Lawson 42:50

Yes, thank you so much for having me and for all your support of what we've been doing. Still absolutely amazes me that we've enabled some of these conversations to happen. So, yeah, really appreciate the support.

Erica D'Eramo 43:04

Yeah. Awesome. So if folks are interested in engaging with you for freelance work, is there any site that they should look to? Or?

Francesca Lawson 43:16

Yes, so when, for kind of any copywriting or social media projects, and my website is francescalawson.com. I'm on Twitter @franwritescopy and yeah, happy to have any conversations about my work or the bot or anything.

Erica D'Eramo 43:37

Cool, awesome. Well, yeah, hopefully, we can work together in the future as well. This has been great to have you on. For the website, we'll include that in the show notes and the transcript as well. And for the Two Piers consulting, as always, you can find us at twopiersconsulting.com. We are on all the social media platforms. So LinkedIn, I shouldn't say all of them. But we're on LinkedIn, Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram at Two Piers Consult and you can find us there or on our website. So, thanks again for joining us for this episode. It was a great one. We really appreciate our guests coming on and sharing your knowledge and we'll see you next episode.

Selecting the Right Coach

In our first episode of Season 3, we're joined by fellow Two Piers coach Dr. Anthony Luevanos. In this episode, we explore how to go about selecting a coach - what to look for, what matters, and what might matter less than you'd think! We answer some of the common questions we encounter and share our own insights and lived experiences. This is also a great opportunity to get to know Anthony a bit better and understand his coaching style and who he works with as clients.

Transcription Below:

Erica D'Eramo 0:05

Hello and welcome to the Two Piers podcast, season three. We'll be kicking off this season today with an exploration of what to look for in a coach. So we get this question a lot and figured it was worth a discussion. In order to help kind of explore this, we have a special guest joining us today. So, fellow coach Anthony Luévanos who also coaches with Two Piers Consulting.

Welcome, Anthony.

Anthony Luévanos 0:45

Thank you. I appreciate it. It's good to be here. So glad I get to join you on the season three podcast this so much fun.

Erica D'Eramo 0:55

Yeah, I always love having good guests on it really makes podcasting a whole lot of fun. So, Anthony and I have kind of talked about this in the past about what we like in a coach, what we see as valuable in a coach, but with the amount of times that we've fielded this question, we thought, you know, why not have a discussion? He and I might have kind of different points of view on this. So yeah, Anthony, what are your thoughts just to kind of kick off?

Anthony Luévanos 1:28

Sure. Well, I think one of the very first things that you always think about is whether or not to do the research, or whether or not to do, just get one under your belt. So, there are definitely those two different ways and maybe even more, but you could do the all the research you want on a particular coach and then get to that coaching experience, and then realize, oh gosh, this isn't working, or never have done the research, get one under your belt and realize that this is the one you just don't want to stick with the rest of your life. So there's nothing like getting that experience in there firsthand to establish that coaching relationship. But also, you could do a hybrid and do a little bit of research and get one under your belt, and then move on from there.

Erica D'Eramo 2:25

Yeah, I think a lot of coaches offer kind of either a free consultation or get to know me session in advance. So that would definitely be something that I would recommend taking them up on that offer. I know at Two Piers, we offer a free 45 minute consultation first. That really is for people to get a feel for our vibe, our style for us to explain what they should expect out of coaching and how we coach and for them to make a decision at that point, if it sounds like a match or if it doesn't sound like a match. That happens on both sides too. So, I certainly want a client to use that time to decide if they feel like I'm a good match for them as a coach. And similarly, if I sense that, you know, I'm not the right coach for that client, I'll let them know. It might be, you know, that actually, Anthony might be a better match for them as a coach based on style or background. So...

Anthony Luévanos 3:30

And you know, sometimes you just run into these coaches that are just amazing. I mean, they can switch from coaching style to coaching style and they are great adapters at whatever you throw at them. So, that's why I say you can do the research or all the research you want, but getting that first under your belt and getting familiar with the coaching process and the experience is, I think, essential for all clients. You may run into that coach in that rare occasion that can adapt to you and adapt to what you need, and really have a great positive experience and get some really great stuff. So don't sell a coat short if you've done all your research and you're thinking well, this particular coach may not really fit my style, who I am, my personality but I would say cut the coach a little bit of slack, experience the coaching firsthand and see how it goes. Sometimes there's the off chance that you can go on a blog or read a profile on one of these coaching certification agencies or associations and kind of get a little bit of background. But that experience really doesn't do justice to what that coach can bring. Let's be honest, all coaches on their profiles, depending on how often they check those profiles and then how often they update their description online. Coaches change over time and some coaches, they constantly are in that space of learning and evolving as coaches. So just remember that when you're shopping around for a coach.

Erica D'Eramo 5:45

Yeah, I completely agree, I think there's no, there's no guarantee from doing any of the background research that it's going to be a match as far as style goes. Just like for those of us that have experienced the online dating world, you could find a perfect profile that looks like it's going to be an exact match. But, there's something about chemistry that really makes a big difference. I don't think I know of too many coach, I don't think I know of any coaches that don't have something in place to kind of accommodate for a mismatch in chemistry. So, I would certainly recommend if you don't get a complimentary session or kind of a get to know you session, if you're going straight into a paid coaching engagement, make sure that the coaching agreement has something in there to accommodate for if it's not a match. If you get through that first session, do they have a refund policy? Will they allow you to cancel the engagement. You don't need to have something go wrong in a coaching session for it to just not feel like a match, because it's very, it's very unique and very personal. So yeah, I agree, getting one under your belt is kind of critical to making sure that it's the right coach for you.

Anthony Luévanos 7:16

Oh, for sure.

Erica D'Eramo 7:17

What are some other...Yeah, sorry, go ahead.

Anthony Luévanos 7:19

No, I was just thinking, you know, you don't want to get into a coyote ugly situation and you're just trying to chew your arm out of that bear trap, you're like out of the bear trap, like, oh, my gosh, I just committed six sessions or bought six sessions with this person. So yeah, that's a good point, Erica. But yeah, like you were asking some other aspects is, you know, what do you want to get out of the coaching experience? Yeah, what do you envision for your experience? Some of the things that you can think about, or do you want to set goals for yourself? Are you looking for a partner in a visioning process? Do you want to challenge yourself in some aspect of life? Are you trying to solve a problem, think through a situation? Even as basic as overcoming intergroup conflict and trying to get some ideas and having that coach just help you dig deeper, to get just a different perspective on life experiences and how to think through these things. So, those are those are important points when you start considering what coach or a type of coach you want to work with so that you can have an opportunity really to move throughout these different situations. I mentioned before, a coach can really, great coaches can really adapt to different scenarios and they can really help you move through these spaces. So often, you're in a situation and there are lots of coaches and some coaches specialize with particular clients that have a particular outcome, or they're thinking about something that they want to get done through the coaching experience. So just remember that when you're reading a profile and when you're interacting with somebody, make sure that that is a good fit for the expected outcomes that you have.

Erica D'Eramo 9:36

Yeah, yeah, I think that, especially as coaching is becoming more well understood and people are understanding that, you know, coaches partner with their clients, we're seeing a bit less of this, but oftentimes, there's just a really basic misunderstanding of what coaching provides and people are expecting that they'll meet a coach and get a lot of advice. Sometimes that's what they want and sometimes we know advice can not be as helpful as we expect it to be. So that's another thing to get clear with your coach on at the beginning, what is it that you're looking for? Because I know that if I made a client or potential client who says like, I just want you to give me career advice, I'll usually take that opportunity to take a pause and understand what are you hoping to seek by getting my advice? Because in a coaching context, we generally don't give advice, right? That's one of the things that people are often surprised about that we tend to avoid giving advice because we deeply believe that our clients know best, their own situation and know best what is right for the and so we help them uncover that. But being clear about what your outcomes are and what your goals are, will be really helpful in that coach understanding A if they're a right fit for you, and B, what that engagement might look like, what the arc of the engagement might look like and how they can be helping you to measure milestones, measure progress against that. So yeah, those are definitely important as you're starting on your coach discovery adventure.

Anthony Luévanos 11:27

For sure and I keep thinking about this, there's an image in my head that I keep going back to every time I have a coaching session and that image is the difference between someone with a flash, between following someone with the flashlight, the coach, being the one with the flashlight, and kind of leading and lighting the way versus the coach being behind the client and kind of lighting the way for the client wherever the client wants to go.

Erica D'Eramo 12:00

Yeah.

Anthony Luévanos 12:00

So, you know, it's a subtle difference but it's very important in terms of how you treat the how you treat the client or coachee, how you treat them and how the experience for the client goes. Because as a coach, you always want to be that person that says, where do you want to go with this conversation? What do we want? What do you want to accomplish at the end of this, so that the client can have some autonomy on or over where they'd like to take the conversation and how to move through X, Y, and Z?

Erica D'Eramo 12:43

Yeah, yeah. I mean, that kind of brings us on to topics of like, style and structure, actually. So, we've touched on style a little bit in chemistry, but I think coaching style to me is a really, maybe one of the most important factors for me when I'm seeking coaches, because, believe it or not, like most coaches have a coach, I think it's really good as a coach for me to also have a coach because I get to sit in the client's seat quite a bit, it keeps my skills honed, it keeps me empathetic towards my clients. So yeah, what I look for in a coach is really style above all else. That blends a bit into structure, how do they like to structure things, but I think what works for me won't necessarily work for other people and vice versa. So there's no right or wrong style, necessarily. I guess there are some styles that don't really adhere to what the ICF would consider coaching. But it's not a bad thing if you meet a coach and their style doesn't match yours, their style will match someone else's needs. So, just to be real with that, because I think so often in this world, we're taught to adapt to the hierarchy, adapt to the people that we're working with. In this case, I don't know that that's quite as important. It's important for the coach to be able to adapt, but for the client to be able to adapt to a coach's style is less important, actually, I think finding a style that works naturally is the most important. There's a lot of styles out there and some of the coaching databases like ICF will often ask how do you describe your style as a coach? And if they're looking to match people, they'll say, what style of coaching do you prefer? So what do we mean by style, I guess. So, Anthony, what do you think of when I talk about coaching style?

Anthony Luévanos 15:05

Well, I mean, honestly, just think of your attitude and your approach, kind of meeting the client where they are and just kind of getting a general feeling for how hard to press in, when to pull back, going at the pace of the client. That's important whenever you're thinking about, okay, well, this client seems the need to be challenged, they need a more direct approach. When you're coaching it does seem that coaches often find themselves moving from one place to another, depending on the particular topic or maybe even the general clients disposition. And so, attitude is really important when you're coaching a client. So when you're selecting a coach, understanding, you kind of have at the outset to have an understanding of what that coaches style is, whether they're more direct and firm or just non direct and gentle, unstructured versus structured. So oftentimes, we always hear coaches say that they have just a solid set of questions and those are the questions that they ask. I mean, that works, for some situations, but an unstructured approach is just as effective with clients.

For me, yeah, I would definitely advise clients or potential clients to look for those little things in terms of style. Because depending on what you need, whether you need some motivation or you need some inspiration, or you need someone that just practical, you need someone to guide you through that again, that process of thinking through a more practical situation, then, yeah, definitely. I would say, look at that coaches client comments, perhaps the coach has some quotes that clients have given them to kind of get a sense of what that coach is like. While one client may say one thing about this particular coach's style, another client might experience the same coach in a different way. And again, that will definitely show you, give you a deeper understanding of how that coach can adapt to different clients.

Erica D'Eramo 17:57

I think that's one of the other reasons it's important to like you said, get one under your belt, because while you might meet a coach, and like getting to know you meeting, and they might say that they have a quite gentle style, you'll really just be able to tell in the session itself. We're all a bit subjective about our styles. So even for me, understanding my style sometimes comes through seeing client testimonials, where they'll say things like, very supportive or created a very open safe space for me. And I think like, oh, that's great. Okay. I'm glad that that's how my style is coming. But it's easier to see it from the outside than the inside, necessarily. But yeah, I think, you mentioned supportive versus challenging, some clients really like to be challenged. They like that tension that directness, and other clients, especially if they're getting a lot of that challenge from their current work environment, they need something a bit warmer and more supportive and understanding like where you're at right now, how you like to be challenged, how you like to be held accountable. Whether you want your coach to do more of the same of what you're used to or whether you want them to provide like a breath of fresh air and maybe a different style than what you're used to encountering at work or in your life, understanding that can be really, really helpful.

You mentioned structured versus unstructured and I think that there will usually be some level of cadence, some level of arc to the conversation in a client session or in a coaching session, but how structured that is and how much it varies from one session to another is quite dependent on the coach I think. So, for clients who really want to, they want to just land in the day and talk about whatever is top of mind that day and just kind of fly by the seat of our pants like stream of consciousness. I'm cool with that, if that's what they need in the moment, and if that's what works for them. But I know some coaches will really work to make sure that they stick to a structure. So if you're someone who likes that, who likes to structure who needs that, it's to kind of be brought back to home base and stick to it. Knowing that is really good because if you're not like that and you want to just sort of do stream of consciousness and the coach is bringing you back consistently, that kind of friction can really be challenging in a coach client relationship, I think.

Anthony Luévanos 20:52

Oh, gosh, yeah. I mean, I enjoy structure just as much as you know, I guess the next person. But I also like where more of the Tai Chi of coaching experience, you know, you go with the flow, and you do again, you reach that arc, and you come to a conclusion eventually. But it's important to know, again, I go back to what I said before, what are your expected outcomes? What do you want out of this coaching experience and that in hand, or that in mind, shop for a coach, if you want to do the research shop for a coach, but, definitely just get one on your belt. And I'm telling you, it's better if you don't overthink it and just get one in, because then you'll know, okay, well, that didn't go so great or maybe I just, I wasn't sure really what I wanted to get out of this experience, but at least you got one or you know what to expect in that coaching space. So, just get one under your belt, that's all I have to say.

Erica D'Eramo 22:09

Yeah, and I don't think you need many coaching sessions to understand if the coach is the right coach. You'll know the first coaching session, whether you have chemistry and whether their level of structure works for you. So you know, it really is like one session, you'll have a good feeling of whether it's a match. I do think over time I've probably moved towards more structure with my clients because I find that it's tended to lead to better outcomes for them. But it really is dependent on the goal. So kind of to circle back to what you said about what do you want to get out of the coaching, if my client really just needs a space to unpack, to understand their own thought process, to feel heard, to verbalize things that they hadn't verbalized before, that might look less structured. If they want to come out of the session with a prioritized list of five things to do, then that session might have more structure and we'll have a halfway checkpoint and we'll revisit, are we still on track? I do that in all my sessions anyways, but, I think that the type of goal will lend itself to more or less structure. So yeah, so probably finding a coach that can be flexible within that is is going to be important.

Anthony Luévanos 23:49

I wanted to ask you how important is background?

Erica D'Eramo 23:55

Well, I would say that background, like a coaches background as in what their career path was, or them having shared lived experiences with us, it certainly plays a role in that. I think it can allow us to become comfortable more quickly, it can help to increase psychological safety if we feel like that person has a similar journey or similar challenges to what we've experienced. I would say that it can be a bit of a red herring sometimes as well. So if we feel like we need a coach who has lived that same experience to us, that could really narrow our field quite a bit, especially if they're very unique experiences. Like me, for me, having worked overseas, worked on offshore facilities, if I had been looking for a coach who had had exactly that experience, I might have been looking for a long time. The reality is that while I certainly would feel like that person knew what I was talking about, if I use some of the jargon or the lingo, I have had coaches who have none of those shared experiences that have coached me extremely well. So often, we unnecessarily kind of limit that scope of potential coach, if we're looking for that. That's my thought on background.

Anthony Luévanos 25:40

Yeah, no, that's a good point, it really is a good point, because, I go at it from two different, I guess, ends and similarly to you, I mean, background matters to me, dependent upon my outcomes, my expected outcomes. If I need to think through a situation, I might lean towards someone more with some similar experiences, maybe not the same. But I don't totally kick out and someone that doesn't have the same background only because, again, it depends on what I'd like out of the coaching session. I tend to think that sometimes get taking yourself out of the element, out of that space, where, okay, this person is in the field of, you know, marketing and they have so much experience there. But I'm in science and while that may come into play at some point, I don't totally think that a coach with a different background than the client is going to get less quality from that particular coach. They may actually help that client to think through some issues in a different way.

Erica D'Eramo 27:16

Exactly. Yeah, I think the similar background piece is very much a double edged sword to me. So sure it can help to accelerate that psychological safety piece, you're using the same language, often, you're kind of used to thinking of things, you can make references, and know that that person will understand it. Yet, it can be really challenging when your coaches had, as a coach, maybe speaking as a coach, it can be really challenging when your client has had a lot of the same experiences that you've had to not get in the box with them, like we say, in coaching, right? To not try to fix the problem. There can sometimes be a higher risk of a client deferring to the coach and asking for advice. Because there is that potential differential of seniority or differential of experience in that field. So we end up kind of being pulled towards that consultant mindset instead of the coach mindset, just because it's very easy to say, well, what did you do, if that person's lived it? I find that as I'm doing coaching for longer, I'm getting more used to that, and it's okay if somebody says, well, what did you do? And I understand how to answer that question without giving them advice. But I do think that it can, yeah, I can have its upsides and its downsides. Because if you want to consultant then that person and if that person is going to act as a consultant in that moment, then it should be really clear, right? I'm taking my coach hat off, now. I'm gonna put my consultant hat on. That starts to muddy the waters a little.

Anthony Luévanos 29:11

Yeah and I want to go back to what you had said earlier. I mean, providing that safe space, sometimes this is an essential piece of how you want to experience your coaching session. There's so often times where clients can come to us with some with some traumatic experiences, and the only way that they feel safe sharing or thinking through this situation is by having someone with some similar experiences and being able to identify in a coach is professional. Erica, I mean, I know that when they would come to that place of hey, what did you do? Well, let's get what you want out of this experience. And good coaches adapt to that situation, they'll know, okay, wait, hold on, I'm not here to really provide mentoring or go into a consulting role here during this coaching session. But, sometimes you need someone that you that you feel safe with, and safe with sharing, because there's some commonalities there in terms of experiences on the job and personal experiences. I don't know, what do you think? I mean, is that a legitimate thing to think about when you're shopping around for a coach?

Erica D'Eramo 30:56

Yeah, I think. I think it's kind of like I'm an experienced client now as well, too, in a way, right? We've sat in the clients seat so much that if I encounter a coach who is like... I'm not going to ask a coach for advice, right? So in that regard, I don't end up encountering that. But I do think I've encountered coaches very early. In fact, I had kind of a negative experience when I first looked for a coach just because I couldn't find anyone that seemed to specialize in my area of what I was looking for, which was support for sort of first level leaders, for women working offshore. Again, very niche, very narrow, but I just found like an executive coach. So, I just remember, describe, and the person was a really good coach, and I enjoyed working with them. And also, when I explained kind of like, what life was like working offshore, just like normal life, that was not something they'd encountered before. And I remember them sort of saying, like, well, that just sounds like you should probably quit and find something else. And I thought, like, oh, you just don't get it. I mean, as a coach, they probably shouldn't have said that. But that part was like, right, okay, I probably need to find somebody who's at least not going to be like, whoa, that's so foreign to me that I think you should change careers. So, so yeah. That's my feelings on background, it can be helpful to have like a framework to understand that you share with your client to understand what their career looks like, and what their lived experiences are. I sometimes love getting fresh perspective from somebody who has never been there as long as it's maybe delivered in the right way.

Anthony Luévanos 33:13

Yeah, and you bring up a good point, you know, kind of our next point is experience level. How important is experience level?

Erica D'Eramo 33:22

So yeah, I think that for experience level, I've met some really just life changing coaches that are at the beginning of their coaching journey that I'm really glad to have had an opportunity to work with and be coached by. So I don't think that experience level is necessarily a must have, I think you can find a good match. Often, coaches who are at the beginning of their journey might be more accessible in terms of their availability, in terms of their fee structure, even. Oftentimes with more experience comes the ability to charge higher rates. I mean we should all be compensated for the value in the experience that we bring. So I don't have any issue with that. I think it's an art and a science. I've seen that some coaches that have more experience under their belt, while it's not a guarantee that they'll have fine tuned that in fact, sometimes they kind of fall back on like... I've met coaches who have so much experience but maybe have never gone through ICF accredited training or certification to sort of fall back on their experiences. Like, well I don't need to do any more learning, I've already done it. I have 20 years under my belt. I mean, I find that those haven't been a match for me. So that's something to keep an eye out for. But certainly, like my mentor coach has a great deal of experience and she, her coaching is an art form, like, she's an artist, and she is very inspired in what she does and inspiring and what she does. She really has it tuned in, and that she has that gut instinct at this point. So, so yeah.

Anthony Luévanos 35:25

I was just gonna mention for our viewers or listeners, ICF is the International Coaching Federation. It's a certifying body for professional coaches. So, you can have different levels of certification, ACC, PCC and MCC. But yeah, that's a really good point, more experience doesn't guarantee a great coaching session, less experience may provide you with the fresh perspective. It's sometimes, again, a good thing to get a good session in with someone that doesn't have quite as much experience, not spend a pretty penny. But yeah, be sure that you're aware of the cost involved in hiring someone that looks like they have lots of experience and will cost you a lot of money.

Erica D'Eramo 36:25

Yeah, again, I think like having a first session, you'll know. And that's why it's good to understand your coaching agreement and understand, if you are signing on with a very experienced coach who has many hours and high profile clients under their belt, but it's not a match, what does that look like in terms of being able to cancelling engagement? Or get a refund? Or what is the commitment there? So, so yeah, I'm kind of a complicated, complicated one. So, the other thing we get asked about a lot is niche. What kind of coach are you? I often get asked are you at a life coach? Are you a career coach? What kind of coach are you? So I mean, what are your thoughts on niche?

Anthony Luévanos 37:20

Me, I would say that I'm a universal guide. Yeah, that goes into anywhere from starting up a new venture in life, to learning how to deal with the situation and being flexible in that space is really important to me as a coach, but then also as someone looking for a coach, I would say, finding someone that has diverse experience, or a variety of experience, would be a great thing to consider when you're shopping around for a coach, because you just never know, again, life happens during any one of the coaches that you run into, and they may carry with them a great variety of perspective. My niche again is anywhere from executive level leaders to a parent just trying to think through a situation. I hold them both at the same level of esteem. I think maybe, I may not be thinking through this as much as I should, but I may not be a good coach for someone that is maybe a astronaut. You never know, I mean, but, depending on the topic, depending on the situation, depending on the expected outcomes. I mean, I could be, it just really depends, but, niches is kind of one of those things where, as you mentioned earlier, how important is background? While it might play some a role in the coaching session, it's not the thing that should that usually drives clients towards particular coaches, or that coaches typically think, well, I only specialize in these types of clients. A good coach is adaptable. But, some coaches take clients that have particular needs and that's okay.

Erica D'Eramo 40:13

Yeah, I think for me it's interesting, because I think there's a lot of pressure on coaches to choose a niche, and to "niche down". But that's more about having a message that is accessible and palatable to clients. In my opinion.

Anthony Luévanos 40:34

Yeah.

Erica D'Eramo 40:35

Because we don't know how, if you just say I'm a coach, okay, what kind of coach and what do you coach, right? Because we have various definitions of coaches in this world. I'm not a soccer coach, or a football coach. But I don't like differentiating between being a life coach or career coach, I mean, because I find that those two are never really separable. If somebody wants to work on their career goals with me, their life will become a part of that conversation and vice versa. So I think that the framing is often for clients, that being said, career transition coaches who specialize in a certain period of time, they might have a network that is helpful for you, they might have skills in reviewing your resume and updating it, they might have these other elements of almost consulting that they can thread into their practice. A health coach probably would also have certain elements of that, so they might have tools that they use to help their clients achieve their goals. So I can see those types of niches being important, but oftentimes, the coach will be whatever type of coach you need on that day. So even if they're a career coach, show up and you just say, my cat died today, they're not going to be like, well, let's talk about your career anyways, right? You're going to need to process what's going on in your life at that moment. So with that? Yeah. Thank you for helping to explore some of these elements of how to find, select, keep a coach. I know that it's been a journey for me to understand what my preferences are, and in what I like and value from my coaches, so I thought this would be a good one for us to talk about.

Anthony Luévanos 42:44

Yeah, yeah, really. I mean, I honestly, I just, I keep thinking, you know, being kind of the the adapter, like the coaching ninja, so to speak. I think that term is played out, but the Navy Seal of coaching, if you will. But, yeah, it's important to consider all these aspects that we just talked about today, because they do play a major part. Once you get a coach, it's a way to get to where you want to go a lot faster.

Erica D'Eramo 43:19

Yeah, I agree. I think, for me, having a coach in my life has been really important in achieving my goals. It's been transformational for me and I really want to offer that to my clients as well. I do offer that to my clients. So certainly, I look forward to working with more clients that feel like I'm a good match for them. That's always important to me that my client feels like I'm a good match for them and that I help them achieve those goals. Yeah. So for Two Piers Consulting, we appreciate you joining us for this podcast episode. If you want to learn more about our services or keep up with us on social media, you can find us at twopiersconsulting.com and you can book a get to know you session or a free consultation with either Anthony or myself if you feel like we might be a match for you for coaching. You can also follow us on the social media channels. So we're on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, and LinkedIn at Two Piers Consult. So we look forward to seeing you in our next episode. Thanks

International Menopause Awareness Day

In this episode, we're joined by Sarah Utley of Momentm, a fellow coach and DEI professional who discusses the impacts and implications of menopause from both a personal perspective, as well as a workplace and societal point of view. By 2025, projections estimate that 1 billion people will be experiencing menopause and yet understanding and awareness are still lacking. While menopause will be a part of life for nearly half the population, many employers do not take into account ways in which they can support their employees and create an inclusive environment that retains talent at the peak of their careers. We discuss this and more in our episode! To learn more about Sarah's offerings in the realm of DEI and coaching, visit her site at www.momentmpeople.com.

Transcript below:

Erica D'Eramo 0:08

Hello, and welcome to the Two Piers podcast. I'm your host, Erica D'Eramo. We are joining you with a bonus episode in between seasons two and three. So we ended last season with an episode around hybrid work and returning to the workplace with Ruth Cooper-Dickson from Champs Consulting. It's a great episode, we recommend you check it out. So this bonus episode came about because Monday, October 18th is International Menopause Awareness Day, which ties into our efforts in creating diverse, equitable and inclusive workplaces. We were discussing this topic with Sarah Utley, a fellow coach and DEI professional, who's agreed to join us from across the pond to share her personal story. She'll also give us some background about why this topic is so important, some of the societal context around it, and what companies, organizations and individuals can do to help raise their awareness around the topic of menopause. As well as, understand how they can better support those in their lives and in their workplaces when looking at this issue. About half the population will experience menopause in their life and that includes cis women, trans men and some non binary folks as well. Lastly, before we get started, you may notice the audio quality on my end isn't its usual quality. And here at Two Piers, we're striving to combat perfectionism. So, we appreciate you sticking with us through this Airpods episode.

Sarah, thank you so much for joining us. Welcome to the podcast.

Sarah Utley 1:53

Hello, Erica. Thank you so much. Really, really happy to be here and talk about something that's incredibly impactful and personal for me and important for us to start talking about more broadly within society and within organizations. So, I've spent my my career in in human resources and I'm a qualified coach, and I'm looking into pivoting my business more into coaching. I'm passionate about supporting organizations to develop a coaching culture and coaching capabilities, as well as, working with individuals to help them maximize their potential. I am one of those younger women who experienced perimenopause in my 30s, which is less common. I've had both physical and mental health impacts as a result of menopause. I'm still experiencing that, I'm 46 now. Exhaustion for me has been the main physical impact along with sometimes lack of concentration. But the main thing really, for me has been feeling mentally disconnected, and often feeling tense and anxious and nervous, for no explained reason, kind of came out of nowhere. I didn't really link the two until I went to see a specialist about erratic periods. Then she asked me generally well, how are you feeling? What else is going on in your life? I kind of vomited out this whole, "I just feel awful. I just feel tired. I'm feeling nervous and anxious. I go into meetings and I'm just not myself anymore. I feel dislocated." She said, "Well, you know, you're probably going through the menopause." I was so surprised because I was 34. I didn't think at that age that I would be experiencing perimenopause. But, the more research I've done, the more I realized that that is not as uncommon as I thought it was originally. Fluctuation in your hormones can be so disruptive to your sense of well being. You've got these hormone receptors in your brain and they start to dip and that impacts the production of all those great feel good hormones like serotonin and dopamine. That can increase the symptoms of anxiety. Then you've got that stress hormone cortisol, which is highest in the morning and that helps. Estrogen actually helps control the spike in that, so when you lose estrogen, you just get this peak of cortisol and nothing really to counteract that. So, it's been really helpful for me to understand the chemicals in your brain more, and you take for granted a lot of the things in life that you experience until you start losing something. And so, it's almost like this, my loss of estrogen, slowly throughout my life, is becoming more and more impactful. But luckily, I have a lot of support around me. I'm on HRT, which is quite controversial still. But for people experiencing menopause under 50, it can be a really good thing to be doing for a lot of health reasons. So that's straight into my story and the impact of menopause on me.

Erica D'Eramo 5:44

Yeah, thank you for sharing that personal story. And thank you for sharing it with me outside of the context of this podcast, too. I guess for the sake of our listeners, this discussion came about because you and I share that passion for coaching in the workplace, creating a coaching culture in the workplace. And also, we share the passion for creating representative workforces that are both diverse, inclusive, and equitable. So, this topic, you know, in relation to those efforts really fit in well, and I appreciate you raising it with me and giving us an opportunity on the awareness day to raise awareness about it. So, in your words, how would you describe why this topic is so important? You know, what are some of the implications of it?

Sarah Utley 6:40

Well, as I just described, estrogen plays a massive role in women's health and well being. For women, personally, estrogen contributes to calcium in bones. With the loss of estrogen, you therefore have more risk of osteoporosis and brittle bone disease. Estrogen helps maintain cholesterol, which I found really surprising. I've experienced an increase in my cholesterol despite eating healthily and being fit. That is because my estrogen is just at such a low ebb now. Therefore, the loss of estrogen impacts coronary heart disease, and makes you more at risk of that. It also keeps, estrogen helps keep your bladder healthy, which again, I didn't know about. So a lot of women can experience bladder problems when they go through the menopause, that frequent need to urinate, which you kind of think, my goodness, why is this happening to me, and then you put two and two together, and it kind of all makes sense. For industry and society, I can only talk about what's happening in the UK. But there's roughly about 72% of women who are in employment, and four and a half million are aged between 50 and 64 and that is the fastest growing economically active group. That happens to be the age group of the people that are most likely to experience menopause. Many of these women are at the height of their careers. Shockingly, one in four women report considering leaving their jobs due to the impact of menopause symptoms. You know, that's really shocking when you hear that. I think there are some statistics to suggest that in the UK, 14 million workdays are lost a year as a result of the menopause. So it has huge consequences for organizations and society: retention of talent, productivity and performance, employee well being and in the UK, you know, sick pay, as well. So huge societal, and organizational impacts and individual impacts.

Erica D'Eramo 8:58

Yeah, I think you gave me a statistic that by 2025, approximately, 1 billion people are estimated to be experiencing menopause. While a lot of the framing of this is kind of around women and women's issues, we recognize too, that this is affecting trans men. This is affecting non-binary people, it's affecting partners of people experiencing menopause. So, while it's often framed as a women's issue, it's really throughout our society and across you know, the gender spectrum. This affects humans and relationships and workplaces. I think this age bracket is really, really interesting because that is sort of where many of us are at our peak experience, our peak knowledge, our peak wisdom that we can be contributing so much to the workplace and so much sure our colleagues. One of the that things you and I discussed was how, oftentimes, when we talk about these issues, when we talk about pregnancy, any sort of reproductive health, when we talk about taking time away from the workplace, or any sort of accommodations that can help retain this talent. Sometimes we're met with the eye roll of like, uh, more concessions for women, like women takes so much effort. This is why we shouldn't have women in the workplace, this is why we should just write them off on like a multitrack. Anyone whose initial reaction is to think like, "Oh, this is so much effort," I would say that the challenges for everyone morph and change throughout their career, regardless of gender. It is a real wasted opportunity to not try to retain that peak talent. These individuals that you have invested so much in, whose challenges are just shifting and morphing, right? We have challenges early stage career, we have challenges mid stage career, and by the end when we feel like we've got it all figured out, and we're sort of coasting, well, the challenges change, right? So, that's typical. That is, again, that affects men and women. So, for people experiencing menopause, that's like a different challenge for them. It feels like there's so much opportunity there to better support people that are going through these challenges so that we can continue to have access to their brilliance, to their ideas, to the cohesiveness that they add to our teams.

Sarah Utley 11:47

I totally agree, Erica. It is so simple to just think of this as an older women problem. But it's not. There are so many young women and just think how disruptive it is, if you're in your 30s, to be experiencing something so profound on your fertility, you might not have thought about having children and going through early menopause takes away that opportunity or makes it harder. The psychological or mental impact of that must be quite profound. So, it's not just women over the age of 50, we are talking about young women. We're also talking about men who have transitioned, as you mentioned, and women who've had cancer treatments such as chemotherapy can trigger menopause through the treatment they have. Anyone living with a woman, whether that's in a lesbian or heterosexual relationship will vicariously experience the menopause almost a double whammy. So, you know, and anybody who manages women in the workplace, is going to experience menopause. So it's societal, we should all have an interest in this. I'm passionate about changing the narrative, making this more accessible, normalizing this, so that we all feel confident to talk and tell our stories. Because, I have been profoundly changed by my experience of menopause for the better. Because, I have experienced levels of anxiety. That has taught me a lot about myself and I've reached out for help and support and learned a lot about myself, that have shaped my journey now. Part of the passion for coaching is to give back. I know the power of coaching and what it can do for individuals. So, I'd like other people to experience what I've experienced too, to help them.

Erica D'Eramo 13:56

Yeah, I think a very interesting, I guess, anecdotal observation that I had was that I have heard about the increased need for awareness and discussion of menopause in the workplace and that, so far, has been from men who have a partner or a loved one who is experiencing menopause and have said to me, you know, you work in diversity, equity and inclusion. This is a topic that is grossly under covered, under represented and not discussed enough. It really affects people who are experiencing it and might be blindsided by it, like it might not coincide with our work plans with whatever plans that they had. So it's been men that have raised it to me, which just, is a little reminder that perhaps when it comes to issues that typically affect women or that disproportionately affect women, they can often have this taboo, right? Because we're discouraged from showing vulnerability or showing these weaknesses that perhaps can get used against us and we don't want to be seen as requiring more effort or more investment. So, it's fascinating to me. My hypothesis is that that is why it's been mostly men who have raised this to me, because they did not feel that same anxiety about being seen, as you know, more difficult. So yeah, I haven't had women raising this to me about, you know, in the context of work, just men. So, keep raising it to the to the folks out there who have the privilege and the space to raise awareness, even if you're not directly experiencing this or directly affected. If somehow you're in a bubble that does not interact with any women, then still raise it, right? Because it does affect society. Often your voices can be taken very seriously if you're not seen as having a vested interest. I will say that, the allies and advocates are very important. Also, those are individuals who often disproportionately sit in higher ranks of management. So we need to have men as a part of this conversation. It can't just be seen as a women's issue.

Sarah Utley 16:29

That goes for the whole spectrum of inclusiveness. Whether we're talking about gender, ethnicity, disability, neurodiversity, menopause is equally important and requires a shift in mindset, a narrative and ally ship. I don't want to exclude men from any of that conversation. You know, my husband lives with me, he experiences me and my menopause every day. Actually, his insights could be incredibly impactful for an organization looking at what they do to raise awareness, how they create that conversation, how they build programs that support women, and have men as allies for those programs. It won't work unless we're all singing off the same hymn sheet, unless we fundamentally believe in that inclusive culture.

Erica D'Eramo 17:39

Yeah, I totally agree. So, we discussed some of the personal elements and some of the organizational elements a little bit, we touched on that. But, what do you think are some ways are that organizations can better support their talent and continue to retain that talent when they are experiencing menopause?

Sarah Utley 18:10

I like to reframe that to what can organizations do to create that inclusive culture and where women can bring their whole selves to work. You've touched on a lot of stuff already, but, raising awareness and building engagement events around days such as World Menopause Day. Investing in employee resource groups, where women can come together in a safe, psychologically safe, space to talk about things that are important to them and raise awareness within their teams, within the broader organization about menopause, and have men and leaders sponsor and advocate for those groups. Sharing personal stories is also a great way to raise awareness. Organizations can also better support talent experiencing the challenges of menopause by training managers, so that they have the skills to foster that inclusive culture. For me, those skills are listening, that underrated skill of listening, that we all take for granted. But, not everybody is very good at listening. But giving your time to sit down and genuinely invest in listening to another person can, in itself, be of such great value. Having empathy, showing your own vulnerability as a man or a line manager, giving and receiving feedback and dealing with difficult conversations. I think those are all the ways that we can support having better quality conversations about menopause and other inclusive topics. I am enormously passionate about coaching culture and coaching capabilities and what that can bring to an inclusive environment as well. Some organizations are writing specific menopause policies, others are ensuring that their flexible working policies are inclusive to enable women experiencing menopause to be able to take time off at short notice. The online fashion store ASOS will be allowing women to work flexibly, as well as take time off at short notice while going through the menopause. It's been in the press recently and it's one of several new policies they're introducing aimed at supporting employees who are going through health related life events. There's a number of other organizations in the UK, HSBC UK, First Direct and M&S Bank, who've recently announced as first employers in the UK to be awarded an accreditation called menopause friendly accreditation. That accreditation basically recognizes inclusive employers who build awareness and understanding around menopause and take well being of their colleagues really seriously. So there's lots of stuff that organizations can be doing to create conversations around menopause.

Erica D'Eramo 21:37

Yeah, I think your comment about being an attentive listener in any position of authority or power is really tied a lot to our coaching culture that we are hoping to instill in organizations. I guess, for those who are not very familiar with coaching, or a coaching culture, that listening means not jumping to conclusions about what best serves the person you're speaking to. So really kind of just checking yourself. I could see people who are very well intentioned, sort of assuming that they know what will help individuals and jumping to those conclusions. That's kind of got like a bit of a paternalistic, kind of bent to it, right? So we just want to ask individuals, what do you need? What would help you fully show up and fully be present, what could give you that environment? Ask them because everyone is different. So while we can create these more inclusive policies, certainly like flexible working, we've seen from the pandemic that this can be more effective than what many managers or leaders had previously assumed. Again, that's kind of the paternalism coming in, but, we've seen that it can work, right? We've seen that some people need a mixture of that and so being open minded about what can work in your workplace can really help these conversations blossom. I guess I would add that as a manager, if you understand what it is that your team is delivering, what the end goal is, what the mission is, then it really helps to have that mindset as you have these conversations about any sort of accommodations or any sort of changes to policy because presenteeism is no longer as important if you understand what you're measuring. If you understand what your team is delivering and why they're there. So, it really opens up all sorts of opportunities when you just know what it is that your team needs to deliver. The rest of it is noise, right?

Sarah Utley 24:08

Totally right. I love the way you picked up on listening. I ran a leadership development program last week and I practiced Nancy Klein's Time to Think and it went down a treat. People really nervous that the whole thought of not speaking for five minutes and just listening and getting them to focus on what's happening in their head. And you don't realize when you've sat there, truly trying to listen, what's happening in your head, the cueing of questions and how judgmental we can be and how we are compelled to give advice and offer solutions. That for me has been a major mind shift through my coach training. For my entire career, I've been paid to give advice and provide solutions and coaching really offers you and invites you to step back, and truly believe that the person in front of you has the answers to their own questions, and having that mindset will be really helpful at all levels of an organization. For my managers to pause, give really good space for a woman who is possibly struggling to talk about something that can be very personal, very impactful and could be feeling really embarrassed but raising this topic. So yeah, listening skill.

Erica D'Eramo 25:42

Yeah, and we're highlighting it here in this discussion around menopause awareness a and I just keep thinking about how it really is so applicable to any marginalized community who shows up with vulnerability and communicates what it is that they need in an environment where they have perhaps been discouraged from showing vulnerability or from meeting too much or asking too much, because they always have an eye on that value proposition, right? Like, how am I being measured? And so, I guess, anything we're discussing here really is so applicable across just the spectrum of disability awareness, neurodiversity, fertility issues, gender issues, gender transition, all of these things that occur in the workplace. I guess are conversation around active listening, open mindedness, coaching culture, checking our biases, it all applies, right?

Sarah Utley 26:51

Sure does.

Erica D'Eramo 26:52

So Sarah, as a coach, how do you support clients that are facing this kind of shifting landscape of challenges in their careers and in their lives as they are perhaps approaching menopause?

Sarah Utley 27:06

You mentioned that women experience many career transitions and menopause is just one of those. Women experience early career challenges. If they have children returning from maternity leave, their first leadership role, menopause is a another career and life transition. I coach from a place of what can you do to live alongside the menopause more easily? Because it can't go away. For some women, they may not experience any menopause symptoms. For others, this could last for 20 years of your life, the most productive period of your life. And therefore, I coach from a place of what can we do to help you live alongside this more easily. And coaching is an opportunity for women to talk about the lived experiences of menopause, and work on things that are important to them in dealing with the challenges that that brings. That could be around well being and resilience, being more assertive, and being able to talk about menopause with their own manager, or even with the husband, having more self belief and confidence. That can all fluctuate a result of changing hormone levels. So it's working on what's important to them in a one to one context, or as part of group coaching, or team coaching, where you can create safe spaces for people to talk about things that are important to them, get to know each other, build that trust and increase team performance as well.

Erica D'Eramo 28:51

Yeah, I think having, well, obviously, having a coach can be so valuable. In so many different elements of life, it just seems really well suited for this as well, because of a lot of what we've already spoken about, right? That coaching is about sort of that self discovery that it has so much agency about it that the client gets to lead the way and choose the path that's right for them. So in a society and a world where we're constantly being told how to conform, how to make ourselves smaller or more flexible to conform into these workplaces or these cultures organizations. Coaching can really kind of help strip some of that back and show individuals what it is that they want. While a lot of my clients come to me initially thinking that I want to be happier in my job, we can sometimes pull away the in my job part and just focus on I want to be happier and sometimes it's turns out that I want to be happier in my current job is not feasible. And we can explore what other options look like if the workplace will continue to be inflexible or toxic, or not conducive to thriving. So yeah, coaching really just goes straight to what is the end goal? What is it that you want to achieve, and if that's happiness, if that's better mental health, living alongside menopause in a way that's sustainable, I think coaching is such a great, great support mechanism for that.

Sarah Utley 30:37

I agree. For me personally, I felt very dislocated, both from my own sense of self, and at times my own mental well being and that dislocation has been very unnerving. I've lost a sense of identity. So I've worked with my own coach on who is Sarah, who is my authentic self and being really bold about this is me, this is what I'm experiencing. This is what it means to people around me and how you get the best out of me. Coach has enabled me to be braver about saying this and being proud of it. If I can help other women and organizations and people impacted by menopause more broadly, to feel the same way, then, I've done my job.

Erica D'Eramo 31:46

Yeah, I think it's a really inspiring focus area for your coaching practice. So, what resources are currently available, whether that's for companies or for individuals?

Sarah Utley 31:59

There are lots of resources, more so now than what there have been let's say decade ago, but you've got to go and find them still. I can only talk, again, about the UK. Interestingly, Parliament are debating support for people experiencing menopause next week. So I'm really keen to see what comes out of the debate in Parliament and whether they change any of the laws, Employment Law within the UK. Currently, menopause itself is not recognized in law. It's not a disability. But you know, some of the the impacts of the menopause such a stress and anxiety is covered by the Disability Discrimination Act. So I'll be very keen to see what comes out of that, because that could give a really clear steer for organizations on what they actually need to do to provide the framework and compliance in this area. Reaching out to your doctor if you are experiencing physical or mental impacts of menopause. There's lots of societies online and who signpost to support services as well. Your HR team within an organization will always be there to help and provide support, and a sound board and a lot of companies offer employee assistance programs as well. I think coaching, obviously, we've found the job impact coaching a lot. That's always available as well.

Erica D'Eramo 33:37

Yeah, all great resources. For those in the US, there's also if you go to menopause.org, that's the North American menopause society, which is focused on advocacy and awareness as well. I guess it's good to know that in the US it is not current, menopause is not currently considered under Disability Employment Law. So under the ADA in the US, it does not require, what that means is that it does not require accommodations from the workplace by law. That doesn't mean that it's not the right thing to do to provide accommodations for the benefit of your own business and organization. But yeah, it's an interesting topic. I think we discussed that, my perception on this is that the conversation is more advanced in the UK than perhaps it is in the US. So, it's great that you reached out and we can raise awareness for our audience on the podcast, which we've got audience members kind of around the world. So, just to close out would you have any... I know we tend to avoid advice right? Something that you and I probably share that we avoid advising people because we'll never know their personal circumstances, everyone is so uniquely different. We fundamentally believe that everyone has their own right answers that we try to help them find. That being said, for this audience, are there any insights or kind of general advice that you would share with people that are perhaps struggling with this change in their life right now, or even for those who have loved ones that might be struggling with this?

Sarah Utley 35:36

What I say here, you're not alone. There will be someone you know who's experiencing multiples, and be brave and seek help. I think those are the two things, talking is a great healer. Whether that's through coaching or counseling, with your friends, or your partner. Be bold, be brave, find somebody to talk to, whether that's HR at work, or some woman within your life. But you're not alone. There'll be lots of other people who are experiencing this as well.

Erica D'Eramo 36:15

And how about for in the workplace, with managers or for leaders? Do you have any kind of closing comments?

Sarah Utley 36:24

For leaders, I would say, put this on the leadership agenda and talk about it. Start talking to women about it. Start listening to women and how this affects them and start normalizing it. Conversation, it all comes down to having conversations, not being afraid to have those conversations.

Erica D'Eramo 36:51

Yeah, if we look at retention numbers and we talk about retention numbers, and companies are looking at why can't we meet X and Y metrics, and why our pulse survey results so poor. Go that next level and start asking the questions and finding out what's really going on with people. Some of this might be hidden under there and just not been discussed because of past stigma around discussing health issues or issues that create the perception of vulnerability, even if it's not really vulnerability. So yeah, I think that's great talking about it, opening up the discussion, and doing away with that stigmatization.

Sarah Utley 37:48

I've heard of employers who refuse to make changes to uniforms, so that women that come forward and say, I'm going through the menopause, this uniform doesn't allow me to breathe, and therefore when I get hot flashes it's really uncomfortable. I've heard there are some employers that hadn't been willing to change their uniforms to make accommodations for that. And yet, I take real heart that there are some other organizations such as, I believe, Marks & Spencers who have just said, you can order as many different types of uniforms to suit your needs. That's just showing an awareness that not everybody wants to wear the same clothes. People go through different stages of their life and need different things from something as simple as a uniform. That can be transformative to how a woman feels about working for that employer. It can change Net Promoter scores, simple adjustments. You don't need to wear your heart on your sleeve and go all out. Incremental, small changes based on listening to what women really want, will make all the difference to lift experiences of women and colleagues random.

Erica D'Eramo 39:11

Yeah, I agree. And again, while this conversation is centered women, we also want to be inclusive to have what we mentioned trans men, non binary individuals, this affects a variety of different people. But we can say that more than 50% of the population, slightly more than 50% of the population, will at some point in some way, likely experience menopause. So, that is a massive number of people. With that, I just want to thank you and ask how people can get in touch with you if they wanted to work with you or gain your insights either through consulting for organizations or coaching?

Sarah Utley 40:07

I run a business called Momentum People. You can get in touch with me through my website or my email address, which I will leave with you, Erica. I would really welcome people reaching out to find out more about the menopause and how I can help them on their journey to live along-side menopause.

Erica D'Eramo 40:30

Great, thank you so much, Sarah. So we'll have Sarah's contact info in the podcast notes. We would invite you to follow us on our social media platforms to kind of learn more about these topics, stay engaged in the conversation. Two Piers is on Instagram, Twitter, Facebook and LinkedIn. You can always visit our website if you want to reach out and that's www.twopiersconsulting.com. We look forward to seeing you at our next podcast episode which will likely be in season three in 2022. Thanks, bye.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

Hybrid Working and A Return To The Office

Photo courtesy of picnoi.

This week we are joined by Ruth Cooper-Dickson, positive psychology practitioner, trauma-informed coach and Managing Director and founder of Champs: a mental well-being consultancy. Ruth helps us explore the current state of transition facing many organizations as we see an increase in office-based work. We discuss the challenges facing both companies and individuals as they navigate this new territory and one thing can be certain: things will never return to how they used to be. Ruth brings her wealth of knowledge about positive psychology as she discusses the implications of the current transition on mental health. Whether you're a leader in an organization or an individual contributor, we've got some gems for you in this episode.

Transcript below:

Erica D'Eramo 0:12

Hello, and welcome to the Two Piers podcast season two. Today we have Ruth Cooper Dickson joining us from the UK and she is joining us to talk about the transition from working from home back into the office and what that might look like. So Ruth is a positive psychology practitioner. She is a trauma informed coach. She's also the managing director and founder of Champs which is a mental wellbeing consultancy. And we are really lucky to have her joining us today.

Erica D'Eramo 1:00

So, Ruth, welcome.

Ruth Cooper Dickson 1:02

Hello, thank you for having me, I'm excited to be here and chat to you about this.

Erica D'Eramo 1:07

Yeah, I mean, you're kind of this is absolutely your wheelhouse. And when we thought of tackling this topic, you were sort of the ideal person. So I'm really glad that you had space to join us today. So maybe it would be helpful for our listeners to hear a little bit more about you and what your your kind of practices and you're offering and, and why this is a topic of interest to you.

Ruth Cooper Dickson 1:32

Hmm, absolutely. Well, I'm the managing director, as you said and founder of Champs and we are going into our sixth year this year, this business and back when I started Champs, it was through my lived experience of mental ill health as a senior leader in an organization. As you know, how we first met many years ago, I was in a leadership role actually in in an inclusion consultancy, so that was always part of the space I'd worked in, I'd worked in the corporate sector for several decades. And my lived experience of very real burnout and breakdown following a divorce, which I now know is a traumatic experience. But at the time, it was like don't worry, I've got this, it's fine. And sort of six years ago, in the UK particularly, talking about mental ill health at work was a real taboo, it was seen as that invisible disability. And people just didn't really engage with it. So I was banging my drum talking about mental ill health at work and not many people really wanting to listen and then the dial started to shift we saw more acceptance. Very big corporates getting on the front foot with their understanding, leadership understanding that actually well being as a key business driver really sets precedent for future success and growth and performance. And we see so many research that is that happy, healthy individuals, employees are much more productive and shut... Yeah, for Champs just grew from there purely because the business started to evolve. And I myself you mentioned I'm a positive psychology practitioner. So I undertook my MSC and applied positive psychology and coaching psychology at the University of East London. And I did that full time whilst whilst building Champs. And for me, it was really twofold to undertake that qualification, one to have the academic underpinning to what what we do as a business, which is so important. And we've always been evidence based. We've always been driven by science and research. And it's not kind of that ivory towers thinking or just something we just make up. But also the fact that it was applied, it was very practical, which is an approach I've always had right back from being a project manager when I worked in engineering. So there's a real kind of flow there around why that was important to me Champs. And my colleague, Tara Kent, who's the CEO of Champs came from an organizational change leadership background. So we created something I think which is very powerful because it's positive psychology, it's well being. Myself and Tara plus our facilitators, many of them are Mental Health First Aid practitioners or instructors. So we have a real mental health ethos to what we do. And where we really kind of found ourselves in the thick of it was at the beginning of 2020, obviously with the pandemic. And it was a really interesting time for us as a business because we were actually delivering Mental Health First Aid training for a client who's based within a hospital setting. And that was right at the beginning of March. And I did the first of what should have been a series of sessions. And it was all very kind of odd. As you know, it was very kind of weird times, just at the real start here in the UK of COVID-19. And all those contracts were suddenly pulled because we couldn't do in person training. And obviously, the client was focused on what was happening internally within the hospital to support the running of the hospital. And it was all thrown up in the air. And as a small business, my first thought was let's batten down the hatches. Because I guess this is twofold, right? There's me as a business owner, and also me as the role that we do to support organizations with their well being strategy with their kind of more strategic thinking their workshops, their training, the whole package we're holistic. And it was like right batten down the hatches really look at kind of how we can mitigate any hard sort of change to Champs in terms of people losing jobs, or you know, just really figuring out what that would look like in a very quick kind of, let's evolve the business very quickly. And then we just brought everything online. And I'm really fortunate that the majority of the team really are great at being online trainers and facilitators, and they took that in their stride. Organizations, were really interested in either one group of people who were already with us who'd been on board with champs for a couple years or right since the start of my journey. Setting up champs, were immediately emailing calling what can we do, or we've already got this training booked. But obviously, we need to shift the focus, you know, focusing on keeping people well, and how they're going to settle in at home working, checking in on each other in the early days. How do you use technology to to do the self care check ins, all of that good stuff. So that was great to see. Plus, it also brought a whole load of new clients who were always had well being or mental or mental health at work on their agenda. But it wasn't a priority. It was all this is a nice thing to have. But it's not top of the leadership agenda. And suddenly it was, which was great. So it gave them that push that incentive if you like, which often we see with a trauma, if something happens in the market, the global market that pushes an agenda up to the top of the list, right, it's sometimes it takes that push to do that. So it did which was also good to see. And then some new clients who'd never even thought about well being or thought about what it meant to be well at work, having now lost our employees very quickly from people going from being in the office, to all of a sudden working at home, especially organizations that had no flexible work policies really or didn't encourage working from home. So that was the last year for us. And we really, as a business got burnt out, we were exhausted ourselves. I mean, I just saw something on an article earlier on about physician heal thyself. And, you know, we were just on our knees pretty much by Christmas of 2020. And what we came back to, was here in the UK organisations really struggling in like what we had as lockdown three that January to March months, because of winter and the pandemic and just lockdown. And it was very different to lockdowns in the summer, we had a beautiful UK summer, sort of came very early in March, April, almost coinciding with with a pandemic. And suddenly people were at home all the time. And it just felt fatigued and exhausted, as you know. So it's been, it's been a real, it's been a real journey in the last year of understanding mental health and well being at work, but in a very much more complex and nuanced way that it was sort of pre pre COVID times, I think. So I think it's been an interesting one for organizations who've probably never had this on their radar to even start thinking about. That was a very long winded answer to what your question was, but hopefully that's given your listeners a little sense about how we are what we do and kind of like really I think like lots of people, even the business we're in, but as a small business, like really had to quickly adapt and evolve and to keep to keep our doors open as well. And also to make sure my team is supported and well, to do all the support they're doing like the holding the space for others, which has been it's been a hard it's been a hard journey to navigate as a leader myself, I think.

Erica D'Eramo 9:45

Yeah, because as the leader, you're playing these multiple roles of facilitation, creating the communication pathways, supporting everyone making sure they have the resources they need, and that looks totally different when you're doing it remotely versus in person. Different tools, different interfaces. Yeah. I think that we're at this very intriguing point right now where as different countries are kind of coming out of the lockdowns and companies are looking at returning to work in different ways. It's this uncharted territory that the pandemic showed us that working from home was possible that there were, it was much more complex than people had previously understood. There were the people who said, like, oh, no one will be productive from home, people will just like watch TV all day, working from home is a privilege. And then they realized, oh, when people are working from home, actually, we need to be worried about the reverse, because nobody has boundaries, and we're seeing burnout. And we're seeing like, the kind of the mixing of home and, and work that means that no one ever gets relief. And so it really turned that concept on its head. And now that there is an ability to go back to an office setting, how companies navigate that is sort of a big topic of debate. And there's we're seeing a lot of a lot of decisions being made a lot of pushback one way or the other. And so this was a topic that has been coming up amongst my network and my clients, who are both leaders and kind of individual contributors. The leaders trying to navigate how do we keep the business running, you know, maybe we weren't as efficient in working from home as we could have been in the office. So we want to get back to that right away or from a from like, an individual contributor perspective, people who suddenly have to rearrange, you know, childcare responsibilities that they've had for a year now that don't suddenly go away, because they have to be in the office all of a sudden, and there's a lot of anxiety, there's a lot of anxiety on both sides of it. There's a lot of anxiety from the leadership, and there's a lot of anxiety from the individual contributors. So that sense of anxiety, you know, people sort of asking me, like, I don't know what's gonna happen, and, and how do I, how do I plan for this? It seemed like a good topic for us to discuss. So I was thinking today, we could talk about, you know, both from an organizational standpoint, what is best practice look like? What are some of the things to consider when looking at a return to work or once you're able to return to work? Do you return to an office like, what what does that look like? And then, separately, maybe looking from an individual perspective, for those of our listeners that will be subject to this kind of change? What are your thoughts on...

Ruth Cooper Dickson 13:06

I'm smiling, because it's like, that's a huge topic like it's huge, right? Let's see if we can do it justice in this short space of time.

Erica D'Eramo 13:14

We probably can't, we probably can't. I mean, we could write, I'm sure people are literally right now writing theses on these topics, right? Like...

Ruth Cooper Dickson 13:22

Yeah, I know, people who've graduated from the same program as me because I do academic research, as you know, and I'm involved in several papers at the moment and not to do one was actually from my own research taken a coaching program from last year happens to be last year. But there's I know lots of people who did their dissertation thesis off of their MSC on COVID times. So you know, living, working all the complexities around well being, positive psychology.

Erica D'Eramo 13:55

Yeah.

Ruth Cooper Dickson 13:56

Makes it interesting.

Erica D'Eramo 13:58

So I mean, I guess this would be like a little whet the palate of people who want to learn more. So I guess, what are you what are you seeing right now in your networks and kind of your space?

Ruth Cooper Dickson 14:12

It's been really interesting because I've had this conversation with a couple of my leadership team, people that that work in Champs and peers who have similar style businesses or work in a similar space, but slightly different in their offering. And the market kind of went a little bit quiet around, say for example, looking at mental health wellbeing style training workshops, about a month ago, it kind of went a little bit quiet. So we had May which is... May's Mental Health Awareness Week here in the UK, I know it's Mental Health Awareness Month in the US. So it's generally a month that's kind of given a lot of attention. But I think people had spent and the media particularly like I heard this from a PR and comms expert that the media a bit almost a bit done. In some cases where there was a lot of mental health conversation, it's almost been so much in the kind of the mainstream media as well. And I think also because of this hybrid working and understanding what's next. And actually, we saw a similar pattern here in the UK, last June, when we were waiting on the announcements from our government as to whether they would be everybody coming back into the office again, so we thought it was going to be for several months, and then everyone would be back in by summer, September latest, which obviously didn't happen. And the market went really quiet then it was almost like it was this collective breath around what's next. And it has felt a little bit like that I think in lots of respects. I also think that leadership and I mean this is my assumption that leadership and organizations have been thinking we've done so much on mental health and well being training and support the last 12, 13 months, actually, now what we want to focus on is getting people back into the office. So it's like we've done that we've done we've done that training, we've done that support, let's let's focus on leadership or kind of hybrid leadership. If you're any kind of transformational leader, authentic leader, a brilliant leader. Well being is actually at the heart of what you do anyway. Right? I mean, it kind of is pretty much part of that. Because again, going back to why I said that I started Champs and we know that all of that good stuff makes a successful organization. And mental health and well being isn't just about the check in it's more about meaningful work, it's communication, it's... you know, there's so many facets to it. It's much more than okay, we're going to deliver some Mental Health First Aid training, of course.

Erica D'Eramo 17:01

Yeah.

Ruth Cooper Dickson 17:02

So it's almost like at the moment there is this whole shift towards right, we need to focus on hybrid working. And I think leaders and organizations often because obviously leaders drive organizations and the subsequent culture that sits around that, but they're very compartmentalize. So you know, as you know...

Erica D'Eramo 17:22

Yeah, 100 percent.

Erica D'Eramo 17:22

...from your inclusion world, well, let this month we're doing race and ethnicity. This month is LGBTQI+, you know.

Erica D'Eramo 17:31

Yup.

Ruth Cooper Dickson 17:31

Next month, it's women. It's so compartmentalized.

Erica D'Eramo 17:37

You can only do one at a time.

Ruth Cooper Dickson 17:37

Yeah. We can only do one at a time.

Ruth Cooper Dickson 17:41

I just, yeah, I know. And it's so frustrating. So I do think there is this kind of, right, now we're focusing on hybrid working. And then there's a real there's a real pressure within we know, within HR teams at the moment where flexible working policies have needed to be updated, even perhaps more so from working at home. What does a return blended work, return to work look like? If we're going for hybrid working, what does this look like? What does this mean? So I guess the policies and procedures, which are often the first port of call are being reviewed and looked at and put into place, which would might include, you know, obviously, will include things like, how do we keep employees physically safe at work as well, you know, we've seen I've seen lots of LinkedIn pictures of people who've returned to their co workspaces where, you know, open plan spaces where they've got, you know, the perspex shields and everything else to get to keep people COVID safe, not mentally safe, but so there's almost like, let's push on with the policies or procedures and the practicalities of getting everybody back in, but without the bigger picture thinking like that, aside of like, what are all the other factors that are going to imp... a kind of come into play here that we need to consider? So it has been and I thought this was, you know, because as a leader, as a business owner, you start to the first, you know, the first thing you tend to do is go well, what's what's happening with us? First of all, we're like, let's do a sense check in. Is what we're offering wrong, or is it... the, you know, this isn't saying we've got no work, I'm not saying we've got no work, but it's that whole issue, the focus, there's just a sense, this intuitive sense that things have started to shift. That's what it is. And then it was me going out, say, April, April time, May, having these conversations with different people, having the conversations with the team having the conversations with the clients. And with we're running, as I said to you, before we started, I'm running a session tomorrow a webinar. We've had so many people who've signed up for this because I, oh, we were just thinking we're struggling to think about what to do or what does this mean for us? So it's so different, isn't it? Because you're right, I think when people were either working fully in the office, and then they were suddenly at home, and now there's like this gray area, because it's, it's not one or the other really.

Erica D'Eramo 20:18

Yeah.

Ruth Cooper Dickson 20:19

I've had a taste of that, or...

Erica D'Eramo 20:21

Yeah.

Ruth Cooper Dickson 20:22

It's just, it's very different.

Erica D'Eramo 20:25

Yeah, it's like the employees have seen, and the management too, some of the benefits of flexible working and working from home. And some of the dark sides of it as well, right, like we've seen that it's, it is complex, it is not better or worse, it is different. But employees that have gotten a taste of, you know, not having to do the extremely long commute, not having to put in all of this like non value added time and energy for I don't know, getting your getting your clothes dry cleaned, like all these little things that actually usually disproportionately affect women, I will say, Yes, a lot of these kind of expenses and time time inputs that have to go into preparing to go into the office. But being able to be more efficient and more flexible, and and manage your life while you're also managing your workload and that autonomy. Once people have been given a taste of that, and seeing that they can thrive in that environment, it's it's pretty tough to convince people that there's no value there, and you have to return to the way things used to be. Because it's more comfortable for leadership or, you know, I it's not really clear to me and I think one thing that's come into focus, for me has been sort of the the hierarchical view of working from home or flexible working as being a privilege that you have to earn in in certain workspaces like that kind of traditional view of you have to earn it. So if you're more senior, perhaps you get more flexible working opportunities than if you're more junior, versus, you know, if you need the flexible working, because you're balancing childcare, because you're balancing like an adult care, you have different elements that require flexible working, um, that I was hoping would sort of go by the wayside through the pandemic, but I'm starting to see that reemerge is like certain people will get to work flexibly or work from home. But it's not necessarily based on need. It's based on seniority, or I don't... like hierarchy, which kind of brings into question trust in the organization like is it that people aren't being trusted to deliver? Or?

Ruth Cooper Dickson 22:59

I think we know that organizations, in lots of cases, especially large, big corporates, especially those that been around for a long time are very hierarchical. Yeah, there's a promotion structure. There's who gets the big office, who gets the car, you know, there's some of the more senior you get, the better perks there are. If your face fits, you know, when we go back to like cliques, and who the in and out groups, who gets those unspoken privilege, as well. And it was really interesting in the pandemic, because we did in the last year, we did a session that was for graduates and apprentices who for for a firm who who started during the pandemic as their first job, you know, and I see you know, where you miss it. And you will know this from from where you've been in your career. But you know, when you're surrounded by experienced people, you can dip in and out of those conversations, you learn by osmosis, you pick stuff up, but also, there is a, we have all this tech now. And I think this was also what we've not, we've got this amazing technology we can use but I think one thing we've not learned to do yet and I did read a really good peer reviewed research piece on actual Zoom fatigue, as it's been coined, but you know, we don't use the tech in the right way. We've kind of we... we just kind of tried to replicate what we do in person, but online and it's like, well, that doesn't quite work. So there should be ways that people can learn and develop without having to be in the office physically, you know, they should still be able to have those opportunities. You know, I I've done all my coaching as you will have done online during the pandemic have run a research program online, I I coach people in different countries and different time zones. I mean, that was...

Erica D'Eramo 24:54

Yeah.

Ruth Cooper Dickson 24:54

That was also before the pandemic as well. So yeah, and I'm also coached by somebody who I don't see in person. So there's lots you can take from those experiences, you don't have to physically be together. I think that that is how we've, we kind of do that. And I, you know, that idea around you mentioned it before about performance of people who are working from home is much higher. And I think there's been a real, you know, where, where organizations have furloughed staff or people have been made redundant. I'm not gonna lie if I was in a corporate and I was seeing friends, peers, colleagues, lose their jobs, or be put on long term furlough, you know, would I be working my butt off to make sure that I wasn't at the top of that list? For sure. Like why, you know, you're there's going to be an inherent motivator there and an extrinsic motivator to just do it. Because...

Erica D'Eramo 25:53

Right.

Ruth Cooper Dickson 25:54

Yeah, you want to save your job, right.

Erica D'Eramo 25:55

Correlation, not...

Ruth Cooper Dickson 25:56

Yeah.

Erica D'Eramo 25:56

Yeah. So the working from home is like a correlation in some ways. Yeah. Yeah, it's not across the board. Right. It's like, some of those companies did have that, like, increased pressure, headcount, headcount cuts. And other companies that did not saw kind of different, I guess, different incentives act act on their companies, where you were able to see sort of a, what does it look like without that some of the companies that were thriving, although even those companies that were thriving in this new environment, they they just saw increased workload as well, right?

Ruth Cooper Dickson 26:35

Yeah, no, and that says a bit, then it's about going back to those boundaries. So you're not living at work, right? It's, it's how do you practice having that space to switch off? How do you and you have to, you have to take responsibility for that, and that even as a leader, that's something that I really had to work on last year and work on for my team, but it is really hard, like, it's hard. And we do this for a job. And I don't get it right all the time. But we found it tough. So if you're not in that space, or you're not that self aware, or your boss's checking in to see when you're online or why, you know, you finish, you can be sat at your desk, right from you get up 6:30 to nine o'clock at night, without people really checking in.

Erica D'Eramo 27:28

Yeah.

Ruth Cooper Dickson 27:29

You could be working, but are you productive all that time? Maybe you are for a period, but there's gonna be a point where that stops being productive, right?

Erica D'Eramo 27:38

Yeah, and I think everybody's brain works very differently. Like we had a podcast episode recently on ADHD and, and productivity and how, at least for me working in the office, because it was sort of like a sentence to me of like, you have to be here for eight hours I would really struggle to be particularly productive, like I really I would struggle to hit flow states in the office. And so I ended up just like taking a lot of my work home and doing it at home anyway, which meant I was putting in this like time in the office but then also just doing it at home where I could hit you know, I could reach flow because I didn't have the distractions of the office around. So in that regard, working from home was... I really thrived in it when I transitioned from the workplace to the home to home because then I didn't actually end up putting in the eight hours at the office and then going home and doing more right I got to like do my work during my work hours. But the boundaries issue has certainly... it's it's definitely been a challenge for a lot of the people in my network. There's no there's no getting in the car turn you know or getting on the the subway and going home. There's no like demarcation of this is the end of your work day.

Ruth Cooper Dickson 29:03

And you're physically leaving the building aren't you you're physically going somewhere. I think those people... I know I did it in the third lock down when it was winter because it was too dark to go out in the morning and in the early evening. So in the daytime, I would definitely make sure I took a break outside because I could be in all day. But even now I mean yesterday I work from home and I'm still working from home at the moment but I am going back into London just through personal preference to have a day in London every so often. Just because I enjoy traveling and seeing people and having something different about my week. But yeah, yesterday I didn't leave the house until I needed to leave the house at eight o'clock at night. And I was like oh my god I've only just left the house today. Because I didn't need to go outside, I didn't go out and train or do anything that I needed to do. It was my kind of rest day from training. So didn't leave the house, sat sat on the balcony but didn't didn't leave physically leave the house at all yesterday. And it's it's kind of sad, when you think like that?

Erica D'Eramo 30:07

Yeah, right. And so we don't want like, we don't want either extreme right? We don't want people... this like really rigid, rigid structure of presenteeism and all that. And we don't want isolation and people kind of burning out on their own without that balance. So I guess what are you seeing organizations doing that you would consider best practice as they kind of enter into this brave new world?

Ruth Cooper Dickson 30:37

Well, I did read the the FT article that you shared with me from last month, actually, which was really interesting to see that Dropbox have decided against using a hybrid model, which I thought was really interesting. So they're going virtual first policy, because they're worried about inclusion disparities. And...

Erica D'Eramo 30:57

Yup.

Ruth Cooper Dickson 30:58

...in regards to performance and career trajectory, which is a lot of the stuff we've spoke about, about that in group. And having, you know, cliques form. There was definitely clients who shared experiences of cliques, in the early stages of when all people could return to a cut to a more skeletal staff level. So they were encouraged if they wanted to come in, it was safe to do so. But there was those who are in the office, those who weren't in the office. So I have yet to see real beacons of best practice. I think it's too early to say that I think, where organizations are really trying to... our clients are trying to support their leaders through this process. They're aware that this is going to cause problems. So we were, you know, working with them on different kind of support mechanisms. And kind of more leadership development practices, which encompass well being at the heart of kind of thinking about how they lead in a hybrid model. But I have yet to see the effects of like, what is best practice? And I think that's going to take a little bit of time, but I think it's those who've actually said, we don't know how this is going to... so they've not made some big assumptions. They've they've not said, yes, we've got this right, because I think you probably haven't yet.

Erica D'Eramo 32:45

Right.

Ruth Cooper Dickson 32:46

And it's gonna take some time. And also those who aren't listening, I think the ones that are taking their time are also finding the space to listen to the individuals, like the individual contributors, as you said, to find out what people want so then they're doing the surveys, they're having the conversations, they're figuring out what works best. They're seeing how that's going to work, there's more support there than just you need to come back into the office now, or we're working from home. And that's it. So it's kind of... it's kind of...

Erica D'Eramo 33:21

Flexible.

Ruth Cooper Dickson 33:21

...a bit more collaborative. Yeah, there's a bit more of there's more communication. So that's kind of where it's seen as I think it'll be interesting to see how those all go well both sides will kind of work because I think if you're just saying, right, you've got to come back.... I don't know, I'm finding one particular client as well, an organization that I know of, they've you know furloughed staff out. And they've really struggled with the staff returning back into the environment, you know, having had quite significant... where we where we've seen people who've been furloughed for quite a significant period of time, because, you know, academic evidence shows good work leads to good mental health. Now, if you're not in the workforce on any level for a significant... so imagine, like everybody who's just worked from home, during the pandemic, you're still working you still have those connection, those touch points, that meaning and purpose that is driven by who you are, you know, often we ask people, what they, what they do who they are, and they talk about their job, right, first, more than often.

Erica D'Eramo 34:31

Identity.

Ruth Cooper Dickson 34:32

Yeah. So those people who've been furloughed, I mean, imagine the amount of change their brain is going to require to switch back. I mean, that's, that's quite hard. You know, it's an unscheduled sabbatical whether they've loved it or hated it, or wherever it's been. That's a big that's a huge shift. That's going to be quite huge.

Erica D'Eramo 34:54

Especially. Yeah, I guess, especially if they they did not have agency in that decision that it was sort of done to them, like the decision was made for them.

Ruth Cooper Dickson 35:09

Yeah.

Erica D'Eramo 35:09

And so that can that can really change how that experience feels. Yeah, confidence, like getting your feet back under you.

Ruth Cooper Dickson 35:21

I mean, I know when I did my first talk, so it was a live talk at a client's but there was no audience. And we did that in April. So I actually did the journey. Because had been since September, I had it, I hadn't done it, I actually did the journey, end of March time back into London, just to get a feel for it. Because I know what I'm like in terms of my anxiety disorders, just kind of, I didn't want the first time I went back into the workplace, to, to deliver something to be on show if you like or be on my stage and on my game, so I wanted to do that route.

Erica D'Eramo 36:04

A dress rehersal.

Ruth Cooper Dickson 36:05

Yeah, just like, yeah, dress rehearsal, and just go in. And, you know, had a couple of meetings, but nothing that was a big deal, and then came back and then took so much out of me. And then...

Erica D'Eramo 36:17

Yeah.

Ruth Cooper Dickson 36:18

...get it... being aware of that. And then going back in again to do the event. Kind of a bit more prepared to know what to expect, but just the energy. And then you and I've chatted about this offline about the amount of energy it takes to do stuff in person versus remotely, you know, and introvert extroverts that kind of, is a big, that's a big part for for managers to... leaders to consider, you know, what, I, there was a, there's article I posted on on LinkedIn yesterday that talked about, especially if your employees suddenly were in the office, and then they were out of the office, very quickly, they will have gone through some metamorphosis over that period of time. So even if you think they are the same person, they aren't, they will have changed on some level, most people will have changed on some level.

Erica D'Eramo 37:08

Yeah, that's fascinating, and we'll have put in these support structures, like formally or informally, that will have embedded in our lives. And in many cases, not even be aware that we've done it, right.

Ruth Cooper Dickson 37:22

Yeah.

Erica D'Eramo 37:22

...that may be serving us quite well, and we'll be a bit challenged by like a full return to work. I think some of the things that I'm seeing and hearing, that seemed like, seemed to be good practice that I'm interested to see how it how it will turn out is continuing to maintain sort of that like flat distribution of information that existed when COVID hit. So companies realized, like, we don't have this trickle down in the office anymore. So we'll have like global webcasts with our CEO, or we'll have a lot more accessibility to the top, because it's just more efficient to like, do the recording once and get it out there. And town halls became, you know, like global or regional instead of people being kind of broken up into teams. And that I think maintaining that could be really helpful in tackling some of that hierarchy and cliquishness that will come into play from a hybrid model where certain people get access to the information sooner than other people. So making sure that access to information isn't poorly, I don't know distributed, or preferentially distributed, I guess, I should say. And then there's a lot of talk about like schedules, which is interesting to me, because in the energy industry, historically, there was a lot of like what they call flex Fridays, at least in the US. And it was a big, kind of it was seen as like a really big perk in the energy industry that everybody gets to pick a flex Friday. I know when I started back in 2002 or so you got to pick which flex Friday was your flex Friday, and then you would just work additional hours throughout the week, but you got every other Friday off whichever one you wanted. And then that kind of shifted because they realized, well, the people who were in the office on the Friday where other people aren't in the office aren't really having a productive Friday. And so it kind of makes that Friday a wash. So they would they sort of shifted to everyone takes the same flex Friday off like this team is always, you know, this is your Friday off and that's your Friday working. And people grumbled about that a little bit, but at least they knew what their Friday off was going to be and they could still kind of get stuff done on that Friday. And then they move to like getting rid of flex Fridays altogether. I don't think anybody really... maybe some people still do flex Fridays, but it's pretty uncommon now. And that people really did struggle with that, because they had embedded that in their lives like that would be the day that they went and did their doctor's appointments, you know, that would be the day that you go run to the bank and like, and access these businesses, and it was seen as a big perk. So now there's a lot of talk, you know, in all industries about, okay, we'll do flex working, but it's not really gonna be flex working, it'll be like, you get to choose two days a week that you can work from home, but they have to be the same two days for the whole team. And, or, you know, or maybe it's on more of like a weekly basis, you get to, you know, the whole team has to be in the office during one week, or I think they're trying to balance the flexibility of giving people some time to work from home that they found useful with the, the downside of having too many people disparate, and never having the team come together face to face. So I think Catalyst has put out some information about, they've done some really great research in the future of work around best practice here and sort of making that wavelength a bit longer. So it's not necessarily two days a week, but it might be, you know, this one week, per quarter, we want to bring the team together for some team building for some, you know, some bonding, but giving people more flexibility in the long term. Because that can be that can be tough. Two days a week means you're sort of still, you can't like group that time together, you know? So I mean, I guess what, do you have any thoughts on the cadence of like, how a hybrid model could work? Or, you know, from, from a wellness perspective, from a mental health perspective of that, like, brain switching that has to happen?

Ruth Cooper Dickson 42:02

I think it's going to take, like we've just spoke about, some trial and error to find out...

Erica D'Eramo 42:08

Yeah.

Ruth Cooper Dickson 42:08

...if it fits and expecting that expecting that.

Erica D'Eramo 42:10

Yeah.

Ruth Cooper Dickson 42:11

I think when we pretend everything is, everything is going to be okay. And it will just slot into place. And it's not going to happen, right. I mean, there might it might do some organizations, but I, but big corporates, you know, they're gonna have to figure out like, how it's going to work and try stuff and see how it fits and, you know, stick with it for a period of time and see what kind of response they get, and then look to alter it. So this is kind of almost I don't think there's this one size fits all I, I actually really admire Dropbox was saying what they've done and say, well, we're just going to do virtual, you know, we're not going to go for this hybrid work model, you know, we're going to go for virtual, because even if, you know, you consider co workspaces or people kind of having that opportunity to get together, then you're still going to create those cliques, and you know, people that can do that or want to be able to do that, but then there's, there's gonna have to be organizations that are, you know, that they will say, people have to come into the office. So I think there's going to be more of a focus around understanding, like you said, the comms piece, making sure that is flat. And it's, it's fair that if, you know, if you're having a session, a meeting that people dial in as well like understanding, then you know how to deliver. And that is hard, because I've delivered training workshops, where I've got people in person in the room with me and people on a video camera or webcam, either in the same country or other countries. So it's hard to do that you have to be such an inclusive facilitator, and really think about your audience to make sure you're bringing people in. So you know, leaders in the teams who are in the room need to think about those people who are sat online and how they're engaging with those people. So there's gonna have to be some, there's going to have to be some kind of support and training there in place. But I also think there's got to be an understanding around, this is going to still create some anxiety for lots of people to settle into what was. You know, we've only we've, we've we've taken 12, 13, 14 months, 15 months, to get to where we are now. So it's going to probably take that amount of time, you know, we're talking weeks and months, not days and weeks to kind of get back into that sense of this is the new routine, right? So we're talking to end of 2022, not end of 2021, possibly, of alienness. Because we were always so far advanced on tech, and the ability to create virtual teams and the ability to be more collaborative with our work and to think more differently about how as as humans can inbuild self care and well being, to be more productive and to be healthier and happier and to enjoy our work, but we've just not got there yet, like we've we've kind of this has given us the opportunity it is a real opportunity it's an opportunity to shape how for leaders and organizations to shape the future of their business, going into the future, but also for individuals to really reflect and think about... And of course, I'm not saying everyone's gonna go, right, I don't want to do this anymore. But what do you want to shape your work to look like? You know, how is that important to you? What does what have you really taken from the last 13, 14 months? What do you want to see more of now? What do you want to see less of? You know, because some people will be I really want to be around people, I want to be back in the office. So if your organization goes, oh we're all virtual, then maybe that organization isn't for you anymore, likewise...

Erica D'Eramo 42:59

Yeah.

Ruth Cooper Dickson 44:18

...if you're a virtual person, you might say, I need to look for something else. Like maybe it's a different sector, maybe it's a different role...

Erica D'Eramo 46:13

Yeah.

Ruth Cooper Dickson 46:14

...maybe there's... Sorry.

Erica D'Eramo 46:16

No, go ahead.

Ruth Cooper Dickson 46:17

I was gonna say, um, what about all those people who shifted, who were furloughed, who might have been doing something completely different for the last 12, 13 months, you know, to had to survive to keep the money coming in. Maybe that's really changed their perspective of work. Like there's a real sense around, I remember doing a module in my undergrad degree back in the late '90s, called the realities of work. And I think this is what we're really starting to see, this is organizational change and development right at its finest. It's, it's going to be so interesting to see, like you said about people writing theses right now, I think it's going to be such an interesting place to look back on in 5, 10 years from now and go, wow, after the pandemic, look what happened to the world of work, look how it shifted and changed.

Erica D'Eramo 47:08

And I think that's the that is the piece around the reality that people are still coming to terms with that it has changed forever. And some companies will try to go back to the way it used to be. And some will be more successful than others, I think, and some of that will have to do with the age of their workforce, perhaps or the makeup of their workforce. But I do think that how companies proceed over the next kind of 24 months will become sort of their brand offering to their employees, right? That will be a competitive differentiator as far as acquiring talent. And, again, not good or bad. But differentiator right. So the people like me who love flexible working, love working from home love autonomy. They'll be they'll get to choose to the extent they have the ability to or have the privilege to choose, they'll choose those employers that really celebrate that way of working. And that's kind of a differentiator that's it existed before, certainly, but just not to the extent I think it will going forward. And so companies are going to have to compete for talent in a way that they haven't had to before. That's my prediction.

Ruth Cooper Dickson 48:23

Yeah, I think that's it, that is such a such an important part of well being because when we spoke to organizations before COVID, around more strategic consultancy, of understanding their well being strategy, you know, what do you have on your website around mental health and well being, you know, more broadly, instead of just a the obligatory statement, like how do you invest in your employees mental health and well being? How do you work at which, obviously, inclusion sits at the heart of that, and that was, for me was always a big thing, as you know, that well being was a wrapper that sits around who we are. So you know, how do you use that from a strategic brand perspective? And if you can confidently say, on your website with testimonials from employees on I don't know, Glassdoor and other websites where people can find out about what it's like to work for a company that people are really talking about. There's a real ethos here that this is what's believed in. It was really interesting because when you were talking, I was thinking about Champs, and we have we have a lot of we have a lot of women that work in Champs, and we have a lot of mums that work at Champs as well. And I wonder if that's partly and I'm not a mother but partly down to the culture that I've created around you know we the flexibility. So I got rid of our office space in 2019 in the heart of London, because we just really weren't utilizing it and actually we did co working and we got together as a team once a month to sit and work on a Monday all together. And we all traveled in. And that worked for us. And it's been hard not to see them. And then we have started to see a couple of them now in person. But we almost were like ahead of that, I guess, around how I wanted to the culture that I wanted to create and even in the last week. So last week here in the UK was a beautiful week, it was half term week. So some of the some of the team had got kids off and, I was off, but I was tapping in and out of work. And we had our usual team meeting, but actually, the ethos was like, it's a bit of a quiet week for clients just you don't need to take holiday, but just be around if needed. Like, it's, we've been through enough, like I recognize my team have been through enough and I'm exhausted. So they're definitely exhausted. So let's while we can take some of this time to refresh, and hopefully, you know, things, you know, things will as cyclical as they are and as things kind of start to, you know, we've got stuff in the diary. But as that builds again, and you know, just take that breathing space while we can. But you've got to do it, you've got it, you know.

Erica D'Eramo 51:14

This is where to get really deep for a moment, I really do think this is where true leadership like quality leadership becomes so valuable, because if your mission is clear, and if what your team contributes, is clear, then the physical location of where they are, may or may not matter, but you have trust, and you understand what they are actually contributing, versus what I call kind of the lazy version of leadership or the type of leadership that just doesn't have line of sight to that. The only analog that they can measure performance with is kind of bums in seats, as I call it. So like face time in front of the computer or face time through conversation, perhaps, but it's not necessarily output. So if you really know what you're contributing and what the mission is, and how well you're accomplishing the mission, then a lot of this other these other arbitrary measures sort of fall by the wayside because you don't need that's not part of your performance management. Like how present somebody is. I mean, present as in like physical presence...

Ruth Cooper Dickson 52:29

Yeah.

Erica D'Eramo 52:30

..is is not actually important.

Ruth Cooper Dickson 52:33

And also when knowing when the people are online. As a, you know, sometimes I think, oh, my goodness, I don't actually always know when people are online, I can check diaries, but it goes back to that T word, right, trust. That just knowing...

Erica D'Eramo 52:52

Yeah.

Ruth Cooper Dickson 52:53

...that you trust people to do their job. You trust the outputs that you see. I we don't work on Fridays at Champs as in the office is closed, people have a choice if they want to catch up with admin, if they want to do things they can, but no external emails go out. No internal team meetings happen unless it's mega urgent, you need a one to one with somebody but that's, I think happened once in a time, twice that I know of. So it's a day of sometimes I know some of the team like to work in the morning on a Friday just to wrap up the admin for the week. But that's it, like I don't, I like to work on a Sunday afternoon for a few hours. So I would rather do my time on a Sunday afternoon sort of four or five o'clock in the evening, just to get ready for the week, week ahead, than be online on a Friday. So if that's my choice. People are very different. And I give that give that permission to choose how you want to work. That's probably how everyone in the team is it's it's a choice, you show up because of the the mission and the values and the work that we do. And people care about the work that they do and the output that they give to our clients. And we know the client is king, but there's also boundaries around that.

Ruth Cooper Dickson 54:13

Yeah.

Ruth Cooper Dickson 54:14

You know, which is why we don't, which is why we don't generally you won't get emails ridiculously late at night, or at weekends from us on a Friday because there's boundaries around us even if somebody does want to work on a Sunday. If I do an email on a Sunday, it's send later it's not send an email on a Sunday.

Erica D'Eramo 54:31

Yeah, yeah, that's some that's some good practice right there with the setting of the expectations. That's something that I had to learn over the course of years that even verbally, like you don't have to work late, you don't have to work long hours if I am displaying other behaviors, people will mirror my, the leader's behaviors...

Ruth Cooper Dickson 54:56

It was so funny...

Ruth Cooper Dickson 54:57

...versus what they say.

Ruth Cooper Dickson 54:57

...both, there's two people in my team who I know who joined and they both fairly early on when starting emailed out on a Friday, one on a Sunday and both were oh my gosh, I'm so sorry I emailed a client I was like I don't even need to shout at you like, oh there was an email that did go out kind of my usual direct bluntness of you emailed a client on a Friday. Let's not let that happen again. And people know right, they're like, no we don't email on a Friday.

Erica D'Eramo 55:30

Yeah.

Ruth Cooper Dickson 55:30

You've got to set that you have to set it and you have to, you have to also set it so I don't have what I don't have work emails on my phone, I took them off in lockdown one never put them back on, unless I travel into London, and I might put the Outlook app onto my phone, but I don't have my work emails on my phone. So the only way I could check my emails, if I log onto my laptop. I don't use WhatsApp for work. My team contact me by Slack. If I'm on holiday, I delete slack. And they know that if they need to get hold of me by WhatsApp, somebody has to have been... someone has to have something really serious to have to warrant a WhatsApp message.

Erica D'Eramo 56:06

Yeah. I mean, so these are some of the when we talk about best practices, you know, for leaders, I think these are some of the best practices, especially when you're looking at hybrid models because setting those boundaries and being clear that it's not an it's it's not a fake boundary. It's not like, Oh, we don't work on Fridays, but then the people who really try hard they do come in and work on Fridays, you know, like, No, we do not work on Fridays. Or we, if you do it better be secret, like don't let anybody see you doing it because we don't want to we don't want to set that example.

Ruth Cooper Dickson 56:35

Yeah. And this there'll be internal, out of offices on a Friday often say things like, Hi, I'm I'm taking some downtime from the screen and phone today, if you need me, Whatsapp or Slack me. Somebody might say, you know, there's, I'm working this, I'm around this morning, or I'm not around today, I'll be online, but on Sunday, or whatever it is. So there's, there's generally a consensus that the you might be catching up on stuff, and that's okay. It'd be really rare any leader would ask for something on a new request on a Friday, there might be stuff that's already happened in the week for somebody to work on on a Friday that they might want to tie up or wrap up on a Friday morning, for example, that they do it. But it would be you know, there's it's really rare that I would email say, Kate, my admin in my team and say, Oh, can you do this on a Friday morning, because my assumption is generally she is not, my assumption is she is not working. So therefore if she's doing her own little tidy up admin, that's for her to do. It's not me adding to her workload on a Friday.

Erica D'Eramo 57:40

And I think that that is so contrary to how a lot of people have been brought up through the business world to view what quote unquote, good work ethic is, right? Like, we've taken, again, what I what I consider sort of arbitrary metrics that aren't key to delivering the mission like response that, you know, responsiveness is always one that you should be able to drop everything at any hour of the day or night and reply to your manager for even like the smallest little thing. And you can get that and build that into your organization, but at what cost? Right. And? And is that really serving your mission? If you if you're a fire department? Yes, it is serving your mission, right? Like, there are some jobs that are all about responsiveness, security is one of them, right? But...

Ruth Cooper Dickson 58:25

Yeah.

Erica D'Eramo 58:26

...in most cases, like updating the slide deck for the executive team, it just means like you either didn't do your work in advance, or it's poor planning rather than, but it's seen as, like loyalty to the company or loyalty to the to the manager. And I just think that we lose so much potential talent that way by picking these outdated measures that we measure people by that aren't true to the purpose. And that's not why you hire those people. Right? I don't want to hire people who I need to check if they're online at the right time. Like do you provide quality work and insights? If yes, then I want you on the team?

Ruth Cooper Dickson 59:06

Exactly. There is not. There is not enough. Yeah, there's nothing like that. Which is really interesting. Because when you said that about coming through the ranks, I think all the times I spent in the corporate world. Why probably I have a different approach. But maybe that is because of my lived experience. But also just the fact I wanted to create something that was very true and authentic to how I am and how the business now is. And we would be going against everything... we know it's not all rose tinted glasses. We know that even though like I said, we got burnt out at the end of last year because there was so much work and we were just kind of like supporting others, we've we always put our own needs on the back burner to some extent around, you know, processing what was going off because we were supporting others, like many other frontline workers, I guess, in that sense. So you know, we're not we're not exempt of that, but actually, where we can say that these are the practices we hold and so when things are busy, like you say, when there's when our mission is to support organizations or support individuals to help ingrain a culture of positive mental health in a pandemic, of course, we're all hands to deck because that's our job like the firefighter, right? That's our job. So they're actually how do we recoup back from that, and this year has about a softness, a compassion, an ability to really look after each other to look after ourselves to understand we're all probably chronically fatigued, to know what's happening next to think ahead of the next 12 months, rather than the next five years, like, just take a breath, reset and recalibrate before we kind of move forward.

Erica D'Eramo 1:00:50

Yeah, I do hope that some of these large organizations that are making what seem like big decisions, and some of them feel like knee jerk decisions, you know, a lot of companies are like accelerating their return to work expectations, maybe they said, end of 2021. Now, a lot of at least in the US, a lot of companies are targeting September, like Labor Day is a big day in the US for like full 100% back to the office, which is in September. And I, I do hope that companies take that with them that like compassion and softness. I'm hopeful I think the ones that will have more staying power, they'll have more success, will have to incorporate that. And that growth mindset of like, we're figuring it out. This is our hypothesis for what it's going to work. If it doesn't work, we will pivot and we'll try something else. Versus like, there is a right way, there is a wrong way, we are betting that this is the right way. And we're going to put all our chips on the table, you know, I think that there, that could be a risky, that could be a risky strategy. So. So for any individuals out there whose companies maybe aren't taking best practice into account, do you have any thoughts on how they can be kind of protecting their own mental well being as they transition and are facing, you know, anxiety, changing schedules, changing demands?

Ruth Cooper Dickson 1:02:21

Recognize that it is affecting you I think, is first and foremost, don't dismiss how you feel because how you feel is valid. No one can tell you how you feel, right? So that's first and foremost is know, that's how you feel and that's valid. Second, where you might be transitioning back into the workplace. And if you've got to, and, you know, as we talked about before, that, that's how you earn your money. And, you know, maybe there is some bigger picture stuff, which I'll mention in a minute. But, you know, think about that dress rehearsal, think about as you would do, kind of preparing yourself mentally, physically to get back into that. So it's doesn't feel so different. So if you can, for example, work from a coffee shop, and maybe not go back into work at the moment, but you're going back into work in September, maybe if you work from somewhere else. So it's a transitionary phase, you maybe go out of the house a couple of days a week and work from somewhere a little bit different, maybe even it was for a few hours, but grab a coffee and take your laptop and work if you can do that, for example, if that's a possibility. Think about if you're if you have mental ill health diagnosis already. So know how, how to support yourself, what triggers to expect. But also if you don't, and you are feeling anxious, then think about those support systems. And we touched on this before about the US particularly, you know, there's a very strong kind of link towards having therapy or seeking that therapeutic intervention, less so probably in the UK, but coaching support, any, you know, whatever your support network is, is to use that.

Erica D'Eramo 1:04:00

Yeah.

Ruth Cooper Dickson 1:04:00

Speak to your manager, if you can. I often think employees, individuals often make a lot of assumptions, especially if they're feeling unwell mentally, or they're not feeling 100% or they're anxious or unsure. A lot of that time is misguided, you know, because we don't give a leader or manager an opportunity to have that conversation. So don't take don't make a big assumptions. And don't tell the story from your own narrative, like think about potentially how you could explore having a conversation with your manager or leader. If you have to go back and you don't want to go back. And you know, there's obviously there's HR to have a conversation with but there is a bigger question here, which was alluded to before about is this the right job still for you? Is this the right sector for you? Is this the right organization for you? There's some bigger questions that are going to drop out of what you've been through. So if that's the case, what does that look like and start to explore that with a coach or a career guidance counselor or somebody you can just give you that kind of different perspective and, and kind of give you a holding space to have those kind of conversations. Because it might just be the adjust... I say it might just be, it could just be the readjustment to a new routine. And that is going to feel weird, unnatural, yucky, horrible bring up a load of stuff, which are normal rational emotions to kind of experience right going through a big change. So also give yourself patience and space to kind of, you know, maybe if this is on your mind, I'm thinking that this might not be the right role for me anymore, the right organization, the right job, you don't have to make that cutthroat decision right now. Otherwise, that said, you know, maybe give it till the beginning of the new year, and then say, you know what, I've been doing it for six months, and it still doesn't feel right. It's time that I took this leap. Set yourself a milestone for then, rather than thinking, I've got to be in it forever, right? This is it, I've got to go back and it's going to be awful. How about, let me see how I feel in one month, three months, five months, six months, and then start to think this... you know what, this still doesn't feel right, I need to kind of look at my options, or think about what this means for me. So.

Erica D'Eramo 1:06:16

Yeah. And working with a coach, like you mentioned, can really help you find ways to, to even like prototype some of your ideas. There's a book called Design Your Life and they talk a lot about that like prototyping before you make these big changes. What are ways that you can test it out? Because the grass... some, you know, sometimes the grass is greener, then we get to the other side and we're like, oh, this is also awful. All this like freedom I envisioned is actually very lonely and solitary.

Ruth Cooper Dickson 1:06:46

Well that's it right? Yeah. Definitely. My my friend Harriet Minter has written a book called Working From Home: How to Build a Career You Love. I think that's what it's called, I think that's the second part of the title, how to build a career that you love. And again, how, for those of us, the small minority who are working from home, predominantly, although we would be perhaps on client sites, in coffee shops and co workspaces before the pandemic, we were much more used to doing working from home, right. So yeah. How do you curate what like you say that prototype of what would that actually look like? Where... do I like to be around people? Would I rather be in a nice co workspace where, okay, I'm not in a office, but I have an opportunity to travel in somewhere a couple of days a week and be around people and still grab that coffee and do a little bit of a commute, maybe not the full two hours, maybe it's a 45 minute or half an hour drive or a 20 minute walk. But it's something that's not, it's very different. And again, if your organization is forward thinking and they're trialing different options, maybe if you present, if yours is flexible, and you say well, actually, there's a co workspace, which is around the corner from my house, I can travel in there in 15 minutes, I could work from there three days a week, and there's private conference rooms, I can book out for meetings and video calls. And maybe they might go for that, like, this is the thing, right? There's an opportunity for you to also... that should be exciting to curate that. So it's not all you know, it's also about taking... people forget, they can take control. And I know, people have responsibilities, and they've got childcare and mortgages and the pressures and complexities of life, but you've gone through a pandemic. So that's that's the hardest part right now is the time to kind of think about, well, what does this look like? Like what? What is your meaning and purpose? Like? What do you want to have in your life more of or what do you want to have less of? You know the big coaching questions. What do you want more of? Or what do you want less of?

Erica D'Eramo 1:08:48

Yeah, yeah. I think this is a good opportunity as well to talk to the managers and the leaders out there about when your employees are struggling, or they are going through this like what can the leaders and the and the managers be doing to keep an eye on that to be taking care of their own mental health perhaps?

Ruth Cooper Dickson 1:09:10

You touched on it before with the boundaries about role modeling. So there's gonna have to be a real piece from leaders and managers to role model the best practice. And not doing what they kind of expect their leader or manager to do, right. So it goes all the way up to the top. The more senior leaders that hopefully listen to this that it can set a precedent then others follow suit. So try and role model those best practices. You won't get it right they'll be times you mess up, but that's okay. Forgive yourself. Compassion... compassionate leadership is also about strength. People think compassionate is just softness, it's also having strength in that to hold that space for your teams and your people. So listening as you know, active listening, listening non judgmentally. Like why does Erica want to not come into work? She doesn't have childcare responsibility. She's at the top of her game, blah, blah, blah, like, why wouldn't you want to be in the office? You know, actually, this isn't just about what you might know of Erica on a surface level in terms of her responsibilities and commitments, this is much more deeper than that. So actually not listening, listening with that kind of non judgmental ear of understanding, signposting mental health support where needed, whether that's your employee assistance provision, or health care insurance or therapy or whatever, you have... coaching, internal coaching, external coaching support, which would be massively beneficial.

Erica D'Eramo 1:10:36

I agree.

Ruth Cooper Dickson 1:10:37

And also asking, what can I do to help you? Like what do you need from me? What would help you? Because I think leaders and often managers forget to ask that question. They kind of are like taking all this stuff in from an employee who sometimes might be the first time they've even articulated this out loud, or they're worried to death about having this conversation. So they get all tongue tied, and it all comes this big one big ramble or they kind of just blurt it all out with no kind of thought, thought through. And so just saying, like, well, maybe go away and have a think about what it is that you need from me, like going back to my point before about maybe say to your manager, this is some of the options I'm thinking, like, what do you think or? You know, ask them what you need, what they need from you as well. Like, that is a good starting point to kind of work from.

Erica D'Eramo 1:11:30

Yeah. Yeah. Being open minded.

Ruth Cooper Dickson 1:11:31

Yeah. Because if they just want to download to you, they might just want to download. So that's very different to actually there is something you could do to help and support me with this. Or it might just be I just want you to know how I'm feeling as my manager.

Erica D'Eramo 1:11:46

Yeah.

Ruth Cooper Dickson 1:11:46

Which is a pretty big thing in itself, but just... they may not need anything from you. But sometimes just asking that question gets the employee thinking, oh, okay, I hadn't really thought about that. What what could you do for me? What would work here? Especially like you say, if somebody has to return to work? Like, what does that look like? Or what else can they do? So.

Erica D'Eramo 1:12:08

Yeah, I mean, this I this is why I'm a big believer in leaders going through some level of coaching training, because those open ended questions, those powerful questions, the what questions and the how questions, can really just open up so much information to you as a leader that gives you access to these opportunities that you know, your team can be doing.... really performing, if you can tap into that and support your employees in the way that they need to be supported, not necessarily the way that you enjoy being supported. So yeah, really, really good stuff in there. So Ruth, if people want to know more about what Champs has to offer and and resources that they have workshops, coaching, etc., where should they go? What what should they look for?

Ruth Cooper Dickson 1:12:56

You can find our website champsconsult.com. And we are also on all social media channels, which are all listed below in your show notes. So you've got all the links there, and you can reach out to us. If you go to the website, you can also download a free quickstart well being strategic guide, which is really handy and helpful. So it's a good starting point for for your journey.

Erica D'Eramo 1:13:22

Yeah, great. So I'll, I'll definitely advise our listeners to keep an eye out for webinars that come through. Ruth and her team have really great resources. And they are certainly friends of Two Piers Consulting, so. In fact, I probably owe a lot of the genesis of Two Piers to Ruth because it was sort of our conversations way back when that made me realize I I really wanted to do this. So thank you so much for taking the time to talk to us about this kind of transitional world that we're in right now and and how it's gonna look. We really appreciate it.

Ruth Cooper Dickson 1:14:02

We need to do one next year and do a update as to where we're at, what we what we've seen happening.

Erica D'Eramo 1:14:07

Year in review, check our assumptions.

Ruth Cooper Dickson 1:14:10

Thank you for having me.

Erica D'Eramo 1:14:11

Yeah, absolutely. And thanks to everyone for joining for our our latest podcast episode. And for Two Piers, you can find us online at twopiersconsulting.com, or on all of the social media channels. So we're on LinkedIn, Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram, and we look forward to seeing you at the next episode.

Let's Talk About Intersectionality

Photo courtesy of picnoi.

This week, we welcome our trusted friend and advisor, Kamilah Cole, to join us in a discussion of intersectionality. We explore the history and evolution of the term, how it shows up in our lives, and how we can be more mindful of intersectionality as we strive toward diversity, equity and inclusion in the workplace. 

Transcript below:

Erica D'Eramo 0:05

Hello, and welcome to the two peers podcast season two. Today we are joined by our guest, Kamilah Cole. So Kamila is a paralegal with experience in corporate law firms. She's originally from Baltimore City and has 30 plus years of experience living at some of the busiest intersections of identity.

Erica D'Eramo 0:34

So full disclosure, Kamilah is one of my dearest and most trusted friends. We met way back in our college days when Kamilah served as the President and I served as the Vice President of a sorority called Lambda Delta Omega, which was specifically for lesbian, bisexual, transgender and ally women. Not only that, we also served on the Student Senate together, so we were quite busy. Kamilah now serves, you know, more than 20 years later, serves as an advisor and board member for Two Piers.

Erica D'Eramo 1:06

Today, we'll be exploring the topic of intersectionality: some of the history around the term and what it means as well as how it manifests in the workplace, especially in terms of fostering diversity, equity, and inclusion. So welcome, Kamilah.

Kamilah Cole 1:20

Hi! Hello Erica.

Erica D'Eramo 1:21

Hi!

Kamilah Cole 1:21

How are you?

Erica D'Eramo 1:22

Good. It's good to have you on finally.

Kamilah Cole 1:25

Yes.

Erica D'Eramo 1:27

So yeah, thanks for joining us today. Um, I feel like this is a topic that you and I have discussed over the years. And it's a topic that I thought was really good for us to discuss now, particularly with Pride Month upon us and all of the, all of the attention we're seeing around one certain type of identity and intersection. And yeah, I thought, you know, you'd have some good thoughts to share with us.

Kamilah Cole 1:56

Yeah, thank you for having me. I love intersectionality. It's, it's a fun topic to talk about can't wait to get in it.

Erica D'Eramo 2:04

Yeah, it's really impactful too.

Kamilah Cole 2:05

Yeah.

Erica D'Eramo 2:06

So how would you describe like the just the kind of textbook definition of intersectionality as we, as as defined today.

Kamilah Cole 2:15

So the dictionary defines intersectionality as the interconnected nature of social categorizations, such as race, class and gender, as they apply to any given individual or group regarded as creating, overlapping and interdependent systems of discrimination or disadvantage.

Erica D'Eramo 2:33

That's a lot of words.

Kamilah Cole 2:34

That is a lot of words.

Erica D'Eramo 2:36

Yeah,

Kamilah Cole 2:37

Take a deep breath there.

Erica D'Eramo 2:41

All right. Okay. And the history of intersectionality which is kind of used, it's used a lot now, I feel like I you see it and hear it quite a bit. Although I'm not sure if people really know where it came from, or what the history of it was, and, it, it dates back to 1989. And a professor named Kimberly Crenshaw, Kimberly Williams Crenshaw, who used the term in a 1989 paper that was quite, you know, highly regarded, and widely read from the University of Chicago legal forum called Demarginalizing the Intersection of Race and Sex: A Black Feminist Critique of Anti-discrimination Doctrine, Feminist Theory and Anti-racist Politics. Also, also, a lot to say, yeah,

Kamilah Cole 3:39

Thank you, Professor Crenshaw, for bringing intersectionality to us, to the masses.

Erica D'Eramo 3:45

Yeah, I mean, I think it came about originally, really to describe, like, specifically around race and gender.

Kamilah Cole 3:56

Mm hmm.

Erica D'Eramo 3:57

Because, I mean, let's face it for like, a lot of history, feminism has been about white women.

Kamilah Cole 4:04

Yeah. Yeah.

Erica D'Eramo 4:06

And has not actually described the experiences of Black women

Kamilah Cole 4:11

Anyone else?

Erica D'Eramo 4:12

Yeah. Well, anyone else?

Kamilah Cole 4:13

Anyone else?

Erica D'Eramo 4:15

Yeah, let's not forget that the suffrage movement actually relied heavily on racism, right. I mean, Elizabeth Cady Stanton and Susan B. Anthony outright opposed the passage of the 15th amendment and relied on arguments, very racist arguments for why white women should get to vote to like, outweigh the black vote. So

Kamilah Cole 4:41

Exactly.

Erica D'Eramo 4:42

So like white feminism didn't have a great run there for a while.

Kamilah Cole 4:49

And a complicated track record? For sure.

Erica D'Eramo 4:51

Yeah, yeah. So So yeah, I think this, I don't know which wave of feminism it was. I think I think that this introduction in 1989 of the term kind of started to get some attention. And by the 2000s, it really started to get picked up and standing intersectionality. And while the genesis was around like race and gender, now it's expanded really to, to talk about, like humans as our whole selves, and all the different ways that they are marginalized, or all the different ways they they experience the world.

Kamilah Cole 5:29

Exactly. You know, humans, I think are way more complex than we give ourselves credit for. and way more capable of being so multifaceted. But we do like to boil ourselves down to very simple, simple things, simple sort of categories. And I think, you know, intersectionality has, is really gaining traction as people really come to embracing this, like, we're more than just a race or sex, our orientation, you know, things of that nature. But yeah,

Erica D'Eramo 6:13

Yeah. And I think this is a really important topic for us at Two Piers, because the work that we're trying to do to tackle inequality in the workplace, and to really promote diversity, equity and inclusion in the workplace. What we often encounter is companies and organizations that have really good intentions, perhaps they set goals. And they have, you know, projects and efforts and work streams to address the, you know, DEI initiatives. But when looking at it through a very segmented lens, as a task force around race, a task force around LGBTQ, a task force around gender, it leaves so much of the lived experiences of the employees kind of out of the picture.

Kamilah Cole 7:14

Exactly. And I do think that I was gonna say, especially in the workplace, you see how, especially in corporate spaces, the workforce tends to be segregated by race and class in this very white at the top, and the, you know, black and brown at the bottom, sort of way in, in terms of like, for my firm, for instance. And most of the times I've been to people on the sort of service level, the assistants, and all of those are alway, always tend to be predominantly Black and brown, and predominantly women I find, and so whereas like, the attorneys tend to be white and male. So, no surprise there. But, you know, I just found that it, it some times holds people back, because those, you know, people are not allowed to sort of ascend different levels all the time. And people are often, I've been at places where they hire like, like-colored people, like, you know, other women, because they're like, well, they'll be more comfortable, they'll fit in with the whole the rest of them.

Erica D'Eramo 8:37

Culture fit.

Kamilah Cole 8:38

Culture fit. Yeah, yeah. So yeah, I mean, I think intersectionality if you're talking about the diversity and inclusion efforts that a lot of a lot of employers are trying to implement, or at least on paper, you don't see enough talk about I think, intersectionality and how the workforce is made up of these complex people who have many different needs and different lives and identities as well.

Erica D'Eramo 9:14

Yeah. I mean, I want to revisit this a little bit later through, you know, in terms of how this manifests in the corporate space. I think a lot of times, it gets boiled down, you know, these different boxes that we put people in, become sort of check boxes in the corporate world, like, "Oh, look, we're doing okay, on diversity, because we have these candidates and they check these boxes." And in reality, it's really more like a kaleidoscope, like you're putting one lens in front of another and you're creating a totally different outcome. So you can have Black, yeah, right. Like you can have a Black man and a white woman and you don't have you're completely missing out on the lived experiences of Black women in that case, who live with very different types of marginalization and, and stressors and tensions in their lives that white women will never understand. And Black men will never understand. Like, just as one of the most dominant examples out there, right? One of the most common examples out there.

Erica D'Eramo 10:26

But I did want to give listeners, like, some examples around some more examples. So just give some color to intersectionality. Because I think we do recent, huh. To give some illustration, to the, to this concept, because, um, I find that is, because race and gender are usually what we talked about, that some of the other elements of intersectionality are maybe less familiar. And so giving people you know, other touch points to think about. So, I mean, race and gender. That is, that's a whole actually, there's a whole different terminology even there as well, right?

Kamilah Cole 11:17

Yeah, exactly. There's... as a Black woman, an expert on this topic, no, I kid. But gender and race is where you sort of, "baby's first intersection," that's where you, you know, like, that's the easiest, that's the easiest, like, sort of tangible example of how people live at these intersections. As a Black woman, I deal with a lot of misogynoir, which is defined as a hate, you know, a hatred, a dislike for Black women. And it's sort of takes sexism to another level and sort of adds in this intersectional approach, and is a way to, like shine a light on like, you know, there are instances in which there are ways I should say, in which Black women have to navigate around the world in ways that other people do not. And also in it also is about the ways that Black women are discriminated against, especially if they're darker, if they're bigger if they are any, any shade of LGBTQIA.

Erica D'Eramo 12:39

Yeah, misog..., misogyn, misogynoir.

Kamilah Cole 12:42

It's a little it's a little, it's a little bit for the tongue. You know, it's a little tongue twister. But you know, it's it's the misogyny, that Black women, Black femmes face, I would say even Black, non-binary people face in a way. Because we, a lot of people view the world in very binary terms, you know, so yeah, you definitely see that come up a lot. But there's so many, you know, there's a lot more.

Erica D'Eramo 13:17

Yeah, there is a lot more. I mean, I'm, I'm just curious. How do you describe your intersectionality? What intersections do you live at?

Kamilah Cole 13:28

Oooohh. Well,

Erica D'Eramo 13:30

I say I'm curious. I would like you to...

Kamilah Cole 13:32

I'm about to drop some secrets on you. No, no. Yeah, I think you'll I think you won't be surprised by any of these. As I said, I live at the corner of Black and lady. So I'm a woman, I also identify as queer, mostly lesbian, sometimes gay, sometimes, you know, but, uh, I definitely have that intersection as well. I'm also a first generation American. So I grew up with an immigrant family. And immigrant life in America is its own... Trying to think of a nice way to say it, but it's its own thing. You know,

Erica D'Eramo 14:26

Its own experience

Kamilah Cole 14:30

...experience. And I also also deal with, you know, I live with mental health issues. And that's another that's definitely something I feel as though in corporate spaces, you don't really get to talk about how that affects people's lives, how that affects, you know, how they operate within the workspace. And yeah, that's definitely At least a another intersection that I that I live with. What about you? What intersections do you have?

Erica D'Eramo 15:09

Well, well before I share my intersections, I do want to say like the mental health, and neuro neuro diversity, which I feel like is somewhat related, like how our brains are working?

Kamilah Cole 15:24

Yes,

Erica D'Eramo 15:25

Um, we have we actually have an upcoming podcast episodes talking specifically around that and like the transition we're going through right now, but how that manifests in different cultures and like the acceptance of that in different based on, you know, like, especially in different immigrant communities that, you know, might have varying levels of acceptance, or support. Same with orientation, right, like, yeah, so let's see, my, I guess some of my intersections would certainly be white lady, queer lady. I also would identify as neurodiverse I deal with ADHD. Um, I say deal with because I don't know, it's like my superpower as well as my like. Yeah, something that challenges me. And I don't know, what are my other intersections?

Kamilah Cole 16:41

You don't want children? But sometimes, it feels like being a motherless woman is, especially in the workplace. It can it can cause problems either way.

Erica D'Eramo 16:58

Yeah, I mean, I've definitely taken less traditional life choices in some ways. So yeah, but I think that the way it's interesting, right, because I am, I am also married to a man. And so as a white woman who I mean, I don't know as far as gender goes, I I'm not super femmy. I'm not super butch. I'm kind of just like, somewhere in the middle. There's a lot of assumptions around my queerness. And that I must be straight. And cis, and I do identify it cis, but it's just there are a lot of assumptions that get made. So

Kamilah Cole 17:47

Yeah,

Erica D'Eramo 17:48

Yeah.

Kamilah Cole 17:49

Yeah, no one ever knows I'm gay, it's horrible. It's unfortunate.

Erica D'Eramo 17:57

Are you joking?

Kamilah Cole 17:59

No, I'm not joking.

Erica D'Eramo 18:00

Really? Oh, it's just I've known you so long, I just...

Kamilah Cole 18:03

I know. I know. I've known me so long that sometimes when people when someone reads me and st may ask me something like, Oh, do you have a boyfriend? I'm like, why would you ask me that? Like, I'm just shocked. Like, what are you talking about? I don't have a boyfriend. But I'm like, Oh, you don't know me? You haven't known me for the last 20 years like you.

Erica D'Eramo 18:23

Amazing. I love it. So yeah, I mean, like actual actually like that sexual orientation, cultural heritage, that is an a big intersection for people that we don't think about all the time. Especially in Pride Month, you know, like, what different people are dealing with right now.

Kamilah Cole 18:46

Exactly. That also made me it. You know, in terms of the the workplace, the beginning of the year is always, you know, we start the onslaught of everybody gets their own month, right. And so we get Black History Month, I'm sorry, January, I don't know what it is. But I don't think it's everything. But you know, we start with Black History Month and then there's Women's History Month

Erica D'Eramo 19:13

As you say that we're gonna, we're gonna hear from the people.

Kamilah Cole 19:15

People I am so sorry, whoever's month is January, I'm sorry. But um, you know, the Black people get February and women get March and want to say April was Asian?

Erica D'Eramo 19:32

Nope, nope. The Asian folks and the Mental Health Awareness folks have to share May.

Kamilah Cole 19:38

See, that's not even right. It's not even right. But um, it's just so funny to me, because it's like, we celebrate these things at work. And I think like, when we're celebrating Black History, I'm like, Okay, this is great. But then we celebrate Women's History, and it tends to be very white women focused like we can't talk about brown outside of February. And it just it just like further shows how we live our lives so segmented like, okay, you get to celebrate your blackness this month, and then you get to celebrate your if you're a woman this month, and then if you're also Asian, which you could also be all three of those things in your like. Gotta wait till May. And if you have mental health, go ahead and celebrate that too, because it's also May. It's just like this very, it's like this

Erica D'Eramo 20:38

sort of taxonomy, right? I know.

Kamilah Cole 20:43

And it's no, it just feels like, just another way that we don't. We don't really experience ourselves as full, and complete humans.

Erica D'Eramo 20:57

Yeah, I mean, I do want to since we mentioned Pride Month, and intersectionality, I do want to give, I do want to take a moment to pay tribute to Marsha P. Johnson and Sylvia Rivera, who were kind of the original, some of the original leaders of the Pride movement, like the Stonewall protests,

Erica D'Eramo 21:21

Mhmmm,

Erica D'Eramo 21:22

and who lived at very complicated intersections in life as trans Black and brown women.

Kamilah Cole 21:32

Yes. Who were also struggling economically, you know, living like really with housing insecurity. And I think that's another, that's another intersection that we really need to make sure isn't forgotten, because you could, it's pretty deadly to be poor in this country. So that is definitely an intersection that a lot of people find themselves.

Erica D'Eramo 22:04

Yeah. I mean, class. So there's, the book I'm reading right now is called Caste. I'm a little late to the game, but I wanted to be able to give this one the focus that it deserved, and, and it it talks a lot about I mean race and caste being very much related in the United States, but that there is this economic, social hierarchy that is more complex than just race. So in the US like race is, one of the ways that we determine, it's like one of the primary ways that we determine caste, but it's it's just it is a, I mean, if this is a topic that interests people, if intersectionality interests people, I highly recommend that book because it definitely takes a more complex look at how this manifests through class, socio economic status, intergenerational wealth, and kind of trauma and oppression. Really light stuff. Real light reading? So what are some other? So what are some other intersections that we see a lot, that maybe we aren't thinking about?

Kamilah Cole 23:24

Disability, especially, like, it's also something especially since not all disabilities are visible, you know? That's definitely an intersection people find themselves at and also a place where, you know, the workplace can get really hairy, it can get really inaccessible, or just in general, not a friendly place to be so.

Erica D'Eramo 23:55

Yeah, I mean, if you even just look at, like, the strong Black woman kind of trope, right, that we've placed on an entire population of people that makes it very hard to show vulnerability to show depression and like, like somehow depression isn't affecting Black women who are bearing like,

Kamilah Cole 24:27

Yeah,

Erica D'Eramo 24:27

more burden than a lot of other people. So yeah, I mean, and, and also, like we said, how it is treated and accepted. Culturally, especially like in first generation, families. I'm, I'm now third generation Italian American. But I can say that like, depression, alcoholism, ADHD, some of that stuff was just like, it was not talked about you needed to buckle up and toughen up and just live in misery. Right? And now. Now it's becoming like, more accepted in in, I don't know, like my, my networks to talk about these things and to be vulnerable, but there are still plenty of populations in this country and everywhere where mental health issues are seen as a weakness or a flaw.

Kamilah Cole 25:29

Definitely.

Erica D'Eramo 25:30

Yeah. So I mean, one topic that came up to me, or that came up in a recent conversation that I was having was with a good friend of mine. She and her wife have kids, and she was talking about how, you know, especially during the pandemic, like, how they decided which person was going to do primary child care and scale back her hours at work and how in their case, you know, you can end up with both female parents on like a mommy track when they have kids, right, both of them facing a gender wage gap, both of them facing more difficulty in securing loans or financing or mortgages. And facing that discrimination. So in that way, kind of like sexual orientation, gender, and class had a really interesting intersection that I don't I don't know why it hadn't really occurred to me until then that like, Oh, yeah. I mean, you're both facing the wage gap. Yeah. And the mommy track?

Kamilah Cole 26:36

Track. Yeah.

Erica D'Eramo 26:38

Mm hmm.

Kamilah Cole 26:39

And that's another thing, you know, you during the pandemic, when there were, a lot of people got to work from home. But there were also a large number of people whose job just could not go remote, you know, and then that puts them in this really precarious situation where their kids aren't going to school, they still have to go to work in a pandemic. And I can imagine that, I mean, I, you know, how many 1000s of stories of that had there have there possibly been, you know, during the, like, really thick parts of the pandemic that, you know, we don't really talk about, like, these are the things that women are going through, especially women of color, who are making less and also potentially raising up children, you know, as well on that less money. Um, yeah, so,

Erica D'Eramo 27:38

Yeah, I mean, we we definitely saw COVID exacerbate issues. Well, I mean, in women's engagement in the workforce dropped to levels that we haven't seen since 1980. We lost like 30 years of progress with women's participation in the labor market. And we know that COVID hit communities of color are particularly hard in particularly devastating ways. So yeah,

Kamilah Cole 28:06

Yeah. Yeah.

Erica D'Eramo 28:09

Okay, I have another interesting one, ethnicity and race.

Kamilah Cole 28:13

Mm hmm.

Erica D'Eramo 28:15

Those are the same thing. Right?

Kamilah Cole 28:16

They are not.

Erica D'Eramo 28:17

Oh, tell me more!

Kamilah Cole 28:21

Well, your ethnicity is more about the country, the place the region that your people are from. I remember growing up, a lot of people were moving towards using the term African American to describe every single, dark, brown person that they met. And so but my mother, for instance, never identified as African American. And I actually have never liked the term African American. But my mother,

Erica D'Eramo 28:59

For you or for everyone?

Kamilah Cole 29:00

For me.

Erica D'Eramo 29:02

For you. Yeah.

Kamilah Cole 29:03

I can't speak for everyone. I don't know all the people. I'm

Erica D'Eramo 29:09

Just clarifying

Kamilah Cole 29:10

Just clarifying, yeah. But I remember being sort of shocked when my mother said, I'm not African American. And I was like, Oh, that must have been in like, middle school or early high school. I was like, Oh, yeah, no, that makes sense. You're not from America. But she did identify as Black. So her ethnicity is Jamaican, and her race is Black.

Erica D'Eramo 29:41

Emmanuel Acho's book, Awkward Conversations With A Black Man, kind of talks about this because his family also identifies, like, he also is, I think, first generation from an immigrant family and he kind of responds to like, questions he gets and one of the questions is around like, Can I, should I use the term African American should I use the term Black? And he's kind of like, well, you should just ask people how they identify. You just don't know. You just do know, we can't assume. But

Kamilah Cole 30:16

I think you should always just ask.

Erica D'Eramo 30:19

Yeah.

Kamilah Cole 30:20

I mean if you want. If it matters to what you your dealings with this person, I suppose you know, if you're in line,

Erica D'Eramo 30:28

If it's, if it's germane. Yeah. Like, we're not advising for anyone to just go around asking like, Hello, are you identify as Black or African American?

Kamilah Cole 30:40

If you're in line at your local Target, please don't do such things.

Erica D'Eramo 30:44

Please don't.

Kamilah Cole 30:44

But yeah,

Erica D'Eramo 30:45

Yeah.

Kamilah Cole 30:46

But I think people are afraid. You know, in an effort, I think there's always been this concerted effort to get people to not talk about race, because there's this fallacy that if you talk about it, it will exist, but it already exists. In one shape or the other. So, you know, I encourage people to not be afraid to just ask.

Erica D'Eramo 31:16

Yeah, like, respectfully,

Kamilah Cole 31:18

Respectfully like, and I like to I like to lead with, I identify as X, Y, and Z. How do you identify that's a great way to get into somebody's business and find out...

Erica D'Eramo 31:32

Yeah,

Kamilah Cole 31:33

...what they are

Erica D'Eramo 31:33

Again, like if it's germane,

Kamilah Cole 31:35

Yeah,

Erica D'Eramo 31:35

I think, right? Like, if it's, if you're trying to be respectful, and you need to use a term, just don't don't be assuming. This comes this also applies to like orientation. Right? I mean, let people self identify. Yeah, but don't expect them to educate you. That's my caveat. Right? Like, if you're gonna ask them how they identify.

Kamilah Cole 32:05

Yeah, if you need more information Google is free.

Erica D'Eramo 32:13

Google is free. Yeah. I mean, and not just Google, right. There are so many really good resources out there. Doing research this day. These days. Yeah, yeah, books, podcasts. There's Yahoo, or YouTube? Um, yeah, there's plenty of resources...

Kamilah Cole 32:37

Definitely.

Erica D'Eramo 32:38

So. So you asked me how I identify like, I think it's interesting, too, because we, you and I have talked about how white is an intersection too, right? Because when we assume that white is not, we assume white as the default.

Kamilah Cole 32:56

Mm hmm.

Erica D'Eramo 32:57

And everyone else is the other. And so I think like, for me, it's important to recognize how my whiteness shows up and what that means as far as like, especially in terms of privilege. Yeah. And the implications of my actions sometimes. Yeah, thanks for thanks for asking me. So we wanted to talk about how it manifests in the workplace. We talked about a little bit of that with Pride Month and are like different designated months where you get to be the certain thing.

Kamilah Cole 33:32

Yeah.

Erica D'Eramo 33:33

More of that thing than other months?

Kamilah Cole 33:35

Yes. Um, yes.

Erica D'Eramo 33:38

I think what another area I see it come through, or lack of intersectionality, I guess, is around kind of these BRGs or business resource groups or employee resource groups, where they will sometimes elevate voices of people, you know, who are wearing multiple different hats and identities, but often the focus is around, like coming together around this one trait and how that exists in the company and how they can support each other in that one way. And it can sometimes disregard intersectionality, right, like women's groups. I have heard about certain companies where, say, you know, like, the women's group might host something around uh Black History Month, and it's led by white women. And not you know, and not a Black woman has been consulted on on this or asked for their input. So, I think we need to be a little careful.

Kamilah Cole 34:56

Exactly. I also see it come up in the ways of like, Hmm, I found in corporate spaces, if there is a chance to connect you with a mentor or a mentee, there is definitely a push to connect you with someone who is just like you, but maybe is not actually just like you.

Erica D'Eramo 35:22

Like at all,

Kamilah Cole 35:24

At all. For instance, I would say for instance, if I entered a new workplace, and they tried to connect me with someone who was very religious, I wouldn't have a problem with it. But I could see if they wanted to hold my hand and pray. And I said, No. And they were upset, you know, like that could cause an issue. And we may both be Black people, we may both be Black women, but like, that is an area that could potentially cause some rift between us, you know, if somebody's, not a rift, Wow, that sounds really horrible. Um not like a fight. But you know, like, I just think that,

Erica D'Eramo 36:10

Yeah.

Kamilah Cole 36:12

That's an example cuz I know of some people I've know of workplaces where it was, a lot of it was all Black people, and a variety of ages of Black people. And so the culture really skewed very religious, and there was regular praying together, in like, before meetings, and events. And so if you're someone like me, who doesn't ascribe to organized religion, that may feel uncomfortable, but, you know, everybody out, you data, that's an intersection that the people in that room would not think about, necessarily, right? And how that sort of manifests?

Erica D'Eramo 37:03

Yeah, because you are, these are like, we're going farther down the iceberg, right? Like, the, the visibility of some of these differences. And sometimes we wear indicators of what our religious affiliation is, or spiritual affiliation. And sometimes we are very out in the workplace, or we give indications of that. But oftentimes, you don't know you don't know about the people's disabilities, you don't know about their religion, you don't know about their orientation, or gender identity? Don't know.

Kamilah Cole 37:39

No, you do not know. And also, you know, especially in terms of like, gender, you don't know where they are in the, you know, like, what am I saying, people intersections, or are moving living breathing things? And so some, you know, I'm likely always going to be Black, but I may not always identify as a woman. I may not, you know, I think we also need to be open to the possibility that people's identities shift over time and in in different ways.

Erica D'Eramo 38:18

Yeah. I mean, and, and what's going on in the world, sometimes can force sort of a prioritization, I guess, of like, how you would rank that those identities like how, you know, if I said, "How do you identify?" just the very order in which you describe those different identities can change over time? Yeah. I think like way back when, when I was a bit younger and naiver? More, more naive, naiver? More naive.

Kamilah Cole 38:57

More naive.

Erica D'Eramo 38:57

Um definitely more naive. Um, I think I like asked you kind of, what do you see as your primary identity? Like if you had to choose sides, like what would it be? Would it be like queer? woman? Black like, and, yeah,

Kamilah Cole 39:19

And there was a time when I was also younger and naivier, more naive, that I would have probably maybe told you Black because I felt like I had to choose Black. There has been a notion, I mean it still persists that you are within the Black community that you are you could potentially be, you're Black first before everything else. And certain certainly in the perception of other people. You are Black first before anything else because people perceive you. People use their eyes typically to determine who you are whatever, at least, like get a guesstimate of who you are. And so, but now, now that, thank you to Professor Crenshaw, I have a word. It's called intersectionality. I don't have to guess I live right.

Erica D'Eramo 40:20

And be all the things.

Kamilah Cole 40:21

...in the right place, I am all the things at the same time all the time, to varying degrees. And I think that's beautiful. You know, I think that

Erica D'Eramo 40:29

Yeah. I mean, so when we were researching this a little bit, um, and we saw the quote from bell hooks, where she she kind of said, the emergence of intersectionality, is it it challenged the notion that gender was the primary factor determining a woman's fate, right, that it might be other things like race, that might be the primary determinant of a woman's fate at that time. And that evolves over time, right. Like, that's different societal shifts and stuff can certainly impact what is going to most affect people at any given time. I want to just to revisit in the workplace intersectionality. I think one of the other areas, and maybe this occurs, you know, in BRGs, maybe this is sort of what I'm thinking about, but when we speak on behalf of people that we think, are just like us, we speak for, you know, when I, if I were to speak for women, right, I am absolutely not able to speak on behalf of most women, actually, yeah. Well, there's one woman I can speak on behalf of, but I mean, I'm just saying, like, to the experiences, the experiences I've had are those of a white woman existing, you know, a financially secure, housing secure white woman. And I think it can be well intentioned. And I think it can be really detrimental. And so an alternative of speaking on behalf of people would be to elevate their voices, right, to like, raise up those voices, make sure those voices are being heard.

Kamilah Cole 42:25

And allowing people to I mean, I think I think, you know, in the workplace, we just really need to consider as many of people's like, identities as possible, you know, like, elevating people, and then sort of, I mean, I think it's, I think you want to stay clear of tokenism. You know, so really honoring that people are, are more than one thing, usually more than two things even. So,

Erica D'Eramo 43:01

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, quite a few. Okay, so for anyone who wants to know more about this topic and educate them a bit more themselves a bit more like where where would you recommend they go?

Kamilah Cole 43:12

Currently, I'm reading an awesome book by Heather McGee. It's called The Sum of Us: What Racism Costs Everyone and How We Can Prosper Together. And it's really focused around the toll that racism has had on people especially in America. And how we can move forward, move on and

Erica D'Eramo 43:37

yeah,

Kamilah Cole 43:38

work well together.

Erica D'Eramo 43:39

When you say the some of us You mean "s u m" or "s o m e,"

Kamilah Cole 43:43

I mean "s u m" the some of

Erica D'Eramo 43:46

Like the mathematical sum. Yeah. My recommendation would be a YouTube series called hashtag RaceAnd, and it's presented by an organization called Race Forward and they have various videos that discuss like "race and" and the different intersections that people kind of face. And there's lots of great voices on Twitter, like one of my favorites that kind of discusses his different intersections is Michael W. Twitty. I love following him for the food, but also his kind of analysis of like religion and orientation and queerness and blackness and and Ijeoma Oluo

Kamilah Cole 44:30

Ijeoma Oluo.

Erica D'Eramo 44:32

Yeah, she's an incredible author, and also has really good commentary on these topics, on Twitter as well. And if you want to work with Two Piers and kind of look at how your organization handles intersectionality and where you could improve some of your offerings or if you need support or resources, then you can find us at twopiersconsulting.com or on any of the social media platforms, so Instagram, Twitter, Facebook and LinkedIn. And with that, thank you so much, Kamilah for coming on and giving us your candid insights.

Kamilah Cole 45:13

Thank you for having me Erica.

Erica D'Eramo 45:15

Really appreciate it.

So What Exactly Is Coaching Anyway?

Photo courtesy of Unsplash.

In this week's episode we sit down with return guest Alisa Tijerina who switches it up and asks us all of her questions about coaching: what it is, who it's meant for, how to find a coach, and more. If you've ever wondered what exactly coaching entails and whether it's right for you, this is your episode!

Transcript below:

Erica D'Eramo 0:10

Hello, and welcome to the Two Piers podcast, Season Two. Today we're going to switch it up a little, we have a return guest, our first return guest, Alisa Tijerina, who joined us at the beginning of the pandemic, is back to join us again. And today we're going to change roles a bit. So instead of me asking the questions, Alisa has a bunch of questions for me about coaching, and what coaching is and involves. And so we thought we should just record this conversation and make it available for our podcast listeners, because we get a lot of questions about what is coaching.

Erica D'Eramo 0:54

So welcome, Alisa.

Alisa Tijerina 0:57

Thank you, Erica. I'm glad to be back.

Erica D'Eramo 0:59

Yeah, it's good to have you here. So what are some of your questions?

Alisa Tijerina 1:04

So I know you're a coach, tell me what, what is a coach?

Erica D'Eramo 1:07

Yeah, I mean, we get this question all the time. A coach can mean a lot of different things. In this context, we're not talking about a sports coach, because that's somebody who kind of gives people directions and, and kind of tells people what to do. And that's actually the opposite of the type of coaching that we're talking about. So what we're talking about is what the International Coaching Federation defines as partnering with clients, so a coach partners with their client, in a thought provoking and creative process that inspires them to maximize their personal and professional potential. So coaching, as defined by ICF, often unlocks previously untapped sources of imagination, productivity, and leadership. So it's really about two peers, there's not a hierarchy in coaching, two peers coming together. And the coach can shine a light for the client. I really liked an analogy presented to me by one of my instructors, that, you know, the coach walks alongside the client and just shines a flashlight to help the client decide where they want to go and what their decisions are. But it's very much client driven and client led, and the coach is there to help facilitate.

Alisa Tijerina 2:24

Very cool. Okay, so what is not coaching?

Erica D'Eramo 2:28

Yeah, there are a lot of things that look like coaching that are not actually coaching. So sometimes what we do in coaching can look a lot like therapy, because there's a lot of questions. There's a lot of introspection, but it's not therapy. So therapy looks backwards, right, therapy is looking at previous events and experiences and, and it is in the context of working with a professional therapist who is certified. And, and sometimes in a clinical setting. So therapy is more, you know, backwards looking to address current issues. Whereas coaching is very much forward, focused, looking at your goals and what you need to do to be able to achieve those goals. The other thing that coaching is not that it often gets confused with is it's not mentoring, because again, mentoring has a hierarchy to it like a mentor is usually a more experienced person, a mentor will give advice, coaches really kind of try to stay away from giving advice, because then it's coming from the coach. And the coach is essentially telling the client, I know better than you. And we don't want that in coaching. There's a great TED talk that addresses this by someone in the coaching worlds called Michael Bungay Stanier. And his TED Talk is called The Advice Monster. So I highly recommend looking at The Advice Monster, you'll probably never view advice the same way again. And then coaching is not consulting. So again, consulting is kind of giving solutions and being the expert. And a lot of times when people think that they're looking for a coach, what they're actually looking for is someone to tell them what the answers are. So if that's what you're looking for, you should probably find a mentor or a consultant. But if what you want is to discover the answers, and have someone help guide you through that, through kind of a developed process, then a coach is a great place to start.

Alisa Tijerina 4:30

Wow, thanks. I didn't realize there were that many different options. So tell me about coaches. What, what is, what kind of coaches are there and what kind of coach are you?

Erica D'Eramo 4:44

There's really a massive spectrum of types of coaches. We hear a lot about life coaches. We certainly hear a lot about you know, sports coaches, which we said are kind of excluded from this conversation. But there are fitness coaches who again will pair you know, partner with a client to reach their goals. And there are people who work in very specific niches. So stuff like transition, transitioning into different careers, transitioning from perhaps taking a career break to going back into the workforce, transitioning into a different life change. So maybe having kids and trying to balance work in life, or even transitioning geographically. So one coach that I know specializes in people repatriating after expat assignments or international assignments. So there can be very specific niches. My niche that I am focused on is kind of twofold. I like to work with clients who are in really challenging work environments, specifically, people who are kind of one of the only, and then name your demographic. So one of the only women, one of the only people of color, so people who are kind of facing pretty challenging environments. And then the other piece of my, you know, client pool is people who are working to change that. So people working in a diversity, equity and inclusion space to try to, you know, make change, sustainable change in their organizations. So those are those are the two areas that I'm focused on.

Alisa Tijerina 6:21

Yeah. Wow. Thank you. So another question. What, so do you have to get certifications like what what makes you a coach?

Erica D'Eramo 6:30

There are plenty of coaches out there who don't go through any sort of certification. And, and there are pros and cons, sometimes it's very specific, and they don't need that. And a lot of times that type of coach may be providing a mixture of coaching and consulting, or coaching and mentoring. I think that there is some value in finding coaches that do have a certification for a couple different reasons. So in order to get a certification through a body, like the international coaching Federation, or ICF, you have to go through a really rigorous curriculum. The curriculum I did was 70 hours of class time. And there are really standard competencies that they make sure that you fully understand and embed. And not only that, you have to do a lot of back and forth coaching, so you get to be the client quite a bit. So you're both growing, because you're getting lots of coaching, you're receiving lots of coaching, but you also understand then what it's like to be sitting in that client seat, and you can really empathize with the client experience. There's also some compe... competency thresholds, so you have to be able to record and submit a transcript that is assessed by the governing body and sit through a knowledge assessment test. So you know, there are some there's some thresholds to me as far as competency goes, and accumulation of you know, a certain set number of hours. But I think one of the most important things about working with someone who certifies through a governing body is just that they have to sign up to a code of ethics. So they're held accountable to a code of ethics, and there is recourse if there's a breach of that code of ethics. So that's one thing that I think is really valuable.

Alisa Tijerina 8:21

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, when I, when I think about coaching in the business context, it makes me I feel like it's got a little bit of a negative connotation. Is, you know, like, somebody has a problem, and then they need a coach like, so. Can you, you know, tell me your thoughts on that?

Erica D'Eramo 8:38

Yeah, it's been seen as sort of like a remedial solution in the past that, you know, somebody is kind of ready to get kicked out the door, they've had complaints filed or they've had performance issues, and sort of as a last resort we'll hire a coach for them. That's becoming a thing of the past. I think coaching was not really intended for that necessarily, and, and it presents all sorts of problems when when you have a client who perhaps doesn't necessarily have the backing and support of their organization. Coaching really does best when you have someone who has a high potential, has a high commitment, wants to do the work, knows that they want to grow and has goals. So when it's goal oriented, and positively focused on achieving those goals, rather than rectifying kind of negative things. So if I am going to work with a client, I do an intake to make sure that we're in the right headspace to be able to have an effective relationship and that should you know, that's pretty typical.

Alisa Tijerina 9:46

Yeah, yeah. I guess it is a lot of work for the for the client to and I guess the pair. Okay, so now say I'm ready to sign up to get a coach. What should I expect?

Erica D'Eramo 10:03

So, coaching engagements can take a lot of different forms. But generally they'll follow a framework that involves you know, that intake, understanding each other, and setting goals and then setting kind of a pathway to get to those goals and doing lots of check ins. So that that's kind of a typical coaching engagement, and it will usually last over several months. That's not to say that there can't be one on... one off coaching sessions. I've certainly been the client in plenty of one off coaching sessions, and I've, I've done plenty of one off coaching sessions. But when there can be an arc to the coaching engagement, it can be really powerful, because you can see, you know, over the span of weeks and months, how well the progress is being made. And you can redirect. So a lot of times what you think you want to focus on with your coach will evolve, and you realize, oh, that wasn't, that might have been the presenting issue. But that's not the real issue. So it can look different. And if you work with a company, if if you want to find a coach and you go through your company to find a coach, and the company sponsors that a lot of times there will be like a 360 involved, that speaks to some of your stakeholders, some of your peers, direct reports, your manager, etc. so that you get a full picture of what the perceptions are, for your strengths and weaknesses. And that will usually have, you know, a close out 360 as well to see what kind of progress you've made and potentially updates with the employer. So so it can look a little different if it's a corporate coaching, engagement, or if it's an individual private coaching engagement.

Alisa Tijerina 11:48

So I actually got assigned a coach through work, everybody did on my entire team, and they were doing it through the whole company. And my experience with that. I mean, the person was nice, but we were on way different time zones. They were in Europe, I was in America, we had three conversations, I didn't feel like I got anything out of it.

Erica D'Eramo 12:09

Yeah.

Alisa Tijerina 12:09

It just felt like a waste, it felt like a waste of money, personally. And that was maybe two to three years ago. And then just this year, I got put into a different type of role that's outside of my kinda what my past expertise had has been in, and I've asked for a coach. And it's just like, so hearing you say this, it I was I was not in a space where I felt like I needed a coach and it wasn't... and that experience just was wasn't really helpful. And now I'm in a space where I feel like I want it and I'm pulling it...

Erica D'Eramo 12:48

And probably struggling to get...

Alisa Tijerina 12:50

...and struggling to get one! Yeah. And struggling to get one. So how do I get one?

Erica D'Eramo 12:54

Yeah, I mean, these are all good questions.

Alisa Tijerina 12:56

Where do you find them?

Erica D'Eramo 12:57

Um, first, I just want to go back and explore the previous experience you had with coaching, though, which I think is not atypical. And one of the most important things that you establish in coaching upfront in a relationship is trust, and safety. And so if you guys are dialing in from very different time zones, and perhaps just like it's a bit rushed, or you don't have that, you know, trust and safety built in, it can feel transactional, and you don't develop that like real deep seated trust, where you can be super vulnerable, be super authentic with that person. So things like, you know, I would never tell somebody to do a coaching session when they're hungry, you know, those base needs to be met and needs have to be met, it takes a lot out of you to be on the client side and the coaching side. So you really want to be like rested and fed when you can be. So yeah, that I'm sorry, you had a negative experience. I think we're trying to kind of change the perception there. How you can find a coach, though, is, is a great question. Um, a lot of times, companies will say, you know, we don't need to hire an external coach just find, find the coaching internally. There is some expert in the company that can help you. And I understand that that's like well intended advice. And also, it's probably a bit misguided.

Alisa Tijerina 14:23

That is exactly what I'm being told now.

Erica D'Eramo 14:26

Yeah. I'm not surprised. Um, I think that you run into all sorts of interesting complications when that person is within your organization because it puts in questions, sometimes the trust and the objectivity because perhaps they are within your reporting line. That's never something you really want to have. I think leaders should certainly develop coaching habits and coaching mentality. I think that that's kind of an element of being a great leader and your clients should not be your direct reports because there's a absolute conflict of interest there. So it introduces potential conflicts of interest. And also that person has not been trained in how to handle coaching, and how to progress, you know, a client. So I would push back on that. And I think if you want to find a coach, and your organization doesn't have an avenue for you to pursue that you can find one on your own. There are plenty of resources out there to find coaches, there are plenty of niches, like we discussed to meet exactly the needs that you're looking for.

Alisa Tijerina 15:36

Well, so Erica, you've known me for a long time, you know that I'm pretty cautious, cost conscious? How much do coaches cost?

Erica D'Eramo 15:45

Another great question. It really can kind of span a very broad spectrum. So in corporate engagements, and with executive coaches, you know, like the CEOs of some of the, you know, Fortune 10 companies have coaches. And the sky is going to be the limit for what those engagements cost. But that's really representative of the value they're bringing, both to the leader and to the organization. If you're on a very tight budget, coaching is not inaccessible, we would not, especially for Two Piers, that's one of our, that's one of kind of our guiding principles is that we want these resources to be accessible. So there are plenty of coaches out there that are pursuing their certification, they are very skilled coaches, they've gone through all the curriculum, all the mentor coaching, the practice, etc. And they need to accumulate some coaching hours to pursue their various levels of certification. So sometimes people will offer significantly reduced rates, and you're still getting great coaching. And sometimes they'll offer pro bono rates as well, or like a barter for for coaching. Generally, for an engagement, I would say, if it's spanning a few months, it can be anywhere from several $100 to several $1,000 for an individual client. And it really just depends on what the niche is, and, and kind of how much experience that coach has.

Alisa Tijerina 17:21

Okay, so just thinking about my coaching experience, I, I had I enjoyed talking to the person, I felt like we got along, but how do you know if that coach is right for you?

Erica D'Eramo 17:36

Yeah. There are a lot of kind of elements that you should be checking, when you first talk to a potential coach. A lot of coaches will offer sort of a free consultation just to see, is this a good match. And coaches have very different styles. And, you know, when you listen to different coaching sessions, as part of the training, sometimes you think like, Whoa, that's, that's quite abrasive, but it maybe works really well for that client, and they like it. And in other cases, it's, you think, oh, that's really just so gentle and kind of passive. And but again, if that works for the client, that's great. So it's really wonderful that there's so many different styles out there. What I would say, though, is don't take it for granted that if you find an experienced coach who's really well regarded that their style will be the right one for you. And if their style's not the right one for you, that's okay, too. So I'd say you know, meet with them, see what their style is, you can ask them, what's your style of coaching? And how do you hold people accountable? And if they're quite firm, and that's not what you want, then, you know, maybe tell them that that's not your style. And with your previous experiences of just having nice conversations, that tells me that, you know, you potentially weren't doing check ins to assess how you were progressing against the goals. So a lot of coaching involves, you know, how are we doing against our goals? Do we need to reevaluate? Are these goals still the right goals? Is this working for you? So, yeah, that's an important element.

Alisa Tijerina 19:06

So why did you pursue coaching?

Erica D'Eramo 19:09

Yeah, I pursued coaching because I really wanted to help people. And through the first few years of Two Piers, I offered coaching and I would have engagements with clients that I would, you know, provide them support, they would have issues that they were facing, and they would ask me for advice. And I thought that that was coaching. And I wanted to become better at that. So I pursued my certification through Coach Rice through Rice University. And what I discovered through that program was that what I was doing was probably more like mentoring and consulting, and not really the client driven coaching that can be so transformative. So we were certainly fixing problems and we were certainly and kind of addressing them and finding solutions. But it wasn't the type of coaching that we learn through through certification. And now that I've done that, and learned what coaching is and how transformative it can be, and been in the client seat so much through that process, I'm just even more committed to the practice of coaching. I'm such a believer in it. And I think I can really help people to enact the change that they're trying to enact through coaching.

Alisa Tijerina 20:31

Wow, Erica, this has been really helpful. Thank you for sharing and answering all my questions. I really appreciate it.

Erica D'Eramo 20:37

Yeah, these are great questions. I mean, you have these questions, and other people have these questions. And I certainly get asked a lot like, so what what exactly is coaching? And what type of coach are you, and fundamentally, like coaching, like we said, it's partnering with a client to achieve their goals. And the coach I am is the is, you know, the coach that my client needs in the moment. And, you know, the types of people who could benefit from coaching are pretty much everyone. So if you're looking for a coach, I recommend reaching out to us, Two Piers. And if we're not the right people for you, we can certainly try to hook you up with other really talented coaches. And the ICF website. So that's a great resource to find certified coaches and learn a bit more about their style and what their specialties are. So it's a great resource. Yeah. So thanks for joining us today Alisa and asking me all these great questions.

Alisa Tijerina 21:33

Thank you for having me.

Erica D'Eramo 21:34

And for anyone listening that wants to know more about Two Piers Consulting, we have plenty of information on our website at twopiersconsulting.com. And you can find us on the social media platforms at Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, and LinkedIn. And if you're enjoying the podcast and finding value in it, then please give us a rating and give us a review and we'll talk to you next time.

Productivity and ADHD

Photo courtesy of Unsplash.

Transcript below:

Erica D'Eramo 0:10

Hello, and welcome to the Two Piers podcast. Today's episode is all about distraction, productivity, and those of us working in the times of the coronavirus pandemic, and also with ADHD. Today, we have a guest joining us, Miranda Moore. She's a freelance writer and a journalist. And she's going to join us to discuss her shared experiences around ADHD, neurodiversity, and productivity.

Erica D'Eramo 0:48

So hi, Miranda, thanks for joining us.

Miranda Moore 0:51

Hi, Erica, thank you so much for having me.

Erica D'Eramo 0:53

So tell us a little bit about yourself.

Miranda Moore 0:56

Um, well, as you said, I'm a freelance writer and journalist. I'm currently living in South Florida in Palm Beach County with my fiance and our two cats. Um, prior to freelancing, I was a staff investigative reporter with a local newspaper down here. And then before becoming a journalist, I actually worked as a paralegal in federal prosecution and human rights prosecutions. And then before that, I was in the Peace Corps. So I've done a few things and lived a few places. And yeah, happy to be here.

Erica D'Eramo 1:28

Cool, that's quite a diversity of experience. And I think some of that will come into play as we talk about what works for us. And you and I have, you know, different type of work environments and different type of work schedules, and yet probably a lot of shared experiences around how we handle our workload productivity and doing that with ADHD. So I think my my first question for you is for you, specifically, how does ADHD manifest. Like, what does it look like? Particularly around productivity?

Miranda Moore 2:03

Yeah, um, so for me, my ADHD, it's sort of been like, I sort of bounce between these two extremes of periods of high productivity, to periods of low productivity. And so it tends to be very cyclical. How often that cycle lasts, or how often it repeats sort of just depends on whatever external circumstances I'm facing, whether it's like deadlines, or pressures, just dealing with stuff at home, or the rest of my workload or whatever. I've my biggest challenge has always been executive function tasks. So specifically working ahead on things and being able to plan ahead and sort of execute things in a reasonable way, I tend to wait till the very last minute, I'm a chronic procrastinator, for sure, and so I'm usually okay with prioritizing where I can prioritize pretty well, but it's just like, you know, putting pen to paper and actually getting stuff done. And actually doing the things that I've prioritized is what I struggle most with. And so, sometimes, like, for my bosses, it's been sort of confusing, because for big stuff, if I'm kind of like, Yeah, I know, this is a thing I have to do. But I'm not necessarily like, bought into it in a big way. It can be a struggle for them, because they're just like, okay, but you're just not doing anything versus when I'm really interested in something, that's the only thing I can do. And so that hyperfocus makes it look like I'm very engaged and passionate, or whatever. But, you know, I think a lot of bosses just didn't understand that that's just like a lack of balance in my brain, sort of where I go between these two extremes. And so the way I usually got stuff done that I didn't particularly want to do was just waiting till the last minute and then rushing to get it all done in this sort of like flurry of activity.

Erica D'Eramo 4:03

Yeah.

Miranda Moore 4:03

Yeah. And so it was easy to fudge when you're like, in an academic setting, like when you're in school, or whatever, like, I don't think a teacher really, you know, I think, Well, I think the the kind of product that you're producing, doesn't really make a difference, if at least for me, if I did it spread out through several weeks, or if I did it at the last minute, it would kind of look the same. But when you're in a work setting, like you can't fudge that anymore. Like it's just you can tell when it's just you haven't put in the work continuously. And so that's where I've struggled a lot.

Erica D'Eramo 4:35

Yeah, there's also the element of having to be seated in front of people being kind of watched while you need to be productive, or at least need to be pretending to be productive. And I know for me sitting in desk jobs, that was a lot of the struggle, in that I needed the pressure in order to be able to focus that I needed a short amount of time not to drag things out, and not to get distracted. So that pressure was really helpful for me. But then it also meant this dread of having to kind of fill that time up until pressure point...

Miranda Moore 5:10

Yeah.

Erica D'Eramo 5:11

...of and appear to be busy when I knew that this wasn't going to be my best work because I wasn't super engaged, or if you know enthusiastic about it, I wasn't hyper focused. And I wasn't in crunch time yet. And I, I always thought it was interesting that I would describe myself and you know, even my mother would describe me as working really well under pressure, and that I thrive under pressure. And I'm realizing now that was really just my ADHD manifesting even in childhood, you know, pulling all nighters in middle school or high school to get stuff done. And it was because I sort of needed that pressure to focus.

Miranda Moore 5:50

Yeah, same. Same with me, and that with me, that sort of all or nothing, like I'm either working nonstop, or I'm not working at all, it just leads to this, like, burnout to me. So for me, it's like, it's not necessarily that I'm doing nothing, it's just like, I almost need recovery time, a little bit. And so it's been a struggle for me to, to approach work in a more balanced way, where you're not just like kind of in just a panic state all the time just to get stuff done.

Erica D'Eramo 6:23

Yeah.

Miranda Moore 6:23

Yeah. And another way that like ADHD really manifests for me is with my sleep cycle, like, I know that the ADHD and sleep cycle is, you know, that sort of, a lot of people struggle with both of those things. And for, like, delayed sleep phase can be a common symptom of ADHD. And that's, that is the case for me. And so kind of my natural work hours are like much later in the day, like, if it were up to me, rather than working like a nine to five, I would work like two to 10. Like that would be my preference. And so but every job I've ever had sort of forced me into this nine to five or eight to five kind of schedule. And but if my brain just doesn't shut down, in order to get to sleep in time, or if my brain just can't start working until much later than, like, several hours after I'm at work, it's just I have several hours at work where I'm not productive, either because I'm sleep deprived, or, because like, my brain is just not kicking off until much later in the day. And so, you know, but then, if I am working, like, you know, my brain finally does start working later in the day, I start, I get started on something, and I don't want to stop by five o'clock or whatever. And so because it's only like three or four hours of productive time, by the time everybody's going home. So a lot of times, I would just sit through and keep working almost like a kind of penance or whatever, it's because I didn't feel like I was getting enough done earlier in the day. And so yeah, a lot of times I would put in 12 hour days, it's not like it would be 12 hours of solid work, but it would be 12 hours of physically being there. Just to be able to get everything done that other folks, I feel like were getting done in in eight hours. But it just took me a lot longer just to get my brain to catch up with the daily schedule.

Erica D'Eramo 8:15

Yeah. I, I feel like there have been multiple studies now conducted on how society views, morning people versus evening people and how hard wired our brains are actually for when we are most productive. And so you can kind of force us into being morning people. If we're not, but we just that'll never, that's sort of hardwired into our chemistry in some ways. For for some people, I think there's it's obviously a distribution. But typically, at least in Western society, that morning, that morning Lark, you know, the early bird gets the worm, there's all these. There's all this kind of morality around, getting up early and being productive early and showing up in the office early. Even if you leave, you know, even if you leave at three o'clock in the afternoon, if you got in early, then that sort of is an indicator that you're one of the productive people. And I was the same way in that I would get in early but it would take me a long time to ramp up my productivity. I would get in early if I was forced to but not kind of of my own volition. But then I would usually hit my stride right as everyone else was packing up in the office. And I would then stay way past dinnertime sometimes till like eight o'clock you're the only person in the office but you're really kind of finally getting that meatier part done or I would even just take the work home and do it at home. So it looked like I was putting in long hours but it was really just around my peak hitting much later in the day for me. And that wasn't always an option. You know, a lot of the a lot of the folks that listen to this podcast actually are working in industries that have no flexibility around your sleep schedule. So either, you know, 12 hour shifts from 6am to 6pm. Or sometimes people are working, you know, weird, wonky shifts like noon to midnight. And I think that that can be really challenging, especially pre ADHD diagnosis, you know, if people have this have this sort of tendency in the background and haven't acknowledged it, then it just shows up as like sleeping through your alarm, or being really groggy and beating yourself up about it.

Miranda Moore 10:42

Yeah, I felt like a lot of, you know, insecurity around, like, you know, if I get to work late, just because I couldn't get myself up or, you know, whatever, I just wasn't getting enough sleep. And eventually, that would catch up with me and lead to kind of prolonged periods of like, maybe I was physically there, but I just mentally wasn't there. And so yeah, it was a lot of years of beating myself up and criticizing myself. And you know, other people can do this, why can't I? You know, and it really wasn't until I got my ADHD diagnosis. And I realized that was a part of it, that a lot of the light bulbs went off for me. And so my approach since then, since finding out has been sort of, you know, let's not like I have the flexibility, thankfully, to just not, you know, I was able to create my own work schedule, and able to do those things that sort of lean into my brain chemistry more than work against it. I, you know, I'm lucky that I no longer have to work a set schedule, if I decide not to, you know, rather than trying to artificially force myself into a schedule that just does not work with my brain, that being able to just appreciate it and go with it, and kind of let my brain do the like, lead the way a little bit in terms of when I work and how long I work. And...

Erica D'Eramo 12:08

Yeah.

Miranda Moore 12:09

That's that's helped me just mentally just in terms of my emotional health as well.

Erica D'Eramo 12:13

Yeah, I mean, when I finally had someone recommend to me, the book Delivered From Distraction. And I, they said, you know, you should probably read this, some of the things that you're talking to me about some of the things you've been struggling with, you might actually have ADHD, and I thought, No, I, that doesn't, I was never hyperactive, never had the H. That doesn't, probably doesn't sound like me. I went through engineering school, I made through engineering school. And, and then I read the book. And I, I think, you know, I've talked to you about this, that I literally started crying because I realized that all of this emotional energy I'd put into beating myself up for years for decades, through my childhood, my formative years, because I couldn't get up early because I couldn't stay focused, because I was super forgetful. All these little moral digs that I would give myself, were actually a part of this very complex human brain that that came with the bright sides as well that I would were some of my favorite parts about myself that I would never want to give up. And that just that realization of, you don't like this piece about yourself. And yet, it's tied to this other piece of you that you absolutely love about yourself, would you want to give them both up if you could, and I realized, like, no, I absolutely wouldn't. And it kind of just allowed me to put down this weight of judgment that I kept having against myself, and then just start acting logically, like, like you said, leaning into it in that not not fighting those natural tendencies and just creating the structure around them in my life, that would allow me to be most effective. So part of that wasn't feasible at the time I was working when I had that realization, I was working one of those kind of 6am to 6pm jobs offshore 28 day hitches and really struggling. I mean, that's why it pushed me to the point of finally saying, like, Okay, I need some help Let me read this book. But at that point, I decided I am going to set it as a goal to set my own hours one day, and that's how, you know, that's how I started working towards starting my own business and, and having a bit more say over how I spend my time when I spend it where I spend it where I put my energy.

Miranda Moore 14:48

Yeah, I I didn't necessarily set out to decide that, you know, I just want to pick my own hours and I want to, you know, set my own kind of work patterns and things. I fell into it because I was actually I mean, if I don't know, if anyone listening like pays attention to, like the news media industry, in the newspaper industry specifically, it's in kind of a volatile place in terms of its own kind of ability to exist at all. And so at the very start of the pandemic, not because of the pandemic, but just at the beginning of it, I my job was eliminated, it was because of a corporate merger didn't have anything to do with the pandemic is just, it was just weird timing. And so my job was eliminated. And then I went from, like, you know, being at the office 12 hours a day to all of a sudden, like I, you know, have no structure whatsoever. And I always responded, I always found that I needed external structure, just because of my inability to stay organized, kind of and stay on top of my, I needed those external pressures for the dopamine to like, like, motivate me to get anything done. But without that, I really had to do a lot of soul searching. And that was actually when I got my diagnosis was a couple months after I was laid off. And I was, you know, kind of looking at different treatment options. I had suspected for years, but sort of got like, went to get the official diagnosis. And that sort of in between time after I got laid off, and I was just taking time to figure out what I wanted, you know, and even is this an industry, the news industry that I even want to be a part of, because it chews people up and spits them out and kind of ruthlessly and I feel like that's, there's a lot of talk right now in the journalism industry at large about burnout. And a lot of it's because, you know, people have been reporting on the pandemic, and they've been reporting from home and they're, you know, there's a lot of trauma and, you know, there's so many hours they're putting in, but burnout was a problem before. And it's, it's especially difficult when you're neurodivergent. Because I feel like so many of these challenges that journalists are talking about, like, if it's hell for neurotypical people, what do you think it is for people who operate on a burnout cycle, like their brains just do that, you know? And so, that's one reason like I wanted to come on this podcast was just to, you know, so we could get out there, like, for other journalists, who may also be struggling with this, even beyond the normal burnout cycle that's sort of expected isn't and encouraged, as a part of the news industry, not that that's healthy, but you know, it is what it is. Um, and so I wanted to at least have the, you know, put the awareness out there that, like, there are other journalists who, you know, have ADHD and all of the challenges you may be facing are not, you, and it's both of this industry, but it's also just, I don't know, for those of us who are prone to burnout cycles anyway, this industry is just particularly harsh. And so I found that freelancing, where I can create my own hours, and I have the freedom to take breaks if I need to, I don't need to, like get approval, because my staff job, I had 15 days period, that was sick leave and personal leave, that was all I got for an entire year. And I read a study that like, I think it was based in Australia, but still, I don't see why it wouldn't be applicable, where it's like people with ADHD tend to take I thought it was like 17 more days off per year than their neurotypical counterparts. And I'm like, well, that's my entire leave allowance. That's vacations. It's sick leave, that's everything that I was allowed. And so but this is, you know, this is practice and it's allowed. And I think that a lot of my being able to decouple like, productivity expectations, in like, a capitalist sense, like in sort of a cutthroat, sort of, you know, you have to meet these impossible expectations, or you're not going to have a job anymore, kind of this way of thinking, like decoupling myself from that has been, like, as beneficial as an ADHD diagnosis, honestly. So in terms of, of being able to recreate balance my life again.

Erica D'Eramo 19:19

Yeah, I mean, especially in America I feel like we have a very interesting relationship with sort of that grind culture. And it's not it's not just America, it shows up in there are quite a few countries that celebrate and cultures that celebrate sort of that burnout, that grind.

Miranda Moore 19:41

It's almost like a moral thing, like, it's a symbol of, of, like piety, or like morality or something that you've worked yourself to the bone and I'm like, but for what, like, newspaper reporters are, like, terribly paid like, it's, you know, I mean, I was one of the highest paid people in my newsroom, my editor said, but I was still like making less than what like a public school teacher would make. You know, and it's just like the the wages are so suppressed for for journalists. And yet, you're still expected to kill yourself every day and like, experience trauma and internalize that, and they only give you like 15 days off a year. And then it's just like, so it's impossible. My brain was so overloaded the entire time, I worked in a staff job, and I just don't think now that I'm freelancing, and I'm able to kind of create my own schedule and hours. And, you know, it's, I don't think I I'm not sure I could ever go back to a staff job, honestly.

Erica D'Eramo 20:37

Yeah.

Miranda Moore 20:37

And I'm very lucky that I have the privilege to be able to do that. And it is, you know, I need to admit the privilege, I feel like because...

Miranda Moore 20:45

Yeah.

Miranda Moore 20:46

...yeah, like, not everyone works in an industry where they can do that. And not everyone has the freedom and I'm like, I have a partner who makes enough to support both of us. And so that's if I didn't have that, I'd probably be still be looking for a staff job and, and kind of still living that burnout cycle, just to make ends meet, but I'm very lucky that, that I have the privilege to be able to create my own work schedule. So.

Erica D'Eramo 21:13

Yeah, my privilege absolutely has allowed me to go out and do what I'm passionate about, regardless of whether it is financially stable or not. So the combination of having worked in an in an industry that paid very well, for many years, and having a partner who's fully employed has enabled me to kind of do this thing that I'm really passionate about, and also allows me to choose my own hours. So one element that I found, as I transitioned into kind of defining my own work hours, my own objectives was that I tend to my one of my biggest challenges right now is just that I tend to want to do everything at once. And I have so many different ideas that pop in my head. And I am so inspired about different things. And there's just this very non linear connection between it all and it's kind of putting, taking all that and forcing it into some sort of hopper or routine and putting structure around it so that I'm not just kind of overwhelmed by all the things I'm trying to do at once. That's been that's been a growth, especially with the pandemic. And, you know, we moved, I uprooted us and took out all of the structure and all of the supports that I had in my life. And we were staying in a hotel room for several months. And I kind of had this moment in February, where it all just became a bit too much. And that was the inspiration for why I wanted to record this podcast episode and have you on, because at that point, it was like I was just trying to do way too much. And it was kind of all hitting this bottleneck of how much I could execute. And I had to have a bit of an intervention with myself so that I could at least be effective.

Miranda Moore 23:21

Yeah, it was tough like because once I was laid off, and then I sort of did a lot of soul searching and decided that you know, I wanted to freelance I didn't want to go back to a staff job. We had to move because environment is really a big trigger for my distractibility, like a newsrooms are very open work environments. And so there's always like, there's always breaking news, there's always, you know, some big story happening and a lot of people running around. And so it was tough to be productive in the office. But then when I was at home like we, we because we relocated down here from my job, and then my fiance at that time transitioned to fully remote work back then when we moved. And so we got our apartment where it's it was, he had his office where he could close the door, but then everything else was shared living space. And then when I was all of a sudden working from home, it was impossible. I had like the two cats are climbing all over me and like whatever he was coming in and out and it was just and for me environment is just, I have to have, I have to be able to close the door. Like if I'm really going to be productive. Like, even in the newsroom, I would find a huddle room, like we have these little meeting rooms. Every time it was available, I would be in there. Because I just I needed to shut the door and I had no door to shut. And so we just decided that like if I'm going to do this as a freelancer, we needed a bigger place. And so we had to find a place where you know, and again, it's another thing of privilege where I just, you know, I'm lucky that I'm able to do that not everybody can but uh you know and so we found a place where I thankfully can close the door and I've found I'm able to do a lot more and produce more work and contribute more to the, you know, to the household and everything. And it's just it's, yeah, so it's been worth it. It's but it's a trade off, you know, like, yes, my productivity is increased, but it's also like, at a cost.

Erica D'Eramo 25:18

Yeah.

Miranda Moore 25:18

You know. For me, it's worth it because I love what I do.

Erica D'Eramo 25:21

Yeah. Yeah, at the time we changing environment, you know, we were trying to move into a house. So there was no immediate like relief, aside from going and sitting in my car. There was no, like, immediate relief. But what I did do that was helpful was I sort of reimplemented some of the processes and systems that I, I used, really, when I back when I worked offshore, and I didn't have any flexibility, there was just way too much to do. And there was no, like, you couldn't just go home for the evening and clear your head. There, you had to take a helicopter to get back to shore. So I just created these sort of ways of prioritizing and del... and rationing out my time. That took the buffet element out of it. So you mentioned executive function, like for me this start looking at that to do list and kind of just skimming and saying, Oh, this is the shiny, sparkly thing, that's the thing I'm going to pick to work on. That is not the most efficient way to get things done. And you end up well, at least for me, I end up doing all the things that I enjoy, and none of the things that are kind of more difficult or longer. So I put, you know, typical engineering way I put a spreadsheet together and I had like a little algorithm and I would rank things based on how important they were and how much effort they would take. And that way, it was more of like a set course meal. So when I showed up in the morning, these were the top five things that I needed to do. And I there was no thought into like, oh, what looks prettiest, to me, what looks most exciting it was this is test number one, because that has the most points. And then at the end of the day, I you know, it gamified it so that I would be rewarded with those points. So if I did an activity that took me like three hours, which is kind of nauseating, even to think about sitting and doing something for three hours straight, that I'm not into, then I'd at least get some little like meaningless reward out of it. And that was really helpful. And so I found myself in February, kind of dusting off those spreadsheets and putting them back to use just to take some of the noise out of it for me.

Miranda Moore 27:36

Yeah, one thing that I've I've always really liked lists, and I find that if I try to gamify something, it becomes a perfectionism thing, like I then have to like achieve. Yeah, I've tried that before. I have tried that before. But then it becomes a perfectionism thing, and then I have to get perfect. And if I don't, I'm like, Well, I'm just failing altogether like my perfectionism I can't gamify stuff. And then also, if there's like a big barrier to like, okay, like, if I'm going to organize my thoughts, but then that whole process sort of takes it out of me. And all of like the energy and focus I had to ration then went into just preparing to do the work rather than doing the work, like and so if it's a kind of a big load up front, like that's a non starter for me, personally. So just what I usually do is I try to preempt my focus by doing stuff like so the end of the week, like I actually started this when I was a paralegal at at the Justice Department in Washington, it would be every Friday before I went home, I would put together a list of everything I knew I had to do the next week, and then at the end of every day, I would reassess and be like okay, well what got done, what didn't get done, what got thrown on my plate that wasn't there before that I now have to incorporate and then just at the end of the day, I would reassess for the next day and so I found that when I could go in and get started um already knowing what I had to do. That was a lot easier that that's what helped me more than anything because like I tried to and I researched like all these really like you know fancy ways of like how you be you know, understand and prioritize and encourage like motivate yourself in all of this and I just found that I got so hyper focused on that process that it took all the wind out of my sails for focusing on the actual work so and also if it's like something where there's a big barrier like I don't know I try this because I a lot of another thing too with my ADHD is my kind of just every day life adulting stuff suffers sometimes like when I get so into work, like I find it challenging to like, you know, eat well, or make sure I'm making time to like, for activity and that kind of thing. And those kind of daily things that do impact your productivity, but maybe not in like an immediate, sort of immediate reward kind of way. And so, but I found that if I like, buy into systems or whatever, like I tried, you know, like meal planning, and like all of that, if I do anything super rigid, and I, because there's always something that's going to get in the way, it doesn't matter if you have ADHD or not, life is always gonna get in the way, and you're never going to be able to keep it up perfectly. But I find the second that I falter a little bit, I'm like, throw the whole thing away, I can't do it anymore. And so just when I sort of just keeping it really simple in terms of like developing the list before I have to do the list, helps me and then also just not putting so much into the beforehand also helps me too, just because otherwise I feel like I'm setting myself up to fail a little bit. I don't know.

Erica D'Eramo 31:04

Yeah, that's one of the reasons I really want didn't want to just do this episode on my own, because there is no single way that ADHD manifests. And while we have some similar stories, or experiences or tools or revelations, in some ways, it's going to be really different. I mean, I'm not gonna say I didn't spend like many hours fine tuning that algorithm. But I really do enjoy that. And so that was like my little treat that I got to give myself. Um, but yeah, I I, what you were describing about the the to do list, I found that bullet journals were really helpful for me, and like, not the fancy stuff. But just like literally no book that just helps me. And I'm not always really good about. I mean, I don't know when the last time is that I numbered my pages. Actually. I haven't updated my index recently. But it's there for me to do it if I want to. And so yeah, what are I mean, what are some of the tools that you have found?

Miranda Moore 32:10

Um, when I found bullet journaling, it was like a revelation was very helpful. And then I wasn't, I believe, I don't want to like to say something like false, I haven't confirmed it. But like, I heard that the person who developed it also has ADHD, and that's why he developed it. And so I was like, well, this makes sense, because it works for an ADHD brain. But then, like, you know, I started getting into it. And I started, like, you know, I made the mistake of looking at Pinterest to look at, like, oh what are some fun ways you can like bullet journal and make it effective. And it was like immediate imposter syndrome, like immediate, like, I am not that creative. I'm not that talented, I can never make something like that work for me, whatever. And then I'm just like, well, what am I like, you know, just ignore that. And I had to remind myself to put on the blinders. And like, just think about, you know, you're literally just doing this to organize your stuff to do. And so, when I am able to kind of compartmentalize that, then I found the bullet journal works really, really well for me.

Erica D'Eramo 33:10

Yeah.

Miranda Moore 33:10

One thing that like when I was in grad school, because in between being a paralegal and becoming a journalist, I went back to J school. And just like, grad school is just so like, it is sensory overload. So it's like really difficult for your ADHD. But at the same time, everything is so contained, and compartmentalized that, like, it works well with my ADHD. So I both hated and loved grad school at the same time. But the only thing I found that worked, Target sold these like huge, like, calendars, these desk planners. And there was like a specific format that they had. And I loved that and I haven't found it since but like that planner just fit, it happened to overlap with like, when I was in grad school was perfect. It was like the days of the week on one side. It was just a big open square, and I could put whatever I wanted to in there. And then just like a blank notebook sheet on the other where it could put like kind of all of the lists and expand on like the things I would write in the day square and like whatever. And that was the like, I love that format. I haven't been able to find it since.

Erica D'Eramo 34:13

Yeah.

Miranda Moore 34:14

So I've replicated that just in bullet journals.

Erica D'Eramo 34:17

Yeah. I, I don't you I mean, I have seen kind of the bullet journals that are used sort of as, I don't know, like vision boards, sort of, and sketching and all that and I, similarly to you, I just kind of, it's a great way for me to just get down whatever I need to get down out of my brain without worrying too much about like, is it going in the right spot. It's fine, flip a page, put a title and start writing and it's okay. And it can pass that and it's flexible.

Miranda Moore 34:53

I keep asking myself I'm like who're you trying to impress with this bullet journal like you just need to get stuff done. You don't need to to impress anyone else, no one's looking at it, no one's judging it in an art competition like it's again, the perfectionism thing and the all or nothing thing that that kind of gets the best of me with my ADHD is is you know, I just in my brain have the subconscious, like I have to do it all or absolutely nothing. And that's kind of how I started with the bullet journal. But then eventually, when I just kind of took it back to like the bare minimum it was it was able to work for me.

Erica D'Eramo 35:25

Yeah. I mean, there's a lot. There's a lot in what you just said around perfectionism. And it's interesting, I don't know, if you look at ADHD, and gender, to what extent that perfectionism is sort of shows up a lot with women, maybe more so than men. But I just know that a lot of the women that I know that also deal with ADHD also are perfectionists, and it ties into procrastination, it ties into negative self talk. And so compassion seems to be one thing I'm really trying to focus on, like self compassion, being kind to myself, like that growth mindset of what's, what's the point here, like, there's, there's value in failing, there's value in growth. So yeah, I'm trying to focus on self compassion. And that's like, my, that's the thing I try to focus on, when I get hyper fixated on either perfectionism or, or the spiral of, you know, I've made a mistake, or I've messed something up and just moving on. Yeah, not not expending too much energy on it.

Miranda Moore 36:40

I went. So I was only diagnosed with ADHD within the last year. But I have spent like a lot of years trying to get various forms of psychiatric treatment for, you know, anxiety and depression or whatever. And so I did a lot of I did several years of just cognitive behavioral therapy with a therapist, and at the time, it was for anxiety, and then they kind of transitioned into depression. But I've found that since I've had like, the ADHD diagnosis, and I'm able to identify the habits that I was very critical of myself for, now knowing that they're part of ADHD, I'm actually able to I'm much better now that I'm a few years out of that therapy. I'm much better now about applying those lessons whenever I find myself struggling with something that I could attribute to the ADHD, like, whether it's procrastination, or I'm running late, or I just that's executive functioning, I just forget, or it's like poor working memory or whatever, I have found that I'm much more forgiving, and but it literally took knowing the diagnosis and knowing the reason for me to be able to put those into practice, because I don't know if I subconsciously knew that the diagnosis wasn't complete, or what but it was. Yeah. And so all those years of therapy are finally paying off after, you know, but but it literally took that label for me to understand not that I not that I use ADHD as an excuse, but it is an explanation.

Erica D'Eramo 38:12

Right. I, I totally agree with that. Like I really, that really resonates with me, because let's see, I was probably mid 30s, I guess mid to, yeah mid 30s. And for me, it just it took the it took like the good bad element out of some of my behaviors, and just made it much more like a not like a machine. But for my engineer brain, actually, that kind of is how I was able to look at it, right. And I love to cook. So cooking in the kitchen. I just started to think of my brain like, hey, I've got this one knife that is really good for this one job. And I've got another knife that is really good for another type of job. And that's okay they're, I don't judge the knives like this knife is better than this knife. Like they do different things well, and they can do those other things. They just don't do them as well. And it just became how do I work around this and set things up so that I can be more effective. Having a key that or having a hook that I put my keys on the same key, the same hook every single day, every single time has become something you would think it's so little right but that those little things that you realize when you have ADHD that they can make your life so much better so that every time you're trying to get out the door, you're not frantically searching for your keys, having the same place for my passport every single time. And if it's not there, I start to freak out and panic because I just know how important that is. And other people are like you'll find it you'll find it and for me that structure has become really important and I don't know why it took three and a half decades to figure out that hook for my keys was as valuable in my life as it was.

Miranda Moore 40:04

My mom used to tell me when I was growing up, you know, she, it's just used to be like, because I was super messy as a kid. And so she would just say, like, you know, a place for everything and everything in its place and like I can hear her voice in my head every time I'm like, the house is a disaster. I just like I can't find anything like I just don't have the kind of cognitive real estate to dedicate to, to anything's location. That, yeah, I hear her voice in my head when, when I have those moments. But yeah, it's just simple things like that. That like, it sometimes takes, at least me, it also takes me a while to sometimes come to that conclusion. But like, the real estate it frees. So you're just not constantly like, it's just, it helps my creative process a lot.

Erica D'Eramo 40:51

Yeah, I had always characterize myself as a messy person. And I, that has really changed over the years in that mess will accumulate around me. But I've recognized that for me mess is a big hindrance for me getting stuff done, it just creates like a static in my brain, that that's not good. So I'm trying to think when I finally 20, it was around 2012, I think I hired a professional organizer to come help me unpack boxes. And I just thought like, this is looming, I'm by myself, I'm on my own, I need help. So I hired an organizer. And I'm going to give a shout out to The Clutter Fairy in Houston, because she understands a lot about neurodivergent folks, particularly ADHD, and how to how to work together. And it was some of the best investment I've ever made in my life was having an organizer come and help me create a place for everything. And every time I would get overwhelmed, or like, you know, going through boxes of high school memorabilia or whatever, and I'd get like hyper focus, there was somebody there to gently and compassionately kind of get me back on track and set intervals and do all those things like set manageable goals. And it really paid dividends just like continuously. And so if there's anyone who is thinking about it, definitely recommend looking into it. If you've got the funds to spend an organ... like a professional organizer, interview them make sure that it's a good match. But for me, um having somebody who understood how ADHD worked, and could help me build a build my environment to work with my brain it was just invaluable.

Miranda Moore 42:44

Yeah, I don't like I've always really enjoyed organizing, I've always been good at it. I just don't ever follow through. And so, but whenever it's just me, like, if I had like an office where I can close the door, it's just like, you know, I lived by myself or whatever, it wasn't a big deal, like, you know, but it was when, yeah, my fiance and I moved in together, and he, you know, all of a sudden, I had this other variable, and he had his own ways of doing things that, you know, we had a lot of talks about how, like, No, I just need to create these organizational systems. And then, you know, I'll be okay and like how crucial that was just to my well being. And now it's, it's funny, because, like, we just moved a few months ago into this place, and he, you know, I put in a lot of time just kind of organize everything, like, you know, to exactly where it should go. And then I'm terrible at following up, but he's really good about following up. But he was also like, this time around he was also, this is like the third place I think we've been in since we moved in together. And he's now figured out that like, he'll just kind of pay attention to where I put things and then if I forget, you know, or whatever he forgets and he'll just, he'll later go back and like kind of help maintain that and I don't have to ask him to do it. I'm just like, it's such like a like a lift off of like my shoulders or whatever. And yeah, but having a partner who sort of intuitively understands that has been like a godsend. We had to have like a couple of like very direct like, you know, when we were moving like okay, no, I need systems like for things to go in certain places. And that is romantic because before he was just like a bachelor I think you know, he had like a pretty minimal sort of setup. He is definitely like a minimalist, I'm not in any way I'm definitely kind of a maximalist.

Erica D'Eramo 44:32

Laughing because this sounds very similar to my husband and I.

Miranda Moore 44:36

And so but he's, he's been very adaptable at you know, kind of adapting to my, my, my need for organization and all of the stuff that has to be organized. He's been very adaptable and understanding and patient about falling into that, but yeah.

Erica D'Eramo 44:56

Yeah, it's interesting now that I'm thinking now that we're in the process of unpacking boxes in a new house that has like far less storage space to work with, I'm realizing too that my perfectionism is certainly coming into play that I need to have the perfect setup, especially when it comes to things like pantries and kitchen where I spent a lot of time. That is my pastime that I have is cooking. And so the idea of just like putting things on shelves, is I can't, I can't actually handle that it has to have a system to it. Because I know that I will be dependent on that system working going forward, like, I know that it's gotta make sense where the flour goes, and it can't be on the other side from what like the baking soda is. So that part, getting over that hump of like, it has to be the perfect system. That's where I'm at right now in my unpacking phase.

Miranda Moore 45:51

Part of me having my own office is not just for the writing, which is obviously really important. But it's also like, my hobbies are just very stuff oriented, like I sew I sew a lot of my own clothes. And so that just requires a lot of equipment and fabric and, you know, just materials and, and so it was I was sort of sharing space with my fiance's office, in the last place we lived in so it was like, you know, if I wanted to sit down and sew or whatever it absolutely could not be at the same time he was working. And you know, he teaches courses in addition to like, his day job, and so in those are online, and so there's definitely times when we, you know, needed the space at the same time, and it was just kind of frustrating to deal with at the time. But yeah, I'm also a big reader. And so I have a lot of books, and those just need a place to go. And they need to be organized in exactly the way that I want them to be organized and like fiance doesn't get it, he accepts it. You know, but but...

Erica D'Eramo 46:47

Yeah

Miranda Moore 46:48

I needed like the, I needed to take a lot of time and just develop this whole systems. But it's, it's, it's amazing what it's done for my just to clear my head to be able to make the space for the creative work that goes into into writing and reporting.

Erica D'Eramo 47:05

Yeah, I mean, it's funny, right? Because there's this idea that's easy to buy into that a lot of us are sloppy, or messy or lazy or disorganized. And yet, and yet, in a, in a way, it's kind of like an all or nothing, maybe that's, that's coming into play with some of that. Because if you look at certain elements of my life, they are just like hyper organized. And very, I, the lazy label was always interesting to me, because I've always felt lazy. And then at the same time, you know, I'm somebody who will work through the night on something, if it's important, needs to get done, will push through and do whatever it takes. So reconciling that kind of the, the light side, and the dark side has been, I don't know, complicated, probably a lifelong journey.

Miranda Moore 48:02

Yeah, I haven't figured out the answer either. Like, but but I get exactly what you're saying. Yeah.

Erica D'Eramo 48:07

Yeah. So you know, in terms of the pandemic, how is that you think affected any of this for you, you sort of talked about some of it with moving house, but a lot of that sounds like it wasn't directly related to the pandemic necessarily.

Miranda Moore 48:24

It was, well, it was just strange, because in my case, it was like, everything happened at the same time, but it wasn't necessarily caused by it. Like I know, like, just about every well a lot of people who were able to work from home then started working from home at the start of the pandemic, but it's like, I went from having a job to just having no job. And so it was weird, because I've always been very, like I've always needed that sort of, or not that I've always needed, I've always relied on the external pressure of, you know, work schedule, or bosses or whatever, to kind of organize my thoughts when I was unable to organize them myself. And without that, and being sort of left to my own devices, it was very much a struggle. I didn't know, like, if, if I wanted to remain in kind of the journalism news media industry, or if I wanted to try to transition to something else, because, you know, I just I put a lot of thought into that. And then I also was like, well, okay, I just love writing and I love journalism, and I love story craft and reporting and always learning something new. And so it's the one profession I've had that I've actually stuck with, because you know, I've done a few different things. It was always kind of looking for something that I didn't have and journalism is finally the one thing that it can change but also it is a process that I enjoy and can stick with long term. And, but the topic is always different. So it feeds that part of my brain that always needs something new. But I just the staff job just wasn't going to be healthy anymore in this environment that's really hostile to the journalist, the individual journalist, you know, the, I try to demarcate, there's like the industry and there's the practice. And so, the practice, the profession of journalism, I love with every ounce of my being, the industry is awful for people generally, for neurotypical people, it is especially awful for neurodivergent people and people with ADHD like me. And so my compromises was just like, well, how can I still do the profession without having to be a part of the industry, and you're never going to be fully, you know, away from the industry, but I just took the time to decide that, you know, freelancing was just the compromise, I was gonna have to make, just for my own mental health, and my emotional health, to be able to create an employment option that worked with my brain, and I, you know, I'm not saying I'm glad I was laid off, like, I'm still really bitter about it, but I, I, you know, at least I'm thankful for the opportunity to be able to reassess that, and I'm not sure I would have been, I'm not sure I would have gotten off the train on my own. And so the fact that I was forced off, yeah, but also like, so, you know, as a writer, and like a creative, like, I want to some, like, a lot of times when I want to work, and this is especially the just back to environment. This is especially the case, when we had our smaller place, and I didn't have my own dedicated space to work from, like, the before times, I would just like go to a coffee shop, like, you know, coffee shops are where a lot of writers meet each other, and like, other creatives meet each other. And, you know, and even in the little town we were living in before, there's a pretty big creative community, and you know, I'd be able to meet people like that, but all of that shut down. It just wasn't, you know, it wasn't safe anymore. And so for a lot of creatives and freelance creatives who rely on those informal spaces, you know, to collaborate and to meet each other and to get inspiration. You know, that's been taken away. And so we've had to find a lot of those online, which, you know, it isn't the same, but at least it's something and so yeah, so a lot of those spaces have moved online, and I've had to, to seek those out, which is also, you know, made it sort of easier to connect in a way because you can also, it's not just local writers, you can connect with people from all around the world. And, and so, yeah, just the environment and the network, and the way that they're intertwined has has changed a lot for writers. And other creatives.

Erica D'Eramo 53:00

Yeah. That informal space is also important for anyone doing kind of consulting or for, you know, just entrepreneurs, solopreneurs, that shared workspace environment can be really valuable. And not having access to that has been challenging. For me, for sure, and I haven't really been able to replicate that online yet. There's certainly communities there's like, you know, message boards, and chats, and all sorts of stuff that you can get involved in. But for me, as an introvert, even I really used to enjoy just going to a coffee shop and sitting amongst people, not even necessarily talking, but it just gave me a chance to kind of be in my head, but not be super alone. And, and being out of the house in it in a coffee shop also made me focus. Because like, this is work time. And when I'm done, and I pay my bill, or I get my last cup of coffee, and I leave, then work is done. And it kind of demarcated that for me. And so that's been more challenging. When it's in your bedroom, or it's, you know, in your kitchen...

Miranda Moore 54:17

Yeah.

Erica D'Eramo 54:18

...that goes away. It bleeds together.

Miranda Moore 54:20

For me with like, again, it gets into the all or nothingness to like, you know, I need to be able to compartmentalize, I need to know when it's this or that, because my brain has a really hard time shutting that off. And yeah, when everyone went inside, and never, you know, didn't come out again for a very long time like that became challenging, just that need to compartmentalize and being unable to do so because of physical constraints.

Erica D'Eramo 54:48

Yeah. So what type of kind of structures or environments or support have you found most helpful? Well, we kind of discussed this a little bit so far, but...

Miranda Moore 55:01

Um, I will say though that like before, any kind of like, you know, sort of solution or whatever therapy or anything like that could be effective for me, I had to regulate my brain chemistry, like through medical interventions, I had to find a psychiatrist, I had to get on ADHD medication. For me, that was the thing that like, made the difference between struggling to figure out what I wanted to do with my life, and like taking active steps towards like building a freelance career. Like, so for me, it was like, I had to get medical help, I had to find a psychiatrist. And I struggled a little bit at the beginning, because like, I landed on a psychiatrist, he said, he specializes in ADHD, and I thought that his diagnosis was very thorough. But his treatment was very inflexible, like, you know, and so like, the medications didn't work for me, he didn't seem very willing to, like adjust them. And so I just stopped calling his office and went through a few other, you know, kind of explored options and whatever and eventually stumbled upon, I don't know if it was like, the the algorithm found me like the the robots found me or whatever. But I found in my Instagram feed an advertisement for like a nationwide sort of telehealth provider for ADHD. I was like, eh, what do I got to lose, I can at least try them. And if it doesn't work out, then it doesn't work out and whatever. But I actually re... Actually, I saw that one of the nurse practitioners from the practice I was at before that I didn't like was affiliated with them. And so I actually made sure to reach out to them before I made the appointment. I was like, you know, I know that like this person works with you guys. I just don't want to work with that person I've already had an experience with them, it wasn't my favorite, I'd really rather have someone else. And they actually put me partnered me with, I think she's like a pretty senior kind of within the organization, nurse practitioner who has been brilliant, I adore her. And like, she really listens, and she takes into account sort of all of my individual quirks and, and needs and things. And so and we've, it's taken a few months, but I think we finally got on a regimen that has been working for me. And so but she was really flexible. And that was like the big thing is I wanted a provider who would listen in and adjust and change course if we needed to. And she's been that. So once I got my brain chemistry sort of evened out, then everything else, like I was able to, you know, get back into sort of being more proactive rather than responsive. Like I feel like in the past where I had a structure to rely on, I was very responsive to demands as they were placed on me. Whereas as a freelancer, I have to be very proactive. And so it sort of quieted my brain enough to where I'm able to do that.

Erica D'Eramo 57:54

Yeah. I mean, finding a provider that you trust, and is willing to work with you and, and be flexible seems really key.

Miranda Moore 58:04

Yeah.

Erica D'Eramo 58:05

Like really, really important. And, again, this is coming from privilege in some ways, not everyone has choices, or can shop around. But that's been my experience as well. That having someone who listens to me takes my, my concerns my observations seriously. There is just such a power differential between doctor and patient. There's an informa... information differential. And then also, we know that when women present symptoms, they're not taken seriously, they're not seen as being as objective. They're naturally seen as, like being more emotional, and all these all these complicating factors. So finding someone who takes you seriously, listens when you tell them that you seen a symptom, and that something's not working for you, seems really, really critical. I'm glad you found somebody that works well with.

Miranda Moore 59:02

Yeah, but again, it wasn't like necessarily the first try. And so it's very, like, when you find someone who like, okay, they believe you but they have like a very specific interpretation of what your challenges are and how you should treat them. And they seem inflexible on that. Like it's just it was, it was frustrating because you go back in your head and you're like, you doubt yourself, you know, you doubt yourself you doubt, you know, am I the person who's wrong when like, not necessarily it's just this person isn't a good fit. And, you know, it's I implicit there's also like a little bit of frustration there like you work really hard you research doctor if you find someone you know, maybe they work with your insurance or whatever. And then you just don't get along you, it doesn't work out and you're kind of back to square one and that's sort of intimidating and you know, disheartening and dismotivating and a lot of or demotivating in a lot of ways, and it's, you know, even there's, you know, you just have to keep going. It's unfortunate that, that it's so hard to find mental health care that like, you can be comfortable with, like, you know, it's it's frustrating. It's, there's so many challenges to doing that. But, um, but it's worth it in the end.

Erica D'Eramo 1:00:23

Yeah. Yeah, I totally agree. So I, I've not actually found the ADHD medication to be helpful for me. I actually just like, didn't notice a difference. So I ended up not pursuing that route, which is another area where it can just be super different for each individual. For some people, I find. I've hear... some conversations I've had with people, they've, they've kind of recounted trying different medications and having side effects that were too much for them, or they, you know, didn't like the way they felt. And so they've learned to, to live without the medication. And for some people, it's been really effective and really useful. So it kind of just seems like it differs from person to person, there's no like, right or wrong, better way to handle it. So. So right around the time that I figured out that I probably had ADHD. Around that same time, while I was working offshore, I started implementing a meditation practice. And I don't think they're related. I don't think I, well, I don't think I think I actually probably started meditating before, I had my aha moment and went for a diagnosis, but it came about because of this, they both came about because of the same reason that I was in this like, really rigid environment where I didn't have any control over even my natural functions like sleeping, or when you eat or anything like that, or even what you eat. And so I started a mindfulness practice at the time, and I had started, I tried meditating for years, and really struggled a lot. And never thought it was something that was right for me. And in that moment, I didn't really have a choice, like I needed something. And so even a three minute meditation could just kind of like, bring me relief, bring my, you know, bring my blood pressure down in these in these tough times. And it would help me fall asleep, when I would say, need to take a 20 minute nap, that's all the time, I would have to take a 20 minute nap. And so I started listening to sleep meditations that would kind of knock me out and get my brain to stop the like cycling, the running the rambling. And that has ended up being such a valuable practice for me in life, mostly because it's taught me to listen and watch my own thoughts in a way that can indicate when I'm starting to go off track. So it's even just noticing my own distraction, like it's given me a tool to work on, or a muscle that I'm working on to even notice when I'm distracted, which is something I didn't have before or even notice when I'm hyper focused. So I don't know what studies have been done on ADHD and meditation. But for me, it's almost like the medication that I have available, that does seem to have more of an impact so much that when I hear the I listen to guided meditations, I'm not such a great meditator that I can just like sit in silence for 20 minutes. That sounds like torture to me. And I did do it through like my yoga teacher training, you know, we would have like 30 minute silent meditations every day. And so I know I'm, I'm able to it just doesn't sound enjoyable. But as soon as I kind of hear the sound of the guided meditation, it's like a physical reaction occurs in my body. And that's been that's been interesting. That's not to say if medication works for you, you should go get it and don't rely on just meditation. But that's one thing that I have found to be really effective for me.

Miranda Moore 1:04:09

Yeah. I and one thing that's interesting is like, you know, I don't fully like, I don't believe in like, the woowoo stuff, like, I believe that food is food and medicine is medicine, and you know, whatever. I don't necessarily believe that. Like, you know, all these people who suggest like, you know, do this in your diet, and you'll just feel so much... like, whatever. But I did know, at least being on medication made me clear my head enough to where I could do things like meal plan and whatever, and just kind of those quality of life, adult things that I've always struggled with. And so just like I've even noticed to just like, eating better, and I'm not talking about like being perfect, I'm not talking you know, whatever. I don't buy into diet culture. I'm not talking about like, I don't track what I eat, but it's literally just like planning meals ahead of time. So I'm not grabbing fast food, like literally something that simple like being on medication has cleared my head enough to where I can do that. And even that has helped also just like being able to, like, I don't know, and just like, even, like, take care of like things in like a balanced way has also made me feel better physically, like mentally it's helped clear my head as well.

Erica D'Eramo 1:05:23

It's like those foundational enablers that kind of allow the other things to work more smoothly. Yeah, I feel like there are some fixes, there are some things that I change about my environment or about, you know, like tools that I put in place that fix a small thing, or make something in my life easier. But then there are those other things that just impact so many different aspects of my life. And are kind of multipliers of my well being.

Miranda Moore 1:05:53

Yeah.

Erica D'Eramo 1:05:55

I feel like nowadays, there's so much about ADHD on Twitter, on YouTube, TikTok all the kind of platforms. And probably a lot of advice, some advice is good, some is totally ungrounded. And I guess I should reiterate that us talking about our experiences today is just that, like it's this is not giving anybody, the intention is not to be giving any advice or, or any recommendations. Just to kind of humanize some of this some of this struggle and talk about some of the things that have worked and not worked for us. But I do feel like there's a lot out there. Is there anything that you found that doesn't work for you that you thought like, this was a no go.

Miranda Moore 1:06:43

Um, I know, like, I'm in a couple like ADHD support groups, on like Facebook and stuff like that. Where just like, people get together and talk about, like, what's worked for you who does this whatever. And a lot of the people who suggest like gamifying things, I know, it worked really well for you, like, I just, I can't like I, my perfectionism just gets the best of me, and it just ends up becoming more destructive than I think anything. It's more destructive than beneficial for me.

Erica D'Eramo 1:07:15

Yeah.

Miranda Moore 1:07:16

Anything that is too, like frilly or detailed up front, that sort of like, requires my attention that I would have otherwise focused on, like my actual work. Um, you know, if it like, takes away from that, like, you know, bullet journaling, super complicated, like formats, or like, you know, designs or, you know, anything like that, like, I just, I can't, because it, it is both too intimidating for me to want to be a part of, and then like, if I do have the motivation to try, it just takes all of the focus that I would, because focus is finite, I feel like like, I can't just focus on like, you know, forever on anything. And so, if it takes all my focus to just plan the tasks, rather than actually implement the ta.. and like do it, then it's just a non starter for me. But yeah, I also just need things that like, allow for flexibility. That's why you know, my system really isn't more complicated than just like lists, I just do a lot of to do lists, and I do a lot of po... Like, and I have, I mean, I'm a writer, so I have like, I'm very picky about notebooks, but I have, them like all over my house. And so if I am like in the kitchen, and I remember something like I have a notebook there, I can just like or a pad of paper, something I can just grab and like, you know, write. And then if I need to stick Post-its all over, I can do that. And so it's just pretty rudimentary, like I, you know, I wish I had like a more, I was able to describe a more sophisticated system, but it's literally just, you know, the thing that's worked for me has been the thing that's been I've been able to maintain for years, which I have a lot of trouble with. Maintaining any kind of practice for years, is just at the end of the day, make a list of what I want to do the next day. And every week, I kind of make a list of the things I need to do the next week, and just that's literally nothing more complicated than that has ever worked for me. Like I have to keep it super simple.

Erica D'Eramo 1:09:13

Yeah, I understand that. I'm trying to think if there's anything that I've tried that really hasn't worked, I mean, I know that there is. There's plenty of stuff that hasn't worked for me. Um...

Miranda Moore 1:09:24

It's also very ADHD thing to like, if this doesn't work, you just like push it out of your working memory and you just never remember it again.

Erica D'Eramo 1:09:30

Discarded. Yeah, not there anymore. I think that one thing I'm working towards which I is of questionable value, but was necessary at the time as an intervention was time blocking. I was having this feeling at the end of each day that kind of my day had disappeared from me. I didn't know where my time went. I was working across like multiple things at once and just flitting from one thing to another and so I've started trying to time block where I put it in my ca... I've sort of said like, how many hours, proportionally, do I want to spend doing X, Y, or Z? In a week. And at least carving it out, so I can see what it look... like a week, like that looks like and then at least I know, if I'm not working on that thing, during this time, I'm detracting from it, you know, or I need to kind of place it somewhere else. I found that I'm not sticking to those time blocks very well. But it has given me a lot more visibility to where my time is going. And I actually started doing that. Once I found that I wasn't sticking to the time blocking, I started tracking my time using this app called Toggl.

Miranda Moore 1:10:43

I've heard of it.

Erica D'Eramo 1:10:45

Yeah. And that has been absolutely fascinating. I, some days, I'm better than others about hitting the the like timer to track where my time is going. But what it's given me is a lot more. It's given me relief. When I look at what I did do during a day, just like that visibility of, okay, I didn't just squander this time. Like, even if I spent it surfing through Twitter or something or kind of going on a deep dive. At least I know where it went. And that has made me feel more in charge of my time. That more intentional I guess, even though it's backwards looking. And even the act of just hitting the Toggl timer or having it pop up and say like, do you want to record your time? Even that makes me think like, oh, what am I going to write in this box right now that I'm doing? Like, I'm just surfing the internet, or I'm like researching the history of Le Creuset, kind of like cookware, you know, whatever it is that I'm doing in that moment that has caught my attention, then I can write it down and just feel more in control. So that's been really helpful for me. But questionable success on the time blocking.

Miranda Moore 1:12:05

I tried Pomodoro method one time... reminded...

Erica D'Eramo 1:12:09

Oh, yeah.

Miranda Moore 1:12:10

...which I don't know, if maybe it wasn't the, you know, the actual proper way to do it. I just I couldn't do it like, I found that like, when it was time for a break, I was like, No, I'm not ready for a break, I'm in the middle of this, I can't whatever. And so I would ignore it. And I just...

Erica D'Eramo 1:12:24

Yeah.

Miranda Moore 1:12:24

...for me, it wasn't like, again, I don't know if it's like my all or nothing sort of thinking of my need to compartmentalize like, you know, I'm working or I'm not working, or I'm doing the you know, and I just like I didn't, you know, I just didn't, I don't know, I just cognitively couldn't get over the barrier of like, it's telling me I need to take a break, don't tell me what to do. Like, I don't want to take a break right now I'm in the middle. So I would just like ignore it. So it was just like, off the bat, like, first time I tried it, I was like, nope, and I just maybe, yeah, you may need to try it again, or something, but I'm just like, especially being medicated, like you, my mind doesn't wander as much anymore as it used to. And so that's like a big help. And I feel like the Pomodoro method works really well for people who have issues with their mind wandering. And for me, I don't know if it was just like, being a creative, where it's like, my issue is always sitting down to like, do it. It wasn't necessarily knowing what I had to do, or anything like that, it was just sitting down to do it. And so that's been ameliorated a lot by getting treatment. And so now that I can, like, I don't know, sometimes when I need to write, I just need to write for like, 10 hours straight, and just get it out. And then I'll like, not look at it for a week, and then I'll go back and, you know, look at it, or, like, I'll work on something else in the meantime, and then I'll go back to it or whatever, but I just need to, like, I don't like the division of time, you can and like I like the flexibility of if I want to just keep working through I'm gonna keep working through if I need a break, you know, I'll my body will tell me I'll need a break. And then I'll take it, but I just so those artificial kind of constraints where it's like, you work for this amount of time, and then you take a break for this amount of time, and then you sit back down again, like that just feels not productive for me. And the way that I work. Yeah, for somebody else it works great. Like, I have a friend who works great for like, she can't work without the Pomodoro method, you know, and so.

Erica D'Eramo 1:14:25

I found it really helpful in grad school, when I would have to do when I would have to especially for reading, like when I had many chapters to read and to get through and I would put them into my like, text reader that would read it to me and I do best when I'm, this is something I figured out I guess in grad school, when I can read the words on a page and listen to them at the same time. That's really helpful even if it's just like computer voice reading it to me. So page readers have been helpful and upping the speed also helps me a lot because I can get through it more quickly. I don't have to have sustained attention for quite as long. But it forces me to like, listen more closely. So so doing that, but I would look and see like even at 2x speed or whatever, 350 words per minute, I'm still looking at like seven hours of reading today that I have to get through on a weekend. And so that Pomodoro method was helpful for me not because it was saying, like, take a break now, but because it was giving me permission for some breaks. Because otherwise I would hit maybe two hours, and I just be like, I'm done. I can't do this anymore. And so it enabled me to kind of go for some long hauls, because it gave me permission to take a break. And I was like, okay, I know, I can get through 45 minutes, of really dry reading. I know I can, or whatever it is, like 20 minutes. So it gave me kind of more bite sized chunks. Otherwise, I would just put it off and have it looming, where I had to kind of pull an all nighter before before class, which is not good. So maybe in certain situations, it could, it could work for me, but but I agree once you're in flow, if you're doing something where you hit flow, like yeah, that's the last thing you want.

Miranda Moore 1:16:11

Yeah.

Erica D'Eramo 1:16:12

That precious flow state, like. Don't take it away from me.

Miranda Moore 1:16:16

Yeah

Erica D'Eramo 1:16:16

Yeah. Um, so I guess like, just to wrap do you have any last words of wisdom for anyone who I guess maybe thinks that they have ADHD or is struggling with this or even just people, even if they don't have ADHD, just attention spans are tough to come by these days. There's a lot out there distracting us.

Miranda Moore 1:16:40

Yeah, there is a lot. Um, and it's just and it's tough, because everything is so like, it's like our lives are in a pressure cooker right now. And I feel like we're kind of nearing the end, at least in the US of the we're not there yet. But we're really kind of inching closer to the end of the pandemic. So people are kind of getting extra antsy. So yeah, it's just tough. But I mean, my yeah, the only advice I can really give is just like, be gentle to yourself, like, be forgiving with yourself. Because like, we're all trying right now. And we're all human. And like, these demands that are put on us by like, whether it's work or you know school or whatever, like these are demands put on us by like, in like institutions that are not human, and they don't always account for humanity...

Erica D'Eramo 1:17:36

Yeah.

Miranda Moore 1:17:37

...in their requirements of us. And so, I mean, I don't know I just found a lot of freedom when I was able to decouple myself from these systems of, you know, capitalism and and whatever else that place some kind of moral value almost on productivity. Where it's like, if you just allow yourself the freedom to be human, I've found like, a lot has been lifted, emotionally, and my mental health was a lot better.

Erica D'Eramo 1:18:11

Yeah, I mean, for the end result too of being able to, like, produce these beautiful things, or these interesting things that at least, the contribution's not about just putting in the sweat, or the hours or some measure of number of words, or, you know, some, like arbitrary measure that we tie to our morality. It's really, to me the switch has been looking at what's most effective for what I want to get out of life, or what I want to put into life, and how can I be most effective in that, and that's when I realized, like, trying to tamp down the part of me that I associate with ADHD also tamps down the unique things that I bring, like that nonlinear way of thinking, my creativity. All the things that make me kind of are part of my identity and how I view myself that I can contribute to the world to move us towards a more just more equitable world. Like that's my goal. And so if I can be more effective by recognizing that, and being, like you said, being compassionate, why would I not do that? Right? That makes that makes no sense. Yeah. Cool. Well, thank you so much for coming and chatting. And this is also probably a nonlinear conversation. Just, I hope, I hope this was helpful. And for anyone interested in more information about, you know, living and working with neurodiversity, there is so much out there right now, on the internet. There's so many different support groups, there's, there are so many books to read. So if you think you might be in this category definitely, you know, look into that and perhaps get a diagnosis it can be, it can be life changing. And if you're interested in what Two Piers is doing and Two Piers consulting and our efforts to make workplaces more representative, more equitable or diverse, then you can find information about us at twopiersconsulting.com, or on any of the social media platforms, so Facebook, Twitter, Instagram and LinkedIn. And if you liked this podcast, like our podcasts, then please leave us a review or rating and check back for our next episode. Thanks.

An Exploration of Yin Yoga

Photo courtesy of Unsplash.

Transcript below:

Erica D'Eramo 0:10

Hello, and welcome to the Two Piers podcast. I'm your host, Erica D'Eramo. And today we've invited a special guest to come talk to us about Yin yoga: some of the benefits, how we can incorporate it into our lives, and her perspective on the practice of Yin.

Erica D'Eramo 0:38

So joining us today is Rhia Robinson. Hi, Rhia. Thanks for joining us on the podcast today.

Rhia Robinson 0:44

Thanks for having me.

Erica D'Eramo 0:46

So tell us a little bit about yourself.

Rhia Robinson 0:50

Um, well, I've been teaching yoga for almost 20 years, which is, seems crazy to say, but I started practicing yoga, in high school, and it was not a consistent practice. But the, the poses and the meditations, and, you know, I started reading about yoga certainly intrigued me enough that I kept coming back to it in high school and college. And then, of course, after college really devoted myself to studying the tradition. I teach here in Houston, Texas. And I've, I've sat on all sides of the yoga world, of course, I've been a student, I am a student, always. I've owned a studio before. And right now I'm just really focusing on my teaching. And I offer weekly classes, online classes. And I also train teachers specifically in yoga.

Erica D'Eramo 1:56

Cool. So I, one of the reasons I wanted to do an episode on Yin yoga, and bring you on to share your expertise is because I found that Yin has been a really valuable support structure for me in my life that is kind of chaotic and busy or constantly trying to juggle lots of things. And Yin has been a practice that I've kept coming back to, over the years to find some mindfulness to kind of find my edge, and to practice being still. And it, it was really quite different from what I had previously understood yoga to be. And so that's one of the reasons I wanted to share that with some of our listeners in case that is something that they would be interested in as well, because a lot of our listeners are also very busy juggling lots of things coming out of a very turbulent year with lots of trauma. And I feel that this might be something that they they could find value in as well.

Rhia Robinson 2:59

Yeah, I think I think a lot of people know, in general, the benefits of yoga, you know, someone almost always has a friend who, when they're stressed out, they say you need you should try yoga, which is great. Because as my, one of my favorite teachers, Erich Schiffmann, always said, the world needs more yogis. But you'll get in, in group classes in the US is often much more focused on a kind of a workout. modality, it's it's a lot of emphasis on flexibility, and sometimes on strength, and sometimes on sweating. And that's, that is certainly one way to approach yoga and yoga Asana in particular. And then Yin is on the other side of that spectrum. So it approaches the physical postures via this kind of passive, softer, quieter route, and we emphasize stillness.

Erica D'Eramo 4:08

Yeah, I feel like in a world that has lots of distractions, sometimes I would use yoga, like a vinyasa class as a different type of distraction. And it was a beneficial distraction, it energized me. But it didn't necessarily force me to be with myself and be with my thoughts and kind of witness the journey necessarily. So that was one of the differences that I really enjoyed about Yin. So can you tell us a little bit about Yin itself, and maybe some of the history or the philosophy around it like what is Yin yoga?

Rhia Robinson 4:45

Yeah, of course. So Yin yoga, in some ways, is considered a relatively modern form of yoga. There's kind of two big teachers out there that really codified the teachings and then and promoted them in the US. One is Paul Grilley. And the other is Sarah Powers. But Yin yoga has more of its roots in Traditional Chinese Medicine. And I think the thing to know about Yin is in some ways, even though it's considered a modern type of yoga or style of yoga, if you if you look back at some of the more traditional texts like Patanjali, Yoga Sutras, he describes Asana as being a steady, stable seat. And the fact that we use mostly seated or supine postures in Yin. And that we emphasize these qualities of stillness and ease actually point to the fact that what we're doing is probably in some ways closer to what the yogis were practicing 1000s of years ago.

Erica D'Eramo 6:04

So what do you think some of the misconceptions might be around Yin? For somebody who hasn't practiced it before or known about it before?

Rhia Robinson 6:16

Yeah, well, I mean, I think if you talk about Yin yoga, that the major misconception about Yin is that you're somehow stretching your joints and your ligaments. So in Yin yoga, we hold the postures for, in general, three to five minutes. Sometimes it's two minutes, and sometimes it's 10 minutes. But for the most part, we're kind of using this container of three to five minutes. Like I said, most of them are seated postures, or supine postures. And within the practice, we really emphasize trying to find a passive hold. So you're not gripping and gritting your way through a five minute warrior one. In fact, you're trying to find a softness. And we really, as teachers recommend practicing and about 80% of your capacity, so you're not going to your full range of motion. And then, like I said, kind of holding there, it's a little softer. That doesn't mean it's gentle. I would say that's probably another misconception is people think, oh, when you're moving slow, it's, it's it's gentle. In fact, some of the postures in Yin, as you know, are very provocative they're, they stir things up. But one of our goals, if you will, within the practice, is to be able to kind of observe that, that stirring up of stuff, and just hold space for it to not have to react immediately. So we are putting some pressure on the bones and the ligaments and the joints, we say stress. And we say that very specifically, because we're not stretching those parts of the body. But we certainly are stressing those tissues. And yeah, I hope I answered that question.

Erica D'Eramo 8:24

Yeah, absolutely. I think you're right that sometimes people think Yin is synonymous with like restorative yoga. And for me, they're just such completely different experiences. Like I'm going through a lot of emotions in a Yin class, and a lot of kind of reflections are coming up. And there's an energy there that is quite different than what I experience in a restorative class.

Rhia Robinson 8:52

So restorative yoga and Yin kind of share a little bit of crossover in that they both have long hold times. But in restorative yoga, if you're feeling any stress in the bones, or the joints or the body, it's it's a signal that you need to add more support. So there really shouldn't be any stress on the on the in the body in restorative. Whereas in Yin, we're looking to kind of come to some sort of physical edge. And so there will be sensation and sometimes that sensation can be really intense.

Erica D'Eramo 9:30

Yeah, intense is a good word not pain, right? Like we never want pain. But intensity is is a good descriptor. So I'm, I'm interested in what some of the benefits are like, I know what my benefits have been that I've I've taken away from yen and experienced from my Yin practice. I'm interested in your perspective on what some of the benefits can be.

Rhia Robinson 9:58

Well, I think there's several benefits really, of Yin yoga, but the one that I really like to promote is that a lot of us know, we've heard all about the benefits of meditation, right of trying to quiet the mind, I don't even use the word still the mind because that's nearly impossible, right? But, but certainly kind of giving some parameters around the mind. So getting a little bit more quiet. Um, getting still. Even finding some way to to rest within all of these different sensations that are happening. Those are some of the big benefits of of Yin. I would say that the more stable you feel, the more easily it will be to kind of go with the flow, on the mat, off of the mat. Of course, we live most of our lives off of the mat. So everything that we're learning, we want to be able to integrate into our life off the mat, which is, of course, where we spend 99% of our time.

Erica D'Eramo 11:18

Yeah, and that is, that is really why I felt like this was a topic that I wanted to explore a bit on a podcast episode, because for me, my Yin practice really does sort of show up throughout other aspects of my life, particularly when I am trying to be present when I'm trying to sort of explore the journey of experiences, and I will sometimes... We talk, you know, sometimes in Yin, we talk about finding your edge. And I feel like in life, that that's very valuable, understanding at what point you know, are, am I going beyond my limits? At what point am I just feeling discomfort in the moment, and I just need to sit with it and observe it and kind of learn from it. And differentiating between those two, that's I found that to be really valuable.

Rhia Robinson 12:18

Right? Well, and what develops resilience is playing with our edges. One of the things that I talked so much about when the pandemic began about a year ago is in my classes, I said, Oh, you know, what, we've been training for this our entire practice, this ability to stay stable, to remain calm, as we're navigating uncertainty. You know, these are all things that really in a good yoga practice eventually come up.

Erica D'Eramo 12:53

Yeah, I think the, the piece around mindfulness as well is a bit kind of more approachable. And this is something that we've discussed in the past, that for a lot of people sitting for three minutes of silence, just in a chair and breathing sounds like an easy thing to do. And then the first time they try to do it, they realize, Oh, this is very difficult. And sitting, being alone with my thoughts is is actually challenging. And so people will sometimes back away from a mindfulness practice, because it's not easy to establish, and that's why we call it a practice, right? So, Yin is, for me, it's like a different entryway into a mindfulness practice, that is a different experience and maybe has, I don't want to say less barriers, but perhaps more approachable barriers for me.

Rhia Robinson 13:53

I think that in 2021, we're certainly dealing with more distraction, more stress than ever. And so, yeah, asking somebody to just sit still for three minutes, and, you know, focus on their breath is nearly impossible, even for a very practiced meditator or yogi, particularly in these circumstances. So one of the reasons why I really like in is just like you said, it's a gateway or a different approach in to becoming more mindful to quieting the mind. Because we give the mind something to, to do to focus on. And this is, this is a great approach, right? Because it's not just telling the mind Hey, I want you to be quiet for three minutes. The nature of our minds is to is to roam, is to think is to wander, it's to enquire. So here in This particular tradition, we're going to use the mind. But we're going to give it something to focus on. In other words, hey, you've got three minutes, and I'm going to put you in a shape. And I want you to assess the sensation. And I want you to assess how you can support yourself better. And I want you to look at how your breath is moving, where it moves with ease where it's stuck. And I want you to notice the state of your mind. And then maybe, after we've kind of looked at all of these pieces of the experience, for the last minute, I want you to have the intention to be still. And that's maybe five or eight breaths for the average person. And that's, that's far more approachable than just being quiet for three minutes.

Erica D'Eramo 15:51

Yeah, I agree that having something to focus on a physical sensation to start with, is an interesting balance between the doing brain and the observing brain. And so it kind of gives us something to do, it gives us like a focus objective. But it also gives us that opportunity to kind of shift over into the observant observer brain, and we're observing our sensations, and then we're observing our thoughts and our emotions and responses. And that is kind of the gateway that I see into mindfulness. And that shifting from the doing brain to the observing brain,

Rhia Robinson 16:37

Right. Well, and we also get to get a sense of some of our patterns, right? So in my habit of, of or in my, in this context of observing, do I, am I judging myself? We start to look at yogi as yogis at "what do I always do?" Oh, I, I really am harsh on the side of my body that's tight, or, or things like that. And again, we can take that inquiry that information and start to see how that plays outside off of the mat. And the other thing is, as we start to tune into this observer, this part of us that is, you know, watching the body have sensations, it's watching the mind have a response to those sensations, we can start to delineate like, who is the part of me that is observing? Hmm, that's an interesting inquiry in and of itself.

Erica D'Eramo 17:40

Yeah. That's quite an existential inquiry. I yeah, I think that the one of the other kind of elements for Yin that is been that has been interesting to me is, even though it's a physical activity, it shifts us away from this, like, goal oriented achievement aspect of physical activity that so often proliferates, whether we're going for a run or we are doing a vinyasa class with like 2000 Chaturangas, whatever it is, handstands. And it shifts us away from that into the journey and the experience of it. And that can extrapolate into kind of other types of physical activity for me, where I learned to enjoy the process, rather than the metrics around it, or some sort of, like achievement around it. Just the experience.

Rhia Robinson 18:42

Yeah, I think, again, in our culture, there's kind of it's, it's very common, to always have a reason to do something. We don't rest enough, we're not used to, quote unquote, doing nothing. We, a lot of our identity is wrapped up in achievements and and what it is that we're doing on a day to day basis, minute by minute, so this idea that, you know, integration, transformation requires rest, it requires non doing is a pretty revelate or, you know, revelatory idea for most people.

Erica D'Eramo 19:33

Yeah, and that shift away from the achievement to celebrating quietness, resting experience, observation is, is also really valuable in our day to day lives as we're caught up in these kind of meetings and classes and all the zoom meetings and whatnot. Just trudging through trying to get these accomplishments. Are we experiencing the experience? Are we? Are we actually taking that sort of step back to understand, as the observer, how are we feeling? What's going on in our head? What's going on around us? And so that's another aspect for me that yen has strengthened.

Rhia Robinson 20:22

That's beautiful.

Erica D'Eramo 20:24

So we've talked about some of the benefits. And I've talked a lot about, like, how that extrapolates into my life, what are some of the risks with Yin or the contraindications perhaps that people should be aware of if they are thinking about, you know, going and and starting a Yin practice?

Rhia Robinson 20:42

Yeah, I mean, like any physical activity, there are certain risks. In particular, I would say that there's a style and a type of yoga that's best suited to different bodies and different personality types. So for one, I would say, if you're hyper mobile, like you're already very, very flexible, and you come to Yin with kind of that Western "goal mindset," it's not the best practice, because there's really the potential to further kind of destabilize the bones and the joints. Certainly people who are working with back injuries, or hip or knee replacements, or injuries may find that some of the poses are not appropriate. And for that, you know, in that, again, that's that's the case for really all yoga practices. So the best thing to do is really to find a qualified teacher. And if that's not possible, then you know, pick up a really good book that you can take a look at. And there are some general kind of practice guidelines that you can get a sense of. You know, I think the main thing with Yin is just not to overdo it to kind of keep in mind this 80% rule, that you're not going into your full capacity in any particular forward fold or backbend. But that there's there's room to allow the pose to develop over time, because we'll be there for three minutes for four minutes, five minutes. It's very different if you're maybe a hatha or vinyasa yoga practitioner, and you've only got three or four or five breaths in a pose, well, then I can see where you'd want to come up to your full capacity, because time is limited. In Yin, we have this kind of, it's a rather luxurious practice, really, and so, so you want to be careful in playing with that time that you're not going too far. I don't recommend it for for, you know, kind of a prenatal yoga practice, again, because we are strategically placing stress on the joints and the ligaments, particularly for women who are in their second and third trimester. There is certainly a risk of kind of overdoing that since they've got a hormone in their body that's preparing it for for childbirth. So those are some that's an overview of some of the risks. But finding a general kind of Yin yoga class, for most people is probably fine.

Erica D'Eramo 23:37

If you wanted to find a Yin class, where would you look?

Rhia Robinson 23:41

Oh, you know, now again, one of if we if we can say there's been benefits to to the pandemic, which I'm sure you know, there's there's a few out there if we look for the silver lining, but one of the the big benefits is that nearly every yoga studio has taken their classes in some way, shape, or form online. And they're really affordable, which is great. And they're super accessible. So if you have a yoga studio that you already like, that you're familiar with, or a teacher, you should check out and see if they have on demand classes. There's certainly some kind of national brands that are super reputable. They have a solid lineup of teachers like YogaInternational.com or Glo.com G L O. But even I believe Sarah Powers has some classes online at this point. And probably Paul Grilley does as well. So I always say, go to the top. Go to your teacher's teacher if you can. And, you know, but the one risk there if you just Google Yin yoga classes, I have no doubt you'll come up with someone's YouTube channel, which may or may not be great. It's hard to say.

Erica D'Eramo 25:08

Yeah, I think you bring up really good points about, you know, we were we are putting our bodies into states of vulnerability to a certain extent when we do some Yin, and it's, it is important to have a teacher that you trust and who is experienced? Or who, even if they're a relatively new teacher, you know, has done done the work. So, sometimes we have to sample teachers and see, you know, where our fit is?

Rhia Robinson 25:41

Absolutely. I mean, you need to find somebody who, who resonates with you, you like, what they're asking you to do you feel confident. And, of course, there's, there's tons of free yoga out there. And it's probably of varying quality. So I'll go back to kind of recommending, either, you know, again, if you have a studio that you like, they might have a Yin teacher, Yin class on the schedule, you just never, never saw it, or take a look at some of those more national kind of groupings of teachers. So Yoga International pulls teachers from all over the world, but they're of really high quality.

Erica D'Eramo 26:25

That's a great recommendation. Thank you. Is there a certain kind of time of day that you recommend doing, a Yin practice or certain time of the week? Or when would you recommend doing Yin?

Rhia Robinson 26:38

And that's a great question. You know, I think Yin yoga can be practiced at any time. But what will be important is for you to have an understanding of kind of where you want to be at the end of this practice. And that will kind of help guide the poses that you choose or the type of class that you choose. So for example, a lot of people think that Yin is relaxing. And as we've discussed, previously, it it doesn't always turn out that way. There are certain poses that are more provocative, they have a lot of sensation, and they they tend to stir up kind of expansive energies, right, they'll awaken you. So you can practice Yin to help you relax at the end of your day to help you prepare for sleep. And the poses that you would choose would be a lot more forward folds, twists, kind of supine hip openers, that kind of thing. And it's great for that. Probably less, you know, lower hold times, as well, I'd say. And, but you can also practice again in the morning to kind of wake you up. Like I said, it does have particularly back bends and laterals have a little bit more awakening expansive energy. So it just depends, you know, you can practice it at any time, but what you actually practice will differ depending on what you want to do afterwards.

Erica D'Eramo 28:24

Yeah, I still remember you kind of challenging in in your Yoga Teacher Training class that you hosted, challenging us to try doing Yin the beginning of the day in the morning, before we warmed up our muscles at all and just exploring what that experience was. And that that wasn't the time of day that I normally did Yin and it was a totally different experience for me and I really took a lot from it actually.

Rhia Robinson 28:52

Yeah, if you practice I personally love a morning Yin practice that has a lot of the the kind of the benefits to the bones to the joints to the fascia, the ligaments, and, and depending on the postures can help you move more smoothly into your day. Like you feel grounded. You feel awake, you feel centered. And it's it's great. So I'm glad you had a good experience with it.

Erica D'Eramo 29:25

Yeah, absolutely. Thank you. So for people who would like to learn more about your offerings, is there somewhere that they can follow you or find out more about your teachings or your classes that you host?

Rhia Robinson 29:40

Yeah, so of course, I have a website. It is www.RhiaRobinsonYoga.com. And my Instagram, I really focus on the yoga sutras and making those particular teachings accessible, practical. And so my Instagram is Essential Yoga Sutras @essential_yoga_sutras.

Erica D'Eramo 30:12

Awesome, thank you! I will include those in the the notes for the episode as well. And we just want to thank you for, you know, spending the time to explain this realm of yoga that, you know, some people might not be familiar with, and that could really benefit some individuals.

Rhia Robinson 30:32

Thank you so much for having me, it truly is my honor to share these teachings, and I love talking about yoga. And it's always so wonderful to hear from students who have had such a positive experience with the practice. So thank you.

Erica D'Eramo 30:50

Thank you! So, at Two Piers, we are committed to providing resources, and support to people in challenging environments. And this is one of those resources that we want to make available and let people know about. And if you're interested in finding out more about Two Piers Consulting, you can find information about us on our website at www.twopiersconsulting.com. We offer services for both individuals and organizations. And you can follow us on any of our social media platforms. So Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, and LinkedIn. And of course, we would love if you comment and review on our podcast episodes on the various platforms. Thank you for joining us, and we'll see you the next episode.

Blockchain and Cryptocurrency - What to Know

Photo courtesy of Unsplash.

Transcript below.

Erica D'Eramo 0:09

Hello, and welcome to the two peers podcast season two. I'm your host, Erica D'Eramo. And today I'm joined by a special guest, Karen Scarbrough. Karen is going to talk to us a little bit about blockchain, cryptocurrency - just give us some information about how we can get involved and develop our understanding.

Erica D'Eramo 0:37

So welcome, Karen.

Karen Scarbrough 0:39

Hi, Erica. Thanks for having me.

Erica D'Eramo 0:43

So, tell us a little bit about yourself, Karen, like your background, and maybe how you got involved or developed a curiosity around blockchain?

Karen Scarbrough 0:53

Sure. Um, so I actually graduated from university as an engineer, but I went into supply chain because I was really interested in understanding how just businesses and systems operated at a global scale. And when blockchain was first coming out, as a innovative technology, a lot of the applications first pointed towards supply chain, and I was really interested in something that could solve kind of the fires, so to speak, that I was putting out every day as a long term solution rather than than just a day to day fix. So I got interested in the tech. I learned how to program and develop applications within blockchain, specifically within Ethereum, that was the most prominent at the time. And since that the space has really evolved and what's more interesting now is what it can do on the the financial side realistically, and there's probably much more that blockchain can do in the future. That definitely what's happening from a financial perspective is really interesting to follow and pay attention to and not just the pricing, it's definitely the the way things are being built and the new designs of a financial system. To be honest, the price is probably the least interesting aspect of things right now.

Erica D'Eramo 2:27

Yeah, it's probably the piece that gets the most attention. But I feel like at least for myself, I hear a lot about blockchain. I hear a lot about cryptocurrency. But I'm not sure that I really understand it. So can you tell us a little bit about what exactly is blockchain?

Karen Scarbrough 2:45

Sure. So some of the components that make up blockchain, I think it's easiest to explain what those components are first, and then kind of add them up together. So one thing that we're used to from databases and networks is what we call different nodes in a network. So nodes would store a replication of the data set that you're looking at. So if you have a couple of different nodes, maintaining a database, each node would have a replication of the database. And what's different in blockchain is, unlike the nodes from a closed database system, any nodes can participate in this replication of data, because they've designed what they call a consensus mechanism that ensures that any party who verifies tran... what we call transactions, so updates to the data, essentially, is ensured to be to have integrity within the system. So the what these creators of blockchain essentially did was take the the benefits of decentralized systems and they came up with a really interesting what they call game theory, or game theoretic way of making the system open, but also secure. So we can get into a little bit more about what that means. But the the whole system integrity is maintained by different forms of cryptography as well. So like, for example, verifying transactions and that you as Erica signed that you want to send the, you know, X amount of money to somebody is verified through forms of cryptography. And then there's a couple of different ways that the nodes which you realistically call miners, that maintain the network and add these blocks to the blockchain, there's a couple of different ways that they compete in which to, quote unquote, win the block. So, they do that, because when they win the block and are the, basically the miner chosen to add a block onto the blockchain, they're rewarded in cryptocurrencies. So the incentivization is that these miners spend their energy, their compute power to participate in the blockchain. And therefore, they should be creating correct transactions and the reward for that is the reward in cryptocurrencies. So there's some newer forms of consensus out for certain, I think, proof of work, which is what that's called, will likely go away in the next few years. The way that mining is being redirected is that instead of compute power, proving your integrity in the network, miners instead lock collateral up in the network and say, well, I'm going to give 32 Ether to the network, and they can hold on to that, and I'll verify transactions correctly, until I want to withdraw that and not participate as a miner anymore. So again, it's iterating on itself and saying, okay, we got this open system to work, how can we make it better? So that's a really long introduction. But there's just been so much happening that I don't want to leave out what's happened first versus what's happened now.

Karen Scarbrough 6:43

So we can go further into any of those components, for sure.

Erica D'Eramo 6:48

Yeah, no, it sounds fascinating. So when you say they can provide Ether? Is that a type of cryptocurrency?

Karen Scarbrough 6:57

Yes, so most people are probably familiar with Bitcoin that the first public blockchain with crypto currency out there, there had been other decentralized, or I don't know if they were decentralized, but there were other forms of digital cash in the past that other creators had tried to prolifo... proliferate. But Bitcoin was the most successful, I think, in part due to just the design of open participation and its global scale. What Ethereum did differently is Bitcoin users can send Bitcoin to and from participants on the network, and Ethereum, you can add programming to that. So instead of me just sending you Ether, I could say, if seven days from now I have 100 Ethers send 10 to Erica. So that enables you to build more sophisticated applications with the logic built into the financial system. So it that's why the majority of the the coins that you see out there on the list, they actually are built on the Ethereum network, 'cause you use that kind of logic to build tokens. There's certainly a lot of other blockchains coming up, that work in the similar way that have claims of improving upon the consensus mechanism. They may be faster, say they're cheaper or whatnot. But that premise of moving from just a blockchain that sends and receives cryptocurrencies to one where you have programmable logic is the most interesting component of what you can do with blockchain right now.

Erica D'Eramo 8:54

So when we use the term cryptocurrency and we use the term blockchain, what is the relationship between those two? Is it interchangeable? Or what's the relationship?

Karen Scarbrough 9:06

It's a good question. So because blockchain has been a big topic within enterprises as well, so those blockchains that you see that companies are using that are using them to track and trace something in supply chain or do some kind of verification among a consortium, those blockchains don't have cryptocurrencies associated with them. And the reason for that is that they're private. So if a company knows that they're only going to have themselves and their suppliers and industry partners that they have agreements with participate in the network, then they don't need this incentivization for actors to behave truthfully. Where the cryptocurrency comes in is when Bitcoin or Ethereum, as an open network, wants to allow everybody to participate, but there's got to be a sort of skin in the game measure. One, for miners to put in correct blocks, and that they won't put a bad block in and say, well, you know, all of a sudden I have a million Ether and I'm just going to take that and cash that out. Other miners would see that in the network and say, no, that's not right, we're not going to add that block. And then also, there's transaction fees associated with things on the user side as well. So for example, if the network has a high amount of usage, and lots of people want to send transactions, the transaction fees will actually go up on these networks, and those transaction fees are received by the miners again, but it actually does a an OK job right now at balancing the amount of network traffic on the blockchain as well, these public blockchains because, you know, if you've read recently, the the fees are actually really high on some of these blockchains. And you've got a lot of developers and cryptographers looking at ways to design better optimization around that. So it's, it's kind of like a self propagating cycle, really, is that, as the fees go up, people look for ways to to get around that. And then, uh, you know, that makes the whole system theoretically better, and that that cycle kind of starts over again. And it's ultimately supposed to be a good way to maintain the network and incentivize participation, but also, not just, I would say, needless transactions that makes a user really think do I really want to put this on the blockchain? Or should I be doing this and another format off chain? So they work in a couple of different ways the the cryptocurrencies do to facilitate what's happening. And I should add too that, there's two different frameworks that you want to think in as well. There's protocol cryptocurrencies. So like, your bitcoins and your Ethers that are the ones that maintain the the main blockchain, and those are the ones that are paid transaction fees in. But there's also, because Ethereum has that programmable logic, you can actually use code to create a token on top of the network as well. So some of the examples of those that you might have seen in the news, there's a stable currency called USDC. So USD Coin, that's a token that's built on top of the Ethereum network. There's others like Dai, which is another stable coin: D, A, I. That's also built in that manner. And there's, there's really 1000s of them. I mean, I could go through them all, and probably mentioned another one or two here, but that that realistically gives you the whole picture of what's happening with cryptocurrencies, in terms of blockchain. So the summary is that they're needed for public blockchains because they maintain the integrity of the network and incentivize people to behave in the right way to maintain it. And then there's in blockchains, like Ethereum, where you can program on top of it, you can also program cryptocurrencies on top of it for specific applications.

Erica D'Eramo 14:04

So whenever you mention miner, I think of someone who can't buy alcohol, but actually, in this case, it's miner with an E, correct? And what what is that person?

Karen Scarbrough 14:15

Right!

Erica D'Eramo 14:16

What's like the definition of a miner?

Karen Scarbrough 14:19

Good question. Though, there's somewhat, uh they, miners on the network, basically, when we say blockchain, you think of blocks and a chain, right. And that is the way the data on the network is maintained. So in Bitcoin every 10 minutes, you have a new block and Ethereum it's about every 15 seconds, you have a new block of data. And it's based on time and so it's a chunk of transactions basically, and a little bit more cryptography and things mixed in but the miners are the ones that produce these blocks. So if you want your transaction included in a blockchain, it's the miners who would verify it and add it to a block. And the the tie in there is that the miners, because it's open, and anybody could participate, like theoretically, and it's, it's happened, I mean, you can have miners that come in and say, well, I would like to create a block where I own, you know, a million Bitcoin or something like that. And they'll try to include a false block. What the network is built to do is that you should have enough miners incentivized to earn cryptocurrencies through through mining and maintaining the network that a faulty block wouldn't be included. So the miners are the maintainers of the network, and the builders of it really. And the novel part is just again, going back to you could have malicious actors come in and say, I want to include a faulty transaction, but because like, for example, I know, I believe Bitcoin and Ethereum have over 10,000 nodes throughout the world. And that's probably more than that. But if you get one out of those 10,000, trying to put up something false, the other ones are going to say, well, we have no interest in crashing this network and the price of bitcoin or Ether going down, so we're not going to include your faulty transaction, we're going to show what actually happened and maintain the network with integrity. And that's like, how it's supposed to ultimately be maintained that that game theory around if you are mining, you want more than most parties, that it's a good network that people want to use it and they trust it. So that's kind of the the reciprocity there.

Erica D'Eramo 17:07

So what are some other terms that we should maybe know or be familiar with? We've kind of covered blockchain and cryptocurrency and, and some others throughout this discussion, and now miners. Are there any others that get you know, any other terms that get thrown around that perhaps people should be aware of?

Karen Scarbrough 17:29

So I have alluded to code being built on top of Ethereum, and that would be referred to as a smart contract, that people often call that. It makes it sound like a financial agreement, but really what all a smart contract is, is code. So you can have a smart contract that has nothing to do with sending cryptocurrency back and forth, but just, you know, stores something like a "Hello World" expression. So that's one distinction to note there. And then probably another one to be familiar with is decentralized finance. That's, that's also been a popular terminology that's been coming out. So decentralized finance refers to financial applications that have been built with code smart contracts on top of these decentralized, public blockchains. And they're a bit different because it's not codifying old financial systems, like you wouldn't take what a bank does today and just put that in code and put it on a blockchain. Like, the differences lie in the fact that the smart contracts themselves can actually hold value. So that's a that's a pretty novel aspect to understand. So like if, if a company writes a smart contract, where, let's say I send 10 Ether to that smart contract, that 10 ether is debited from my account. So it's no long... it's not in my account. It's not in the developer company's account. It's in this smart contract that they've built, it's in code. They can write a smart contract like that, for example, that somebody else can take out a loan or something against my 10 Ether. And you can programmatically maintain the integrity of that loan. And there's a couple of different ways that they do that, but that's a good short example of what's happening is that the the value isn't being held in centralized systems for decentralized finance, it's been held in smart contracts. And they're programmed in such a way that they facilitate things like loans and exchanging and even insurance that we do today in our financial systems, but they're not operating at the same way when you get down to a granular level, because you've got these smart contracts, maintaining what's going on, not the centralized systems that we we had in the past.

Erica D'Eramo 20:29

So that, you know, brings me nicely to one of my next questions, which is what do you see is sort of some long term macro impacts of blockchain and cryptocurrency or maybe even just decentralization?

Karen Scarbrough 20:45

It's a good question. I think we're shaping, and the days of depending on how regulations go, and the innovations go it could shape up in lots of different ways. And what ultimately, the aim is to enable, I would say, a lot more frictionless personal banking, in a lot of ways. And that can span everything from, you know, alternative currencies and exchange rates across borders to the example I just mentioned, where you know, somebody putting up collateral for a loan, it's far easier then applications that we've had in the past and a lot more open. And I guess, I don't want to say more easily maintained, but it's something that that when I say easily maintained, what I what I more mean, is that because the whole system works together, and you could and what's happening is on the blockchain, because you can build an exchange, a loan system, an insurance platform, and all these different applications, they're not disjointed anymore, they actually talk to each other and build on top of each other because they're built on the same protocol. So like, for example, like imagine if we all use like a different internet today. And I had to connect to one internet to get Facebook and one internet to get Google like, eventually, what happened in the days of the early internet is we all agreed on one protocol that pretty much whatever website you want to access, uses the same underlying protocol. And that's what's happening realistically, with things being built in decentralized finance and public blockchain is we're agreeing, as a financial system, okay, I'm going to build this on this protocol, as an exchange, and there's going to be this company that builds a lending system, this company that builds a insurance system. And because it's all in the same protocol for a user, you can actually connect what you want to do far more easily in a lot of ways than we can today where we have to go to these different institutions to do different things.

Erica D'Eramo 23:20

So that sort of makes me think about regulation, then what eventually, do you see the state of regulation with regard to cryptocurrency or I guess, do you have any thoughts on the current state and maybe the future state?

Karen Scarbrough 23:36

I think the discussion between you know, what's happening with inflation and fiat versus crypto is one that, you know, it's just a that's a hard one to comment on, because it's, there's so many factors that play into that, but I think what's more important to understand is what you can do as a personal user with cryptocurrency versus cash, because the other reason why cryptocurrency is so interesting is that you can hold funds in your own personal digital wallet, that you are the only one that has the the password to it. That introduces a lot of challenges, because if you lose it, you know, obviously you don't have a backup to potentially get your cryptocurrency back. So there are tons of risks involved there. But it also is something that opens up, you know, a lot more seamless of a financial system and a lot of ways just on the digital side. So to thrash out what that means a little bit more. If I go to a central exchange, and I buy Ether with my cryptocurrency, what I can do is I can take that that cryptocurrency that I bought and say I want to send it to this address. And a cryptocurrency address is like, you might have seen them in the news, they look like 0x, seven, four, etc, you know, 64 numbers leading off of that it's just a randomized set of numbers. But when you send that from the centralized exchange to your wallet, you can you control where it goes, it can go in and out. So it's, in many ways, it's a bit the equivalent of taking out a chunk of cash from your bank. And, you know, once it's in your wallet, realistically, the bank doesn't know where it goes from there. The catch 22 of cryptocurrency, and where some of the regulation gets interesting, is that because blockchain keeps a record of all the transactions, realistically, if you take out cryptocurrency from an exchange, and then send it to somebody else, people can see that you've done that, because these systems are public right now. There are lots of different privacy solutions coming out that might change that in the future. But as far as an auditing system, it's actually a lot better than cash. There's a big misconception about a lot of criminal activity happening with cryptocurrencies. Smart criminals really aren't doing that. I mean, that it happens all they can fully see that. But if it was really this private, great system for criminals, I think we'd see a lot more activity of it. There's some reports that have said that that criminal activity has even gone down in the past couple of years, and the reason for that is the auditability of it. And the fact that you can go back and see, well, if this address, got Bitcoin from this address, and sent it here, this must have been what they did with it. So there's some regulation, proposals around exchanges being responsible for reporting above a certain threshold that if they if you withdraw this much amount, then the exchange has to report that, and then the exchange has to report where you sent it. That's actually far more invasive than what we have for cash right now. So like, for example, if I withdraw cash from a bank, like, they report that I withdrew the cash, but they don't know where I spent it, so they don't report it. So there are some lawmakers that want to put that extra reporting burden really, on some of these centralized institutions. And yeah, that's kind of up for debate, it would make it a little bit harder as to some of the innovation in some ways. But, you know, that's just being discussed at the regulator level. You know, with these systems being live for bitcoins, you know, 20, oh, gosh, almost 20 or no, not 20, 12 years now. And then, with Ethereum being live for six years, or, yeah, six years this year, I think. Anyways, like that's already that the the cat's kind of out of the box already. And that kind of transmission's happening. So it'll be interesting to see which way it goes. But users just have to be conscious that it hasn't been fully determined how these systems should operate. And I feel like we're trying to allow for innovation but also maintain the integrity of the financial system as well. So the hope is that we reach the right balance with that.

Erica D'Eramo 29:19

So what do you personally see as some of the risks involved in either partaking or investing at this point?

Karen Scarbrough 29:31

So there's lots of risks because the... so you can definitely...

Erica D'Eramo 29:38

You mentioned a couple like forgetting your password.

Karen Scarbrough 29:42

Absolutely. So the market in general is unlike anything that can be mirrored in traditional markets. People don't know how to value these cryptocurrencies yet and that's why you see, in part these wide swings of prices. And you do have instances as well, where a small amount of users can possess a large amount of tokens depending on which one you're trading. So that is also something to be aware of is that we talked about these systems being decentralized. But if you have a core group of users kind of having the majority of the tokens, that's also not a great thing for market control and fluctuations, in many ways, so it's the volatility that that's out there and the fact that people don't know how to value these things, that gives it such a wild, swinging price differentiator. And then when you get, especially for decentralized finance, these systems are all are all new. So in many ways, they're like, you can see that they're, you know, quote, unquote, working because they have users, things have worked thus far. That doesn't mean down the line, that it's not going to have issues. So there have been hacks, and even not like code hacks in the smart contracts, but like, for example, there was one platform that pegged their price oracle, so where they were getting their price, from a certain website. And that particular website had a big price swing that day. So the other websites moder... monitoring cryptocurrency prices didn't see this. So what happened on that platform is that because of these wild price swings, the loans were called in, and many people were liquidated because of it. So it's, it's not something that like, they hacked the, you know, loan or borrowing platform code. It worked as it should. But, you know, these price oracles were erroneous that they were looking at. So there's things like that, that that can happen. There's all sorts of components in these systems now where people just have to take into consideration that if one of these goes wrong, that's when issues come up. And then there's also a catch 22 in that, unlike traditional financial systems, a lot of these don't have emergency brakes. So, you know, like, with what happened with Robinhood and GameStop, and how they stopped trading, you know, whether you think that's a good thing or a bad thing, that's another discussion. But you know, there were sort of emergency brakes built into the system, so to speak.

Erica D'Eramo 32:58

I won't comment. It's a different podcast episode.

Karen Scarbrough 33:04

But in crypto currencies, you don't have those emergency breaks. So, you know, that is something to consider as well is that you just have to be really responsible and aware of what you're getting into and be prepared with what you're putting up for risk to be there. So, yeah.

Erica D'Eramo 33:28

Kind of buyer beware.

Karen Scarbrough 33:30

Yeah, exactly. I mean, I, it's I think these systems have a tremendous opportunity and innovation to make things better than existing systems, but, you know, at the same time, it requires people to be aware of because, yeah, there's still just so much in flux. So I think the better you can promote what's actually going on, as opposed to buy this token then, you know, retire next week, is all the better because it's, it's amazing what's being built but the buyers need to be just as informed in this as they would in a lot of other undertakings and financial systems.

Erica D'Eramo 34:20

So when you talk about cryptocurrency, and we talk about different coins, what, what are some of the different types of cryptocurrency out there right now? And how would one decide? I mean, are they all the same? Or is there some differentiator? Is it just like gambling or how would you make a decision about where to focus?

Karen Scarbrough 34:45

Yeah, there's so there's a couple of different categories there. We already mentioned the the protocol tokens, so the ones that are rewarded to the miners that people pay transaction fees in, like Bitcoin and Ethereum. And then more than that, there's the tokens that can be built in the smart contracts and the toe... in the code. So I mentioned earlier there's cryptocurrencies now that are pegged to fiat and one of those is USDC, and that institution basically keeps US dollars in a bank on a one to one basis of the the tokens that they issue. The other stable token that's interesting is called Dai. And it's D, A, I. It's made by a company that called MakerDAO. And I hesitate to say that because it's actually a decentralized system where, you know, if MakerDAO actually went down tomorrow, you'd still have Dai. So and how that works is you lock collateral in a smart contract that based on the ratios that are decided by that team, you basically received Dai, which is pegged one to one with the US dollar. So there's, gosh, there's over $2 billion tokenized in Dai now that are pegged to the US dollar, and they're collateralized with things like Ether and a couple of other cryptocurrencies on the Ethereum blockchain. And a good kind of lead in is, I mentioned the company, MakerDAO that's maintaining this. So there's also a maker token, which functions as what they call a governance token. So those tokens allow you to vote in protocol changes. So like, for example, if you wanted to decrease the collateralization rate, you could buy some MKR token and participate in that voting structure. And, yeah, there's also, I guess, a broader category of that is like utility tokens, that power basically like a specific network. There's a company called Brave, which has made a browser that has built-in ad blockers. And essentially, if you are shown ads like you can be re... you can receive micro micro payments in their token. So people have made specific tokens for their application, they've made these governance tokens, there's stable tokens, and then you might have also heard of these other tokens called non fungible tokens. And basically, the interesting point about those is instead of like, a token being a part of a group, so like, for example, if I trade you one Dai, my one Dai is equal to your one Dai. Whereas if we have a non fungible token, what they call NFTs, those tokens can represent specific things. So like people are making them represent things like a song or a piece of artwork. And it's basically like a digital certificate of ownership of a specific asset. So...

Erica D'Eramo 38:29

That's fascinating. I knew nothing about that, actually.

Karen Scarbrough 38:33

Yeah, they're gaining in popularity. I feel like they're the beanie babies of the next generation in some ways.

Erica D'Eramo 38:43

So I'm curious about another element that I, you know, you hear a lot in the news, and that is the environmental impact of some of the mining and just kind of the power requirements and energy usage. So in this world where there's so much discussion about net zero and emissions and in power consumption, what, what is the implication for blockchain or cryptocurrency?

Karen Scarbrough 39:16

That's a good question. So I'll try to keep it short and we can dive into more things that we'd be more interested in. So to dive in a bit more about how mining works, this proof of work mining where you have to extend computational power. Basically how that works is you make random guesses on a computer over and over again. They use a algorithm called hashing, which is basically something that takes in an input and gives you a randomized output. And it's an output that can't be like backwards computed. So, anyways, this hashing algorithm, every time a Bitcoin block, or a Bitcoin transaction, excuse me, happens on average it takes 8.7 quintillion hashes to produce that transaction. So that is a ton of hashing algorithms. I mean, imagine if you like ran 8.7 quintillion addition, you know, sequences on your own computer. Like, it would take a lot of power. And then when you add something...

Erica D'Eramo 40:35

I don't even know how many zeros are in that number.

Karen Scarbrough 40:39

Yeah, it's a lot. But anyways, that goes back to like the computing power to that's required for it. And what's fascinating is, it's not that the production of the block requires these hashes, those hashes are there so that a miner can't just come and randomly produce a block, like, basically, it happens that as network usage goes up, like the mining will go up or down. So if you have more miners, the mining will get harder. If you have less miners, then the the mining will get easier. And it's kind of maintained that way. But that just gives you a frame of reference for like, right now, I think that calculation was done at the end of last year. It's 8.7 quintillion hashes per transaction on average. But that's a lot. And so there's wild estimates out there because you can't necessarily calculate the power consumption in detail. Because if I'm a miner, and I use some equipment to make my hashes, I may have completely different hashes, hashing equipment than what you have. And maybe I'm using renewable energy for my hashing, and you're using, you know, coal, or whatever's cheapest in your area. So you see, like wildly different estimates on, oh, Bitcoin takes as much energy as the country of Ireland, and then it's like, oh, no, they take so much more energy than that, it's more like, you know, 1/4 of Germany or something, all these different estimates that kind of swing wildly. But it goes back to we don't know all the mining equipment, we don't know what power is being used. But we know it's taking a lot of hashes to make these things happen. But that is where the move to what I alluded to earlier, proof of stake gets interesting because proof of stake takes out that need to do all those hashes, because instead of that power consumption from miners proving integrity, instead, they have their Ether or whatever cryptocurrency depending on the network locked in a smart contract, saying, I'll make a block for you. Here's a bunch of money that says I'm probably not going to, you know, produce a bad block. So, you know, let me participate as a miner basically. And instead of mi... at those proof of stake miners participating as a competition, what effectively happens is they're randomly selected to produce a block. So you basically lock your collateral in a smart contract, you may have done that with millions of other people. I don't know if it's a million yet. But it's it's good that the numbers are getting up there. But anyway, it's like you're randomly selected and if you win the block what you have to produce is a block. Because you don't have to do all that hashing, it's really simple. It's like less than 1% of the energy consumption that's involved in proof of work with all the hashing that has to take place. So I think in the long run, that proof of work will go away. And I don't know, like one challenge with the Bitcoin network is, you know, and I am no expert, but I haven't seen as much of a path to get there as some of the other networks that are out there. Like there's some networks that have already have started day one with proof of work or proof of stake. There's networks like Ethereum that have said we're going to transition and they've already started it. But the environmental concern comes from that proof of work, but again, it's a, it was a trade off in the beginning in that they had to have a way for miners to have that skin in the game, so that they participated with integrity. But obviously, you know, the world doesn't want us to waste that much energy on, you know, random guessing. And computers. That's, I mean, it's not ideal. So that's where the biggest concern comes from.

Erica D'Eramo 45:23

Interesting. And are you seeing any sort of regulation or lobbying for this or activism around pushing cryptocurrency and blockchain to a more environmentally friendly model?

Karen Scarbrough 45:41

I think you do see a lot from people who are critics of public networks in general. And the, there's also been studies that have said 34% of mining and public networks that use proof of work actually already use renewable energy sources as well. So I mean, probably the biggest concern is just what Bitcoin is going to do, because I, there realistically are no more networks that are coming to light that are using proof of work, because it's not the best design anymore. And then...

Erica D'Eramo 46:29

Interesting.

Karen Scarbrough 46:29

...Ethereum has its transition plans. So the probably the biggest question from a future standpoint is just what's going to happen with Bitcoin and proof of work?

Erica D'Eramo 46:41

What is the market share that Bitcoin has, if they're one of the key players?

Karen Scarbrough 46:47

Well, I mean, as a value proposition, they, you know, obviously have the largest market cap, but from a transaction activity perspective, gosh, there's there's like 10x or more happening on other blockchains. So I think, you know, Bitcoin people are interested in for the price, for this opportunity to be a world reserve currency, if it ends up in that way. But realistically, the actual activity and and people actually, moving cryptocurrencies from here to there, building in logic, actually using it on a day to day basis, is happening on other networks. So, where that leaves proof of work, we still don't know, because the the Bitcoin network was, I mean, all these networks are designed in slightly different ways than another like, you know, you don't realistically have smart contracts on Bitcoin. I think there's some people in Bitcoin who would challenge that and say, you can do a smart contract on Bitcoin if you really want to, but it's, it's not the same as other networks. So, yeah, it just leaves a big question of a network that big, with that much value, you know, what's the the transition plan? And, yeah, well, we'll see where it ends up in the long run, in many ways. So another thing to consider, and it gets really interesting, is that as Bitcoin mining and this, like hashing function got such a rise in popularity, the hardware has gotten better. So there's whole hardware industries that have made specific hardware for Bitcoin mining, and it's also gotten more efficient in a lot of ways in what it's doing. So I think, overall, the kind of exciting thing to think about with a lot of these systems is that because they're open, as long as people find value there, innovators will innovate. And, you know, theoretically make it better. So I don't think there's any malicious parties out there that want to maintain proof of work, because it's a better system, and, you know, we got to have that. I think, maybe that's a little bit optimistic to me, but I think that the free market is intelligent enough to, or, you know, not that they're unintelligent, but you know, that there's that genuine drive to like, make it better. It's just figuring out the solution, I guess you can say. And that looks different for different networks.

Erica D'Eramo 49:38

And steering the ship probably looks different for, you know, for something like Bitcoin that, like you said, has attracted a lot of attention and very high amounts of, of just monetary investment. Might be a bit harder to steer the ship and make changes, but...

Karen Scarbrough 49:59

Yeah.

Erica D'Eramo 50:00

So. I, one of the primary reasons that I really wanted to invite you on to the podcast to talk about this is because I feel like there's a perception that cryptocurrency and Bitcoin and blockchain are all sort of the domain of the tech bros and you sort of envision like a white dude in Silicon Valley, talking about, you know, mining for coins, I guess. And I feel like it can maybe be intimidating for people who don't envision themselves that way, or don't feel that this is a space that they would be welcome in. So tell me a little bit about your thoughts on that.

Karen Scarbrough 50:50

There's so many components to this industry now that I think on the spectrum of, you know, whether your strength is in creativity and design, or communication, or organization and project management, or as a programmer, or a developer, like that's a place for excelling in all those areas. So it's definitely, from what I've seen, you know, it's not just the technologists' domain anymore. And it's really exciting because it's more than just a technology, it's a financial system, it's a new design. It's about user experience, as well, which, as designers will tell you, that's just a whole domain in and of itself. So there's just so many components that you can participate in, that I think people that are interested, you know, spending a little time in the ecosystem, just maybe listening to some different podcasts or reading some articles. There's lots of companies hiring and it's using the skills that you have to make the industry as it is better. Because it definitely needs more strength in it to refine what's happening. So yeah, there's a lot of different ways to do that now, I'd say.

Erica D'Eramo 52:28

And probably wou... that the industry, I guess, I guess we could call it an industry, would benefit from the diversity of thought of having people from a variety of backgrounds across the gender spectrum involved in, in sort of this development and the future.

Karen Scarbrough 52:46

Yeah, I'd say so. And I think programming, developers, technology in general, you know, the, the repres... representation of women is, you know, unbalanced and for for different reasons, but what's absolutely fantastic about this industry is that, you know, most of it is open source, if not all of it. And that really breaks down kind of the barriers to entry of who wants to get involved. So like, in comparison, you know, an industry like we've worked in like oil and gas, if you want to learn how a piece of equipment works, like you got to go talk to all these different people, it may or may not be written down. What's wonderful about public blockchains, in general, is that code's open for anybody to go and read and spend some time on to understand. So I think that can open up a lot of doors that haven't been as easy in other industries.

Erica D'Eramo 53:50

Yeah, you don't need a helicopter to go check it out.

Karen Scarbrough 53:55

Yeah, exactly.

Erica D'Eramo 53:56

Yeah. So if somebody wanted to learn more, you mentioned podcasts. What you know, where would you point someone to if they wanted to do some more research and maybe dip their toe?

Karen Scarbrough 54:10

Yeah. So the podcasts out there that are great. There's one called Bankless that that does some great overviews. There's another called Zero Knowledge that gets into a lot of the cryptography side. It's it's fantastic if you want to learn the cryptography but if you're just starting out in blockchain there's also ones like Epicenter. Another podcast is called Unchained. And all of them to some degree use a little bit of their own lingo for blockchain, but there's been a lot of people posting articles on Medium. There's a, there's a great newsletter called Week in Ethereum, that gives an overview from a developer perspective and then, you know, also what's happening in the industry. And yeah, I mean, it's sometimes it's hard to differentiate what's happening from a, an article point of view versus under the hood, with developers and technologies, but I would say the best source of information is trying to get it directly from people building things, rather than, like third party sources that are that are writing on them because there's so much blogs and articles from people who are building applications or protocols. Like that's really the the best place to start. And this industry in general does do a pretty decent job at, you know, what people are working on they'll write about or put go on podcasts about, so, you know, like...

Erica D'Eramo 56:01

Like we're doing today.

Karen Scarbrough 56:03

Yeah, exactly. But I would say definitely, it's kind of hard to decipher what's going on, if you go to a mainstream media outlet. I think there's a lot of confusion at that level. But if you go to the source, there's a lot more clarity.

Erica D'Eramo 56:19

And how about organizations? Are there any sort of organizations that are focused on this that people could find some community in?

Karen Scarbrough 56:28

Yeah, I know almost in every major city there's either some kind of Bitcoin meetup or Ethereum meetup that different people host. And then there's a lot of projects, too, that just have an open chat forum and applications like Telegram or Discord, to ask questions as well. And yeah, I mean, because this is a online first kind of community, I think there's a lot of opportunity that if you don't feel like you're in the right city, you can actually connect with people a lot more easily than you probably think, just by the nature of what it is.

Erica D'Eramo 57:15

Yeah, that's, that's really interesting. So I think we've exhausted sort of all the areas that I wanted to explore but I'm interested if there were any parting thoughts that you wanted to leave us with on, you know, blockchain, cryptocurrency and, and the future?

Karen Scarbrough 57:37

Um, I guess I would say, like I got involved in 2017 was when I first started working in the industry. And I have just continuously been amazed at how many problems they've that that different developers and researchers have solved and made better and not that everything's perfect yet. But I think there's just such an amazing room to grow. And you've got lots of brilliant minds working on this stuff. So if anything, I hope the discussion kind of led people away from price tickers, and more interested in actually what's going on. Because it's worth it to just spend some time and understand because it's definitely has huge opportunities for the future.

Erica D'Eramo 58:26

Yeah, absolutely. This has been fascinating for me, and really, really insightful. So I appreciate you dispelling quite a few myths and giving us a bit more vocabulary and understanding to to help maybe introduce us and do a bit more research after this. Actually, I'm probably going to start digging into some of those other areas to learn more. So thank you, Karen. We appreciate it.

Karen Scarbrough 58:53

Awesome. Thanks for having me.

Erica D'Eramo 58:55

Thanks. And for our listeners, you can find more information about Two Piers on our website at twopiersconsulting.com. And you can follow us on all of our social media channels. So Facebook, Twitter, Instagram and LinkedIn and we look forward to seeing you at the next podcast.

Diversity on the Board

Photo courtesy of Unsplash.

Transcript Below

Erica D'Eramo 0:06

Hello, and welcome to the Two Piers Podcast. Today we will have a special guest joining us from the business world. His name is Cliffe Killam, and he recently took the helm as Chairman of the Board of the Laredo Chamber of Commerce. And he has quite the story to share with us.

So Cliffe, welcome to the podcast.

Cliffe Killam 0:38

Thank you, Erica, for for having me. Excited, excited to be here.

Erica D'Eramo 0:41

Yeah, we appreciate it. So we really want to explore some of the stories that you have to share with us. But first, I wanted to get a little background on you. So tell us a little bit about yourself.

Cliffe Killam 0:56

Sure, yeah, happy to share that. I'm the president of Killam Development and Killam Oil Company. And we're a family owned, private family owned business. And I work here with my my father, we're based in Laredo, Texas. And we've been in business for over 100 years, and I'm the fourth generation. And my brother also works here as well in our field operations. And, yeah, we, you know, in terms of a little bit about me, I sort of have a little bit of a different background for the oil and gas industry. I have an undergraduate degree in English literature from Boston University, after I got out of college, worked as a field hand and kind of doing manual labor out there in the oil field. And said yeah, this is kind of a chance for me to kind of put the books down and kind of get my hands dirty. And that was a great experience, met some great people that way. And then I ended up going to the University of Texas, getting a master's degree there in a program called Energy and Mineral Resources, which at the time was housed in the petroleum engineering college and later got moved to the Jackson School of Geosciences. And that program is basically an interdisciplinary program that pulls from all the different disciplines that might be helpful to have a career in the oil and gas field. And from there, I moved to Houston, worked for a company called Wood Mackenzie, and did research and consulting there, and then got a job for a company called Harrison Lovegrove. The first day I started working there, we were, it was announced that we were acquired by Standard Chartered Bank, so became part of their corporate finance group. And we are one of the called top three, international M&A for in the upstream oil and gas business. And after that, did that for a little while, and then finally came home to, back to Laredo, and have been working here for about a decade.

Erica D'Eramo 3:00

Wow. So that's quite the journey. And I have to imagine that that journey has probably been through a lot of kind of male dominated spaces, a lot of oil and gas that I'm hearing. So that's what makes this kind of story that we wanted to talk to you about all the more interesting. So you took the helm as Chairman of the Board of the Laredo Chamber of Commerce, and you made a bit of a splash with some of your leadership decisions there. So tell us a little bit about that.

Cliffe Killam 3:35

Sure. I, I'm assuming you're referring to, I ended up appointing 10, 10 of my Board of Director appointees were all, were all female professionals, female leaders. And yeah, so really, really excited about that. You know, you know, basically every every chair gets an opportunity each year to, to make 10 appointments. And so I got my, my daughter was born on September 18th. And I was made the chairman on October 1st. And so we're, you know, so my, that was sort of in the back of my mind, and I went to the to our office over there and sitting sitting at the table with some of the staff and we were talking about, well, you know, what are some of the things I have to do now as chair and so we also have to go through these appointees. So I said, "Well, why don't we go, you know, kind of work on that?" And so as we're going through, you know, in my mind, I was trying to find, you know, people that were, you know, highly qualified professionals that also represented a diverse, diverse elements of our local economy. And so that was really what I was trying to do. And so I started kind of listing the names of people that I had worked with in some capacity on other boards are professionally and people that were highly accomplished. And so, you know, getting this cross section of the logistics industry and, you know, the real estate industry and, you know, healthcare and, you know, other other elements of, of the economy. And so, you know, we, we kind of looked kind of, as we kind of listed the names there, they just so happened to all, all six of them were were, you know, female leaders, and it wasn't really, you know, just sort of happened to shake out that way. And then that's where I kind of paused. I was reflecting on that, and I kind of looked up, and in the board room, there, you know, we have the, the Laredo Chamber has been around for over 100 years, and they have all the, you know, all the photographs of all the different previous chairs. And I asked, "Well, you know, how many, how many women have been chairs in the past?" And, you know, it's only been like, maybe, three, three or so, and, and then I was thinking about my daughter, and thinking about how she needs more female, you know, I want her to have more, you know, female role models in her life, and, and, and more, but, you know, more so. And so, yes, then we're there. Then I said, "Well, you know, in terms of the next four appointees that we have to make, you know," I said, "has anyone ever appointed 10 women before in our history, to this, to the Chamber board?" And so they said, you know, "No, that's never happened before." And I said, "Well, let's, let's make it happen." And so then I kind of asked, the staff just said, you know, you know, "I also don't want to be blinded, I don't want it to just be people that I know, you know, are there other other female leaders that are supporting the organization in some capacity on a grassroots level, that are really putting the time in that, you know, maybe I just happened to not know them very well. And that you think would be, you know, strong additions." So they made some additional recommendations. And that's kind of how we came up with our, our 10 appointees. And it's, it's really, you know, had a big a big impact. And, you know, even more so than that I, you know, could have imagined, and I can elaborate on that as well, if you'd like.

Erica D'Eramo 7:34

Yeah, absolutely. Let's explore that a little bit. But first, I want to understand why, why was it important to you to increase female representation? You kind of mentioned role models, etc. But was there anything else in that decision?

Cliffe Killam 7:53

You know, I wanted to, you know, I really, there was, there's primarily two things in my mind at the time. One was, I was thinking about my daughter, and you know so, she was sort of an inspiration for me to, and I wanted, and then in turn, use that so that she could be inspired. And I thought it was important, you know, when I was thinking, you know, 5, 10, 20 years down the road, you know, I hope that there's going to be more female chairs, photographs of them, you know, that had previously led the Chamber in the years to come. And so it's important for me to help to, you know, create some of those, you know, pathways. And then in addition, I also wanted to signal to the marketplace, that we were going to be doing things differently. And so, this was one way to basically say, we're going to we're going to do things there, you know, this is this is at the same thing I would say, too is, I mean, I, to certain degree, I, to be candid, I think I maybe didn't fully appreciate the impact that this would have in the community and at large. You know, I guess it's, you put 10 men on there, people wouldn't think twice. And so for me, I said, well, put ten women, I mean, it's, it's, I didn't really fully appreciate, you know, how that would make people feel in a positive way. And and really, it was, it's become a learning experience for me as I've had different female leaders come and confide in me and talk to me about different situations. And so it's really, it's not something that I think people often openly talk about, but I guess because of this, it really created a some additional conversations that helped me to appreciate I guess, how much of an impact it had.

Erica D'Eramo 9:57

Yeah, that's that's really kind of moving actually. So I, I'm interested in this, in this kind of selection that you went through, you spoke a little bit about your selection criteria, but I'm interested in how you think it might have differed, in this case, from how board members have been selected in the past that you ended up with a slate already kind of starting out with six members, or six selections that were already female leaders. So how do you think your selection criteria in this go around, may have differed?

Cliffe Killam 10:38

Well, you know, I don't want to I mean, what I would say is, I can share with you how I approached it, and, and I can't really speak to, you know, how other people approached it, but I can share with you mine, which was, it was important for me, to, to, the Laredo Chamber of Commerce is meant to represent as a non, it's a nonprofit that represents the business interests of, of its local economy, of the local, you know, the community that it represents. And so whatever is that kind of cross section of the economy, you want to find different folks that represent those different lines of businesses in there. So I made sure we had representation, I wanted to make sure we had representation in the logistics industry, and we in the real estate industry, I wanted to make sure that we had various educational institutions represented, higher education, as well as on a high school level that we had the, you know, hotel, hospitality industry represented, financial services. And, and so those are some of the different, you know, different industries that we had. And so I just picked different people and, you know, that either, you know, own their own business, or had been in a leadership role within a company. And, and that was sort of the criteria, and many of these ladies have, you know, I had worked with in some capacity in other nonprofits, or professionally and people that I respected and, and I thought, you know, they would add a lot of value, and really were, you know, got things done. And so that was, that was what I was looking for: people that can help. You know, you as the chair, you're, you're only there for, at least at the later Chamber of Commerce, you're only there for one year. And so I wanted to find people that would help me be more effective as a leader.

Erica D'Eramo 12:50

Yeah, that sounds like a really robust set of kind of selection criteria. So I'm, I'm curious, you mentioned that there's been a really positive impact, positive feedback. And I do want to explore that a bit more. But first, have you been confronted with any resistance around this decision?

Cliffe Killam 13:12

Um, you know, I, I wouldn't say that there was any resistance, I think was generally received extremely positive. I would say that there's maybe even a handful of people that approached me that it's not that they were resistant to it, but maybe they had a harder time putting it into, into context or into you know, perspective, and kind of understanding the decision. And so in certain ways, they've kind of said things that, you know, under, underminded, you know, sort of that decision, in a way, and again, I don't think there was any kind of, you know, malice per se, I think sometimes maybe it's just a generational thing, or it's, they just have a hard time understanding it, so, there were some comments that we're, you know, kind of oriented towards, you know, you know, sort of saying, oh, aren't aren't you, you know, you know, sort of having all these women around you, you know, isn't that such a nice, you know, sort of, you know, sort of more of a, I guess, I guess you say sexist way, you know, kind of oriented that way. And again, I think, you know, these are kind of typically older, you know, older people, I guess just sorta maybe had a hard time and I've had and it's not just from men, I've also heard from women. Very similar, you know, type of way of describing it, and I just think maybe, I don't think, you know, maybe I just sort of see you know, and see the best people, so I just I don't necessarily think they're coming in with a negative way of looking at it. I think it's just something that's a little harder for them to, you know, it's more of a generational type thing.

Erica D'Eramo 15:14

Yeah. And normalizing kind of seeing women in positions of power is, is part of the journey, I think, right, that we normalize it. And sometimes when I hear you talk about this, this story, or this, this journey that you guys have been on, it makes me think about this quote from Ruth Bader Ginsburg, and she said, "When I'm sometimes asked, 'When will there be enough women on the Supreme Court?'", basically, and she says, you know, "When there are nine." And people are shocked, and then she recounts, you know, but there, there have been nine men plenty of times, and no one ever raised a question about it. So when we normalize just seeing all men, all women, and nobody blinks an eye at it, that's when we kind of know that we've reached equality, perhaps, but just normalizing seeing women in positions of authority and power, I think, is part of the journey.

Cliffe Killam 16:11

For sure, for sure, that's, you know, we're you know, I mean, again, I go back to my daughter, you know, you know, so I mean, I want her to be this, you know, kick ass, you know, person, and let her, you know, I want her to do all the, you know, all the things that she wants to do in life and accomplish, and I think, you know, feel empowered, and to do the things that she wants to do with her life. And so, you know, I, like you said, I mean, there shouldn't be any boundaries or limitations for that. And so, I think that, you know, in order to, you know, create the world we want to live in, we got to do something about it now, you know, and so, and that's just kind of one small way, they just sort of, as you say, kind of normalize things are kind of, you know, it shouldn't be, I mean, in many ways, it shouldn't be a big deal, you know, and so and so I hope that over time that that's, you know, and, and also, I mean, I, you know, Laredo is a, I mean, it's got its own distinct culture and values. And so there's a little bit of machismo here and stuff. So, you know, I think also that kind of, you know, just sort of, you know, change, changing things up a little bit, and like you said, you know, normalizing those kinds of things.

Erica D'Eramo 17:23

It's interesting, because I think it's, it's actually pretty consistent across the US that purchasing power in many households is, in many cases held by women. Interestingly, and so, you know, what, to what extent did women's participation in the economy kind of play into your decisions?

Cliffe Killam 17:53

Um, you know, not so much. I mean, I, you know, I was really looking for accomplished executives, and, or people that represented other institutions that had leadership roles in different institutions. So, you know, like educational institutions, or maybe other nonprofits and to build those relationships. So it was, it was, it was more about, you know, finding, finding people that, that really were effective in, in making, making things happen. So that's, that's really what I was kind of looking for is that was kind of the main criteria for me was, you know, finding effective managers, leaders, people that are involved in the community, that are going to put the time in to volunteer, and ultimately, what, this is a volunteer organization, that they're going to be committed to helping us be better. And, and so, you know, this organization focuses on a lot of it is very much oriented towards government affairs. And it's on policy issues on a local level, a state level and on a federal level. And so we know we've written like, as an example, the Laredo is the largest, largest inland port in the country. $300 billion worth the trade coming through here. 18,000 trucks on the road, but Laredo also, you know, but under the previous administration, the bridges here were shut down for non-ess, quote, unquote, non-essential travel. And so you know, Mexican nationals coming to the US is a big part of our economy in terms of tourism and dollars spent, but we wrote letters in support saying, hey, look, this is really affecting the whole border region, and this is really important to us or when USMCA was happening, you know, write, you know, writing letters on that, having meetings on that. So those are the kinds of different issues, you know, with, with the, with the COVID happening now, you know, we're writing letters to and having meetings with our mayor and county judge and our governor, and talking about, you know, hey, you know, this is affecting bars and restaurants and hospitality industries and these other businesses, and, you know, what you're calling non-essential, you know, our people's livelihoods. And so, really just, you know, our job, you know, I think of the the mission of the Chamber is to, is to listen, support and advocate for our members and the business community. So that's, that's, and that was, so that's kind of, I was looking for people that were going to help, help me fulfill that mission.

Erica D'Eramo 20:55

Yeah, so really action oriented?

Cliffe Killam 20:58

Yes.

Erica D'Eramo 21:00

So what benefits have you seen so far, what impacts have you seen, I guess, of the, this kind of fresh slate of, of appointees?

Cliffe Killam 21:10

One of the things that I'm super excited about, and I was not expecting was that you the, the women that I appointed on there, you know, they got super fired up, and kind of, you know, it kind of really galvanized them. And so now, we're creating a Women Leadership Program as part of the Chamber. And so I'm really excited about that. They are, they're bringing in the other female members that are part of the Chamber. And so what they're doing is, they're looking at creating mentorship programs for female professionals, they're looking at also doing a speaker series to bring in different, you know, female leaders and thought leaders to come into town and speak to a female audience, but also a broader, you know, broader audience as well, but already, you know, kind of thematically on on some of those different issues. And then also looking at creating some fundraising events as well around recognizing female business leaders, and community leaders. So this has sort of emerged, it's this kind of really, you know, this, this import, now important part of the Chamber, and I'm absolutely thrilled about it, because it's, it's, it's my hope, and I think that will be is that this is now going to be a part of what we do in perpetuity. And so we're going to work really hard to maintain that. So I hope that, you know, my daughter will be able to be, you know, mentored through this program, you know, you know, 20 years from now and be able to, you know, go to some of these different, you know, lecture series, and all these other things are happening. So we're, you know, they've really, it's been really embraced by the membership. And it's actually helped us to recruit more female members and professionals. And so it's just this this virtuous cycle has been created. So it's really, it's really been very cool.

Erica D'Eramo 23:27

That's awesome to hear. That's really heartening. I think a lot of times when we hear stories like this, or just any effort towards increased diversity, and representation, there's always the challenge of like, is this a philanthropic effort? Are we doing this to be nice to women? And so I wanted to hear a little bit more about that, like, what are the actual business impacts of this? And it sounds like this is not just to be nice to women, right? This is actually improving the accessibility of the Chamber of Commerce and improving the operations. Have you seen any examples of kind of the way you've done things previously, versus the way you're doing them now changing?

Cliffe Killam 24:16

Well, I think that yeah, I mean, I would not I, you know, I, I'm, I'm, you know, I really just wanted the best, the best people to be part of the organization. And that's really, for me, that's the only thing I really kind of mattered, it sort of ended up happening that this sort of thematically, you know, kind of came together. And it's been really great to see that, you know, as I mentioned, you know, this Women Leadership Program has been created. I would say that, the, they're the, the, a lot of the female board members are, I think, just really fired up and really vested in there. And I think it also has inspired some of the, you know, male board members too and got them excited to see, hey, we're, we're changing things up. So I think, you know, overall, it's really just kind of helped to create more commitment and more more drive into getting things done and, and, you know, like many businesses and nonprofits across the country, I mean, it, COVID has been, you know, devastating. So, I think at a time when there's been a health crisis in our country, in certain ways, you know, economic crisis, and, and, and has also affected, you know, families and people in so many other ways, the isolation and so forth. I mean, I think this has really, you know, given us a sense of focus and purpose. And so I think people are just really excited to make a difference through the Chamber. And that's really been one of my goals is to, you know for the Chamber to become a really, not just some kind of a ribbon cutting organization, but to really be a platform to effect meaningful, positive change. And so that's, that's really been what I've been, you know, really focused on trying to deliver on.

Erica D'Eramo 26:27

Yeah, that, I mean, that's very inspiring, you're making me want to sign up for my local Chamber of Commerce. So hopefully, you know, we, this podcast gets heard by other people who wouldn't previously consider that and would, might think to themselves, like I could be a benefit to that type of organization, and I just never thought about it before. So thank you for that. So I'm interested in what the transition onto the board looked like, a lot of times, I think, and maybe, you know, either confirm or correct for me, um, organizations, like any other type of business are often self perpetuating with sort of bringing in informal contacts or, you know, people that you knew from your you know, your, your clubs, or your school or your friends or your net, your close network, people who look like us, act like us, are in the same circles as us. And sometimes it can be a bit self perpetuating. And that's how we end up with maybe like the boys club mentality of people that already are in our circle getting appointed to some of these roles. So in this case, you went kind of beyond your circle, and brought in new people who maybe didn't have that informal network. Have you found that there were any sort of trans, there was any transition support that was helpful for people coming into this that might not have sort of been operating in this circle before?

Cliffe Killam 28:12

You know, um, not really, I would say that, not really, I would say that, you know, all these women that were appointed, I mean, they're all very accomplished and experienced, and they've been on, you know, boards before and have been in, you know, high, you know, in executive type. So, if anything, I'm asking them for advice, you know, so, you know, I'm saying, you know, this is, you know, this, this is sort of a new, newer thing for me. I mean, I, this is the first time I've been chair of a, of a nonprofit. And so, so yeah, I, no, I kind of come in with a sense of more of humility and asking them, you know, you know, you know, how can I, you know, run the meetings more effectively, or how can I, you know, you know, how am I doing, you know, and how are we doing and kind of, you know, trying to chart out these different, you know, milestones and things we want to accomplish as an organization. So, you know, more than anything, I think it's really me, you know, just kind of talking to them getting their feedback to be quite, you know, candid and so, you know, the, really that's, you know, there's been probably one or two people on there that are, though my appointees that maybe are a little bit less experienced. But, so, you know, I wanted also to strike a balance. I mean, I didn't, you know, I wanted to also have some women in there that may be, you know, they were sort of, you know, rising stars, if you will, and so, you know, they you know, give put them, you know, give them an opportunity to to you know, get involved, rather than kind of, you know, sort of having to, you know, maybe takes longer someone's, you know, life, whatever to get into some of these different organizations on a senior level. So. So there was a little bit of that, and I and I, and I'm assuming that, you know, there's a little bit of internal mentoring there and so forth, but they're also holding their own too. And they're bringing fresh, you know, fresh ideas, to, to the meetings and to kind of some of the different initiatives that we're working on. So it's been, it's been really gratifying. So if anything, I've been trying to listen and learn from them. Actually,

Erica D'Eramo 30:46

Yeah. Wow, that sounds great. And that internal mentoring can be so valuable as well.

So I'm, I'm curious soon what you think the barriers to entry were before? Like, why is this the first time that you've had a board of? Or that you've had a full slate of appointees that included so many women?

Cliffe Killam 31:11

You know, I'm you know, it's hard for me to, to answer that, you know, I think that I don't want to cast any aspersions or anything like that, or make any assumptions. But I mean, I think that I'm sure it's, as you mentioned, I mean, sometimes people make choices that they're more comfortable with, or maybe they're more used to, or this kind of cultural things, I guess, sometimes. But, you know, I really wasn't focused on, you know, why people made those decisions in the past, I was really kind of focused on, on on the future and helping to, to make a positive impact, you know, going forward. So that was really kind of the mentality I was trying to take and just just try to be, you know, positive and really try to make a make a strong impact there.

Erica D'Eramo 32:19

Yeah, that does sound very positive. So do you think that this will be a turning point, kind of for a bit of sustainable change or representation? Do you think that maybe this won't be such a rare occurrence going forward?

Cliffe Killam 32:35

Well, I hope that's the case. I mean, that's what you know, that's what I was so encouraged, by this effort to create this new Women's Leadership Program, because, you know, the idea is that that could be coming in on an ongoing program, so there's their, you know, our, our board members, and our members are putting a lot of time and energy into creating a mentorship program and, and bringing in speakers and looking at, you know, recognizing different female leaders, so, you know, putting in sort of the foundation for that, so that this becomes a strong part of the Chamber, going forward, and, and therefore, kind of institutionalizing that in a way where, you know, it will be, it's just going to be a normal part of, part of the, of the nonprofit.

Erica D'Eramo 33:36

And love that, yeah, I love that idea of kind of institutionalizing, putting in the systems in place, so that it's not just left up to our human brains that are obviously subject to our own biases or heuristics. So I think that's great.

Cliffe Killam 33:54

Yeah, I think, you know, sometimes it's, you know, just to help you create that, you know, consistency, and sometimes people don't necessarily, I mean it's not that they, it just helps to reinforce that, you know, like you said, it helps to put it, you know, kind of structurally into, into the organization.

Erica D'Eramo 34:12

Yeah, absolutely. So, were there any, you know, final thoughts that you wanted to close with? And we really appreciate your time here, and this has been really insightful. So, any any last, like leaving thoughts that you want to leave us with?

Cliffe Killam 34:29

Well, you know, I think I, you know, like I said, it's been very insightful for me to, to you know, make these choices and then seeing you know, how how it was received in the marketplace and, you know, it's really helped to help me kind of enlighten, enlighten me more. I've had a, I've had an employee, come up to me, and tell me how much, it really meant to her and it really got her excited. And also, you know, wanted, wanting to join the Chamber. And she talked to me about her sister who's a doctor in Austin and how, you know, how people always think she's the nurse, you know, or she's the, you know, assistent in some way. And so, you know, I think that that's, you know, those aren't, those aren't conversations prior to this that anybody normally had with me or, you know, shared, shared those kind of things with me. And so I wasn't really as aware of some of the different challenges that that that women may face. And so, for me, it became a really powerful experience, you know, to have different women, you know, confide in me and, and talk to me and share different stories and how it was, you know, how that decision was so meaningful to them. And I don't think I really fully appreciated the impact until afterwards. And so for me, it's been very moving. And, and so I've really wanted to sort of embrace it. And, you know, like I said, I want to be the best leader that I can be, the best father that I can be, the best husband that I can be. And so I mean, I think that, it's, you know, this is hopefully it was, it's just one on one small step. And so, and I hope that I'm really excited to see what future things happen in the Chamber and excited to help you know, you know, be a part of that.

Erica D'Eramo 36:47

Yeah, that sounds just so impactful and valuable, as a business leader, because this is one part of your life, but you're, you're a business leader, in the other parts of your life, as well. So to have access to those perspectives, just seems so valuable and enriching as you go through your career. So I'm curious for anyone listening to this, who thinks, oh, I might want to get involved in my own Chamber of Commerce, what would you recommend? And where can people find more information about the Laredo Chamber of Commerce?

Cliffe Killam 37:22

Sure, yeah. If you can just go to the laredochamber.com and you can look, you know, look us up there. And then you can also always Google the US Chamber of Commerce, and most most communities, most cities have a Chamber of Commerce. And yeah, I definitely recommend looking into that. There's a lot of great programs there to help champion you know, the business and and also get involved in, you know, different policy issues that affect businesses. And it's a, it's a great, it's a great American institution, and nonprofit. So yeah, definitely encourage everyone to, to look into it and get involved.

Erica D'Eramo 38:11

Awesome, thanks, Cliffe. For our part, we appreciate our listeners tuning into this and they can find any information that they're looking for regarding Two Piers on our website as usual, which is twopiersconsulting.com. And then they can follow us and our stories and future podcasts on any of our social media platforms. So Facebook, LinkedIn, Twitter, Instagram, we're on on all of them. And yeah, thanks for spending some time with us today. Cliffe, we really appreciate it.

Cliffe Killam 38:46

Thanks so much, Erica. Enjoyed the conversation.